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00:00Manhood, brought to you by Jameson, natural sources since 1922 and Racetrack.
00:12Thank you for joining us for another episode, or as I'm always saying, another conversation, manhood.
00:19It's really, really important, and I try as much as I remember to reiterate that it's not about a stature,
00:29it's not about your strength, it's not about a particular behavior, or whether you like sports or not.
00:35Being a man is about your morals, your moral compass, and how you're received by your peers.
00:41Today is really an exciting one, because the topic today is emotional regulation.
00:49Let me introduce the panel. First of all, we're all host here. I'm so delighted to have you all as normal.
00:54So, Johansson IODK, Behavior Change Consultant, you know that I'm getting that smooth, smooth like a river.
01:03Almost. Go ahead.
01:04Notice I said smooth like a river, not like a lake, you know, because it's in between.
01:08You know, you have your pockets of river, you know, when you're going to river at certain points that are still,
01:13and in other parts it could be turbulent, so there are moments, there are moments.
01:17But I'll still take the kudos. Another good friend, Riyad Emrit, no stranger to anyone, West Indies cricketer,
01:27you know, top guy, you know, all in all. I'm digging the kicks, I must say.
01:34Nile Royale, producer, and also a friend.
01:38So, it's a very tricky topic. It's a very tricky topic, and some of the conversation that we had in the lead-up
01:46before the red button was pressed and record started, we spoke about off the cuff,
01:56and of course, Johansson has a definition that he wants to talk about that he believes in.
02:00And I want to make sure that he expresses that before we get into the conversation,
02:06because we started to speak about something off-topic, but still part of the topic,
02:11because it's still emotion, and we started to talk about self-hate.
02:14So, I really want to also add that into the mix.
02:17But first of all, let's hear Johansson's definition of emotional regulation.
02:22That I was given that I believe in.
02:24Emotional regulation refers to the ability to effectively manage,
02:30and I like the word manage because there's a root man there,
02:34manage and controls one emotion in order to adapt to different situations
02:39and maintain psychological well-being.
02:42It involves understanding, expressing, and managing emotions in a healthy and constructive manner.
02:50Emotional regulation plays a crucial role in our overall mental health
02:56and interpersonal relationships.
03:00All right, that was a little mouthful, but for the most part, I do agree with this, right?
03:04Especially in terms of...
03:06I wasn't wrong, you believe in it.
03:09In terms of adapting to different situations and maintaining psychological well-being.
03:15Because a simple definition for mental health is the way we think, feel, and behave.
03:22Based on that, you could tell how mentally healthy you are or not.
03:27So, the ability to adapt, because many times things happen and we can't predict it.
03:32So, that kind of really show you how you would truly react in something.
03:38Because if we have time to calculate how we're reacting, you wouldn't get a true result
03:42and you wouldn't really see how mentally healthy you are.
03:45So, we could start there because as men, I mean humans, but as men,
03:50we are faced with many different situations that sometimes we don't plan for.
03:55And a lot is on our plate and a lot is on our shoulders.
03:58And if we go in terms of being, let's call it a, quote-unquote, traditional man,
04:02where we handle most of the things for our families, we have to be the rock.
04:08We have to be the person carrying things and sometimes not complain, not react.
04:13So, we could start with Robert.
04:15No, you talk before, you know, and let me start with Niall.
04:18Well, not to catch you, Robert, I'll let you jump back in.
04:22But I just wanted to be clear that in terms of regulation, that does not mean don't show emotion.
04:27I feel like we have to be very, very open when saying that because I find a lot of the times men choose to,
04:35you know, I don't want to say how I feel because this is how it's supposed to be.
04:41And I don't agree to that at all.
04:43I find that if it is I feel like crying in front of my girl or in front of my mother,
04:48I am going to let out tears.
04:50Right.
04:50And it's easy to worry about how you're being perceived by your peers,
05:00especially like your brethren.
05:01Like, you know, you can't cry in front of your brethren, but I am bawling if it is a Dazi case.
05:06Right.
05:06Because if it, as the definition said, it is for mental health.
05:15For me, letting it out is healthy.
05:19You understand?
05:20Right.
05:20That's how I look at it.
05:21Anytime you try to contain any type of emotion that you're feeling overwhelmed by,
05:27and you now have to put on a face to try to, you know, I guess to make other people feel comfortable,
05:35that's where you're moving into this space of unhealthiness, in my opinion.
05:39I agree.
05:40And, you know, you said it there where you said, is it for yourself or is it for someone else
05:48that you are not showing this emotion or showing a particular emotion?
05:52I was saying to you guys or maybe even Riyadh, we were talking about if, as a man or anyone,
05:58you are out of control.
06:00You know, they always say sometimes when you write a particular thing, it could be to your boss,
06:04it could be to a friend or whoever, you should wait maybe 24 hours before you actually send it.
06:09So you read it over, right?
06:11So what it's really trying to say is if you are out of control, you are giving up that control.
06:17And if you're giving up that control, that person or those persons are now in control towards your behavior
06:26and are then taking control because you are now out of control.
06:29So they're in control, you're out of control now.
06:33So you need, in order to take that control, you have to be very sure of the emotion that you want to give
06:39is the emotion you want.
06:40And even then, even if I decide, listen, I am consciously now going to be angry if that's what you want,
06:47you are still relinquishing that control because that might be the emotion that person wanted to evoke.
06:54You know, so we just, you know, on a real side note here, we spoke about, you know,
07:00you asked the question, why is it in certain cases, Trini, there's a self-hate.
07:05You know, Riyadh, you were talking about the fact that, you know,
07:09and I hope that you'd share it, the experiences in Afghanistan where now they're talking about,
07:14you know, that sportsmen are really light and that when you go abroad, light, light, you see,
07:19you see this, this love, but in Trinidad, it could be, boy, back of the line for you, boy.
07:26You know?
07:27Yeah, you know, it's, it's difficult sometimes, you know, you, as an athlete, a national athlete,
07:34you give your heart and soul for your country and you expect, you know, when you come back home,
07:38you'll be treated like, not, not a hero, but, you know, somebody that appreciate,
07:42who was appreciative and you don't really get that when you come back home most of the times,
07:47not all the times, but most of it, you know, and when we go out to other countries,
07:53even Caribbean countries, you know, we, we, we are loved so much more than your own country
08:00and, you know, sometimes it hurts to know that, you know, you're giving your heart and soul for your country
08:04and somebody outside appreciate you more.
08:07But, but why you feel at this though? Because you're also Trini, why, why you feel,
08:10you, I mean, you, you may behave the same way in another instance.
08:15I think we, as Trini, we love ourselves more than other people.
08:22I, I don't know if that is it, but, you know, sometimes we don't give,
08:27I don't know if respect is the word because you earn respect, you know.
08:32Um, I, I don't know what is the word, but, you know, we, we don't appreciate our own.
08:37Yeah.
08:37You know, it's like West Indies cricket, for example, you know, you might go out there
08:41and give your all, but then unless you win the entire competition or you're beaten aside
08:45like India that, that, that, you know, I, I would say I'm, I'm not, I'm not, I, I, you know,
08:50even though I was a sports, a sports presenter, I don't, I don't know cricket like so many
08:55other persons in the, in the, in the, in the, as in depth as they do.
08:59But what I would say is I'm a huge, people know me, know I'm a huge Manchester United
09:03fan.
09:03So win, lose or draw, I mightn't agree with the coach.
09:07I mightn't agree with if somebody plays or the performance, but I'm not going to stop
09:12supporting the side.
09:12I will still support the side regardless.
09:14What I might disagree with is whether your heart and soul was in it.
09:18So for example, if I'm watching West Indies cricket and you've given your heart and soul
09:22and not is about a big gold chain and about a party and all of these other things, then
09:28I'm still going to support you because I can't expect a side like, for example, India, when
09:33you do the research on, on, on, on that and you realize that I think they have to play
09:37first class cricket.
09:39It's a, it's mandatory to play first class cricket.
09:42And then from there, you could, you know, you, you, you, you play in other teams.
09:45So you're getting the best of the best.
09:47And if you're not performing, they have a thousand other people coming for your spot.
09:51Right.
09:52So therefore, you know, and, and, and so the point they're trying to make is that as a
09:56Trini or West Indian, that, that, that, that level of love could, could be, you know,
10:03we, we, we, and I don't want to say, you know, I'm probably going to be helped with
10:07cancel culture.
10:09You want to, I might be rambling.
10:11I might put myself in some, some, some, some, some hot water.
10:16You know, remember, there's a, there's a male talk show.
10:18We just talk.
10:19Get hot, get with the hot water.
10:22I'm putting up my hand because I'm helping you regulate your emotion.
10:26Right.
10:26Okay.
10:26Because I'm seeing what, what happened here.
10:29Right.
10:29So I'm coming back.
10:30I appreciate you, brother.
10:31Niall.
10:31Letters, brothers.
10:33You're saying regulation and he didn't want it to mean that we're keeping it inside.
10:37Right.
10:37So I'll first differentiate suppression versus regulation.
10:41Suppression is when you keep it inside and we're not expressing it.
10:44Regulating is that we're letting it out, but regulating in a controlled manner, in a thought
10:49out process.
10:49Okay.
10:49Not just letting it, not lashing out or not unleashing it.
10:53Yes.
10:53Venting, purging.
10:54Okay.
10:55Yes.
10:55And then as Riyad, when you're saying, you're saying sometimes you feel you hurt.
11:00Right.
11:00How do you manage that emotion of hurt?
11:02Because if it happened more than once, even when you go out to play now, right, sometimes
11:08you may even be thinking about the hurt.
11:10You know, well, I do know all of this and my country may not, not give me a certain.
11:14So how do you manage one emotions in general?
11:17Because I'm almost certain stepping out in front of a crowd, you must feel some kind of emotions.
11:21I don't know if the players from the other team probably might be telling you something.
11:25I don't know.
11:25But there are a lot of emotions that happen in that instance.
11:28How do you manage those emotions?
11:29So, you know, when you, like, when you now start, you know, you get a lot of butterflies.
11:34Even now you get butterflies.
11:35But, you know, as you, as you, as a career going, and, you know, I've been playing for
11:40I'm 14, I'm blessed to say that I'm playing for a while now.
11:44I'm still playing professionally.
11:45So I have the experience when I go out now, I, the crowd don't bother me at all.
11:51I, sometimes I don't even feel like it have people in the crowd.
11:55So that's, I get to that, that level now.
11:57I focus on what I have to do.
11:59So the crowd, yes, you enjoy it.
12:01So when you're playing in Trinidad, the Trinipos, you stand, the music, you enjoy it.
12:04You feed off that vibes.
12:05Right?
12:06But, you know, if somebody shouting something out in the stands, I don't hear that.
12:09Right.
12:10So my, I, that is blank out from me.
12:12I don't know how other people react to it, but me.
12:15I hate to lose.
12:16I support Manchester United, so I know the feeling.
12:18I know the feeling.
12:19I know the strongest brothers.
12:20You know, and, you know, it's, I hate to lose, but, you know, as you say, when you
12:26go there, my main thing is to win.
12:29You know, I forget about, you know, this one, look, you have blind in the bus route, when
12:33you come through, when you, when you come, when you come to the airport, you have to stand
12:38up in the long lines and people recognize you, that kind of thing.
12:40I forget all about that.
12:41You know, my main focus is to go out there and do my job and do it to the best that I
12:45can.
12:46And you see what you're saying there?
12:48I think is all men could testify.
12:51You see when they say you blank out certain things?
12:54Because I've heard women speak about their husbands like this in terms of, well, he blank, like
13:00he just blank mouth, he blank it out.
13:02Right?
13:02And I myself, I blank things up because I don't know if I've ever explained this on the show
13:07before, but the physiology of a male and a female brain different.
13:14We have less connections between the left and the right side of our brain.
13:17So in terms of our woman ability to quote unquote multitask or task switch, we have less
13:22of it.
13:22So that's why we have a quote unquote one track mind.
13:25And that's also for our survival because back in the day when you go out to hunt, we
13:30can't be thinking about your wife, your children and all these things as you get killed.
13:34We have to be thinking about going for the food and again, when they get the food, I think
13:37about reaching back home and carrying it.
13:40So understanding to how we men process things is important.
13:45Knowledge is power.
13:46The more we understand ourselves.
13:47So you see how you're able to regulate, not suppress, regulate your emotions.
13:52So you're aware, you're feeling the butterfly.
13:54So you're not denying it.
13:55But you know now, okay, if I listen to the people shouting, if I listen to this, it might
14:00affect me negatively.
14:01So I'm able to blank it out and then focus on the task at hand.
14:05Okay.
14:06Just to come back very quickly to, I actually don't think that is a case of Trinidadians
14:12not appreciating our athletes or our celebrities.
14:15I think deep down, we actually, we are fans.
14:19We love our stars.
14:21We love them, you know, but there's a pride that we have where we can't, I can't show
14:25too much love.
14:26Yeah.
14:27I cannot.
14:28I not can't.
14:28I don't want to.
14:29I don't want to.
14:30The pride is, in our mind, it's coming as can't.
14:34I cannot.
14:35I physically, let me give you a quick story.
14:37But you want that picture, though, eh?
14:38You want that picture.
14:40We want it, though, but we still might ask.
14:42So a quick story.
14:43A friend told me of he's seeing Bravo in the mall, right?
14:48He said, wait.
14:50Look, Bravo, boy.
14:52This man may have to do plenty for my country.
14:53And he's coming down the escalator, right?
14:56I wonder if he would stop to give me a picture, boy.
14:59Wait, boy.
14:59Tap your bridge and, dog, look, Bravo.
15:01That's the man looking, the man looking fresh, blah, blah.
15:03And as he slowly came closer to him, he just, and he is explaining it to me.
15:10And he said, I said, boy, ride out with you, yes?
15:15I'm like, so in my mind, I'm like, what happened?
15:18But he just, at the time when it mattered, when it was like, hey, I appreciate everything
15:25you do for me and for the country and blessings, he just could not give himself that moment to
15:31say that, no.
15:32A lot of times, too, Niall, you know, I would think that people, because it reminds me of
15:42the, I don't know if you recall, when KG was here, we were talking about Trinibad music.
15:46And we were speaking about, you know, the way, the connection with the music is that
15:52back in our day, when we're hearing Ninja Man and Beanie Man and things like that, they
15:56were speaking about areas that we weren't familiar with, Moby and things like that.
15:59But because now the Trinibad is, you know, it's actual areas that you know you're probably
16:04past on a regular basis, it brings it home.
16:08And so I'm saying in terms of seeing Dwayne Bravo or Brian Lara, you see them so regularly,
16:14or like you see them around, and you think, okay, you're Trinibad, this is our rock.
16:19Like, you don't have the same, you know, like, you know, he had 5 point something million
16:25followers, and he's big in India, as we were talking about, or Brian Lara, but you just
16:29feel it, it's almost like it's one way, I'm not giving you that.
16:33But I'm not saying, I'm not saying it's right.
16:38Remember talking about out of control and in control and your emotions.
16:42But at the same time, if you want a picture, now mind you, they probably appreciate that
16:47you don't want the picture, because you can imagine how many times, every other day being
16:51asked that.
16:52So they vex, they vex that the man taking a little stroll, coming down the stairs and
16:57somebody go, hey, the man, oh God, you know, I can take a fresh, I can do this, whatever
17:01the case may be.
17:02But short of the picture, the appreciation should still be there, though.
17:06You could find one, Bravo, something like that, yes.
17:09Blessings.
17:09Yes.
17:10But how you, you know, and I've seen it physically there for myself, Brian Lara, pull up by the
17:15doubles man, and a man, you hear a man Stoops in the line one time, like, he cannot get
17:20to the, he cannot get his doubles before me.
17:23And in my mind, I am like.
17:25Are they making sure?
17:27This is Brian Lara, what are you talking about?
17:30Don't you have other things to do?
17:32Yes.
17:32You know what I'm saying?
17:32And so, so again, it's back to the, the, the, the, the self-hate, because I feel like
17:39it's not, it's less about the issue that they have with whoever's the celebrity at hand.
17:45It's more about, I don't want them to feel that they're better than me.
17:49That issue with yourself.
17:50And I can't express that fully.
17:53Correct.
17:54So we want to talk about that, but you know, we had to go to a break.
17:56But before we go to the break, I want to ask, but Riyad, all the, all the thing about your
18:00zone, all these things and emotion, right?
18:03If you get a bong, sir, and it, and it hurt, and you release that cry in front of the public?
18:09No, you had to hold on.
18:10I was just saying, you can't, you can't show them.
18:12You can't show them.
18:13Remember the opponent, they coming at you again.
18:15So you had to, you know, let me go to the door at you.
18:17The cameras are on here as well.
18:18You don't want to show them the tears.
18:19As we talk about, we had to, we had to release the emotion.
18:22But we're taking a, we're taking a short break.
18:24And when we come back, we're talking more about those, those, those feelings that we don't
18:28let out.
18:28You know, they say, bad man, don't cry.
18:30So we had a, as, as per normal, we had a real good conversation during the break.
18:46A couple of my brothers, they had a little cry, you know, they, they released the emotion
18:51on, on, you know, some of it, excitement and happiness are the types of conversation that
18:56we're having here.
18:57And it's really important, you know, all, all, all joke aside, it's really important
19:01that we have these conversations because a lot of the issues that we face as men are
19:07also because we simply don't know how to release it and get, and, you know, and get in control.
19:13People think you're out of control if you cry, but you're actually in control.
19:17If you take note that, listen, I, I am, it's okay for me to cry and I'm not concerned with
19:23what somebody else is thinking.
19:24Mm-hmm.
19:24Because if I'm concerned with what someone else is thinking, they now have control.
19:30Facts.
19:30So let's, let's, let's, let's sort of kick off with two things.
19:35Kindness for weakness, where, whether it's your partner, whether it's your peers, where,
19:41or as you had mentioned, Riyad, um, in, in, in the earlier conversation where you said
19:46you wouldn't cry, forget that bouncer, because, you know, you don't want your opponents to see
19:51that. Now, that, that is assuming that people take kindness for weakness. And we also in
19:57this, in this particular segment want to talk about bad man, don't cry. You know, it is,
20:05it's a real premise. Whether you say a bad man or not is a premise for why men just don't
20:11show emotion in particular cases. Or you're told, stop crying.
20:14Mm-hmm. That's happened. That's, I feel that's happened a lot, especially in, in Trinidadian
20:19households. What are you crying for? You want me to give you something to cry about?
20:23If, if, if you have not heard that as a boy, something wrong. Mm-hmm. Something wrong in
20:29Trinidad.
20:30That was a mantra. A mantra. They give you something to cry for.
20:33And also then now we're growing up, we can't express, we know that something is now wrong
20:39because in our formative years, we were getting told that something is now wrong for crying
20:45when you're hurt, whether or not it's not physical, because hurt comes emotionally a lot of the
20:51times. Mm-hmm. And I don't know why parents at that time don't understand these kind of
20:56things. So is it, you know, so is it, is it that we are, we are liable to make that same
21:00mistake with our children?
21:02Are you saying that? I, I, I keep telling myself that we're crying for a shimmed boy or something
21:07we're crying for. You know what I mean? So you, you ain't gonna break out at one point,
21:12you know, you, you don't watch a movie, you know, and sort of tear up.
21:15Yeah, yeah. It's happened, it's happened, it's happened to me. But like, I, me, I different
21:19from, I would never show my emotions in front of my family. I would walk away. And that's
21:26just me. Because I have three sisters, my mom, just me and my dad, you know. Um, I, as you
21:33know, I delimited a situation now and now I don't, I don't ever, ever, even with my
21:37wife, you know, I would, I turn away, I would go to the bathroom, you know.
21:41But we spoke about that. Is that, is that because like I was sharing with you with my
21:45dad, even, even when I was, you know, even at the funeral, the, there was a part of me
21:52that didn't want to show emotion. Yes. Yes. Admittedly, because of the presence that was
21:58out there, was being videoed, et cetera. But mostly because I wanted to hold strong
22:03for my, for my family, for my mom. I needed to be there as that pillar because I knew if
22:08I gave into that, she was already, she was already crumbling. She was already falling
22:13apart and I needed to have, you know, be that, that pillar there for her. Um, but is, is
22:19that, is that similar to why, why you're not showing it or just bad man? Like I, I not
22:24grind in general. Me, me in, on a whole, I don't really show my emotions in front of
22:29people. You know, I hold it in and, you know, only on the cricket field. Why? Why?
22:33I don't know if it's probably a shame, you know, I, I, I don't know. I can't tell, I
22:40can't say. I know you don't have enough time to go into a full therapy session, right?
22:44Yeah, yeah. This is, this is manhood. This is manhood. Why? The, I asked why, because
22:49many times we do things, and actually yesterday I had a little talk on this with
22:53some youths. Anytime we do something and we don't know why, that's problems for
22:57us. Because that means we're automating. We're going on autopilot and we're not
23:01conscious of what's going on now. So I know we might delve into it now, but I
23:06say even to think about it, why exactly? Now I ain't saying you're wrong or you're
23:09right to know, but the understanding why is important. Because even to regulate our
23:16emotions, we had to even understand why we're doing what we're doing or how.
23:20Because I hear any different things and I'm realizing as a man, right, is a real
23:25balancing act we had to do in terms of our emotions or not. Because the, the
23:29psychologist, Jordan Peterson said, each man, the aim should be to be the
23:35strongest person in the room when your parents die. And he say, wherever path
23:39leads you to death, to death is important. And I thought about that and I was
23:44listening to what you're saying. And even when you see the situations, you're
23:46father, right? That could take different forms. That could take the form of
23:50somebody crying or it could take the form of somebody staying as stoic as, as
23:54possible. So understanding to the why, what going on, because I think each man
24:00would be able to know exactly what going on inside of them. And if you're
24:04unaware, that's where some of the practice come in, because even you telling
24:08your son, telling your son, we're, we're crying for, but I realize even
24:13listening, there's a dissonance that sometimes happens with our young boys
24:16because in one end, we tell them, do whatever you want, be free, right? I just
24:21given a quick example. If a, if a little boy, his son want to pee, you'll let him
24:26pee wherever now, right? So he don't learn a certain degree of control. But if he
24:29expresses emotions openly, we tell him nah. So the physicality of things, we get to
24:35express as boys. We learn the teacher, go and run, go and do something. Just, just let it
24:39out in terms of physicality, but we are, we tend to be suppressed when it comes
24:44emotionally. So that in itself could have a dissonance. So I grew up now thinking,
24:48well, maybe I could do whatever I want physically, but emotionally I have to stay
24:53a bit stunted.
24:55I, I, I, I, I embrace that. Um, but I'm still like, when you say you, you, you, you know,
25:03in, in, in that emotion, you, you, you don't know why, um, is it, is it that you, you ask
25:11yourself maybe sometimes, I wish I would show more emotion. I wish I would cry or, or you,
25:16or you're sort of happy. And I, and I'll tell you one of the reasons why I'm asking.
25:20I saw, I saw my, um, my little sister who I'm very proud of, like through that whole
25:25process with dad, she held so strong that, that, you know, the, the crying that I would
25:32have seen would have, you know, what, you know, would have been sort of, you know,
25:35when she went away into her bedroom or whatever, and I would come out and there
25:39were maybe some, some, some signs that she was, she was, she was tearing up, but she
25:44held solid in public. Whereas for me, I would say that, um, I felt that I, I might've
25:51broken a tooth. I was clenching my jaw so hard to avoid, to avoid showing emotion.
25:57And I recall when I was, when I was given the call, I was actually in the middle of
26:01producing, um, directing, um, Spellbound and, um, got the call. You were there, Niall.
26:07And I, and I, and I left and I went to the hospital and of course he was on his last breath.
26:12And we, we, we spoke about this before about regret and, and being, being open and showing
26:17that emotion and letting your dad know how you feel about him while he's alive and allowing
26:24him to be able to tell you. And I remember during that period, you know, spending so long
26:30in trying to, to, to allow him, you know, to, to, to allow him more life. Um, that at
26:35that point on his last, when I realized that, you know, they say that the hearing is the
26:39last thing to go, um, that he could hear me. I heard, you know, my mom, my sisters, all
26:44of them saying, it's okay. It's okay. You can go. I couldn't bring myself to it at that
26:48point. And when I did, even with the nurses around, it just like a deluge, like it just
26:54overcame me. Like there was just, you know, I could, I could have broken all my
26:59teeth. It didn't stop the, that, that, that, that, that type of feeling. And I gave
27:05into it at that particular point, because at that point it was just zoning to the
27:09fact that this is my dad and I'm now going to tell him the words that I didn't, I
27:13thought I'd never have to say, which was it's okay to go. Cause I was feeling that
27:18this man, you know, you're leaving me. I'm a child again, even at 48. I'm like, how, how
27:24you go, how you will leave me. And I'm now releasing him to do that, not
27:28understanding what that was. And it came out. So I'm saying that, but I, but
27:32again, even during the whole process, all the week, all the visits, I was just
27:37clenching my jaw because I didn't want to cry. And as you mentioned, but it's
27:41supposed to be okay. Like who told us, like how you said, you don't know where it
27:46comes from. Who told us that it's not okay. Our parents. But where did, where did
27:51they learn from their parents? My sister, my big sister, if I, like when I
27:56now started to travel and I go to hug her, she tears, cry. So any little thing, she
28:02in front of everybody, you know, she would cry. My next two sisters, they, they
28:06similar, but they're not as bad as her. So they would tear up and.
28:09You see what you're saying, it's not as bad as her.
28:11Yeah, not as bad as her. She real bad. You know what I mean? She, as soon as you say
28:15you're leaving, she. But me now, I, I, I don't like people to see me tearing up. That's
28:21just me. I don't like that. You know, I feel less of a man when, when people see me
28:26tear up. So even.
28:28But where we learn that from Riyadh? Where do we learn that, you know, because we come
28:33back to the second one. We talk about bad man don't cry. But what about mistaken kindness
28:37for weakness? Do you think that if you cry, somebody would think, like you said.
28:40You feel weak. You feel weak. That would make sense. Well, let me challenge the, let me
28:45challenge that one part of not crying is strength, right? So I feel that a lot of
28:50times, especially in a moment where someone passed and it is natural to cry. I think
28:55that a lot of times the strength is really giving people permission that they could
28:59also cry. So I felt like had you unclench your teeth and show that, you know, even a
29:06man of my stature could, you know, immerse myself in this emotion that could now, that
29:11would have a ripple effect. And yes, you very well know that everybody else would have
29:16been crying the minute that you started, but you would have been the ringleader in
29:20saying that, hey, I am strong enough to let go of my feelings. And I think that everybody
29:27else should follow suit, so to speak, because a lot of times it's always been waiting for you
29:32not being a patriarch in your family to be like, you know what, guys is okay. And that's
29:38where true strength for me comes in. At least that's how I interpret it. Because I, again,
29:43back to, I was always told, boys shouldn't cry. And I was like, yo, I'm not going through
29:48that. Now, but to go back into quickly about bad man don't cry, right? A lot of times,
29:56especially in relationships, women, and I'm not saying all women, tend to use our weakness
30:04as a tool to hurt us later on.
30:07We, we, I only continue there because we come into that.
30:12Okay.
30:13That's a whole, yeah, you're ready to rock with that one, right? You know, we, we coming
30:18back to that, to, to, to that, but I just want to say that just, just in your earlier
30:23point about releasing it, one of the most popular memes in the world is, is what? If
30:30anybody could take a guess. One of the most used memes in the world is a picture of Michael
30:35Jordan crying, right? And it's used all over. I'm saying, think someone like Riyadh, you know,
30:43he busts down crying on, on the pitch, right? You would think that, you know, like, you
30:49know, I get hit and he's starting to, and he's starting to cry, right? That, as much as
30:54the emotion, they will, they will have maybe a couple of people that will be like, oh my
30:57God, empathize. But they have, they have many out there, total apathy. I'm not going
31:03to be, there's like, you don't treat, one thing treat is a real creative one. You know,
31:08as soon as it happened, yeah. As, as that, as that, before that game done. Before, before
31:14the tear hit, the grung. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, there's a set of reality, all, all
31:19kind of things. You know, what kind of, what kind of guy, Amazon warrior this man is, boy.
31:23You know what I'm saying? Which is a big deal. So, so you have to be, like, it's exactly,
31:29you know, you have to, it's, it's, I don't think that, for example, and if, if I broke
31:35down at that point, they are, it, like I said, it's being videoed, they're pictures,
31:40not that that is the thought that's going through my mind at the time, but I'm saying
31:43to you that they are persons that, after the fact, or even during, may have that, that,
31:47that moment, but then, you know, you grab a bridge and like, boy, you know, or you just
31:53ball up the place just so, you know what I'm saying? Or you're crying or whatever, you know?
31:57Maybe, maybe that's finding a robot because maybe part of, of being a man and, and keeping
32:03that emotion, that strength is being able, through the people making fun of you, you're
32:09still able to show that emotion. Because when I was thinking about Ronaldo, Cristiano Ronaldo,
32:14Cristiano Ronaldo just cry all the time, right? But, and they have memes on him, making him,
32:20making fun of him, but it's also, he get respect because of his passion. Because, because
32:25you know, well, I mean, we, we assume that he crying because of how much he feel for the
32:31aim, right? So I say in the same way, if we, or when we show an emotion, it is for us to
32:37stay strong or stay, stay true to ourselves, even through the making fun of it. Because
32:45the, the fact is we feeling it now. The fact is we, we do feel it. And I think it's because
32:51of the suppression that it sometimes comes out. He usually would diluge, right? It comes
32:57out in, in that. Because sometimes we get sad, it's one tear would have come out if we
33:01let it out, you know. But it is, after a while, it just tears, that one tear build up, build
33:05up, build up. And then we, we release it in that manner.
33:09But as you said, you said about, you spoke about strength there. So we need to take another
33:13break. The irony is we're coming back to Nile Rearing to go. Basically, we look at the
33:20show about women. Do like soft, man.
33:36We're back from the break. Manhood is the topic. Well, interesting topic here now. My boy
33:45is rearing for this topic. Women do like soft, man. Women do like soft, man. In more ways
33:54than one, by the way. But I felt, thank you for coming back, coming back like that. They
34:03don't. They, they, they don't. Well, at least the same way that men were trained not to express
34:10their emotions. Women have been trained to not want men who express their emotions,
34:16literally. Because I'm sure that in the household, sisters have seen their mother tell their son,
34:21their brother, don't cry. So why would a, why would that woman grow up to want a man who
34:26cry him?
34:28It's a, listen, when you say, when you say this, right? I mean, doing actual research,
34:34my own personal relationships, and even seeing clients, especially couples, because of this
34:41confusion. Remember, I was talking about the dissonance growing up with boys. That confusion,
34:45even women confused, because you're saying women wouldn't want a man to show emotion. But
34:50then a woman would say in the same breath, and again, anything from him, like he not feel
34:55anything. And then sometimes literally do things to elicit emotion from the man. And then when
35:01he expressed the emotion, what were you getting on so for? Right? So you understand.
35:06If I give you a cry baby in there.
35:08You understand the, the, I go to curse there, you know, the, the F top kind of type.
35:14That's right. Release it, release the emotion. If you want to curse, curse.
35:17Release the baby.
35:17You have a bleep.
35:18The F top kind of relationships we have because of this, whether, whether men should release,
35:24whether we shouldn't release. And I think the, the conclusion is, I'm going back to
35:29what we should regulate. We should regulate. We should be able to regulate our emotions.
35:34We should, we should let it out. And whether or not women trained, men trained that way,
35:40just like I was talking about Ronaldo just now, no matter what, Michael Jordan would
35:44be crying, no matter what, if you feel delighted. And that comes with, of course,
35:48understanding who you are as a man and being able to stand up. You know what I feel to cry.
35:53Yeah. Cry baby boy. Ting, ting, ting, ting, ting. All right. I will cry next time.
35:56I will cry louder. Just, just being able to be okay with whatever emotions you feel
36:02at that time.
36:04If you cry, if you cry next time, are you now doing it out of intent to make a point
36:10to, to regulate that, not necessarily that emotion, but that, that impression people have
36:19of you. So again, we're coming back to the fact that you are out of control because you're
36:23now giving control to someone because you're now concerned with what their impression is.
36:28Because if you, if, if crying is not in that particular instance, you may have let it out
36:33based on that passion. I mean, I have a different stance. I'm a, you know, I'm a, as I said,
36:38as Manchester United men, you know, that's where Cristiano Ronaldo first won his Balador.
36:42So, but at the same time, a lot of times it is not, his, his emotion is not necessarily
36:48always out of total passion in a positive way. It's, it's, it's, it's, it's a lot of
36:54self, you know, and, and, and his importance and what he wants to achieve and, and those
36:59different types of things. But that's a whole other conversation. But I'm saying that if
37:03it is that you're now saying, okay, well, I've cried now and I'm going to keep crying now
37:07so people, it becomes a thing. Then again, you're, you're. Well, no, to balance, too
37:12much anything. Well, balance, correct. We're going with regulation. Correct. Is that, I
37:17actually, I'll go to, I'll go to say, you know, maybe you should even do some of that
37:20because practicing it, you'll get better at it. Practicing, not necessarily crying.
37:26Practicing, releasing emotion. Practicing, regulating emotion. The more, the more you
37:30practice it, the better you'll get at it. So if it is, you know, realize, you know
37:34what, are two tears good enough for me? You understand that you're balanced. A ball
37:39every month, good for me, that is your balance. But instead of simply keeping it
37:44in, because I know for sure that's not healthy. For sure that's not healthy. So in
37:50terms of every man watching, everybody watching, practice. Practice releasing
37:56emotion. And again, we're using crier, but releasing emotion don't have to be
38:00crying. Forks. Releasing emotion could be going and take a run, you release
38:03something, right? And because we, we as men, physical, if, if you notice or pay
38:09attention to sometimes how men, we release emotions is based on your body
38:13movement. You would do something with your hands. You would feel your body do
38:17something. Even there, there are many men on the token and the emotion hit, you
38:21would see like, right? Because that's the energy moving in your body. So being aware
38:27aware of it is important. You see that with the prime minister, when you're ready to say
38:30something, you give me a little adjustment there, you know. And that's more a male thing
38:35than a female thing because one, it could be nature because of how we process things.
38:40Two, it could be nurture, how we were trained because we were trained not to emote like this,
38:44but to do something physically. So you would see people shaking the legs, doing something
38:50like that, maybe even biting it, but everybody might have their own little tick. So being
38:54aware of it is important and practice it, practice the regulation of it.
38:59Just a, just a touchback on you saying that you don't need to cry to show your emotions,
39:03right? And I felt, I just, I felt like you just talking to your partner about something
39:08that bothering you. Honestly. Most men don't. Most men, any, like we shoulder so much issues
39:16and drama in our life. And again, we want to seem like we protecting our peoples because
39:22I don't want them to worry. I go and be the man and I don't worry about it. But that's
39:27silliness to me at least, right? I like, yo, if I have a problem and I have my partner
39:33with me, she's supposed to be my, my other half who's supposed to help me solve whatever
39:37issues I go in through. What's the point of me not using my best and most available assets?
39:41I don't agree with the other half, but we'll go into another conversation.
39:44I mean, there's a balance in life and they have the male, the male side and the, and,
39:49and, and the female side, which brings the balance. So there is a half regardless.
39:53I just want to touch on only because I know you're talking about yin and yang and the,
39:57you know, the alpha and the omega and all these things, right? But if you read, if you read
40:01like, you know, Khalil Gibran, which I'm sure you know of, where he spoke about two people
40:05being, being whole. And what you do is instead of being a half, it means that you're missing
40:09something, whereas two persons need to come together as two holes in order to have another
40:15experience into, to, in terms of, to, to, to take it to another level. But we get very,
40:19um, yeah, philosophical and so on. We, we, we, we back to our women who like soft, man.
40:24So back to the, I have this greatest asset in my pocket here and men don't take this opportunity
40:30to really say how they feel about, about anything. I can't, you know, men just can't
40:36come to the game and be like, yo, baby, I'm not feeling X or this is how I've blah, blah,
40:41blah, blah, blah, blah. And, and actually use that opportunity that if you feel like crying,
40:46if the world was, you know, you had a, your boss bully up daddy, you know, cry about it,
40:52cry about it with your girl. You understand? And, but most men will feel that I don't want
40:57my guilt to see me in such a vulnerable space because she will, she wouldn't be as
41:02as I'd prefer her to be. You know, San Juan said, can I use the word?
41:09I'm sorry. I'm sorry. There was a moment there and Niall, Niall did Niall and took it to another,
41:16you know, and it is what it is. That's how I speak. And that's why sometimes women have
41:20me on the panel, right? But point is, is that, you know, we, that is always be at the back
41:24of our mind. And I feel that when, if that's the thought that you have, that is not the
41:30person that you're supposed to be with. Like, if that's not, if you're in that space that
41:34I am worried that she, you know, she don't, she, girl don't like soft man, then that's
41:41not the deal for you personally.
41:43I actually agree with you because I've been back and forth with this and even for, for years,
41:49you know, what a man's supposed to do in that situation. Is it, you're supposed to keep
41:52between, is it, is it a biological thing that when a woman see a cry, they automatically
41:57feel that something wrong with you. And I've heard actual people preach this, but I realized
42:04none of us perfect. So if you want to say what a healthy woman is or what a healthy man
42:09is, I don't know if any of us ever perfect in that sense. But if you as a man in your
42:13relationship feel that sometimes you cannot, or you're afraid to express something, some
42:19emotion, whatever it is, then something wrong. That, that's my bottom line. If you are
42:24afraid to do it, something wrong.
42:26And on both, and on both instances, do you, do you actually feel whether you cry, whether
42:30you watch a chick flick? I mean, cause I've had instances where, you know, I, I have, I
42:35have seen wifey, um, you know, tear up watching a show or something happens and you decide to
42:41tear up and we'll be, and, and so we're talking about men sometimes don't want to show emotion,
42:47but women also don't want to show that emotion because they sometimes, as, as we, we spoke
42:53about it in, um, you know, in, in, in, in, in certain instances where they, they, they,
42:58they're in survivor mode and they feel that they have to, if, if, um, in, in some of the
43:04other, you know, women that we've spoken to or had dialogue with to, to get some research
43:09for the show where even though you're with a partner, you, that woman, if that woman is
43:14not feeling that she's getting everything she needs to get from that man in terms of
43:18feel that strength, which could be the, this, you need a man crying and thinking, mistaking
43:22that kindness for weakness. And as a result of that, she's in survivor mode, like she has
43:27to take care of business. And if she's in seeking, taking care of business, as we spoke
43:32about, um, the reverse roles where women are feeling a sense of more masculine energy, again,
43:40another one conversation that we had on manhood, speaking about that masculine energy. So therefore
43:45they don't want to show their partner that they're breaking down and they hold it in. And
43:50as a result, you, you have two persons who are not showing that emotion who are here, who
43:57are listening, but not necessarily hearing part of the conversation and moving on. I remember
44:02a partner telling me, he, he eventually decided to tell his woman something, you know, had a long
44:06real, a real deep conversation with her for the first time, you know, they keep saying he doesn't
44:11communicate and he opened himself up. And he mentioned something about a woman that he spoke
44:18to in a bar. And that is all the woman. She stopped, she stopped hearing her.
44:23Wait, wait, wait, hold on. Let's back up here. This woman in the bar, and he was just like,
44:31really? Like, you're not even asking yourself the why? Why did I feel, what did you have
44:36to do with all of this? Well, that could be for the topic whether men and women could handle
44:41the truth? And, and, and that is one of the topics coming up, but I wanted to, I know we're,
44:47we're near to closing off this conversation here today. And, you know, we always say that
44:50manhood as an episode in terms of timing on TV and on digital finishes, but the conversation
44:56will always continue. And Ria, you know, um, you know, I'd like you to, to sort of give
45:01your, your closing thoughts. And, and one of those is, um, you know, basically how you said
45:08about not showing your partner or anybody that you, you, you cry. Um, but, but if they
45:14cry in front of you, what, what is that reaction in terms of that, that, that emotion and then
45:21your general thoughts on, on the conversation today?
45:23So, because I, I grew up with three sisters, I know, um, well, I shouldn't say, you know,
45:29what, you know, I kind of understand women emotions most of the time. One of the toughest
45:36period is when my wife was pregnant with our first child, you know, they go through
45:40those ups and downs with their hormones and, you know, she, one day we were driving home
45:46and, you know, I just touch her on her shoulder and she's like, you know, she, she lash out
45:52and you don't know how I feel in tears and I was like, why do you, you know what I mean?
45:58I just touch her, you know, I may, I like to make joke, you know, fun or wrong and, you
46:02know, I was like, are you shocked? You know, and then I knew it shown, you know, she, she
46:08was staying by her mom that time. She come with the car, open the door, went, she took
46:15her keys. So I thought that we vexed with each other and she was like, so you're not walking
46:19back out of my car. You know, you really, I was like, but you know what I mean? So
46:23I was like, I shock, I don't know what to do, but you know, it was the first child, you
46:29know, I started understanding, you know, what to go wrong, how would she behave, how would
46:33she behave, you know, but, you know, I can, I can go to my wife and tell her anything.
46:37She's that understanding, you know, although I don't, but I could, you know, and she would
46:42want me to come and tell her anything. I could cry in front of her because it had times,
46:47a couple of times that I did because of situation, you know, and, you know, she was very understanding
46:52and she would cry in front of me. So we have that kind of relationship, even though she
46:58want me to communicate more, but that's not me. You know, I kind of keep everything inside
47:03as you're saying. Why? But I don't know. You know, I guess, that's just me. I like my
47:07own space most of the times.
47:09So in Afghanistan during that situation, you didn't know, you know, no emotion. Come on,
47:14you know, it's only the four of us.
47:16I wasn't scared. I wasn't scared at all at that time because we were, the security
47:20was tops, you know, a hundred percent. It's only when the bomb went off, you know, and
47:25the whole place rock is like, you know, you only see these things in movies, but actually
47:29experience it and the way it's sung, the kaboom and the whole place had a shake and you
47:34see we get a earthquake here, but that was like a earthquake. You know, you seen a building
47:38with glass, they're shattering and coming out, you know, so it was, and she was pregnant
47:42at that time as well. So with that embrace, when you all saw each other, you know what
47:49to work? I'm trying to get to the point where you had that moment. I got in an accident two
47:54years ago in, in, um, in New York. And when she came to see me there, you know, we, a few
48:01tears and thing, you know, because, you know, I probably am living a second life. People say
48:04they live a second life, you know, the way it happened. So, you know, but yeah, but you
48:09know, this topic, I think, um, you know, is the first time I sit down with men and have
48:15this topic, discussing this kind of topic, you know, um, I could tell any national team,
48:20tell a man, he cry in front of the girl, he laugh at you. You know what I mean? That's
48:24how it is. You know, nobody want to shed tears in front of the other half and that kind of
48:28thing. So, you know, um, it's interesting, you know, it kind of opened up my eyes to what
48:34we should, well, not say should, but you know, what we should experience. And it's not a bad
48:39thing. It's not a good or bad thing. You know, it's just who we are. And we need to open
48:44up a little more as men. I think training men don't open up, you know, that kind of
48:49self-esteem, kind of pride, kind of thing. You know, I'm not saying I'm going to cry,
48:55you know, in front of me. I thought, I thought you were going to cry. I thought one was coming
49:00out there, you know, but what you're saying is very, is very apt. And I'm, you know, my,
49:05my point just to touch on that was simply to me to say that, that, you know, whether it
49:10be myself guilty of it or whether it's somebody else and you have a moment and you
49:14cry, the, the, the issue and the negativity is with me. The problem, the problem then
49:20is with me. It's, it's some sort of insecurity or issue that we have as men that we can look
49:24at other men and think that, hey, you know, you're soft or what kind of, what kind of, what
49:28kind of, what kind of, and all of these conversations that come out and, and that, that's what we
49:33need to change. I agree with you because your feelings are valid. That's the point. Your
49:41feelings are valid. Even if it highlights a weakness, quote unquote, or a shortcoming or
49:45something you have to work on, it's better to be highlighted as soon as possible so you
49:49could work on it. So keeping it inside. I have heard many men even went to the grave. Sometimes
49:55the ailing and the hurting, and instead of letting it out, right, excuse me, they keep
50:02it inside and even their children, I never know what daddy was thinking. Yeah. I never
50:07know what he was going through. And, and that, what we're holding back could actually help
50:12your son, your daughter, another generation, even a stranger, a stranger say a cry and that
50:19expression, do something positive for them. So I understand the prevailing sentiment about
50:24men, quote unquote, not supposed to show emotion, but we're here to do something different. That's
50:29why we're here, man, to learn something different, do something different and be better as men.
50:34Mm-hmm. Now, one, one, one statement to the ladies in particular. So looking to all the ladies
50:43at home right now, right, you all train your men to lie to you, literally. Every time a
50:50man comes to you and wants to tell you the truth and you use that opportunity to pay attention
50:58to the wrong things, use it against him later on, you know, make him feel small when he, when
51:06he, you know, being vulnerable, that is just a moment that he's going to register to lie to
51:12you in the future. So pay attention to that. Well said, well said. Um, I'm short for words,
51:19believe it or not. Um, just to say that to everyone, the strength is in being in control.
51:28And if being in control is releasing that emotion, when your body is saying, this is part of the
51:35process, whether it be of healing, whether it be a situation of happiness, whatever that emotion
51:41is, that is a strength. That's not a soft man. The soft man is the person who's out of control,
51:47who's holding in those feelings, who's more concerned with what somebody else is thinking.
51:54So just, just let that just to touch on, on what Niall said and what, what Riyadh has shared
51:59and what Johansson has shared. It's, you know, it's a really, really been a, another thought
52:04provoking, um, a very inspiring conversation. Again, I thank you, gents. Um, I love the fact
52:09that every time I sit down here, you know, I, I learn so much more, you know, and I, and I hope,
52:14I hope that everyone listening to, to manhood has, has taken something away, um, that we're all
52:20responsible and to, to, to just be in control of emotion. And if it's one thing you leave here with
52:28is to know that it's all care to crave.
52:41Manhood brought to you by Jameson, natural sources since 1922 and racetrack.