With Ameer Shamsu
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TVTranscript
00:00Manhood, brought to you in part by Reboot Sports Drink.
00:09So welcome to another conversation here on Manhood.
00:13Today's topic is, is aggression in our DNA?
00:17And that's as it pertains to males, of course, we're here on Manhood.
00:21So I'm going to get straight into it.
00:22To my right, Johanse IODK, behavior change consultant or specialist.
00:27To his right, we're really happy to have him, you know, short in his travels here today.
00:31And only his second Caribbean destination and his first time here in Trinidad and Tobago.
00:36We have Ymir Shamshu, also known and more popularly known as Black Man the Traveler.
00:43And to his right, the one and only Ken Simmons, media personality, top host for all the reggae artists then.
00:50And, you know, a man of a lot of experiences.
00:53I'm really glad that each of you have taken the time to be here because we always say that we're not speaking on behalf of all men.
01:02But we're speaking, we are few men speaking to all men, which is really important for us to put out there so that there's no backlash of all.
01:10That's not what I believe.
01:11You know, we're trying our best here to discuss all topics and to get a really in-depth understanding.
01:16And do as deep a dive as we can, especially with the science behind Johanse and his experiences, to have a better understanding of why we behave the way that we do.
01:29And one of the big things that are coming out as a result of one of the reasons why manhood even started in the first place as we speak about domestic violence is aggression in our DNA.
01:38You know, we see, you know, we see, you know, we see chest bumps, we see the way that we interact, we see when we go into certain areas with the community where they say, you know, even the women say it, if you don't beat me, you don't love me.
01:49It becomes almost a survival of the fittest.
01:52All of these things that are coming out and as much as even a fist bump is still a form of, you know, from fisty cuffs and boxing.
01:58All these are things that, you know, does it originate from being, you know, in a Neanderthal state where we are hunters?
02:06What, you know, is aggression part of who we are?
02:12I would start by saying, I don't particularly think men are aggressive, right?
02:20When I'm looking for it from a male point of view, I don't feel aggression from a fist bump, even from a chest bump, all of that real old school.
02:28I don't know anyone who is still a chest bump.
02:29Well, I was wondering, chest bump?
02:31Who chest bump in 2024?
02:33Right, but it was a thing.
02:36It was a thing.
02:38Right?
02:39American football is still...
02:41But even let's say how a male hug, because when men hug somebody, we hit each other very hard on your back, right?
02:47But I don't see it as aggression versus, I'll just say masculinity, because when I'm dealing with a woman or a child,
02:56let's say I'm giving them a hug, it would be a difference than if I'm dealing with my brother, right?
03:02And it's not that I intend to be aggressive to him versus...
03:08I never really thought about it before.
03:10So I'm putting thought to it now.
03:12Is I, me being a man and my masculinity, I'm expressing that towards him because let's just say he could take it.
03:21Right, I think that's the best way of going.
03:24Tell me your thoughts.
03:25So I don't necessarily agree with that totally in relation to the question that you asked, Robert, in terms of aggression being in our DNA.
03:35I think it has the potential.
03:37We all have the potential to be aggressive once we don't understand who we are as men.
03:45When anger is uncontrolled, we become aggressive.
03:50For me, aggressive is a derogatory term.
03:55It's offensive.
03:57When we're aggressive, we violate people's rights.
04:00And I think a man who is well-rounded, who understands his position, could be angry.
04:07And as the good book says, sin not.
04:09So we can express anger, our dislike.
04:12We can be forceful, but not aggressive.
04:16I have a problem with the word aggressive.
04:18Because when you talk about aggressive, you talk about violating someone's rights.
04:21And you can't be a true man if you are seeking to violate someone's rights.
04:26So yes, we have to be tough.
04:28We have to make harsh decisions, hard decisions.
04:31But I wouldn't say that we are aggressive by nature.
04:36It's within us.
04:36So the conversation is, Ken, and I take your point and I like your perspective.
04:42So it's a discussion.
04:44Is it in our DNA inherently?
04:46So even though we may start off with aggression by its dictionary meaning is one that may have a negative connotation.
04:53But I'm asking if the biology or the backing or the survival of men and how we behave now, now we take a form.
05:04In the same way, you know, I hate to use the N-word, right?
05:07But the same way the N-word is used in a way now that is a term of endearment in certain cases, you know?
05:13Now, the history of the word is still one that's negative.
05:17And I'm saying in the same way, aggression.
05:19These ways of us behaving, you know, like you go boy and beating you on your back and slapping you and your head.
05:27And you see all these forms of when someone does a good dunk or some, the more aggressive that's surrounding,
05:33or especially if someone scores a goal, things like that, it's a form of love.
05:38It's a form of camaraderie.
05:41But it's still aggressive in the way that...
05:46Nah, nah, I don't agree with that.
05:48Men are supposed to be hardcore.
05:50We can't be crybabies.
05:54Not to say that men cannot cry, obviously.
05:59A true man is able to express all his emotions.
06:02But I would not view it or term it as aggression that we are built that way, in my personal opinion.
06:12I don't think...
06:12Okay, this is just my opinion.
06:14I don't think men are built to be, you know, aggressive.
06:19But I think in general, as you were saying, Robert, you know, when you might meet your brother in the street,
06:24hey, what's going on?
06:24We physically, like, just...
06:26They might slap you on the wrist.
06:27They might slap your back.
06:28Like, so I think it's just different perspectives when it comes to, you know, being aggressive.
06:32I don't think it's built in our DNA.
06:34But I think also it will come with lack of education because there's a way to behave as a man.
06:38There's a way to treat a fellow brother.
06:40There's a way to treat a fellow sister.
06:42So I think it just...
06:43I think it might come to lack of education of how you was brought up, the way you move, the way you think,
06:48the people that surround you, your surroundings.
06:50Because, yes, in this day and age, in 2024, we can be aggressive by the way we speak,
06:56maybe by the way we act, by the way we move.
06:59And, yeah, that's just my opinion.
07:00So I know normally we discuss this later on and we do deeper dives into it,
07:05but I can't help but use the opportunity to segue or to do a deeper dive, rather,
07:10into something that you just said with regards to your experiences as Black Monday traveller
07:15in areas such as Pakistan and in Afghanistan, where you went in the heart of the Taliban,
07:21which is seen as some of the most, you know, by perception,
07:25because I'm sure they may not view themselves like that,
07:28or maybe a better understanding of that community may understand that they're either martyrs
07:33or they're a community that's just fighting for their own rights or survival,
07:36but it's perceived by the Western world that that's a very aggressive community.
07:42What was your experience?
07:44So, first time I went to Pakistan was in 2022, so almost two and a half years ago.
07:50I wasn't meant to go there.
07:51It wasn't planned, to be honest with you.
07:54So, basically, I just got married, long-distance relationship.
07:58So I went there and my friend said to me, listen, you've got to go to Pakistan.
08:01And I'm like, what am I doing there?
08:03I'm a black man going to Pakistan.
08:05It just doesn't make sense.
08:06So he's like, listen, go to Pakistan and just go there, film,
08:11and share your experience as a black man.
08:13So I thought, okay, you know what?
08:14Let me type black people in Pakistan.
08:15Nothing came up.
08:16Apart from one video, there's actually black Pakistanis that live in Pakistan,
08:21and they originally come from East Africa during the slave trade.
08:24So I thought, okay, you know what?
08:25Maybe I can connect and resonate with that.
08:28So I went there, booked a flight, booked a one-way flight, got there,
08:31and it was the most awkward trip I had in my life.
08:33I was the only black person on the flight.
08:35Everyone just stared at me.
08:36As soon as I landed, it was just like, everyone's looking at me like I'm an alien,
08:39like I'm a football star.
08:40But the inception I had in Pakistan was it's aggressive, it's dangerous, you know, terrorism.
08:45It's not safe for a Western foreigner.
08:47But as soon as I landed and the love of hospitality that they gave me, it was crazy.
08:54It was crazy.
08:55But walking in the streets in Pakistan, I felt safe.
08:58Some moments could be a bit dangerous, a bit skeptical,
09:01because obviously there's certain situations that happened.
09:04But as a black man going to that country,
09:06I think it was one of the best decisions that I made,
09:08because at the same time, I educated myself,
09:10and I educated the people watching the video.
09:12So I showed people my experience going there as a black man.
09:16Afghanistan's a different kettle of fish.
09:17So you told yourself at that point, it's one of the best decisions you ever made.
09:20One of the best decisions.
09:21And then you decided then to say, okay, well, let me try my luck here,
09:24and make probably another decision that might work out in the same way,
09:28and let me go to Afghanistan.
09:30Okay.
09:30Now, that was a crazy situation.
09:33And now, Afghanistan, 90% of people are genuine.
09:38You do get the 10% that are going to be aggressive.
09:40They're going to be physically aggressive towards you.
09:42They might pull you by the arm.
09:43They might push you, because they live a different type of lifestyle over there.
09:48So I went there with the same mentality as well.
09:51Let me go there, experience it as a black man.
09:54Now, I was scared, to be honest with you.
09:55As a man, I was scared, because Afghanistan has got a lot of...
09:58Sorry, did you go there scared, or is it that when you reached there
10:01that your experience wasn't the same as in Pakistan,
10:04that you're now scared because of certain things that have happened?
10:07I went there with a scared mentality, only because I went there,
10:10the Taliban took over the country.
10:12So I went there in a moment where it's the Taliban took over the country,
10:15there's no Western governments over there.
10:17So if you go there, your embassy is not going to help you.
10:19Anything happens to me, I'm in very big trouble.
10:22And at the same time, it's the Taliban we're talking about.
10:24These are the people that fought the Americans for 20 years,
10:26the Russians for 20 years.
10:27So they've had 40 years of war, and there's not been no peace and stability.
10:31So me as a black man, 6'2 black man, piercing, weird buntunots,
10:35they're thinking, what's this guy doing there?
10:37So as soon as I landed, it was very scary.
10:40I'll be straightforward.
10:41Very scary.
10:42They looked very aggressive.
10:43Just no one's smiling.
10:45Everyone's looking sad and angry.
10:47So I thought, okay.
10:48So I said, hey, hello.
10:50That still wasn't working.
10:51And I thought, okay, wow, it's going to be a long two weeks.
10:54But as soon as I walked in the streets, I was receiving a lot of love.
10:59There was one video, the one that you mentioned behind cameras.
11:02I was with a female called Wanduin Emma.
11:04She's like an old lady, old Scottish white lady,
11:07but she's full of energy, so energetic.
11:10She's like a daredevil.
11:12She will take risks.
11:13So we went to a park in Kabul where there's like the biggest flag
11:17and it's just full of Taliban soldiers, literally thousands of them.
11:22The video's on YouTube.
11:23I think that's the one that you saw.
11:24And then as soon as we go in there, I was scared
11:26because we are two foreigners.
11:28They've never seen people like us before.
11:29The only people, the only foreigners that they've seen
11:31were probably American and UK soldiers.
11:34So as soon as we got there, it was a bit scary.
11:36It was a bit aggressive.
11:38There was moments I had to stop filming and continue to film.
11:40But it was a time of my life that it was very educational.
11:46That's the best way to describe it.
11:48And so what, before, I know we need to go to a break,
11:51but before we go to the break, what was then your experience?
11:55You mentioned no one is smiling.
11:57No one is smiling.
11:57And at that point, so the levels of aggression,
12:00was that really after your trip?
12:02Was it really aggression or was it just their forms of interaction
12:08that is then perceived as aggression?
12:10I think it was their forms of interaction
12:12because I come from a different culture.
12:14They come from a different culture.
12:15And I don't think most of the Taliban are built aggressive.
12:19A lot of them come from the village.
12:20So a lot of people don't know that.
12:21A lot of them have never seen a white man before.
12:23A lot of them have never seen a black man before.
12:25So yeah, some of them are built with aggression
12:27because obviously the way they were taught, you know,
12:29by whoever educated them, whatever.
12:31But the majority of the Taliban are not going to be aggressive towards you
12:35unless you do something wrong towards them.
12:37So that's when the aggressionness will, you know, come out.
12:41Okay.
12:42I like how you ask about the facial reactions, right?
12:47Because sometimes because somebody's face is serious.
12:51Yes.
12:52No, let me not even say serious.
12:53Because they're not smiling, it is perceived as aggressive.
12:56I agree.
12:57And most men, I would say, when we're not smiling,
13:01we may not see, may not look friendly according to somebody's paradigm.
13:06So, and the thing is, men and women are obviously built differently.
13:11I agree.
13:11And depending on the culture from, because I think Trinidad is a more down-to-earth,
13:17smiling, kind of happy-go-lucky culture.
13:20So if there's a man in Trinidad who doesn't smile,
13:24we all may have a problem with him and think he is aggressive when he's not.
13:27But why is that?
13:28Why is that?
13:28Well, that in itself is a question that we could take to the break.
13:35Okay.
13:36And, you know, Trinidad, we have this saying to answer part of your question.
13:40So why you can't answer the question?
13:41Because we also have something that we say in Trinidad,
13:45bad man, don't smile.
13:47Right?
13:47And there's another, there's a further part to that, you know,
13:50which answers your question as well.
13:51You know, all skin, teeth, they smile.
13:53Right.
13:53You know, because sometimes somebody smiles at you, but they can be aggressive.
13:55And if you smile as much as a man, we're not taken seriously.
13:59But we have to go to a break.
14:01All right.
14:01Yeah.
14:01So we go on to all of that after the break.
14:03And, you know, as we say, what we discuss at the break,
14:06we discuss when we come back.
14:18Welcome back to manhood.
14:19And I'm ensuring not to smile because I want to be serious.
14:24He says with a smile.
14:25He can't take a smile.
14:26He says you're not smiling.
14:27He's smiling.
14:28Right, yeah.
14:29As we're discussing, is anger, is aggression within our DNA as men.
14:35And before the break, we were discussing with Ken in terms of too much smiling.
14:42Because first, if a man don't smile, he could be considered too serious.
14:48If a man smiled too much, he might be taken seriously.
14:51So how do we decide exactly how much we should smile?
14:55Well, you have to take into consideration the environment, what is taking place.
15:00Generally, your countenance is supposed to be welcoming, even though that you're unaware of it.
15:07It speaks a lot about what is going on internally if you look at somebody when they're not even recognizing that somebody is looking at them.
15:14So for those of you that are viewing and listening, watch a man, we're talking about men here, watch a man when he is not aware that he is being observed and watch his countenance.
15:28It says a lot of what is going on with him internally.
15:32Now, you can't be practically, you can't be walking around smiling like guys smiling all over the place because you wouldn't be taken seriously.
15:41I agree.
15:41Now, I believe that men should be firm, assertive.
15:46They should have, in some cases, opinionated.
15:50Know what you want.
15:51There are times that we don't know exactly what we should do, but then we would stand by the decision that we make.
15:58We should be forceful.
16:00We should be hardcore.
16:02We should express our emotions, even though that emotions may be one that puts us in a vulnerable state.
16:09But I want to hold firm to my original position and stance that it is not within our DNA to be aggressive.
16:16And the only time that anyone, but we're talking about men, that are aggressive is because it is not understanding fully who you are and its root is in fear.
16:29Because you feel the need to control, you feel the need to be aggressive and offensive.
16:35We can be firm, we can be hardcore.
16:37We talked about bong sin and even the handshake.
16:42When I'm shaking a next man's hand, it's a firm handshake.
16:47I don't want to give him a hand and my hand, you know.
16:50Halfway twist like, you know.
16:52I have no strength in the wrist.
16:53Or you're coming over like this and you give him a hand.
16:56No, no, no.
16:57What's the point of that?
16:58It speaks a lot.
16:59Correct.
16:59When I shake it, no, I have been in situations where I shook another gentleman's hand and it's like, it's like we're going squeeze hand, you know, squeeze hand competition.
17:08And you're looking at each other.
17:09Yeah.
17:10But why do we do that?
17:10But why do we do that?
17:11Because, again.
17:11No, but it's an assertion of power.
17:13Yes.
17:13So even presidents will tell you that when they're shaking their hand, not only is a firm grip to get inside of there, but it's who can place their hand on the other one shoulder is a dominant.
17:22It's a show of force and a show of power.
17:25Now, do you think we have to do that?
17:27Do you think it's mandatory?
17:29Do you think that we are built in just to show?
17:30I think we always want to be the alpha.
17:33There's always a need one to be the alpha.
17:35You know, in Trinidad again, Trinidad and Tobago, I mean, we have another saying, you know, two man crab can live in the same hole, right?
17:44So there's always that need to be the alpha to be that dominant person.
17:48Now, I disagree.
17:49Hang on, hang on.
17:50No, but you could disagree.
17:52That's what the show is about.
17:54But there is, we're talking about certain communities where survivally fittest is a must.
17:59And you have women who have come in documentaries that we've done, who've come and say, if they don't beat me, they don't love me.
18:08You know, and that is seen as part of, you know, that aggression, that way of being is seen as being the top pick in a particular environment.
18:20So whether you agree or disagree.
18:21That thinking about if they don't beat me, they don't love me is a learnt behavior because of something what happened in their childhood.
18:29So they adopt that principle.
18:31I agree with that too.
18:31They adopt that principle that that is how some male figure in their life, whether they father or a significant other, telling them they love them and beating.
18:41And with the love, with the saying, I love you, came some hand and some cough and kick.
18:47So I don't know.
18:48No, but it goes even further, Ken.
18:49It's not just the thinking.
18:51It's also that you, as a man, could get cheated on or left as a result of not exhibiting certain learned behaviors or not.
19:01And nobody, we're certainly not condoning.
19:02Like if I don't beat my woman?
19:03We're not condoning it in any particular, but again, it might be something that I give.
19:08I have an explanation for that.
19:10And then I'll say what I was disagreeing with is that some women, and we go in some, not all, and based on how they grew up too, and most times it is born out of some kind of trauma, is the attention.
19:21So if the man doesn't get angry enough, it means that he probably don't love me.
19:26He don't want to give me that amount of attention.
19:29Is that coming from a woman's perspective?
19:30Yes.
19:31Okay.
19:31Yes, and I say he's born out of trauma because, I mean, I can't see how that will be healthy, that if a man don't beat me, abuse me, then it doesn't mean he loves me.
19:41But I've had situations, I've had clients also, women who experience trauma, and sometimes they know cognitively, you can say, I really don't want to be abused.
19:51But somehow if I don't get that from him, that aggression, it'll feel like he really loves me, or he will take the time to give me that amount of attention.
20:01But then that's living in fear, real and true.
20:06You know what I mean?
20:06Because, I mean, I don't think a man should be able to, like, beat his woman and show dominance and show that, listen, I'm in power.
20:13Absolutely not.
20:13That's aggressive.
20:14Of course.
20:14But then, I think it all comes down to the state of mind.
20:18If the relationship is healthy, is it healthy?
20:20If it's not healthy, you know what I mean?
20:22Because I don't think men should have the power to be aggressive towards another guy, to be aggressive towards a female.
20:28And the way you find a lot of males, I wouldn't say men, a lot of males are aggressive towards their significant other.
20:36I agree.
20:36It's because of you trying to establish your manhood or your masculinity.
20:43You trying to figure out yourself, so you feel the need to hurt, to violate somebody else.
20:49It's insecurities.
20:50It's insecurities.
20:51So, whether it's women, whether you're violating someone by taking what does not belong to you, a lot of young men who are aggressive and we want to know what is taking place, it is rooted on not knowing thyself.
21:06It's also, it's also can, you know, it's also can based on education, education levels as well.
21:12Because what you find is in certain areas where someone says you're disrespecting me, if you have a conversation, say you're using highfalutin words, like you're using a word like idiosyncratic or quasi-moronic or you're using these different types of words.
21:24You know, sometimes simplicity is the best form of communication.
21:28People who may not understand, may feel, not understand what you're really trying to tell them and may take offense by it and then as a result of that, react in an aggressive way.
21:38And further to that, because I still want to find out what is it you disagree on, I also want to say that we are going, a lot of people, a lot of men, and I want to hear from Ymir and Black Mandy Traveler with regards to that.
21:54We're going around with anger.
21:56Everybody's just angry about something, you know, whether it be in your car.
21:59It just seems like we're just, you know, two seconds away from somebody tripping off with regards to whether you're physically abusive, whether you're verbally abusive, whether you're mentally thinking something against someone, that we're just walking around with all of this pent-up anger.
22:15And I want to come back to when I say is aggression in our DNA, doesn't necessarily mean that we're going down a road of it being all negative because some of the best athletes in the world have levels of aggression that they tap into that make them superior in what they do.
22:34That's not a negative in terms of their mindset and the way that they do things.
22:38And so we can't, you know, it's like the word compromise sometimes.
22:42The word is always used as, you know, as a negative sometimes.
22:45But what is the dictionary meaning?
22:47What do we mean entirely by aggression?
22:50That's a good point because I think sometimes with aggression, the word aggression, and because it's humans we're dealing with, there's some sort of perception because the dictionary meaning of the word aggression has the intent to hurt.
23:06So even athletes, when they tap into that quote-unquote aggression, it may not be aggression, it may be assertion.
23:13And Ken, you alluded to it.
23:15A man must be, what you were saying, a man must be assertive.
23:18And that is what I agree with.
23:20I remember doing a workshop for a company on communication and we used the cell phone as an example.
23:27So the cell phone has silent, right?
23:30It has mid-level and then it has loud.
23:34And so silent is passive.
23:37Mid-level is assertive.
23:39And the loudest is aggressive.
23:42And if someone is aggressive being over the top, over the intent to hurt, then that is where the issue is.
23:49But if you are sure of what you want, so let's use an athlete, no matter what the odds, I am going to succeed on this.
23:55I am pulling everything that I have and surpass the barriers.
23:59That's not necessarily aggression.
24:01That's assertion.
24:02And that's what I was saying, what I disagree with because Ken and Robert, you were saying that when a man shakes hands and puts the power into it, that it's assertive to be an alpha.
24:14And I was saying it may not be that.
24:17It's more like, for me, it's a sign of respect because I see you as a man that I respect in whatever field you are in.
24:26Even if it's, let's say you're in a field, let's use IT, right?
24:30IT doesn't need any physical aggression, but you are, I respect you as top of your field in IT.
24:37I will give you assertive handshake because I respect you.
24:41It's not necessarily that I'm trying to assert any dominance over you.
24:44So again, we are not seeing in all instances.
24:47It wouldn't be in all.
24:48It's that.
24:49It's not in all instances.
24:49But there are certainly other instances where you're shaking hands and it is a, hey, you know, I'm trying to warn up on you.
24:55No, it's a manly thing to do.
24:57So aggression by the dictionary meaning, because we need to make sure that we're putting that out there.
25:02There is no two sides to the same coin.
25:05It's one meaning, which is feelings of anger or antipathy resulting in hostile or violent behavior, readiness to attack or confront.
25:14So there's only one meaning to it.
25:17But again, as a result of, as we progress, we, you know, using maybe the adjective, et cetera, like an aggressive or verb, it comes down to, it can be a positive as we see with regard to that.
25:31The only way that I will, I will subscribe aggressive with me is something intangible towards my goal, towards, towards a particular, a definite goal.
25:43I, I'm, I'm pursuing it.
25:45I know, I know what I want.
25:47Aggressively.
25:47Right.
25:48Aggressively towards that.
25:49But, but without violating the rights of other people.
25:53Correct.
25:54So if you're using it like in a training, so you can say, hey, I'm going to attack those weights aggressively.
25:58Yeah.
25:58I'm going to be aggressive with that.
26:00It's a good thing.
26:01And we, we, as men think that, uh, uh, aggressive, sometimes when, when, when we seek to, to be calm and still, do you know the most powerful position as a man?
26:13Yeah.
26:13Is to express a level of, of calmness, especially when the storm is raging.
26:19Restraint, yeah.
26:19That, that shows true strength.
26:21And we believe that being, being aggressive and having a strong hand on something that, that we will make the wheels turn.
26:30But sometimes it does the opposite.
26:32So we, as men have to know the difference.
26:34So that is why I reiterate my point that it is not within our DNA.
26:40So Ken, point taken, point taken, because I know you want, you know, so, so, so, so, so from, so to everybody, we are not seeing a great, we are, it's a discussion.
26:49Right.
26:49Is, is aggression in our DNA?
26:52So I think we, I think we, I mean, there's still no proven sign.
26:55This is just our opinion.
26:57Right.
26:57That it is not in our DNA.
26:58It still doesn't mean that they aren't, you know, as we go into the history of, of, of the slave trade in Trinidad and Tobago, right.
27:05Versus other, other areas in the Caribbean.
27:08It shows that, you know, certain, depends on the tribe or the area of Africa that, that, that, that, that we've come from.
27:15I think, you know, slaves in Trinidad and Tobago came from, you know, our history is based on Ghana, which is a more, you know, a, a, a, a, a karma, um, teachers, philosophers, teachers, philosophers.
27:27So there is, there is something in there with regards to DNA, but it mightn't be that we, you know, a full on, the word aggressive might be a bit harsh in terms of topic.
27:38But I really want us to kind of move on to, you know, the other aspects of that as to the anger.
27:45And, you know, a lot of times people say, oh, it's Caribbean men or whatever.
27:47It's a Trini thing.
27:49You've had a lot of experience in traveling the world.
27:52Yeah.
27:52Interacting with, um, with, with a lot of cultures, with a lot of personalities, with men.
27:57Yeah.
27:57Um, what, what, what's your thoughts and what are your, you know, initial thoughts?
28:01You haven't been here long, but, you know.
28:03I mean, I've had some, I've had some experiences around the world.
28:06Um, the country where I found to be more aggressive and cold was Estonia.
28:11That's a country in, um, in Europe, not far from Russia.
28:14And, um, they were just, no one was happy.
28:17Literally.
28:18I think it's just maybe because of the weather or maybe just the surroundings.
28:20But you say, hey, hello, how, how are you?
28:22How was your day?
28:23They're just, everyone's just not smiling.
28:24Everyone's just like still face.
28:27And was it towards you or that was their general interaction?
28:29You know what, um, now towards other people, they seem to be okay.
28:33Towards me, it was a bit different.
28:35Maybe it might be a skin color thing.
28:37I don't know.
28:37I don't know.
28:38But, um, that's just from my experience.
28:41Now I've been to countries where there's been war.
28:44I've been to countries where there's been poverty, like Pakistan, Afghanistan.
28:48Um, I've been to Somalia, Syria, Iraq, the list goes on.
28:51So I've been to countries where a lot of people are going to be aggressive and angry,
28:56but that is just due to the circumstances that they're in because of, you know,
29:01maybe war or whatever, X, Y, and Z.
29:04But it doesn't make every single person's going to be aggressive or every single person's
29:07going to be angry.
29:08But I think it's just dependent on the person's experience.
29:11So your, your friends or you've done a lot of, um, collabs or you've interacted with,
29:17uh, Christopher Hughes.
29:18Yeah.
29:18You know, also known as Christmas-less.
29:20Christmas-less, yeah.
29:20Um, you don't, you don't follow the same path that he does in terms of, you know,
29:24what he looks into when he goes to countries from a journalistic perspective.
29:28Yeah.
29:28You're more from a travel perspective.
29:30Correct.
29:30But the interactions you've had with him.
29:32Yes.
29:32In certain countries.
29:33Yes.
29:34Do you, do you share some of his, some of his viewpoints?
29:37Um, you know.
29:37Well, me and Chris, we met two years ago, um, in, in Pakistan.
29:41So that was the first time I've ever met him.
29:43And, um, Chris is a character.
29:44It's the best way to describe him.
29:45Um, so we had experience, um, in Pakistan.
29:49Um, Chris did have a bit of aggressive experience before in Pakistan, but obviously I think that's
29:55just due to a language barrier and how he was communicating with the Pakistani people.
30:00Now we make two different types of content.
30:02Chris goes more, it's more journalistic type of content.
30:05He goes deeper inside the roots.
30:07You know, he finds the untold stories.
30:09I'm more of a, I do something similar, but it's a bit more people, people's person type of content.
30:14I want to, I want to connect with the people and I want to show people that, okay, Trinidad and Tobago might have a bad murder rate, might have a high crime rate, but I'm not there to highlight that.
30:25The reason why is because that's just negative.
30:28Yes, it's there.
30:28I understand it's there, but I want to connect with the people.
30:32If I can connect with the people and I can show people, listen, come to Trinidad and Tobago.
30:36Yes, it might be dangerous.
30:37Yes, it might have a high crime rate, but it doesn't mean that everyone is part of that journey.
30:41There are areas of Trinidad that are dangerous, right?
30:44There are aspects, and that's what we're trying to communicate.
30:46Correct.
30:46That, you know, in every country, there's an area that's going to have, you know, some crime and so on.
30:55And Trinidad and Tobago at the moment is pretty high up on the scale, but there are aspects.
31:01You were recently at Stink and Dutty, you know, and there's a beautiful side to this country.
31:06I was in Stink and Dutty, I went to St. Paul Street, I was in Beatum.
31:11So I've been to, I've seen different aspects of Trinidad and Tobago.
31:15I was in Tobago as well, I went to the beach over there, I went to Maracas.
31:18So I've highlighted different parts of Trinidad and Tobago.
31:21Now, to be honest with you, Beatum was very rough, very rough, Beatum Gardens, due to, obviously,
31:28I did have a lot of aggression over there because obviously people weren't happy to see me.
31:31Maybe people weren't camera friendly or whatever, but it doesn't mean that I felt unsafe.
31:38You're here.
31:38I'm still here.
31:39You're right.
31:40Yeah.
31:41So it has me thinking, is it that we are subject or at the mercy of our environment in relation to being aggressive?
31:55Is it has a lot to do with our environment?
31:59Is it possible that we can not be aggressive if we're in a hostile environment?
32:09So based on what you're just saying, right?
32:12I know we have to go to the break, but based on what you're saying, is it that because of the culture and the upbringing,
32:18it has a lot to do with, or is it kind of, can you be in a hostile environment and not be aggressive in the context of the meaning that you shared?
32:29Is it possible to exhibit patience and benevolence and all these other good things and even if you're in a hostile environment?
32:39Or is it that it is necessary to be that way, to survive in those types of environments?
32:46And that Emir, that Ken, that Johansi, we'll discuss after this break.
32:50Right, guys, welcome back to Manhood.
33:02It's Blackman the Traveller and I'm going to respond to Ken's question.
33:05I think environment does play a part, you know, why men will be aggressive.
33:12Because if you're surrounded by negativity, if you're surrounded by, you know, people being hostile towards you,
33:18you are gravelly going to tend to be aggressive.
33:23Okay, so there is no way getting around that, Johansi?
33:25Yes, yes.
33:26You could get around it because it depends on what you're rewarded for.
33:30Let me give you an example.
33:32I grew up in Belmont and I mean, Belmont was way different then than it is now.
33:37But I wasn't rewarded for doing the things that were around me.
33:41So when people were on the block, right, I mean, that's what I saw.
33:44So even when I attempted to, right, I would get licks.
33:48Yeah.
33:48Right?
33:49I remember one time.
33:50You could see that.
33:51I was one time, I was tired.
33:54I was coming home, I was tired.
33:55I was actually tired.
33:56I said, okay, I almost remember, let me sit down.
33:58I remember sitting on the block and I remember, I don't know if, I can't remember if it was a slipper or something,
34:04came from my house, from my grandmother for me to get up from there.
34:08Right?
34:08So I wasn't rewarded for it.
34:11So let's go with a hostile environment.
34:13If, depending on what household you're from or organization, if you're not rewarded for that,
34:20then you wouldn't be part of the environment.
34:22But if you are, so, and that's why a lot of times gangs, people in gangs, adapt to the culture because you are rewarded for it.
34:30So if you have the gun, if you shoot someone, et cetera, et cetera, you're rewarded for it.
34:34So environment has a part to play, but it doesn't necessarily shape you exactly unless you're rewarded for it.
34:41I'm happy that two different answers, two different perspectives.
34:46So therein lies part of the solution to deal with the problematic youth that we're facing.
34:52So obviously, so if we see young men in areas that are prone to crime and violence,
35:01we can safely say, well, it's a matter of survival of the fittest.
35:06They're doing what they need to do to show face and to survive.
35:09I agree.
35:10You can't blame them.
35:11I agree.
35:12So sometimes we sit in our lofted positions and we look down and we condemn because we've never walked in their shoes.
35:20All right.
35:21So that is the first thing.
35:23So if we understand that so that they are a product of their environment,
35:28now we understand that you really need a strong will, bad mind as they say,
35:35to shield yourself against a toxic environment.
35:39Some of them have not developed that strong will because all they know is that toxic environment.
35:48So now, as Johansi says, we have to now show them that there is a better way and you will be rewarded in a better way.
35:58But the thing is that the reward comes with time.
36:03The reward comes with sacrifice.
36:06And they have been learned by the environment that we need to get it now.
36:14You need to get the money now.
36:17You need to have it now.
36:18So out of the answers, we are able now, we can able now kind of chart the way forward in relation to dealing with aggressive young men.
36:32Now we're dealing with many, right?
36:33Just as you just made a point there with regards to needing it now.
36:38Now there are two things in terms of, in a regular environment, in terms of the environments that we would know,
36:46for the most part, our lives and lifestyles.
36:49And not, we're not too much just levels of class, like, you know, those who have a lot of money, middle class and so on.
36:56But just a general understanding of, you know, we like to quote Maslow's theory, you know, just a general, you know,
37:02I have shelter, you have certain levels of safety, you can go in the fridge and there's food there.
37:08And there's a certain amount of comfort or community around you, right?
37:11So within there that, you know, you have an understanding of a certain behavior, right?
37:21And when you say reward, in these environments, that reward is not quick.
37:27It's earned.
37:28It's over time that you build into that because, you know, sometimes they tell you, if you want to go fast, go alone.
37:36But if you want to go far, then you go together, right?
37:38So in that environment, you're looking at, there's a different thinking.
37:44However, in another community, the reasons in other discussions that we've had with regards to they need it now,
37:52they have to make that money now, they have to live now, is because their expectation is 20 to 25.
37:58I once heard from a guy who said that in his business place,
38:02he has bookings from between 18 to 25 of people, persons buying their coffins because they only have that expectation.
38:12And these are a lot of his people, schoolmates, which is why he went into the business in the first place.
38:18So when you have that thinking, again, thinking that sometimes the general population can't fathom because they have not walked a mile in their shoes,
38:27you can't begin to think of that.
38:30So I'm just saying, just to put it into context, there are two ways of needing it now as a result of a life expectancy and needing it now because you're lazy.
38:39Right.
38:39So can we influence an environment?
38:44Can we influence a community?
38:45Yes, you can.
38:46Okay.
38:47And what do you think?
38:48You can influence an environment by showing people different aspects of what you're going to influence.
38:56You know what I mean?
38:56So let's say you can influence a community and say, look, you can, like, for example, get the money now.
39:01You can either get it fast or you can get it slow.
39:04But it just depends on how you want to get the money.
39:06And it depends how you're going to influence the community.
39:08Right.
39:08So you can influence the community either positive or it could be negative influence.
39:12Just depending.
39:12So you know how these community leaders operate?
39:15Because they have the means of feeding.
39:19You have to, community leaders.
39:20Yes, community leaders.
39:21Let me put it in quote.
39:22Okay.
39:23Right?
39:24Because they have the means of feeding their people.
39:28Okay.
39:28So they're able to meet a need right now.
39:31So they're able.
39:32And those people who needs are met right now, they feel obligated to do what the community leader wants.
39:39Okay.
39:39Because they're getting a plate of food, figuratively speaking, right now.
39:45Because as you rightfully say, the mentality is that around them, it's fast.
39:49Nobody lives past 25, 26.
39:52That comes to education, though, and mindset.
39:54That's how they, that's why they're thinking like that, I think.
39:57Right.
39:57They're thinking like that.
39:58But the reason why I ask that, you know, how can we affect a community is that, yeah, we don't need just to give contracts to these community leaders to feed their people.
40:12But we really want to, for them to have an understanding that nothing in life comes easy or there's a quick fix.
40:20So I think it will take time to do so.
40:23But we need to know what to do and then the will to do it for those who has the means and the power to do such.
40:30So one thing I wanted to ask you, Amir, and Johansson, I want you to still, because we mentioned earlier that people, everyone seems to be going around angry.
40:40And I want you to take on that as to probably why, you know, some people say it's in the food, it's in, you know, the TV that we're watching.
40:47In what food?
40:47The food, you know.
40:49You'd have research to prove that.
40:51The TV that we're watching.
40:52But before Johansson answers that, Amir, on this show, what we tend to like to ask people, because in the same way we say we are not speaking on behalf of all men, we are few men speaking to all men.
41:02You know, we also have different understandings of what it takes to be a man or what you're, you know, to you, what is a man?
41:12So if you don't mind.
41:14What is a man?
41:15What is a man?
41:16From my opinion, what is a man?
41:18A man is someone that has to have some sort of alpha dominance.
41:22A man is a man that has to be a leader, understanding, but at the same time caring.
41:30And a man needs to have some sort of intelligence as well.
41:33That's how I describe a man from my perspective.
41:36But a man doesn't always have to be rude.
41:39It doesn't always have to be passive aggressive because there's, okay, when you look at a man, there's different ways to describe a man.
41:45You've got a different opinion, you've got a different opinion, you've got a different opinion.
41:47Everyone just has to have their own opinion, but there is no specific way to describe man.
41:53But that's just my way.
41:55Okay.
41:55Yeah.
41:56And that's what we wanted.
41:57We wanted because each man that comes on manhood, we are all individuals.
42:00Of course.
42:01Right.
42:01And even though we're discussing and sometimes we come to a common ground, we still have differences of opinion.
42:06Yes.
42:07And one definition I remember that we concluded in being a man is being able to adapt to his environment.
42:14So what I need to be a man in Trinidad could be completely different to being in West or East Africa, different to being in Pakistan, et cetera, et cetera.
42:22So we are okay with you having a difference of opinion because from your context, that's what being a man is supposed to be.
42:31I agree.
42:31Right?
42:31And Robert, you wanted to ask me a question.
42:34With regards to why we're going wrong, I agree.
42:36Right.
42:36So I'll say one with the environment and I know you're closing time so I could start some of that.
42:47Are we, isn't our DNA to be aggressive?
42:50I would say no.
42:51Right?
42:52And because there's the argument always between nature and nurture.
42:57But we, at least the search show is a combination of both because no matter what your DNA disposition is, your environment could help change that.
43:08And, of course, depending on how strong you are, you could help change your environment also.
43:13Right?
43:13So that's one.
43:14Two is research-wise, when men suppress their emotions, it is usually expressed as anger.
43:23Right?
43:24When women suppress their emotions, it is sometimes expressed as crying, sadness, et cetera, according to the research.
43:31And I agree with it because anger generally is a secondary emotion.
43:36Most of us don't feel anger first.
43:38We feel something that we don't want to feel and then we replace it with anger.
43:42So let's just say somebody hits you a hard lash, a hard slap, and in front of everyone, the first feeling might be embarrassment.
43:49We don't want to feel embarrassed, so you replace it with anger.
43:52A woman breaks your heart and you're feeling hurt or sad.
43:56You don't want to feel hurt or sad, so you replace it with anger.
43:59And that's generally what we men do.
44:02So when we have a lot of men now going around the place angry, that's because those men, I said we men, because I'm not perfect with that either.
44:11We men not expressing ourselves.
44:14We're suppressing something and we're not being ourselves.
44:17And I think that's a major component if we add in what it is to be a man, is the courage to express your truth in a loving and respectful manner.
44:27Because truth is truth, but to say it loving and respectfully.
44:30So instead of aggression, you be assertive.
44:33You state, you know, I like this.
44:35I don't like this.
44:36Even some of the quote-unquote soft emotions, right now I'm sad.
44:39You could state it and be honest about it.
44:42Instead of being afraid, you suppress it and then replace it with anger.
44:47So even though that part of your closing, you also mentioned to a point that we were raising just now with regards to it being maybe attributed to even the food that we're eating.
44:58And you were saying that there's actual science.
45:00Right, yes, yes.
45:01So I remember, this was when I was studying in the States.
45:05There was issues to show wherever there's a concentration of fast food outlets, right?
45:11As you know, the various fast food, fried chicken, et cetera, there was also a concentration on violence.
45:16Now, at first, that was correlation versus causality.
45:20So you just look at it that way.
45:22But research show in terms of the chemicals in food, this is not specifically towards men now.
45:28This is everybody.
45:29The chemicals in the food, artificial chemicals, made people more aggressive.
45:34That's one.
45:35And then two, this is what I've realized personally, is that generally the more fast food you eat, no matter what type it is, it changes your mentality towards things.
45:46Because fast food means I want it now.
45:48Well, I don't even mention hormonal, just mentality, because I want it now.
45:54So we know fast food is faster than cooking.
45:58But since you get so accustomed to fast food, you want the fast food even faster than fast food.
46:04So now you become impatient and you train yourself to become impatient.
46:08So now you become more aggressive.
46:11Thoughts?
46:13Interesting.
46:14Yeah.
46:14Interesting.
46:14No, no, you said something there that had me thinking.
46:19Even though that as men, we should try not to suppress our true emotions, there are situations where it's not a time and place to express how we feel.
46:31And that is not an egotistic statement, but it's wisdom.
46:36Let me just draw an example.
46:37If I'm in an environment where, you know, we're doing business and something was said or done that breaks my heart in that form, I just, I can't like, of course, what are you doing, man?
46:50You know what I mean?
46:51Well, that doesn't sound very much.
46:56But let's say it's the same situation, we're in business and I just get a message, my girlfriend break up with me, my mom's sick in the hospital, something.
47:05You have to suck it up.
47:05You have to suck it up.
47:06Not necessarily.
47:07You could say, gentlemen.
47:08But what he's saying here, he spoke, just now spoke about suppression of emotion.
47:12Right.
47:12So I would say, gentlemen, gentlemen.
47:14I know we're in business right now, but maybe I can't continue because I just get some upsetting news.
47:19So that's still being, you're still expressing the emotion and being vulnerable, but you're doing it respectfully.
47:25I'm still doing it in a masculine manner.
47:27You're not crying like, what can I do there?
47:30But you say, gentlemen, I really, not in the mind space, I just got some news, et cetera, et cetera.
47:35Guys, we come in, we're approaching closing, and I want you to really give your closing thoughts on that.
47:42But if suppressing your emotion is your thought, then it's your thought.
47:47I have a different thought on the suppression of emotion because what we determine as man and manly is different in different areas that you go different environments because, you know, you might have a partner who wants you to express.
48:01And sometimes suppressing emotion also leads to lack of communication.
48:05And lack of communication, then either party, unless you're clairvoyant, doesn't know what the other person wants, and then leads to distance.
48:13So there's a lot that can, which is a whole other episode or conversation.
48:18But if you can, in sharing what you've learned on this particular episode and probably some words to the audience.
48:26Well, very quickly.
48:28We know that you don't agree with your aggression.
48:29Yeah, I know that.
48:30Right?
48:31Your Honor.
48:32I know that.
48:32I know that.
48:33I know that.
48:33It's just that, of course, most would know that I work on the radio.
48:39So regardless of what goes on in my life on a daily basis, I need to function.
48:47And those who are the recipients of what I do don't really care fundamentally of what I'm going through.
48:53So that is the idea in which I was coming from.
48:58Yes, of course, I've made it emphatically clear of my position.
49:01I just think that as men, we need to do a lot of soul-searching, introspection.
49:08Alone does not mean lonely.
49:12We need time for ourselves to recognize our thoughts or emotions.
49:17And in so doing, we're able now to express ourselves in a manner in which that we should have the wisdom to determine how to function and where to function and where to become and where to move forcefully in certain areas.
49:32So it all boils down to, you know, knowing thyself, to thine own self be true and it can't be false to any man.
49:39I agree.
49:40I think as men, we need to find ourselves because obviously I think in this day and age, we're having a lot of negative stigma, you know, around the world.
49:49So I think we need to find ourselves, we need to have composure and we just need to reconnect of who we are as men.
49:55If we're thinking about aggression, aggression itself comes with force.
50:01And I do think as men, we need to force anything, force ourselves on anyone, force anyone to do anything.
50:07So I would say no, agreeing with Ken is not in our DNA.
50:11And if you find yourself being aggressive, then take a step back, do that introspection, understand exactly why you're trying to force this thing, face the reality of it, and then be true to yourself and others around you.
50:25So aggression, aggression to another person is certainly signs of many things, one of which is insecurity.
50:35So check someone like Johan say, you know, talk about it.
50:40Suppressing emotion is not something that I subscribe to, but who you express your emotion to is where you have to figure out who is your community.
50:49Is your community and the person you're expressing to are persons going to give you the results, give you back the feedback that you require in order to be a better person, to be a man.
51:00Find your manhood.
51:01And also to the point that we discuss, you know, when we talk about, Ken, you mentioned, I can't just let that slip.
51:11When in our various job roles, you know, in media, we are always open to that.
51:19I remember one day really having chicken gunia and coming off the back of that.
51:25It's a really debilitating and horrible experience with regards to that.
51:33And coming on air, and we always take that role.
51:35Nobody really cares what you're going through.
51:37You have to show up.
51:38And I don't think it comes down to too much that nobody cares.
51:41It's a matter of that they're going through what they're going through at that point.
51:45And if you reach home and you're going through what you're going through sitting on your couch, I don't want to turn on a TV and have that same experience.
51:53So I want to kind of come out of my zone for a moment, you know, purge a little bit, refresh, reset, and see someone in their particular environment.
52:02But I do take your point that we have that responsibility and we suck it up.
52:06But, you know, going into communities, you know, my job role has allowed me to.
52:10My experiences are different going into any community, you know, whether it's being considered a rough community, from the poorer communities to the rich communities.
52:19And I find most times it's the poorer communities that really embrace me more than anything else.
52:24You know, a plate of food, you know, a drink, you know, come and sit on and watch this, have conversations.
52:28So my experience is there has always been really a welcoming one, you know, where they might say, hey, the sportsman boy, or whatever the case may be.
52:38But people aren't inherently what we come down to bad.
52:42Nobody's born evil.
52:44And aggression comes from somewhere.
52:46And I'm so glad that you touched on that point, Johansi, so that we can do a lot of introspection.
52:50So whether it be in a big way, in an aggressive way that leads to violence that really upsets a community, persons per person, you know, check yourself, get checked, find your community.
53:04And it's not one that's admirable anyway.
53:10Smile if you can.
53:11A smile is infectious.
53:13It lights up a room.
53:14You always want to leave a room better than you found it.
53:16And let's find always a positive way to leave a room and leave, you know, people don't remember what you did for them.
53:26They just remember how you made them feel.
53:28So Johansi, Emir, Black Man the Traveller, you know, wish you luck.
53:34With your safety, you know, and all that you do.
53:35Safety, yeah.
53:37You know, and continue doing what you do.
53:38You know, pleasure to have you on the show.
53:40I will be back.
53:41I'll definitely be back to your country and I'll try to highlight most of the positive things as well.
53:45I appreciate that because we have a lot of positives.
53:50You know, this is sweet TNT.
53:52We have a few bad apples, but, you know, the table, the banquet is still there to be seen by the world.
54:01Black man, you highlight whoever you want to highlight.
54:04The truth is the truth.
54:05You highlight whoever you want to highlight.
54:07And, of course, Ken, you know, always a pleasure.
54:09Thank you for the insight.
54:10You know, we take your point again.
54:11You know, Ken, you know, doesn't believe that aggression is in our DNA.
54:16And neither do any of us on the planet.
54:18Right.
54:19We want that to be known.
54:20So thank you again for joining us here on Manhood.
54:22The topic was, is aggression in our DNA?
54:25Manhood, brought to you in part by Reboot Sports Drink.