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00:01Manhood, brought to you by Jameson, natural sources since 1922 and Racetrack.
00:12So thank you for joining us for yet another conversation about manhood.
00:16And remember, we are not speaking on behalf of all men.
00:20We are a few men speaking to all men.
00:23And by the definition of man, it's not bravado and that you like sports and that you're a particular manly man.
00:30It's simply that you have values that we want to shine and be bright and be men.
00:39To be recognized as men.
00:42So my panel today, the guys, I know everybody's really excited about today's topic.
00:47And I have a definition that I always like to start off with, but let me do the introductions.
00:50Johanse Iodike, behavior change consultant.
00:54Valmiki Ramlagan, radio personality, a good friend.
00:59And Niall McNish himself, media personality, director of social.
01:06I mean, there's a whole gamut of things that Niall is.
01:09And he's particularly excited about talking about today's topic.
01:14Today's topic is, as much as we are starting off in a very buoyant and, you know, a mood of smiles,
01:22it's a very serious one, a topic that tends to lead to all sorts of violence, death, heartbreak.
01:32Why do men cheat?
01:35Why do people cheat?
01:37So let me start off with the definition that I found.
01:40But before I start off the definition, it would be really good to recognize our brothers,
01:47Ray Struck, for sponsoring this set and a sponsorship of manhood,
01:53as well as Jameson, keeping us healthy.
01:56So thank you, Jameson and Ray Struck.
01:59Definition.
02:01When women cheat, there's usually an element of romance, intimacy, connection, or love.
02:07Men, on the other hand, are more likely to cheat to satisfy sexual urges with fewer thoughts of intimacy.
02:16No surprises there.
02:18Of course, many men cheat because they feel love, as well as sexual attraction for an outside partner.
02:24But more don't.
02:26For them, infidelity can be an opportunistic, primarily sexual action that, in their minds,
02:33does not affect their primary relationship.
02:35In fact, when asked, many such men will report that they're very happy in their primary relationship,
02:43that they love their significant other, that their sex life is great,
02:49and that despite their cheating, they have no intention of ending their primary relationship.
02:57So we're discussing why do men cheat.
03:00But we're also going to be discussing why do women cheat.
03:03Why do we cheat?
03:03And we've, I wouldn't say that we've all done it, but I'm sure, sitting down here, you know, in some form or fashion,
03:11and we'll find out the definition, because we speak specifically in this context about physical.
03:19But as we're seeing now with the advent of social media, it's across a broader spectrum.
03:24But I read the definition, thoughts?
03:29Well, firstly, you were speaking about the research that was done, right?
03:35And we know all women and all men in the world wasn't interviewed, right?
03:40So it's from a catchment of people, based on culture, et cetera.
03:43So I'll set in that premise first.
03:45Very important to know that.
03:47When we talk about surveys, it could be six people in a thousand, if you're lucky.
03:52So I just want to present that.
03:53Right.
03:54So I will go from some, the information, but it's from actual conversations, right, with people.
04:01So we're going on our general first, why people cheat.
04:05Most times, in terms of the responses I've gotten, is that they are missing something from the relationship.
04:11Okay.
04:11So even if it is expressed physically in terms of sex, right, sometimes it's because of excitement, so sex will bring the excitement.
04:21Sometimes sex will bring intimacy, right?
04:23Sometimes sex will bring a feeling of being cared for.
04:26Sometimes sex is even an outlet to vent that maybe they didn't have.
04:32Sometimes even sex brings the variety, because maybe the person they're with have a certain format,
04:39that they only want things a certain way.
04:41Yeah.
04:41Right?
04:42Dead fish.
04:44And the sex brings that.
04:47So I'll give one angle, because there are a few other reasons, but I'll give one angle first,
04:51of they're missing something from the relationship, and you can explore that.
04:56Okay.
04:56So there's a lot, guys, that I want to cover in this particular episode, this conversation.
05:02One, of course, we've recognized is across both genders, male and female, sex is a big part of it.
05:10Right.
05:10Sex is, and sex is really where a man, where you really hit the ego.
05:14Because let's face it, you know, a woman cheats on a man, and all you're thinking is, how the man did it?
05:20Yeah.
05:20You know what I'm saying?
05:21You haven't even gone down to the part, or you haven't even reached the area of why the woman cheated, you know?
05:27What is going through your mind at that point is, what happened?
05:31And you're one, but you don't want details.
05:35The one question, the first thing men ask is, was he bigger than me?
05:39You know, that's not like the main thing that, you know?
05:42Did you have an orgasm with him?
05:45But to go back to what you were saying about sex, I feel like everything in the world is about sex, except sex.
05:53Sex is about power.
05:55Right?
05:55And a lot of the time, what I realize, especially for men, and the reason why men cheat is that they start to feel powerless in their actual relationship.
06:06Even if a woman could be the most doting wife or the most caring person in their life, something that she might be doing, not giving them that feeling of, I am a man anymore.
06:20And usually, if you notice, most men date or cheat down while most women cheat up.
06:27And what I mean by that is that most men will always, most men will cheat below their status in life.
06:34It will always be, it will never be somebody sweeter than a gal.
06:37So a woman, a woman not cheating for no $200 date.
06:41Basically, she's not going to risk a relationship for that.
06:44But a man just might.
06:46No, but if she had got something to $150 date, she might.
06:50There you go.
06:50I mean, if I had to put it in my two cents, I would say, let me just talk about humans and a whole, but men, we cheat because we can.
07:01That's how I see it.
07:02But everything leads up to that one factor.
07:05There's a sense of mortality we feel.
07:07We know time is of the essence.
07:09So even if we're happy, we're real happy with somebody.
07:11But you go to a party like with the boys and we're real drinking and you get a wink in the corner.
07:15And all of a sudden, you're getting more second winks.
07:17Next note, her friend comes, I want your phone number.
07:21It's not even just validation, but it's because we can.
07:25And that is we have to separate that reality from narcissism, right?
07:31Because it applies to both men and women.
07:32But when you say we can, Val, let's do a deeper dive into that.
07:36When you say we can, because women can.
07:39Okay, I suppose you usually walk over, right?
07:41To cross the highway.
07:42But I can cross the actual highway, run across.
07:46It's not a matter of right or wrong anymore.
07:49And because you're pressing with time, as a mortal individual, time is of the essence.
07:54Again, you can be real happy.
07:56And then the whole concept of cheating, we may have to divide it because the preconceived notion of cheating a long time was sex.
08:02But now some people feel a worse horn when they find somebody else to confide in.
08:08And they're talking about you with them.
08:10You understand?
08:11So it has different levels.
08:13This is what we started off by saying that now, it's more, as you said, before the advent of social media, it was physical.
08:21But now there's cheating with regards to the first time.
08:26It's probably the time someone sends you a message.
08:29And you're looking for, you know, we have this like culture.
08:31You know, you want to get as many likes.
08:33And a man or a woman sends you, or it depends, because a woman could send to a woman and a man to a man.
08:39There's actually another study that I will talk about later.
08:43You get that like, and then you send, or they might send you a message looking good or a smiley face.
08:50And then you respond.
08:52And then you feel good about it.
08:54The next thing, you know, there's a private message.
08:55From the time you engage in a thought, based on this study, and based on, I mean, just having a discussion, I'm sure we could relate to our own feelings.
09:04That's cheating.
09:05You're now confiding, or you're open to exploring something further.
09:12You know, people say, well, it's just window shopping.
09:14And as long as I don't go in and purchase anything, that's okay.
09:16No, from the time the thought is there, it is now considered a form of cheating.
09:22You're open to it, and it's just a matter of time and place.
09:25And the predator at that point, men are predators, women are predators.
09:33We're not differentiating here, even though we're talking about why men cheat.
09:36You know, we're just sort of, you know, all kind of moving all around.
09:39But can we, can we settle, has everyone here cheated before?
09:44At cards?
09:45What are we talking about?
09:46Yeah, let's be honest.
09:48Yes, I have.
09:49I have cheated, and I've been cheated on.
09:52I have been cheated on as well.
09:54And I can say that the feeling, the feeling of being cheated on, which is another discussion that, you know, I was looking at, I think it was Steve Harvey.
10:04And they say men cheat, but women do it better.
10:09By far.
10:10They know how to do it better.
10:12And a lot of times, I don't know if they have a better way of cheating or they're smart at it.
10:19I think what it is, is men are so caught up in ego that you think to yourself, that can't happen to me.
10:25They wouldn't cheat on me because you think that you were the boss.
10:29And when it happens, it hits you such a gut punch that sometimes you can't even, you know, it's like, you can't breathe.
10:38So you might have done it 20 times, but that woman did it one time.
10:43But I actually think that women, it's not that they could do it better, it's that women have more respect for their men than men have for women while cheating.
10:51No, but what I'm saying to you is, is.
10:53That's why they don't get caught.
10:54It's not a matter of they're better.
10:56Respect for their men?
10:57No, I think that's the opposite.
10:58You're not opening up the conversation here, the conversation.
11:02No, no, Nile said something, Vaz said something.
11:04So I'm going to go around because I don't want to miss somebody.
11:07Right, right.
11:09Right?
11:09So we're coming back to the respect.
11:11Respect every woman, respect their men more while cheating.
11:14So before, Nile said that sex is about power, right?
11:18And I disagree with you because everybody have a different reason why they have sex, right?
11:23And they have a different reason on a different day.
11:25So Monday, you have sex with your girlfriend or your wife for a specific reason.
11:29Tuesday could be something different.
11:31And I'm using it in that sense because if we just go to human behavior, it's toward feeling action.
11:36We're ever going on here, towards creating a feeling and creating action.
11:38And that may be something different at a different time.
11:40So even when he's talking about Steve Harvey making his blanket statements about men,
11:44or his blanket statements about women, I disagree with it.
11:47Even thinking most men, because, again, it's very situational, and I'm glad we're talking about it.
11:53So, yes, we could form some kind of precedence, but we're still very situational.
11:57Because even when you're saying to cross the highway, right, it's different reasons.
12:02Sometimes it could be because of time.
12:04Sometimes it could be because of inefficiency.
12:06Sometimes it could be because of excitement.
12:08Correct.
12:08It could be a different reason why you want to run across the highway versus take it.
12:11So we're going with situational.
12:12So sometimes it's about power, so I'm agreeing with you there, right?
12:17Val, what you're saying before, I'm losing some of these points, you know.
12:22That's right.
12:22That's right.
12:22I want to use my...
12:23Right.
12:23Because we can't.
12:25We can't.
12:25Right.
12:27Yes.
12:28Yes or no.
12:29And I want to address that because some men who was telling me, well, it was in front of me.
12:34So take it, right?
12:37That, a lot of times, the stem of that, and which, this is our main point,
12:41is in, say, 70%, maybe 80% of men that I spoke to that I know that cheated,
12:47it's because of low self-esteem.
12:49And let me explain now, right?
12:51Because if you say, well, once it's in front of me, I'll take it.
12:55I'll then ask, how do you rate yourself?
12:57And most men, it's a 9 out of 10.
13:00Some men say, it's a 20 out of 10.
13:01So say then, why then you'll go to a woman who's a 2 out of 10
13:05if it just presented in front of you?
13:07And most times, it's because of low self-esteem and or coming from scarcity,
13:12meaning that I can't get no more.
13:15I have my wife, I have my girlfriend, and maybe I can't get no more.
13:18So wherever I get in, I'm taking it.
13:20And I'm putting that up front because that low self-esteem is one of the major factors.
13:25Then somebody said about respect.
13:28Right?
13:28That women respect their men more.
13:31I disagree now, again.
13:32I didn't speak to all the women in the world.
13:33I know you're not on surveys.
13:35Right?
13:36But the women that have told me that they cheated, right,
13:40most times that respect is not necessary for the men but for themselves.
13:44And I'll explain because they don't want to look bad publicly.
13:48Now I'll go with a study.
13:49Study shows that women care more about their reputation, right,
13:53on a whole, how they look to people.
13:54Actually, maybe it's humans and all, eh?
13:56Because men are, we are ego too.
13:58So let me not pinpoint women on what they're using it here.
14:00A lot of times they do it slicker because they don't want to look bad to society.
14:05They do more than a man.
14:06A man might feel bad because he don't want people to know that he was cheated on.
14:10Because that would bruise his ego.
14:11Not that he cheated, right?
14:13But a woman don't want people to see them as being loose or whatever it may be in terms,
14:19in the derogatory terms.
14:20So it's not necessary to have respect for the husband or the man,
14:23but that they don't want to look bad in the eyes of the public.
14:26Well, the eyes of the public not seeing when haunting happening.
14:29And so we're talking about her reflection of what you're trying to accomplish.
14:32Well, it depends where the one take place, eh?
14:34Well, agreed.
14:35But I would hope that nobody, you know, doing it out in the open and just wild, right?
14:40Because sometimes a tape could come out.
14:43Well, the tape's happening.
14:45That is just wildness to begin with.
14:47That's supposed to be happening.
14:48But the point is, the effort that I've seen that women take to ensure that they don't get caught, right?
14:58It's always come from a point where this man can't take this if it is he find out about it.
15:05He cannot take it.
15:07And why do you call that respect versus it?
15:09It could be fear.
15:10Eh, I agree.
15:11But fear still has form of respect, you know.
15:14At the end of the day, you can fear your leaders that you still have manners.
15:18But you're not necessarily saying that you fear that he can't take it because there are those that you say,
15:23listen, if he finds out, he may get violent.
15:26But there's also the fear.
15:29There's also just that you don't want to break their heart.
15:32Well, I don't want to say because they care about the person.
15:33You care about the person.
15:34Because prior to the cheating, this is two people in a relationship.
15:36We don't know how long.
15:37But what I want to add to it, too, is like we could all agree and we could spend years so long talking about why people cheat.
15:42But why I mention because we can is because there will be contributing factors that leads up to the action of cheating.
15:51But because we can, that's why we do it.
15:53But I can't speak, again, I like service, but I don't put too much into it because service are very, you know, finicky because it could be a different country, different culture, different demographic, different age.
16:05I mean, it's all different current factors.
16:06But your primal instinct from a man, all right?
16:09So let me say you're happy in a relationship.
16:11You're real happy.
16:13But subconsciously, primal instinct-wise, we're always seeking to have the ideal meat, right?
16:21We're seeking to have the ideal meat.
16:22That has gotten lost.
16:23I thought you said meat there.
16:24I was just like, okay, you know.
16:27That has gotten lost over time because we want different reasons for a relationship or we believe there's different reasons for a relationship.
16:34But we got to, so you have a woman, you have your children, all you have in the house to get everything nice.
16:39But what would make you want to go, yes, having good sex, sex, sex.
16:43I mean, that's our number one contributing factor for most men.
16:46I took the bedroom like, boy, don't get married.
16:49If you don't want to have sex, don't get married.
16:50You know, thank God for one birthday, yeah, yeah, right?
16:54But if you happen beyond that and much better than that, and you still go to a club or you go out or you travel to do a seminar somewhere out of the country,
17:01so you know there's no way her, her friends, nobody could know.
17:06But you still find yourself in your position.
17:08Not that we can't stop the opportunity coming, right?
17:11But to act on it now.
17:13This is the level we're going now.
17:14So it's still, to me as a man, I think it would boil along to what you're saying about self-vote.
17:22Yes, there's a sense of validation.
17:24But we also, but the mortality I talk about, as we get older, most men, as they get older, whether they want to be in a relationship or not,
17:31in their 50s or 60s, we still want to know we're still attractive to the other sex.
17:37Yes, you still have game.
17:38We still have game.
17:40We still have some kind of something, you know?
17:42We could go to the beach and do this with our wife or our girlfriend, but once it was going to look, we're good with that.
17:47But then to go beyond that now, like I said, there's many different reasons.
17:51It could be a cultural thing, seeing your father, treating your mother, the house you grew up in, seeing there was no respect, so you don't have nothing to follow back on.
17:57Well, your value system, so are you being a man?
18:00So kind of like what Johansi mentioned about there is validity in the argument that cheating may be connected to a sense of, oh, multiple partners may be a contributing factor in security.
18:16Because in doing that, you need that validation.
18:19And if you're confident within yourself, then two things would happen.
18:22One, you would need that validation.
18:24And two, if you found that your partner wasn't giving you what you require, you'd simply walk away.
18:30Or say something.
18:31Or say something.
18:32And many men, and I found this more with men than women, again.
18:37I speak to all men and women, but more men, we tend to be afraid to see what we want and to see exactly what we have a problem with and what we want in a relationship, sexually or otherwise.
18:48And because of that, again, that comes from low self-esteem because you don't believe in what you want is valid.
18:54Right?
18:55Down to, hey, I don't like the eyelashes.
18:57Right?
18:58But you ain't say nothing.
18:58Right the time you see all the eyelashes, they turn you off.
19:00And then they turn you off enough time, they turn off her mouth.
19:02And then they meet a woman who do all the eyelashes.
19:04Correct.
19:05And then, if you understand what I'm saying, instead of just saying, I don't like this or I like this.
19:08Yeah.
19:09Now, the person, your female counterpart, you don't have to acquiesce to your needs.
19:13Right?
19:14And they could end up leaving you.
19:15But sometimes, well, I'm afraid she'll leave me if I say this.
19:18Again, you're going back down to the worth of it.
19:21So, if you're able to say exactly what you want and this person giving you, say, person, okay, they listen to your needs and they're giving you, let's say, 90% of what you want.
19:30Or to the point where that you're satisfied, then you don't really need it.
19:35You don't need anything else.
19:36Even if a real nice woman comes, even if you're away in Alaska and nobody will ever know anything, if you are satisfied and you value yourself and your relationship, which comes back to self-esteem, then you wouldn't.
19:50So, I'm putting it that way to explore the reasons because none of us are perfect.
19:55Yeah.
19:55So, all of us could end up as men, even men listening to the scenario where we feel something.
20:00So, that's a real, real good part in this conversation to take a small break because the other question, on the other side of that, which we'll be talking about when we come back from the break, is what happens if your partner just simply asexual or simply not, you know, physically attracted to you again, but there's still some sort of love there.
20:23But we'll debate that, have that discussion.
20:25All right.
20:27We'll have it.
21:00I think because sometimes they tune out or they themselves, there's no reason why a woman doesn't have an, you know, like why she cannot move from a place of ego herself.
21:13You know, you find that we paint it with a broad brush to say that men cheat because they can and out of physical attraction, but women cheat out from an emotional place.
21:26You know, again, that's a survey, that's a broad brush, I don't think so.
21:30Both parties, you get, you feel attractive, there's something lacking in your relationship, you're just built that way, there are many things.
21:38Because as I was telling you guys at the break, I'm going to share with you now, I have heard in a documentary that I was doing based on domestic violence, when you go into communities, women actually tell you, if they don't beat me, they don't love me.
21:52Right?
21:53And therefore, part of that is what they receive as love might be some sort of act of violence.
22:00So there are many different areas where people may feel certain types of emotion, and one of that could be the fact that, and then of course you have what triggers the man, because when they now go with their partner or they go with someone else, they will then express to them why they went with this particular man,
22:22which then sends a man, volcano, eruption, violence ensues, because you either want to now kill that man, you want to kill the woman, you want to, you know, or you beat them.
22:34And so, it's not as, I wouldn't even say simple as saying, when I was cheated on, it broke my heart, but it broke my ego first.
22:47Because I was in shock, like, what? This person? Oh, I would have never seen it coming.
22:54And the, I wouldn't even say the irony, the irony was, with that particular person, I'd never cheated on.
23:01Okay.
23:02Right? In the past, I'd cheated, so maybe it's karma. In the past, I'd cheated, but with that particular person, even though they thought I did, I actually never did.
23:10Because I was, I was, you know.
23:13Trying to be a better person.
23:14Trying to be a better person, and I was hook, line, and sinker.
23:17But it happened.
23:18And when it happened, like I said, the ego was the first thing that was hit.
23:21Asking, not the questions that you would think most men would ask, but it was more the why, because I felt I'd given everything.
23:31And then, you know, so, the second thing would have been, of course, then heartbreak, because you realize, okay, can I move past this?
23:39And so, I'm saying that we really have to look at, there's no broad brush.
23:45That's basically what I'm saying.
23:46Because as I talk in here, you know, emotions kind of building up again.
23:49I see it on your face a little.
23:50And you're kind of going back to that space, and you know, like, rah, you know, type of thing.
23:55As you see emotions, I'm not going to ask you a question.
23:57This might be a therapy question, right?
23:59Well, I realize that I waited for the therapist.
24:03I'm not sure if they ask it, because we have enough time, and I think we have your napkins.
24:08Right.
24:08Don't put me at the target.
24:12Let's ask a general question.
24:14I'm watching that big question.
24:16What I ask, because you're saying the ego hit, and we could make a general statement.
24:21Use me as an example.
24:22It's for the betterment.
24:23I'm not saying that a woman cheats on him.
24:25Ego is hit.
24:26Right.
24:26And I would ask the same question as what you were saying before, in terms of why you get hit first,
24:31because that means we had some kind of insecurity there from before.
24:34Okay.
24:34So, going back to that, being secure in yourself in the relationship, because I can tell you an example.
24:40Two examples, actually, I've had of clients who told me that they were cheating on.
24:45One man actually came in the house and found them.
24:49And in his mind, now, he was angry, right?
24:53And he was hurt.
24:54But, and he said he was, he felt secure that he did everything he could in the relationship.
25:01Right?
25:02And he felt he did everything in himself.
25:04And he said he almost certain, because, of course, he had to have a conversation after to find out why.
25:08But he was almost certain, it's nothing that he was lacking.
25:11Right?
25:12And how he reacted to it, it might sound a little strange, but he, he, he opened the door, and he just said, calmly, you know, pack your bags, et cetera, et cetera.
25:22The man get frightened, he say, he said, brother, this, I not, I not vexed at you, you must use doing your thing.
25:29Right.
25:29He was calm about it.
25:30And he was calm.
25:30I understand why you did it, you know?
25:31He was calm about it.
25:33And then he, he went, he went, I think he left, and he said, well, he expect her to leave, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
25:38He went, wait outside.
25:39And I, when he told me that, I was like, I don't even know if I have that in me, right?
25:44And for, for most men, but because, and he came because he was hurting on how to get over the hood, but I didn't feel any, any sense of insecurity.
25:54And he said, you know what?
25:55That he could, if he could do this for one moment, he could do this for the next moment.
25:58And he said, he can't predict what will happen, but he was secure in himself.
26:02So I go into that because I started questioning, am I that secure in myself?
26:06And the answer was no, you know?
26:08Right.
26:08And, and, and at that moment, I thought about what do I need to, to do to reach a level of security?
26:14Now, again, and I'm saying a level of security, it means that you wouldn't feel hurt, you know?
26:18Yeah, of course.
26:18Or you wouldn't even roll in and you grow and cry, cry about it.
26:21But you believe you will be able to deal with it any best proper way.
26:24Dealing with it is that proper way.
26:25You said, you said something there that I want to touch on because we, in the asking why do men cheat and why do women cheat is also the signs to, to know whether somebody cheats.
26:37And when you said there about you don't know emotionally whether, you know, as you speak about caring or not, one of the things that they show is a woman, one of the telltale signs is when someone is emotionally now disconnected.
26:49And, and so if, if, if, if, when a, when your partner finds out, if they're very apathetic at that point, and it's just like, well, you know, and you, and some people put it down to survivability.
27:03They're putting their walls up.
27:04It's more than that.
27:06You know, they say, the, the old people say there's more than any mortar than any pestle.
27:08And what you may find, I'm not saying again, in all cases, this is again, just a study where it shows that certain things are removed.
27:18If they become a lot more secretive, if you find that you're getting sex more, get this, sex more or less is also a determining factor because more could be out of guilt.
27:30And less means they're getting satisfied somewhere else, right?
27:35So, so one of the other factors was the fact that the emotion is, is no longer there.
27:40So they're not asking you, how was your day?
27:43What's happening with you?
27:44And if you do communicate, again, it's very apathetic.
27:47It's very surface level.
27:49And all these are some signs of the fact that, that not, it's not necessary.
27:55I don't want, I don't want people out there to go on, wait a minute, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick.
27:59And then accusations start to take kiss and jealousy.
28:02Yeah, because Robert said, Robert said, Robert said, Robert said, it's not, all of a sudden you start to jab me more today.
28:08No, no, there's something wrong, right?
28:09Well, what, what Robert's saying is incongruence, right?
28:12When you're in a relationship, you must know the energy of, if you're invested in the relationship, let me go there.
28:17If you're emotionally present in the relationship, you must know when there's incongruence, something.
28:22More sex, less sex, more of this, less of this.
28:25The person moving different, you always know.
28:28Yeah, there's no way there, there's kissing stuff, kissing on the lip stuff, that's always a telltale sign.
28:33Telltale sign.
28:34But some of you touched on earlier about not being able to express, like, just a simple comment about, well, I don't really like the eyelashes and all.
28:40Some, a lot of men don't have the know-how to communicate.
28:44Now, when we do go out now, we find somebody who seems able to read us better than our partner.
28:50So it's no longer us being able to communicate, but they know how to reach us communication-wise.
28:54That's also a way to cheat.
28:57Now, this topic is, it has to go more beyond, because there's cheating, there's having enough fear.
29:02And there are different reasons for those levels, right?
29:04Of course.
29:04So what I think is, as far as the cheating goes, it also, and this will be what your studies do, with your qualifications.
29:14Health and mental wellness, and aging, as we get older, everybody, we want different things.
29:22Something as simple as testosterone levels, drop it on a man, and you just don't care for sex no more with your wife.
29:26Yeah.
29:27Right?
29:27But you will go on emotionally cheap with another woman out there, or exchange numbers, or they're chatting all the time.
29:32Or you might find that those testosterone levels, with someone else, who gives you that vibe or that feeling, re-energizes you.
29:41Yeah.
29:41And a lot of women, as they get older, they're now finding themselves, a lot of women give up so much, so much to support their family, their mate, whatever the case.
29:49And now they're going back to school, they're getting further in their job, they want to travel.
29:53So a lot of things, and it's just because of, again, men and women, inability to communicate, that things have changed as an individual.
30:02I like that.
30:03You know, and again, cheating is always a cop-out, too.
30:05As you mentioned that, ironically, that was the reason I was given.
30:09When I was cheated on it, it was, apart from working, I was hardly ever around.
30:15I'm always working, but also, they needed to find themselves.
30:18They were still looking for themselves.
30:20So, I mean, whether it's a cop-out or not, it happened, I can't stand by and go, oh, I had nothing to do with.
30:27Because, again, people cheat.
30:29People cheat.
30:30But the person that's cheated on was also, in certain cases, accepts some sort of responsibility.
30:37What were you doing to contribute to that?
30:40Nobody's saying that, you know, they're not responsible for their own behaviors and what they've done.
30:46But you must, in hindsight, you know, you must introspect and say, okay, well, did I deny them?
30:53So, for example, if it's on the woman's side and the woman says, listen, I'm just not on sex anymore.
30:58Yeah.
30:58Right?
30:58I've reached that point.
30:59I'm asexual.
31:00And you continue to show that, you know, you might be a high performer.
31:07You may want it.
31:08But you don't want to go out.
31:09You may express, listen, I really don't want to go out there.
31:11But you're constantly denied, denied, denied.
31:13And your boys might be talking about, I don't know, whatever they may talk about.
31:16No, I'll agree with you, sir.
31:17There's responsibility, but there's also reality, where it's not a matter of responsibility anymore.
31:22Responsibility, you got into a partnership with somebody, but the reality is, sometimes it's completely out of your children.
31:31Because if you're going to be cheated on, you're going to be cheated on.
31:33Like I give an example.
31:34You're working.
31:35You're career-driven, right?
31:37But you're unaware, all right, yes, that you were not physically home there with her or whatnot.
31:43But at the same time, it was always okay.
31:46Again, people cheat because they can.
31:48That's what I, I'll go back to what I said.
31:50And so if you really think, all the factors, we can sit around and talk about what will make somebody cheat.
31:54But it's the step to commit the action is because we can.
31:59In the most base sense.
32:01That's another good point to take a quick break on, to regroup.
32:06A lot to take in there, a lot to take in there on manhood.
32:09And we always say the conversation, the conversation doesn't end here.
32:14The conversation must continue.
32:16This episode must come to an end, but the conversation doesn't.
32:18True.
32:19Take a quick break.
32:20So we had to take a break.
32:33I wish we could start to film somebody behind the scenes in the conversations that we have when we go to break.
32:38Something that we'll certainly look to going forward with other episodes.
32:42Because so much was discussed in that short space of time.
32:46Like, can women really have guy friends?
32:49A topic, a topic.
32:51No.
32:51And by civil side.
32:51We're not, we're not.
32:52No, that's a whole other episode.
32:54We're just saying what we kind of briefly spoke about.
32:56Just like how you mentioned, a quick break is sometimes why women, you know, go looking for their partners.
33:02Because that may sink in or it may not, you know, might have a double entendre.
33:06So it does.
33:07There are many, many other conversations with regards to why do men cheat?
33:13Why do women cheat?
33:14Like you said, can we have, could women have guy friends?
33:17When the woman says, I want to go out with my girls and you're dressed in a certain way and you come home late at night and you're all smelled up and all the rest of it.
33:25You ask yourself, you know, the why in that.
33:29And sometimes they say, well, it's for me.
33:31I want to go out and I want to feel good.
33:33It's like, well, okay, well, I'm not making you feel good.
33:35The other thing is this proverbial shoulder to cry on.
33:38The man who's out there, the predators, might be your own brethren.
33:41We spoke about on the very first episode about being better as brothers and about manhood and about a woman going.
33:48And what does, you ask yourself, what does that man have apart from maybe physical presence?
33:53What does that man have that you are, you are either lacking or stopped?
33:59And that is where I want us to sort of bring this particular episode to a close in terms of having that discussion to really leave people listening to this,
34:10apart from some of the, whether they experience it, whether they be looking at a checklist,
34:15what are you doing to either encourage it or what are you doing that you feel that you need to cheat or you have cheated
34:23and leave them with some sort of, I mean, that's what you're here for.
34:29Leave them with something, I don't know, some kind of, don't do it.
34:33Don't do it.
34:34Let me talk from a point of me being the outside man.
34:37Right.
34:37Right?
34:37Which I've been, right?
34:40Quite recently, actually.
34:41And what I realize is that, especially in relationships, went back to communication,
34:49no one is really saying the real things that they want, especially with their wife.
34:54No, especially with the sexual interests.
34:57You know, as we age, our tastes might change.
35:03Right?
35:03And a lot of the times we fear that our, the tastes change, we can't, I can't just say to my wife of 10, 15 years,
35:12yo, let me, let me try sp***ing this, you know?
35:15She, you know, you, you might be, she might be repulsed at that and you, you might feel ashamed at that.
35:19Oh, you see, you see, I know I'm cutting you off.
35:22Yeah, go ahead, go ahead.
35:23What I was saying before was being honest.
35:25Thank you for cutting him off because where he was going to go with that.
35:27I don't understand.
35:27I thought this is my, I thought this is my.
35:29It is, it is, but this is the amount of beeper I have to do.
35:32Being honest and being with your self-esteem to say what it is.
35:36And this is even, we're going male, female, why in relationship, and you talked about communication before.
35:42Quickly, I had a couple that came in for couples counseling, right?
35:45And they were having serious issues, well, they said serious issues, miscommunications, et cetera.
35:50So I told them, make a list, put honestly what you want from this person, honestly what you want from this person.
35:56You have five minutes and do it, right?
35:58The first thing, the guy was like, you know what?
36:00He want, he want it up, want it up every day.
36:03And he was afraid to tell his wife that because she would think, well, that is all he want.
36:08But after he said it, the wife started cracking up, laughing, laughing hysterical on the girl.
36:13And I was like, what happened?
36:13And she said, you know, I was thinking the same thing.
36:17Why didn't he just talk?
36:18And that always was significant to me because a lot of times, even I remember a man coming for the banker, right?
36:24He come in and the banker went after.
36:26Before you go to that point, just let us just know that that is an anomaly, that you could tell your wife was significant or that I want this, especially a b**** up every day.
36:36As Val had mentioned early on about having one birthday a year.
36:39You know, fortunately I have a birthday a year.
36:42Again, that could be a common misconception.
36:45Exactly.
36:45I don't know if that is an anomaly.
36:47Okay.
36:48Right?
36:48Studies have shown.
36:50Studies have shown.
36:51Right?
36:52So I was saying the guy came in for a tip banker.
36:54Right?
36:54And after maybe half we showed the session, I realized it was a tip banker for the outside woman.
37:00Right?
37:00And this man was literally in the ground crying, you know.
37:04Right?
37:04And I was like, in my mind, I was like, but it's the outside woman.
37:07And then he was explaining all these things that she gave to him that he was missing from his wife.
37:13But then I was like, well, so your wife didn't want to do it?
37:15And then mostly he's like, well, I didn't tell her anything.
37:17Exactly.
37:17I was like, we didn't tell her anything.
37:19I was like, why?
37:20Because he was afraid of X, Y, Z.
37:21How should we act?
37:22Et cetera.
37:22And I could even relate to that.
37:24I remember in one of my relationships where I cheated and it was because I didn't say what I want.
37:29And the other girl, she, as somebody said, anticipate.
37:33But even then, somehow I felt more comfortable with this person to say, well, you know, I like this.
37:38I do like this.
37:39I want this.
37:40Well, we had a snore.
37:41But I didn't.
37:42And I was afraid or maybe even wondering how the person would react if I said that.
37:47And if she says she can't give you what you've asked for, what's your predicament at that point?
37:52Then I'd have to decide.
37:53Because there's love.
37:53No, then I'd decide if I could spend the rest of my life with all this.
37:58Fair enough.
37:58Right?
37:58And if I can't.
38:00A lot of the times, though, some things that we may want, we might not want to do to our wives.
38:06I feel like I might want to do some things.
38:09Even though I could ask her and she may be receptive, I still don't want to do to her because I feel like I want my wife to be my child mother.
38:19Right?
38:20And I don't want to do some vile, despicable things to her.
38:23You know how much couples cannot look at porn together?
38:25Yes, you know.
38:26You know how much couples cannot look at porn together?
38:28Because that's when your real dark side comes up, what do you like?
38:31Exactly.
38:32And then you might ask the question, I wanted that what you wanted.
38:34I was supposed to share.
38:35Now, I might be saying a little utopian here because, to be honest, this is something that even with my wife, that we promise each other that we'll be honest.
38:45Even the dark side of things.
38:47Because if you're hiding a dark side, it means you're still holding something away from somebody.
38:52And if I'm able, first in myself, to face that dark side, right, that's a big step in the esteem who you're talking about.
39:00And then if she's able and we could discuss it because, and I go look at utopian, that's what I think a relationship should be.
39:06We talk about communication.
39:08Because if you had that in you, you're supposed to bring it out.
39:11The Bible says, and some people is misconstrued, and you could argue with me, the marriage bed is undefiled.
39:17And it says that for a reason.
39:18Because if you're sharing with that person, if two become one, you're not perfect.
39:22You have some nastiness in you, right?
39:25And then we could even explore the why.
39:26You know, I like it upside down because, and that is a wonderful sharing moment, you and your wife.
39:31Your wife says, I like it this way because, and you understand.
39:34And if you're secure in yourself, right, and this is what I think a couple should be building towards each other, to be secure with each other, right?
39:42No, you could discover something you don't like, you know, and that's something that's the danger of it.
39:46And that's where we stay away from it.
39:48That's it.
39:48Because in that, and I purposely continue there, Johanse, to say that the fear could also be without insecurity, without insecurities that she may share that dark side with you, or vice versa.
40:01And then your question then might be, so that's what you did in the past?
40:06You know, like this.
40:06Nice day and security coming in there.
40:08That's what I'm talking about.
40:09Now, when women, it's like the question, when a man asks a woman, how many men have you been with?
40:14And women will always say that, or men will say that, whatever number she tell you, multiply that by seven or ten or whatever.
40:19Well, I heard three, but all right.
40:21Well, three, right?
40:22Well, you've been talking to me.
40:23So there's that darkness to anything, but also the question of if, you know, because you could ask, you could show her a dark side, and vice versa, she can then say, because there's nothing like a male or female, both can be jealous.
40:37And you may say something that she may not be open to, but she's jealous of the fact that you may have had those experiences, be it a threesome, be it doing it a certain way, whatever the case may be.
40:47But, again, this conversation, this type of conversation doesn't end.
40:52We will continue it in discussions with manhood.
40:55Yeah, it's definitely ongoing.
40:56But this particular episode, of course, we must come to a close at some point.
41:00And I just want your thoughts on have we accepted horning as part of our culture?
41:06We see it in the music.
41:08We see it in the conversation.
41:09People laugh and joke about it, as long as it doesn't really impact them.
41:12Or it's something that may have happened years and years ago, and you could have moved past.
41:17When you said to me about napkins, I've moved past that.
41:21And so have we accepted horning as part of our culture?
41:26And what are some of your closing, I wouldn't even say thoughts, messages maybe, to persons that you don't leave them open to go and start accusing the other partner?
41:38Because there's one thing that I say, and this is going to be my closing, apart from wrapping up to thank our sponsors, that a therapist, when you do couples therapy, I don't believe in couples therapy.
41:48I'm just putting it out there.
41:50Because you have a conversation, you open up, and then the therapist goes, okay, 45 minutes up, you know, and you're now gone, your wounds open.
42:00And you're now left to your own vices.
42:02You never combine me then if you say, go ahead.
42:04I'm just talking in general.
42:06I'm not talking on my specific.
42:08Well, to answer the question is, I have accepted it.
42:11I think that cheating is just a part of life.
42:15I think that, you know, forever is a very long time, and they must have some sort of, I understand the weaknesses that both parties may have, right?
42:24So, for me, cheating is not a big deal.
42:27I, the woman that I'm looking for is that if she does cheat, one, she cheats on me respectfully.
42:33She, um, she cheats on me with...
42:35Is that an oxymoron, though?
42:37Cheat on you respectfully?
42:38I mean...
42:39You want to find out if we're your partners.
42:43That's what I mean.
42:44Let me find out if we're social media.
42:45Are you speaking more of an open relationship or cheating?
42:48Because if she's cheating, or if she's, if you're okay with it, then she's not cheating.
42:51I feel, I feel that me not knowing about it is cheating well.
42:55Ignorance is bliss.
42:56Right?
42:57If it is that you're doing it for, you know, you understand why you did it.
43:01You, you, you're, you're not just being wild.
43:04You're not, you're, you're, you're, you're taking my feelings into consideration.
43:07You're taking my health into consideration.
43:09You're taking my secrets into consideration.
43:11And you're making adult decisions.
43:14Because some people just do it out of wildness.
43:16And that is where, so, so again, it's the choice of the woman that I'm choosing.
43:22I'll agree with you.
43:24I'm not going to get upset at every person.
43:26As we get older, the dynamic will have to change.
43:28So I'll just quickly say this.
43:29I don't accept it as a cultural thing.
43:31I don't accept it as a thing.
43:32What happens to you?
43:32I'd be like, every individual, every situation, every relationship is special and different.
43:37And they're different circumstances.
43:38Because you could cheat out of revenge because you get cheated on.
43:41There's cheating, there's cheated, and there's having an affair.
43:44There's different levels of what will bring all this together, right?
43:47And make people propel you to go this way.
43:49And then also to justify it, narcissists or not.
43:52So I just believe that once, as we get older, we understand what is required of forming a union with somebody else.
43:59You want to grow old with somebody.
44:01This is not a teenager or somebody in their 20s.
44:02And only time will tell.
44:06Some breakups may have to happen.
44:07Of course, you may find the perfect person.
44:09And then there's self-sabotage.
44:10Because you believe, not a matter of insecurities, but you just do believe this will last forever.
44:17And I'll go back to the mortality.
44:19So before I die, she might lose interest in me.
44:22Maybe.
44:22I've been well good now.
44:24But let me just, and I'll just end up quickly.
44:26Human beings, this is how it is.
44:28Going back to the very primal sense.
44:31We need to feel desired.
44:32We need to feel attractive.
44:33We don't have to be told we're attractive.
44:36But we need to have some sense of before our time has gone, that we're still, like I said, desired by the opposite sex.
44:42And that is the case.
44:44And then that opens the door.
44:45That opens the Pandora's box.
44:47Then any little ability to follow through.
44:49And it depends on one's character, too.
44:51So it is no defining thing.
44:53But, you know, it is what it is.
44:55You want to take it away?
44:57What I'm going to say is easier said than done.
45:00Right?
45:00The fact that, one, yes, I think we as a culture accept honing.
45:05That doesn't mean it's right.
45:07The fact that we're using it with cheating means that we, if we're going by our dictionary definition, we're violating our rule.
45:13Right?
45:13In an illegal manner.
45:15Fair enough.
45:15Right?
45:15So going back to that truth, again, this is easier said than done because I myself am not perfect at it.
45:22But if we're saying that we're with someone, it's best we open ourselves to them.
45:26It may take some time.
45:28It may take some help.
45:29But let the person know exactly what's going on.
45:30Even if it means, you know what, at this stage, we really can't satisfy each other anymore.
45:35Instead of going through cheating because cheating brings heartache in some very easy person.
45:39Cheating, cheating on the outside man, the outside woman.
45:41It creates all these dynamics, especially in the society, because we could go in a whole show about the ill effects of outside children.
45:49Right?
45:49So I could go there.
45:51But what I would say is, I'm going back to that honesty part of it.
45:55If you don't like the person anymore, and many times we're not being true to ourselves, you know.
46:00If you break up with the person, but now after you break up, you're going to the gym now.
46:04You know you're supposed to be going to the gym anymore and taking care of yourself.
46:07All of a sudden, you go and study.
46:09When she leaves, now you do the renovations on the house.
46:12If you understand what I'm saying, we're not being true to ourselves.
46:14Why are you not doing all of that beforehand?
46:16Exactly.
46:17So I would leave with, I don't, you see, if you have to reach a point of cheating, it means it's something illegal to do into the relationship.
46:23If you and a person have an understanding, cool.
46:26And I'm going back to us men, and we're talking about this as man.
46:29Us men, let me say we're not responsible for women's behavior and how they think.
46:33But at least what we could do is be honest with our partner.
46:36Say, darling, I don't like this.
46:38I like this.
46:38I want more of this.
46:39Don't wear this.
46:40Wear this all the time.
46:40You look fat in our dress.
46:41Say, say, exactly.
46:43With love.
46:44Okay.
46:44Right?
46:44With love.
46:45Though your aim is not to hurt.
46:47But you being honest and you laying it out.
46:49Because if we esteem ourselves enough to say, you know what, this, I am Johanse.
46:54I am Val.
46:55These are my standards.
46:57You're not a, you compare and say anybody else, but these are my standards, baby.
47:00This is what I like and I don't like.
47:02But you have the opportunity to take it or leave it.
47:05So I do have to now go outside and look for something.
47:08Great convo, as always, guys.
47:11You know, this is one of those things taking, there's not much more to be said in terms of
47:16me to wrap up this particular episode.
47:19This is something that, again, we keep saying the conversation doesn't end.
47:22We will continue having this conversation, many other areas of the conversation.
47:26And what we've sort of, what I have understood is, once again, to the people who ask all the
47:31time, like, what do we define as a man?
47:34Well, what you heard here today gives you some of those answers, your value system.
47:39And also to both males and females, don't wait until afterwards or till it's happened or
47:45till you moved on to make that change.
47:48Make that change.
47:48If that change is a positive change that would impact the fact that in a positive way, your
47:54relationship to avoid cheating in the first place, then do it while you can.
48:00And as Val had mentioned, our primal, primal needs come down to two things, to be loved
48:06and to know that you are enough.
48:08Once again, Johansi, Val, Niall, Robert, thank you so much for looking at this episode of
48:18Manhood, Why Do People Cheat?
48:20I hope we've answered some of the questions.
48:22I hope we've had some really, you know, really some eye-opening insight into that particular
48:27topic.
48:28We'd like to really thank our sponsors once again, Racetrack and Jameson.
48:33Until the next one.
48:34Manhood, brought to you by Jameson, natural sources since 1922 and Racetrack.