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00:00Respect Her Game, powered by Guardian Media, in collaboration with Anson Makal Group of Companies,
00:10the University of the West Indies St. Augustine Campus Institute for Gender and Development Studies,
00:15Jamaican Mountain Peak Coffee, Tampax, Always, Crown Her, Jameson, the Diabetes Association of Trinidad and Tobago,
00:22the Trinidad and Tobago Cancer Society, and Trinidad and Tobago Association of Psychologists.
00:27This is Respect Her Game, the show where we deal with the sexualization of women and girls in sport.
00:35I'm your host, Kristi Ramnerine. Joining me on set are Khalifa McCullen and Sharice Coffey.
00:42Welcome both to this discussion. This is our last episode in this series.
00:49I can't believe we're here already. It's been very interesting, informative,
00:54eye-opening to see the discussions that we've had so far on this series.
01:02Who do I start with? Khalifa.
01:06Sharice, you're saying thank God.
01:09Khalifa, you're a netballer, now a teacher.
01:13And, you know, the Respect Her Game campaign is looking at how women are treated in sport.
01:21And I really would like to hear your perspective, you know, from your experience being on the court, being at games.
01:29And, you know, what has that experience been like?
01:33Okay, so I'll start from the player's perspective.
01:38Yeah.
01:38I think netball is a sport that people would label as a girl's sport.
01:44So it's for girls.
01:45And by that, people would think, well, we're probably not as athletic.
01:51It's not a male sport. It's not physical or anything like that.
01:54I remember going to the Commonwealth Games in 2014, and somebody sent me a message, and I'm like,
02:01they're not going to come watch netball because it's boring and it's girls playing.
02:04And I'm like, what? Hey, just come watch one game and see what the experience is like.
02:09And after the match, the person messaged back, and they were like, no, you girls are really strong.
02:16You all are tough.
02:16And I think that is what I need to see more from people in general around the female sport.
02:24I think those are the views that people have, and I think that is the narrative that I would
02:28like to see change around girls and women in sports.
02:32Do you think just by being a woman in sport that you were treated differently from the men?
02:39Most definitely we are.
02:41I think that a lot of women would have achieved so many great things in their sporting fields
02:49and haven't been recognized as much as the men would have been or as much as the men are.
02:59I mean, I can speak about netball.
03:02We would have been one of the only team sports or one of the only sports to have won a World Cup,
03:07and that is a massive, massive achievement.
03:09But you don't hear about that or you don't see it at all anyway.
03:12Can you just refresh our minds as to when this World Cup?
03:16That was in 1979, and we are the only Caribbean country to have won the netball World Cup.
03:22So that is a massive, massive achievement, and I guess we don't get that recognition at all.
03:28I mean, compared to men, I mean, they would go play a World Cup, not place anything,
03:32and they come back to people cheering, hey, yeah, you all did so phenomenal.
03:37Well, when, again, comparing it to netball, I mean, that's my sport,
03:41so our girls just went, would have competed in the World Cup qualifiers.
03:46They qualified, and we came back to nothing in the airport.
03:49There was nobody other than parents hugging their kids,
03:52and that was a total difference from the game we saw with Cuba.
03:56Well, there we go, yeah.
03:58And the feedback on social media.
04:00Mm-hmm.
04:00I think we just need that support and people to rally around us the same way.
04:05All right, you know, Sharice, I'm going to bring you into this discussion.
04:10And Sharice is not a current athlete.
04:14She's a former athlete.
04:15Yes, I am.
04:16Yeah, now working at the Arthur Lockjack School Institute.
04:22Sharice, you have a very interesting story about your time of being an athlete.
04:30I want you to tell us about that, your experience.
04:34It was a short time, but it stayed with me, so it was an impactful experience I had.
04:41I would have started doing track in primary school, not with the school, but outside at a club.
04:49And it was great for me.
04:52I get to see a lot of athletes who actually went to Carifton and everything.
04:56I saw males and females supporting each other in sports, and I want to be one of them.
05:02I was one of the shortest and smallest, but I wanted to run with them, so that was inspirational for me.
05:08And I would have started training to do all these things, to try and be a spouse and everything.
05:14And I had an incident at a very young age.
05:19I wasn't out of primary school yet, and I was beginning to develop puberty.
05:24It came at me really early, and a guy made a comment.
05:29You're looking really nice, watching me in my attire.
05:33I would have had on a T-shirt, a tight, appropriate for a child of my age at the time, and you are trying to compliment me on my body.
05:43But I'm a child, and I'm looking at you as an adult, and I don't know how to respond to that.
05:47And I got a very negative vibe off of it, and I was like, this doesn't feel right.
05:52And as I started to go to more sporting events, it kept occurring, and I was like, why is nobody looking at me?
05:58I'm just a child. I'm not an adult.
06:01And that kind of made me not want to be in a sporting activity, and I was getting such a passion for it that I had to leave that passion behind.
06:12And unfortunately, that followed me throughout my teenage years, since I adulted, where you go to probably play music somewhere,
06:21probably a work environment, and the comments come at you.
06:25And I always think back to me being small, how I felt in that time, and I always try to hide myself, not try to speak up,
06:34until I really follow my voice. It's like, this is not right.
06:37So if you're giving me a compliment to say, and it has me uncomfortable, I'm going to let you know it's not good.
06:45It's not good, especially towards young kids.
06:48Yeah, and now, out of luck, Jack, you deal with people of different ages, still students.
06:55Still students.
06:56You were a student at that time. Was there anybody you could have gone to, or did you go to anybody when that started happening to you to speak to?
07:03No, because at that time, I don't know if there was anybody you could go to to really say that.
07:11And even if you do tell an adult, they will address it in private, and not publicize it, as at that time we were growing up.
07:19And you thought it would have been dealt with, but no.
07:23You just speak about it, you think it's addressed, and it comes up again.
07:26But as I'm an adult working at the Lockjack now, I don't have that in our environment.
07:33We are very respectful of each other, males, females.
07:35We don't have to deal with that kind of thing.
07:39And as well as with the students, I really think they don't have that to deal with.
07:43They're in a safe environment where they can focus on their education.
07:47Us in the workplace, we can focus on work, and I don't have to deal with that type of heckling.
07:51Now, Khalifa, you would have been around many young girls, you know, being a netballer.
07:58Has this been something you've heard before from colleagues, from younger girls?
08:05Yes, most definitely, and I heard it from males.
08:08Because now we have males coming into the environment a little bit more because there's mixed netball,
08:14and we have male netball, and sometimes, you know, you happen to walk by and hear the comments
08:19that they would be making about the girls.
08:23And for me, that is where the problem starts, and that is something that we need to deal
08:27with, because in that space, I think sports is a space where people expect to come and
08:33probably leave whatever baggage they have at home or at work.
08:37They just want to come there and feel free, feel open to be themselves, to be comfortable.
08:43And for people that decide or even involved in the same space to be making comments like
08:47that, you know, how do you expect these young girls to feel?
08:50What do you expect them to think?
08:52I mean, they are there to better themselves, to grow as individuals, to grow as athletes,
08:58but instead you guys are focused on their bodies, the way they look, the way they walk,
09:03who is developing in whatever area, and that is not the right way.
09:08So I think something really needs to be done, even for Sharice here, at that tender age,
09:14for her to be having to deal with that, that is a big problem, and not having anybody to
09:18go to as well.
09:20So I think sport administrators definitely need to look at those things and, you know,
09:25put some policies in place to at least can know, okay, hey, if this happens, these are
09:30the people that we can go to and we can trust to deal with situations.
09:34Definitely.
09:35Sharice, you said this affected you beyond childhood.
09:39And I want to go back to childhood and you making that decision not to continue with something
09:46you had a passion for and that you loved.
09:50How hard was that decision?
09:52And, you know, how did that decision affect you growing up?
09:57At my age, I was still under 10.
10:01And unfortunately, I had to do a lot of crewing at that stage in my life.
10:06I was like, okay, this is something adults will probably have to deal with, but it's
10:11happening to me and I don't feel comfortable with it.
10:15And it kind of made me step back from a lot of things.
10:19I didn't want to be a center of attention if I'm competing in a race or if I'm just doing
10:25anything.
10:26I would rather not have attention drawn to me because of how I felt from having a presence
10:31look at me that way.
10:32Like, it's almost like part of your innocence gone.
10:36So I had to tell myself, this is something I probably have to deal with going forward.
10:44And I don't want to deal with it.
10:48And as I grew older, my body kept changing and a lot of things you enter environments where
10:56there are more girls around you, there are more boys around you going to secondary school.
11:01And it's the same thing happening.
11:03The way how they speak about the females, they have to interact with boyfriend and girlfriend,
11:09things that, obviously.
11:10And they're doing a lot of adult things.
11:13They want to hold hands.
11:14They want to kiss.
11:14But it's much more than that.
11:16And even me seeing that made me uncomfortable.
11:19But then I thought to myself, this is probably the norm.
11:22Yeah.
11:23And I wasn't okay with that being a norm.
11:25But it was the norm.
11:26And that's what we had to grow in and keep moving with.
11:30And I just didn't want to bring me a statistic of probably getting pregnant in school or something
11:37getting leaked out there, something getting back to home.
11:39So I tried to keep as reserved as possible.
11:42And it always stuck with me.
11:45I didn't want to be targeted or any way for anybody to give a comment because it made me
11:51uncomfortable at that point in time.
11:54Have you ever had that experience personally?
11:58Personally, no.
11:58But, again, you know, being around other females, I've heard it from them.
12:03And I can or could have in those moments definitely see how those things would have made them feel,
12:09especially when they know, okay, as athletes, they are putting any work to gain muscle this
12:14way, gain muscle that way.
12:15And people can only see them for their bodies.
12:18And on the flip side of men commenting and saying, well, hey, you look nice or whatever,
12:23some men even negatively speak about female athletes.
12:28And their bodies, because some of them are a little bit stronger as females.
12:32It's like, oh, gosh, why are you so big?
12:34Why are you looking like a man?
12:35We have one player in particular, and she's super strong.
12:37She has nice legs, very strong legs, very muscular arms.
12:41And, you know, even some of her teammates are like, you're buff, you're buff, you know.
12:48And as much as that might be funny for them, you know, I don't think that is okay, really,
12:54because you are commenting on her body.
12:56And she might be smiling in the moment, but when she goes home and she looks at herself,
13:01I want her to see an athlete.
13:03I don't just want her to see her, gosh, I'm so muscular.
13:06You're muscular for a reason.
13:07You are putting in the work.
13:08So that is you.
13:10You have an athlete's body.
13:11Yeah, definitely.
13:12I'm proud of it.
13:13Yeah.
13:14I think a perfect example would have been the Olympic was the boxer,
13:18who was criticized for how she looked.
13:21I can't remember her name.
13:22But because people were saying she was a mom, and, of course, she entered the sport as a woman.
13:31And because she didn't look feminine enough, there was social media was going crazy.
13:37I remember that.
13:38Yeah.
13:38I remember that.
13:39About how she looks.
13:40And, you know, for me, growing up in school as well, I remember the same experiences.
13:49I didn't develop fast, so it didn't happen to me.
13:53Yeah.
13:53But, you know, I have my best friend.
13:56She developed very fast.
13:57And there was a nickname for her with breast in the nickname.
14:02Wow.
14:03Yeah.
14:03Wow.
14:04And, of course, she didn't like it at all.
14:07And everybody used to call her by this nickname.
14:11And, you know, of course, at that time, you don't think about the psyche of an individual
14:17and how it affects that individual.
14:21We think it's normal to poke fun at people.
14:26Yeah.
14:26That's our culture.
14:28Yeah, when in turn, it's really harm we're causing to that individual.
14:34And I want to come back to that.
14:37You know, did you have to get any official help, mental help,
14:44or go to a psychiatrist, or did you deal with this on your own with your family?
14:52I didn't go for professional help, but I used to read a lot.
14:57So I would have come across books that would probably go struggling with probably self-image
15:03or probably harassment.
15:05I got names called in school for many different reasons.
15:08Yes, I played on my insecurities.
15:10And as I kept growing, I was like, maybe probably the names I probably got called were probably true
15:15or just anybody noticing something about you, they'll always have to point it out.
15:21Yeah.
15:21And, you know, people think it's just fun and games, but sometimes that actually do stay.
15:26But a lot of women and a lot of males, a lot of guys as well, we can't exclude them,
15:31it stays with them.
15:32And that somehow changes the way they deal with life when they actually leave school.
15:37They either become the opposite of what they thought was good and they want to come as a bad boy
15:43so they can show you you can make fun of me, or sometimes they get into a shell.
15:47And, well, for me, that kind of motivated me to be a better me.
15:53Yeah.
15:54So if I'm in an environment where you're making fun of me, I'm taking myself out of that environment.
15:59I'm creating my own environment, my own support system.
16:02Who wouldn't do that to me?
16:03Because I have my friends, my best friend's a guy.
16:08Love him to death.
16:09He always motivated me from the day we met.
16:12He's been my brother.
16:14So if anybody tries, you know, coming down on me, he's always there for me.
16:17He's always going to defend me.
16:19So that was part of my motivation.
16:20My mom always encouraged me to stand up for myself.
16:25Don't anybody put you down.
16:27You have a name.
16:28You have a voice.
16:29You are an individual.
16:30And don't make anybody make you feel less than.
16:32Don't matter the situation.
16:34So I didn't do therapy itself, but I got therapy from my base, my family, my friends.
16:41We support each other and we motivate each other.
16:44So, you know, I'm laughing to myself because I was telling somebody yesterday,
16:48I feel like I still have brain fog after having twins.
16:53And I was trying to say the word professional and it was not coming out.
16:57And I said official and mental because that word wasn't coming out.
17:01And this is something women have to deal with as well.
17:05You know, part of development stages in life.
17:09Khalifa, I'm going to bring you in here now.
17:12And in terms of the girls, you would have been around teammates and, you know, younger ones.
17:20Is there any kind of help for them if they're going through this type of situation?
17:26So something that I would have recommended definitely in our recent Under21 program is having a psychologist on board.
17:35Because I know those girls, they trust me a lot, but they won't tell me everything.
17:39So I knew that they needed someone that they can go to that was external and outside.
17:45And apart from our usual technical staff that they can talk to about anything.
17:48It would have been confidential and so forth.
17:52So we brought a psychologist on board.
17:55And, you know, I think they would have built a phenomenal relationship with her.
18:00I know a lot of them at the age 18, 19, 20, they are now finding themselves going through a whole lot of changes.
18:08So, you know, they are able to share with her, call her at any time for free, which is good.
18:14You know, and she's able to help them through whatever they are dealing with at the moment.
18:20So I think that is a plus for them.
18:23Yeah, that's wonderful.
18:25If this did not happen to you, you think you would have continued in the track and field?
18:32Sports is a great outlet for stress.
18:35Some people don't have great homes, so they get involved in sports.
18:39And it wasn't a situation for me.
18:41I just love the fact that I get to run.
18:45Because I liked being outside.
18:46I liked being bare feet while they couldn't run track bare feet.
18:49Yeah.
18:49I just liked being out there.
18:51And I was out there with my stepfather.
18:54And he was a coach at a club.
18:57And I just used to see how he used to train them and make them go faster.
19:01And I wanted to go faster, too.
19:02And I used to be my little self trying to outrun these professional athletes.
19:06Can't catch my breath halfway down Brownie Savannah.
19:08But it was fun for me.
19:11And then I let somebody steal that from me.
19:14Yeah.
19:14So it was like almost a regret.
19:17But at the same time, it maybe developed something in me I needed to develop to probably be stronger.
19:23Because I may have probably gone on and probably not known how to step away and defend myself.
19:28If the situation became more than just words.
19:32You know, I had this personal experience recently.
19:34So my daughters, they participated in some school sport.
19:39And there was the Central Games.
19:41And, of course, in the school sport, they wanted to see who's the best to pick them for the Central Games.
19:49And I have two daughters.
19:51One is eight.
19:52One is six.
19:52Both ran their races.
19:54The first daughter came second to last.
19:58And the second daughter came second.
20:00And I was told that when the race was finished, she started doing push-ups.
20:04Saying she needed to become stronger to win the race.
20:10And then she went home, heckling the other one.
20:13Oh, gosh.
20:13Telling her, but you're real slow.
20:17And, of course, when she told me, not thinking about it, I'm like, Zara, you know, Mommy have a lot of medals.
20:23I used to win my races in school.
20:24So I'm there heckling, too.
20:26Oh, my God.
20:27Not thinking this child would feel hurt by it because we're accustomed cracking jokes with each other.
20:35And then I realized, wait, this is affecting her.
20:38And she's telling me, Mommy, I'm not as tall as the others.
20:41And I'm telling her, your height actually doesn't matter.
20:44It's really what you put out there, you know, that goes.
20:47And then I realized, you know, she really wanted to come out in the top three.
20:52It didn't happen.
20:53And we have to be careful anyway.
20:55You know, we speak to her.
20:58So my sister-in-law spoke to my second daughter and told her, do not harass your sister.
21:02And I told her the same thing.
21:04And now I'm like, okay, I have to keep all my childhood memories to myself because, you know, I can't affect my child.
21:13You can.
21:13By simply saying something that I did not think would affect her and what she wants to do.
21:22So they had the central games and the second one ran and she came out fourth in her heat.
21:31So I told her, I said, that's actually really good because you're running against children you don't know.
21:36And I'm seeing now, well, yeah, we can develop this.
21:40You can work on it.
21:40Yeah.
21:41If you love to run, this is something we can work on because you're doing this out of, you know, nothing.
21:47So they haven't trained or anything.
21:49No training.
21:50You never run anything.
21:50So she can imagine how we're training.
21:52How far she can really go.
21:53This is her just putting out what energy she has, which is a lot.
21:59I'm like, I have to come into the street.
22:00I have to.
22:01I have to.
22:01Yeah.
22:02But another, you know, another point in terms of respecting her game, respecting athletes, respecting our children.
22:13You know, sometimes the simplest things we see could affect somebody.
22:17You know, Khalifa, I want you to tell me what you think about this entire campaign.
22:25You know, you're, you've been in that ball.
22:27You're now teaching at UTT.
22:30And what is your take on this campaign, Respect Your Game?
22:34Okay.
22:34So for me, so I am newly introduced to the campaign and I think it's very phenomenal.
22:42I think it needs to be out there a little bit more.
22:44And definitely share it with the girls for them to come and have a look at the entire series.
22:49Because, again, for me, as I told Sharice before we got on here, you know, sharing your story is important.
22:55Hearing people's story is important because you don't know how much that would impact someone else.
23:02You don't know how what you're seeing right now would resonate with anybody, whether it's an athlete, whether it's a student, anybody, any female coming through a program, a school, anything.
23:12So I think this is very important for young girls and women coming up.
23:18And, you know, I guess it was a phenomenal experience being here and sharing, you know, my experiences.
23:24Yeah.
23:25And, of course, Khalifa, I spoke to a couple weeks ago.
23:29Sharice and I only spoke on the phone yesterday.
23:31Sharice was present at a lecture which Dr. Gab Hussein gave on the Respect Your Game initiative.
23:41Dr. Gabriela Hussein, of course, is the one who initiated this entire project.
23:46And Sharice went up to her to tell her her story.
23:50And Dr. Hussein, of course, put her on to me thinking it was an ideal story to share.
23:56And when you heard her speak about the campaign, what did you think?
24:00Well, yesterday we had a women's day panel, a seminar, and when she first started speaking, she gave us scenarios and sports when it comes to music, played, and how it would affect our young girls and anyone and any sports and events, in particular music.
24:20And I was like, yeah, our entire audience there was in agreement, yes, all the mummies, if they weren't a mother yet, you were all nodding and the same thing.
24:29Yes, we agree.
24:30We agree.
24:31And so, like, how come we're now hearing about it?
24:34And I was telling her, I said, this needs to be out a whole lot more.
24:38It's a great message.
24:40She put me on to everything.
24:41And in a few hours, it's like, we need to push this more.
24:44You need more sponsors.
24:45What is it that you need more?
24:47Yeah.
24:47And it's...
24:48You think Clockjack will come on board?
24:50Sure, why not?
24:51Getting that out, yeah.
24:52And your titty?
24:53I hope so.
24:54I hope so.
24:55Put in our two cents right now.
24:59It's great.
24:59It's wonderful.
25:00And you wouldn't believe the impact this would have in the future.
25:07I mean, this is a short series, but I think it should keep going on and on.
25:11Because it's going to help a lot of young women, young girls, even the boys.
25:17It's going to help them so much.
25:19And it's going to change the way they look at themselves, the way they appreciate their
25:24sport even more.
25:25And it's going to be the change that we really need.
25:28We really do need a change.
25:29And you would not think that yesterday.
25:31She told me she was very shy.
25:33Very.
25:34On camera.
25:35Well, she's very natural.
25:36She's a natural.
25:37Yeah, yeah.
25:38I'm having a wonderful conversation.
25:39Look at the difference right now.
25:42And we just have a couple minutes left.
25:44And I just want you to tell me very quickly, you know, what you actually do now at Artel...
25:51A bit about yourself, basically.
25:52A quick bio about me.
25:54Yeah.
25:54I am in our finance unit at the Artel at Jacoba School of Business.
25:59So I am in accounts receivable.
26:00So I deal with a lot of our undergraduates and master's students.
26:07I chose accounting.
26:09It's people curl about the numbers.
26:11It's a stressful job.
26:12But still, we sit in it because we have a goal to achieve.
26:16And I guess we like to see through everything.
26:18We like to reconcile.
26:19So my team at Lockjack, great team I have working with me.
26:24And we are trying to just make our environment better.
26:28And we're trying to do new things.
26:30And I love my team.
26:32I like accounts.
26:34And I'm going to be a great accountant.
26:37And Khalifa, well, we established already that you're a netballer.
26:41But you want to tell me a bit about what you do at the University of Trinidad and Tobago?
26:46Okay, so I'm actually doing my degree program at UTT.
26:49I'm in my final year of my bachelor's of education.
26:53So hopefully I graduate with honors on all of those things.
26:56Those wonderful things.
26:58I hope to go on to do a master's, maybe at UE.
27:02I don't know.
27:03But teaching is my newfound passion.
27:08I mean, I love the coaching.
27:10And coaching is very similar, like very, very similar to teaching.
27:14So the way I coach is the same way I teach.
27:17And, you know, I love, you know, impacting the lives of young students.
27:23And I think that is where you teach.
27:25Pardon?
27:26Where do you teach?
27:26Is it just in the netball association or?
27:30Oh, so no.
27:31So I coach all over.
27:32We have a club.
27:33So we have children from four years old, just young as four, up to, well, we have older ones.
27:39Yeah.
27:40Probably in their 30s.
27:42We have somebody in their 40s as well.
27:44So I coach at our home club.
27:46So there's hope for me.
27:47Yes, of course.
27:50Yes, you know.
27:52So I also work with iChoose Sports as well, helping them with the netball side of things.
27:59So I share netball wherever I go.
28:01Great.
28:02You know, it was really great to have you both on the show.
28:06And, you know, to get this different, I've had those who are responsible for the project.
28:16I've had those who cover the event as well as those who are involved in sporting events, I mean.
28:23And to have somebody who experienced something like you, you know, I didn't think about this angle, but it brought so much insight into this entire discussion.
28:35You know, thank you so much for coming on and sharing with us.
28:39Yes, I know it was hard.
28:41It was hard.
28:42But you were great.
28:43But thank you for having me on the program.
28:47And, Khalifa, the same to you.
28:48Thank you so much for joining us on Respect Her Game.
28:52That's it for Respect Her Game, our final episode.
28:56I'm your host, Christy Ramnerang.
29:07Respect Her Game, powered by Guardian Media, in collaboration with Antimacal Group of Companies,
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29:17Jamaican Mountain Peak Coffee, Tampax, Always, Crown Her, Jameson,
29:22the Diabetes Association of Trinidad and Tobago,
29:25the Trinidad and Tobago Cancer Society,
29:27and Trinidad and Tobago Association of Psychologists.