With Michael Cherrie
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TVTranscript
00:00Manhood, brought to you in part by Reboot Sports Drink.
00:09So welcome once again to another conversation here on Manhood.
00:14Let me get straight into it. Yes, another big topic.
00:17Are we all acting or are we being our authentic self?
00:22Let me say that again.
00:23Are we all acting or are we being our authentic selves?
00:28So we're going to delve into things like imposter syndrome and, you know, moments of whether or not are we sure who we really are.
00:38And age is but a thing.
00:40But to my right, Johanse IODK, behavior change consultant.
00:46To his right, the one and only Michael Cherry.
00:51So many things.
00:53But I mean, the biggest I think we have so far is actor.
00:56Actor, actor, and we'll go into that soon enough.
00:59And to his right, Niall McNeish, provocateur, vibes God.
01:04So are we acting or are we being our authentic self?
01:09Now, before we go into the topic, Michael, it would be remiss of me not to, you know, let who doesn't know, to know,
01:15that you have been doing this for over 20 years in the acting and film industry in Trinidad and Tobago.
01:25And of recent...
01:26Over 30, actually.
01:27Over 30, yeah.
01:28To age myself.
01:30To age, yeah, yeah.
01:31You know, I'm starting to die the bit.
01:33So you're trying to roll back some of the years.
01:35So again, acting.
01:36Are we being authentic self?
01:39Before you go on, I know that I describe you as an actor, but I would like to say you're a talent, a Trinidadian talent ambassador.
01:49Anybody who is take Trinidad talent from here and take it to the world, no matter what profession, even if you're an athlete,
01:56I want to say you're an ambassador.
01:57And I'm giving you that title because I appreciate it.
02:01And I appreciate anybody who is good enough, right, and want good enough and then think themselves good enough.
02:10I mean, that's becoming the imposter syndrome there.
02:12Think themselves good enough to go international.
02:16So I appreciate that.
02:17I appreciate that, my brother.
02:20And of course, we'll go into acting in itself and some of the myths and some of the beliefs and so on of acting that in itself, you know,
02:27are you being your authentic self and how, you know, we've seen actors in the past who use acting,
02:33especially character acting, et cetera, to hide behind things that they're going through.
02:37As we know, you know, we spoke about, you know, MetaQuest and all these virtual reality gadgets
02:43that are putting you into a particular environment or reality that's not your own.
02:48And in certain cases, actors do that.
02:51But I want to focus on the positive aspect of it first before we delve into those things.
02:56Because your accolades, as Johansi just brought up, as a talent ambassador,
03:02recently doing, you know, a big, you know, having a big role in a movie in L.A.
03:09and taking, you know, and flying the Trinidad and Tobago flag.
03:13So, you know, yeah.
03:15So, on Manor, we want to make sure and recognize you for that.
03:19And of course, you know, being here, you know, Mike, you know,
03:21we've known each other for, you know, a good part of that period.
03:26You call, I wouldn't name the, I wouldn't bring up the...
03:29Stop acting.
03:30...two years again.
03:31Say this man.
03:32How old are you really, Robert?
03:34How old are you now?
03:36You're as old as you feel.
03:37Yes, you're as old as you feel.
03:39So, Michael, you know, congratulations.
03:42You know, if you could just, you know, briefly tell us a little bit about what that experience was like
03:45and then, you know, you could sort of get into the topic.
03:47It was really the most professional experience of my life.
03:54You know, getting to work with artists like that, people like, you know, Regina King, Terrence Howard,
04:03Lucas Hedges, the late great Lance Reddick, John Ridley, who wrote and directed the movie.
04:12You know, at first it was, I mean, intimidating, really, because, I mean, you have these images
04:21and you've seen these people's work, you know, and completely blown away, you know, by it.
04:30But, you know, I mean, I guess eventually you get to realize, I got to realize, you know,
04:38it's in me as well, too, that greatness is, that potential for greatness is in me as well, too.
04:45And you just have to bring it.
04:48You are required to bring it.
04:51Yeah, so just being in this sandbox, you know, in this yard that I was invited to,
04:59to play with all these heavy hitters.
05:01People who, I mean, Academy Award winning, Academy Award nominated artists, you know,
05:11and just realizing, like, I guess, like in any interaction, any professional interaction
05:19that you're invited to, you have to bring it.
05:22You have to bring that.
05:24Because you're a heavy hitter, too.
05:25Because I'm a heavy hitter, too, I've been, you know, and I have to say,
05:31I have to be really honest, I just kind of, like, automatically went to imposter syndrome
05:36because I was kind of like going, oh, well, no, that's, I'm sure, I'm not, I'm not.
05:42And it was like, yeah, that's false modesty, right?
05:46You sink or swim.
05:47Sink or swim.
05:48You have to sink or, you know, and, yeah, yeah, there's a level of expectations.
05:55In working with people like that, I mean, it's, it, I'm going to get into a little secret here
06:05with big name actors, but they kind of don't like to rehearse, actually.
06:11They just like to come to the set and just bring fresh.
06:13What are you rehearsing for?
06:15Exactly.
06:16Exactly.
06:16Right.
06:17But is it rehearsing professionalism, though, and is it that they just trust in themselves
06:22to be able to?
06:22Well, rehearsal is professionalism, but I guess it's, it's your level of preparedness.
06:32Got you.
06:32I mean, you know, you, you can rehearse and prepare by yourself, your own private homework,
06:37and, and, and then with the, with the, the, the rest of the cast.
06:43And that works a lot in theater.
06:47I discovered in film, you know, whereas in theater, the, the, the, the performance is
06:53built rehearsal, by rehearsal with the company, with the cast.
06:57The performance is built, I realize, in a film, take after take.
07:02Okay.
07:03That is where, you know, because.
07:05The rushes.
07:06Yeah, the rushes, and, and because of, you know, a film of that level of, of, of budget,
07:15where they, they're filming like one and a half pages a day, okay, so it's like, yeah,
07:22you're better, you're better know your lines.
07:24I mean, you know, so, so, so, so, and, and, and with, with the different kind of coverage,
07:29long shot, close up, medium, whatever, two shot, whatever, you're, and take after take
07:35of each of those shots, you kind of build the performance and becomes more true and
07:40you discover more things and you make different choices as an actor and the director would
07:44come and whisper something in your ear and you would try that.
07:48I like that.
07:48I like that take.
07:50Yeah.
07:50So, so did you feel like on the first day that when you got there with, surrounded by
07:54all these acclaimed names that you were less than, especially coming from such a small
07:59island and all of these are American.
08:01Of course, I was meek like a mouse.
08:04I mean, you know, I, and, and, you know, also not being part of that culture, part of that
08:11big star, you know, culture.
08:13You, you, you, there's, I would say meek might be too meek a word, but there's a, there's
08:20a humility you have in terms of, okay, I don't know everything.
08:24Let me kind of like learn, let me absorb and stuff.
08:26But, you know, you, you, you, you bring, you bring whatever quality it is you have, you
08:34know, to, to, to, to the work, whether, whether it's an empathy, a vulnerability, a focus, a
08:41sense of imagination, um, you know, a sense of courage, you know, in a sense, in a way
08:47you kind of have to have all those things.
08:49Was it like a baptism?
08:51So like a baptism of fire, because like you, like you mentioned, you know, the, the other,
08:55the top actors, like I always remember Tom Cruise, people say that you'd come on the
08:59set and he was a one take kind of guy.
09:01Right.
09:01So as you need to, you know, you're saying that as you, as you take more takes, you know,
09:06the, the character comes out more and more and more based on the, only because of the
09:10experience and the, and the years of doing it at that level, you know, they, they've probably
09:16had to do it less and less and less, whereas this is your first time coming in, coming
09:21into that environment.
09:22So, I mean, it's not the first time in working in film.
09:24Right.
09:25But, but, but with a Terrence Howard and a Regina King and a set that has, you know, all
09:30these nice apples and grapes and all these other things, probably somebody bringing it
09:33for you in a trailer.
09:34Um, how do you, how, what are some of the things that you can share with our audience that
09:39you did to dig deep to, to sort of settle yourself?
09:43Because you would have come in knowing that with some level of imposter syndrome, but
09:47you were able to overcome that quickly to do what you did to recognize that, no, you
09:52know what?
09:52I deserve to be here.
09:53And, and what are some of the things that you may have, um, carried out to, to get to
09:59that level?
10:00To, you know, to.
10:01Well, well, really, really shifting, shifting the focus from, from me and how was I feeling
10:10and, and, and, and how's I looking and everything to what it is I want to do to my scene partner.
10:17I think that takes all the, all the pressure off of you and, and, and for, for, for any
10:25kind of acting, I think, you know, what, what it is I want to do, how I have an objective,
10:32I have something as a character, I want something from that other character and I want that thing
10:41from the other character by doing something to that character.
10:44So that activates you that, that, you know, and so you're not thinking of, go, is my hair
10:50all right, is my, you just kind of like focus.
10:53And, and, and that, that really kind of brings out, you know, brings out that, uh, brings
11:01out what is needed for, for the audience to go from to, wow, engaged.
11:08Can I say it bring out your authentic self?
11:10Because what you said is, it, you came out of yourself, come outside.
11:15And I realized sometimes we, we think everything is about us, right?
11:22When we enter a room, sometimes nobody's studying you, you know, right?
11:25So we think everything is about us.
11:27So we have to put on this persona, put on this, this face and this image, but nobody
11:32in studying you.
11:33And when you come out of yourself, sometimes, right?
11:36Sometimes.
11:37And when, when you come out of yourself and you concentrate on what you want to accomplish
11:41in the room or the scenario or the situation, then you're able to be who you truly are.
11:46Because whatever skills, talents you have to bring out to accomplish your goal is who
11:52you are.
11:52So I, I like how you said that there, and I mean, I just put some icing on the cake.
11:56No, but you see, Johansi, what you said there really, really struck a chord because, you
12:01know, that, that's where, that's where you really, um, you know, in a similar, similar
12:05circumstance, of course, not at that level, but just to touch on between what you said
12:09and Johansi said, you know, you hear the term, get over yourself, you know, and there are
12:13times that I go into a place really, whether, whether it be out of cockiness or just insecurity,
12:21um, self-assurance, I mean, there can be positives and negatives to it.
12:25You know, you go in and you say, oh gosh, look, this is happening or, you know, my time
12:28might be this or, and you go in there and the way I get over it is I tell myself, get
12:33over yourself, you know?
12:35Yeah.
12:35But what does, who you feel?
12:37You know what I mean?
12:38Like that people don't even study in you or really and truly, they want to hear what
12:42you have to say if you, depends on what you're invited for.
12:45So if you, if you invited to say a party, they're not, I mean, of course you're not
12:50going to go looking, going in rags, but if you're there, you could be your authentic
12:54self and be vibes, you know, like vibes got here and you go there and you could dance
12:58and you could, people, people more importantly will always remember, they don't remember what
13:03you give them or, or what your status is.
13:06They remember how you made them feel.
13:07That is true.
13:08Right?
13:08So therefore, if I could go into a room and make somebody feel good or I, you know, or
13:14bring some vibes to a party, you think they care otherwise?
13:17But, but I, so I, I, what you said really touched me because, you know, I still struggle
13:21with that sometimes.
13:22I get over myself.
13:23The key, go ahead.
13:25No, no, no, feel free.
13:26I was just saying that the key to confidence is doing, you know, your first time you drive
13:34a car because you've never like, you know, it kind of, it breaks, you know, especially
13:41if you're driving a stick, whatever, clutch, you know, but the more you do it, the more
13:48you're confident.
13:49So which knowledge is what really confidence stems from?
13:54Knowledge and I think more so practical knowledge that, that you're getting your body into, into
14:00the thing.
14:01Muscle memory.
14:02Yeah.
14:02Muscle memory.
14:03So muscle memory and knowledge are really key things, but I know we need to go to a break.
14:10Guys, we were just really happy and excited to have Michael Cherry on the set.
14:15Um, the movie that he shot recently is called Shirley.
14:18If you haven't seen it, check it out.
14:20We'll be back from the break.
14:32So thank you for staying with us here on manhood.
14:35So the topic today is, are we all acting or are we being our authentic self?
14:40So Johanse, Michael, Niall, um, we're talking about, um, really digging deep.
14:47So we, we, we, we spend the first segment really talking about Michael's experiences and
14:51how it sort of comes into the topic that we are about to get granule into and take a deep
14:56dive.
14:57So let me, um, first off, we, we use the word quite often and, um, let's make sure we
15:02get the meaning behind it.
15:03So what is imposter syndrome?
15:05Imposter syndrome is the condition of feeling anxious and not experiencing success internally
15:11despite being high performing in external objective ways.
15:16So despite being high performing in external objective ways, you feel a sense of anxiety
15:22or less than.
15:23So this condition often results in people feeling like a fraud, a phony and doubting their abilities.
15:31So with, with that being said, Michael, you brought up when you said that in getting into
15:38your role, you had to go into the, what the purpose of you being there was in terms of
15:45and becoming that actor.
15:47So I know Johanse found it, that that was being your authentic self, but is, is that then
15:53being authentic or you then having to be in a particular environment and say that you're
16:00something else, like put on a mask almost to be that person?
16:04So are you then still, almost distracting himself to be authentic as well?
16:09To be authentic and putting on a mask, which is still yourself.
16:13So even, even doing that and then being great in the end, which when, when you look at the
16:17movie you would see, it was still yourself.
16:20So you may not feel that, wow, I, I, I sort of, I'm a phony.
16:24I, I pull this one off, but you took yourself there.
16:29And I think, I think that's, that's, that's, that's the paradox of acting or, or, or, or,
16:35or the irony of it.
16:36Uh, for me, um, in walking in someone else's shoes, no, in, in, in, in, in a sense, I guess
16:46living someone else's life because, um, a great acting teacher by the name of Sanford
16:52Meisner, um, defined acting as living truthfully under imaginary circumstances.
16:58Ooh, love it.
17:00Yeah.
17:01Yeah.
17:01Yeah.
17:01Say that again, say that again.
17:02One more time, one more time, one more time to camera, one more time to camera.
17:05I love that to know.
17:06Sanford Meisner's defined acting as living truthfully under imaginary circumstances, which
17:13we've been doing since children.
17:15When we play in police and thief, uh, and.
17:18Cowboys and Indians.
17:19Cowboys and Indians, mommy and daddy, whatever, you know, doctor and nurse, whatever.
17:23Yeah.
17:23Um, you know, that we are doing that to, I guess, in a way, probably subconsciously understand
17:30what it's like to be a police, what it's like to be a thief, what it's like to be mommy,
17:34what it's like to be daddy, what it's like to be, you know, Indian, what it's like to
17:37be a cowboy, whatever.
17:38Right?
17:39Um, but I think in making, in a sense, in making that leap to, to, to transform and to,
17:47to, to, to tell that character's story, to live that character's life, for me, anyway,
17:53and I think for a lot of actors, you're, you're, you're, it, it comes back around, you're kind
17:56of like discover something about yourself because I think you have to, well, the, the way I,
18:03I approach the, the work anyway, I, I have to, I have to find an empathetic base of character.
18:11I have to connect what is about, what that character is going through that I have gone
18:18through, or that I can empathize with.
18:24Right?
18:25So in, in, in, in, in making that leap to your career, you kind of like discover, um, something
18:30about yourself, you know?
18:32So, so, so does that transition into your, do you take that into your regular life as
18:39well?
18:40Some of those things, do you, do you, not, not only what you find, find about yourself,
18:44but also in how you cope in the same way for acting like that mask that you put on, are
18:49you able to transition and translate that into your regular life?
18:53Well, I think we're, I think we all act.
18:55I think we all act.
18:57I mean, yeah, it's something that we, we, we probably were really good at.
19:02As I say, when we were kids playing, because in a sense, that's what acting is playing and,
19:09and playing is, it's been said to be the favorite way of the mind to learn is through play.
19:17Um, but, but yeah, I mean, the, the, the way, the way you would ha, you know, you would
19:26communicate and how the boys on the block is only the same way you would do with your wife
19:31or, or, or President Kangaloo, you know, it's, it's not.
19:37So are we, I was being.
19:37We just, you didn't answer the question.
19:40I didn't?
19:40Yeah.
19:41This is yes or no.
19:42You ask that question, but the answer is yes or no.
19:45What was the question again?
19:46If, if, if, if you are this, if you take, take these lessons learned or skills adapted to
19:51and adopted in acting, do you, do you take that into your regular life outside of?
19:58Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, definitely.
20:01So now, now that you've answered that, if you're okay with that, you know, with regards to the,
20:06so is it that being different versions of yourself, and, and, and this is something I'd like you to
20:11chime in on also what you mentioned to me on the break, um, being different versions of yourself
20:16in different environments, be it with her excellency or be it with the, the wife, the significant other,
20:21or your, or your, or your MD, is that, is that acting or is it versions of our authentic self?
20:30Um, I think it's both.
20:32I think, I think, I think, I think in a way, I act, I think acting, I think acting, I think acting
20:44in a sense is discovering versions of, of our authentic selves.
20:49Hmm, acting is discovering versions of the authentic self.
20:53Yeah, by dropping some real nuggets here to the earth.
20:56No, but you see, I, I don't know if some of these things are saying oxymoronic or highly philosophical.
21:01We talked about before, if it's high science.
21:03High science.
21:04Right?
21:05I think it's high science because, you know, are you being, is that still being true to yourself?
21:10Listen, this is really interesting, you know, because we often ask ourselves, who are, who am I?
21:16Who are you, right?
21:18And I've heard so many different theories, so many different things.
21:22You are not your job.
21:23You are not your, your race.
21:24You are not your, your profession.
21:26You are not, et cetera, et cetera.
21:27And, but then who are you?
21:29Then there's the theory, you know, you are, you are the spirit, right?
21:32Not, not, not the flesh.
21:34Then you, you are one with God.
21:35So then you are God.
21:36Then you are so, so many different things.
21:39Right?
21:40And I think.
21:42What about some of your experiences?
21:44Right?
21:45I would have gone with culmination of your faith.
21:47Yeah, that to culmination of your faith.
21:48See, you see, we have so many different, different theories.
21:52I'm using theories first about who we are.
21:55And listening to it, sometimes I get exhausted because then who, who are you?
22:01Who am I?
22:03And sitting here listening to you and listening to this conversation right now, I'm thinking I should just enjoy myself, you know?
22:10Right?
22:11You should just enjoy yourself.
22:14You're not here for a long time.
22:15Right, exactly.
22:16But, but authentically, and here's where I get in with authentically, meaning that however you choose, this is a personal thing.
22:24This is not anybody's judgment on you.
22:26However you choose to interact to the world should be your authentic self.
22:30So if, as you're saying, with, with your wife, you, you, you, you interact specifically with the child, with the president, with the, et cetera, et cetera.
22:39You choose not that somebody tell you how to do it.
22:42And there's, there's my, my, my caveat.
22:44It's not that, um, society say a husband's supposed to act as soon as you're doing that with your wife versus you choosing how to interact with your wife.
22:53You choosing how to interact with the president, but it's all you.
22:57So then you being, uh, that line you used just now, Karen, right now, you're learning yourself through acting.
23:04I simply find it, you said, the way you discover yourself is through playing different ways.
23:08Yeah, yeah, yeah.
23:09Remind him, Michael, remind him.
23:10You're learning yourself through acting.
23:11He's a freestyle lad.
23:11Yeah, he's a freestyle lad.
23:12That was a hard little bit.
23:14That was a hard little bit, you know?
23:15Anyway, good thing it's been recorded, but, but I like that.
23:18Like, discovering yourself through acting different roles.
23:21You choosing how you want to interact with the world, you, you will discover yourself.
23:25But I feel like we're skipping a, skip, a, skipping a step simply because it's one way to interact with the world, how you want to, right?
23:32But, but, if you're ignorant to yourself, like, as in, it's of men who treat their wealth horribly.
23:40Nah, but that's how you'll find it.
23:42But, but you don't know better.
23:44Your upbringing, you don't know better.
23:45You have no clue of.
23:47You can't pray or religion if you don't, if you don't know about the religion.
23:50You can't say, well, what else?
23:51Well, then, like, sell your authentic self, you know, because that's how you discover yourself by just, by being, if you pretend, right?
23:59Because, okay, if you're ignorant of something, then you could only be that.
24:03You can't be anything else.
24:04Agreed, agreed.
24:05Right?
24:05And in acting, nah, let me not say acting.
24:09In being your ignorant self, that's how you'll discover knowledge.
24:14So, so let's, let's change this up a little bit then.
24:16About, we start off by saying, are we all acting or being our authentic self, right?
24:23So how about taking your point about if ignorance of something is still being your authentic self, because that's all you know, and you don't know any, any difference.
24:34And therefore, if somebody asks who you are at that point, that's what you know.
24:38So if you grew up in a culture, an environment of, you know, treating women a specific way or having a certain outlook or choosing a particular religion,
24:47right, that is, as far as you're aware, that is the world, right?
24:51So maybe we should be asking ourselves, are we being our best self?
24:56So you might be, because your authentic self is not necessarily your best self.
25:00So if you go on a path of searching, then in that search, say that you left that particular country or that environment,
25:06you might realize that, wow, okay, hold on, these things aren't okay.
25:11And therefore, if you then choose to still continue down that path, that could still be your authentic self, but it's not being your best self.
25:18But if you then self-actualize and become something that is seen, whether it be in the world or your feeling or your spirit or to the almighty,
25:29then you become your best self, if that's your journey, if that's what you decide.
25:33Okay, so let me ask a question and if that's the case, because we're just talking about imposter syndrome and there are reactions from anxiety.
25:44You get anxiety, you have imposter syndrome, but you act on this anxiety that might have you treating someone horribly.
25:51Because now I want to feel more like a man because I'm feeling, I'm feeling smaller.
25:56But that isn't a man. That isn't a man.
25:58No, no, hear him out.
25:59What the saying is, I am now feeling smaller because of my imposter syndrome, right?
26:04To correct that mentally for myself, I have to swell up bigger or treat someone in a way to make myself feel better, right?
26:13Which is a horrible way.
26:14Horrible.
26:14In his head, however, he's unaware that I am going through imposter syndrome right now.
26:20He's only feeling the anxiety or whatever is going through his mind to, you know, to rectify that moment.
26:28Now, for me, that person is pretending or acting or putting on a face, right?
26:35He's unaware that he's doing it, but he's doing it all the same.
26:40So I can't, I can't, I can't use that as, how can he internalize, okay, maybe let me just be a better version of myself.
26:48Nah, nah, listen, I love this conversation.
26:50To be a better man.
26:52Because, because, okay, you're ignorant of something.
26:56You're ignorant of being an imposter, right?
26:58Imposter syndrome.
26:59So in the moment, you can't self-correct because you don't know.
27:03Right.
27:03But you're reacting to what you feel.
27:06What you feel is real.
27:07Correct.
27:07So then you're not acting.
27:08So if you're, if you're, if you're correcting first, so in the moment, I'm using your example.
27:12What you feel is perceived.
27:14Nah.
27:15Well, it's real to you.
27:16It's real to you.
27:16Listen, I feel this how, is this how Plato and Socrates and everyone, they have, having the conversation used to be, it's sung in.
27:23All right.
27:23So I hope you're still here with us.
27:27This is what I'm taking from this.
27:28And this is not my ending.
27:30I'm taking from this is that we could, we only have choices.
27:36In every situation, we have a choice.
27:39And we have a choice.
27:41The choice could be based on different factors.
27:43Factors, sometimes from outside or inside.
27:45So external versus internal locus of control.
27:50And I think a good definition coming from this is being your authentic self means it comes from an internal locus of control.
28:01So however it is expressed, we can't predict that.
28:04And we can't necessarily judge that from the outside.
28:08But if in a moment, let me use your scenario, the guy not feeling much of a man.
28:14And he don't know why he's not feeling much of a man.
28:16So he does something violent or abusive.
28:18He is being his authentic self in that moment.
28:21Once it is, that's his decision.
28:24So it's not that mommy tell him to do that or his partner tell him to do that.
28:29He chose to do that even from his limited scope of knowledge.
28:33He is being himself.
28:36What do you all think about that?
28:38You know, just going on what you were just saying there.
28:44A lot of psychologists say, I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, that the mask can also be, you know, whether it's the private mask or public mask, is the coping mechanism.
29:02It can be referred to as a coping mechanism.
29:05I agree.
29:05So, like, if, you know, if you were, say, for example, you know, raising a violent home and you kind of encounter conflict, you know, whether with yourself or you might want to, you might want to people please.
29:30You might want to, you know, kind of pacify or you might want to fight or you might want to run, right, away from the conflict.
29:41So, again, I mean, and, again, a lot of that is learned from our formative years, from our childhood years, you know, how, what is the coping mechanism?
29:56You know, what is the acting, you know, you know, if, if, if, if I am passing through customs with something that I should declare and I joined in, not declare line.
30:09We've all, we've never done that.
30:14We speak for yourself.
30:15But, you know, you, you, you, you're raised in a household where, you know, if you had anything contraband, you know, from, you know, pornography to drugs or whatever, and that, that, you know, your parents would react in a certain way.
30:33If they found out, if they found out, you had such contraband things, you know, you might put on that, that, that coping mechanism or that acting for the customs officer when you connect with that, you connect with how you get past mommy back in the day and you just use it.
30:50Listen, that's really interesting because you say coping, right?
30:55So lying can be a coping mechanism, right?
30:59And we could argue because you're lying, you're not being your authentic self.
31:03But if you choose to lie and you use lying as a technique to get what you want, then are you being your authentic self?
31:10Because if I know I don't need to, if I don't declare and I put on a sad face, I just gave you an example.
31:15I will get what I want, then it could be argued as being my authentic self.
31:20But then maybe if I lie, again, and that's why I say this is interesting because what I'm seeing here is, and the question is, are you an actor or being your authentic self?
31:30And this is manhood and we're talking about being a man, right?
31:34Being your authentic self as a man, I think, is really important because that's how you discover who you are.
31:40And before you want to, this is me, my opinion, before you want to provide and protect for a family, you have to know who you are.
31:47Because if you're discovering that while having the pressures of, let me say, a wife first, then a child, right?
31:54That's in itself because your wife will challenge you.
31:57For sure.
31:57Right?
31:58And I think that's what a woman is there for, to challenge, is to make sure it's your authentic self.
32:03So if you don't know who your authentic self is or at least have a great idea of it, your wife will mash you up, right?
32:09Or any woman, actually, who, and the thing is, even, especially when they care about you, they will mash you up.
32:14Far less a child.
32:15A child will ask you some questions and notice some things, right, that you don't even, you think you're hiding.
32:22And a child will see because a child to me is a lot more emotionally intelligent than an adult.
32:27So I'm saying as a man, know who you are.
32:31And to do that, even though you may not know everything, at least you're expressing yourself authentically in the moment.
32:38It could be wrong, right?
32:41But at least there's a saying, it's better to be sure than to be right.
32:45So we have to go to a break.
32:48And I want us to think about this during the break and to our viewers and listeners.
32:55If you're lying and you know that you're lying to do it, you're being your authentic self, yes.
33:01But again, are you being your best self?
33:04Are you being the self that you really want?
33:06So even though it's authentic, it is you at that point.
33:09Is it really who you want to be?
33:11You know, are we, do you want to be that liar?
33:14Do you want to be in that position?
33:16So that's something to think about.
33:17We take a short break.
33:18When we come back, we continue to talk about, are we all acting or are we being our authentic self, our best self?
33:25Think about it.
33:26Welcome back, everyone.
33:38We are here on Manhood and we are talking about the authentic self versus acting.
33:47You know, what, you know, what is our true self and, you know, what is the self that we are, you know, pretending, putting on a performance for, right?
33:59And of course, I'm here with the boys.
34:04Robert Johansson.
34:05Robert Johansson.
34:06No, I like the boys.
34:07I like the boys.
34:08The men.
34:09You were speaking at the break about, you were telling us about Tony Hall, because as we try to really have an understanding of this mask that we put on.
34:18Right.
34:18Yes.
34:19Tony Hall, God rest his soul, had a really amazing theory with regard to Trinidad culture.
34:28We got a mask culture in Trinidad and Tobago, where he said that for 363, sorry, days of the year, we are playing a mask.
34:45Okay.
34:45You know, whether that mask is doctor, lawyer, teacher, postman, whatever.
34:53And for Convalent Monday and Tuesday, that is when our true authentic selves come out.
34:58So in other words, in other words, when we put on the paint and put on the costume or the mask or masqueraders, right, that is us actually getting the opportunity to be our true self.
35:13To be our true selves, to play ourselves.
35:15Because, is it because we get to be unseen at that moment?
35:20Is it that we can't be recognized?
35:24I think very true for Juve, for Juve, when we cover ourselves with black paint and mud and so on.
35:33And there used to be actually an old-time saying where in Carnival, someone from the street would come up to you in your masquerade, masqueraded, so I would say, mas, mas, mas, I see you or mas, mas, I recognize you.
35:54You know, even though you're in your regalia, you're still seeing you.
35:57Like a catch you.
35:58A catch you, yeah.
35:59We talked a lot about acting and authentic self and, you know, from your experiences on the global front at that level, you know, and its purest form, which is actually acting.
36:14And then we brought it back to how it relates and connects in our lives.
36:18And on a general, you know, having a general idea of imposter syndrome and what that means.
36:23But what about here in Trinidad and Tobago?
36:26What, you know, how, let's talk a bit about how we in Trinidad and Tobago wear these masks and how that's...
36:34That's long.
36:35First of all, we have a word for it, mama guy.
36:37First of all.
36:39That's what...
36:40Yeah.
36:40Hey, boy, are you trying to be like you when I grow up, baby?
36:43All that is just, you know, that's just bulls**t that we just tell each other.
36:48We have a real a**kissing culture here as well.
36:52Very people-pleasing.
36:54And maybe that's why...
36:55Passive-aggressive.
36:56Very passive-aggressive.
36:58Very, very passive-aggressive.
37:00True in the words.
37:01Unnecessarily so.
37:02And it's always...
37:03No, it's not necessary.
37:04Being passive-aggressive.
37:05Yeah.
37:06Why?
37:06Why?
37:07Because...
37:07So, this is my theory.
37:09Because a lot of our history...
37:11So, I use the slavery part of history.
37:14Trinidad and Tobago onions, we...
37:17I don't know if I had Tobago onions in that because they had a slightly different history, right?
37:22But let's use Trinidad for all intents and purposes.
37:25We were passive resistance.
37:27We weren't active resistance.
37:29Like how Jamaicans were the active resistance.
37:32Haiti was active resistance.
37:33So, we have a culture of being passive resistance.
37:36So, we didn't like it, you know.
37:38We sure didn't like it.
37:39But we're doing it in a smart way.
37:41We're doing it in a way that's not obvious.
37:43We're beating around the bush with it.
37:45Which, of course, we see now from clips.
37:47So, right?
37:47You know, all the Indian news back...
37:50Double entangles.
37:50Right?
37:51To social media comments.
37:52Even so.
37:53So, to memes.
37:54So, now we are meme factories for being passive-aggressive.
38:00So, being passive-aggressive is also putting on a mask, right?
38:03Not really saying what it is because, I don't know...
38:07Sometimes, you be passive-aggressive and it go over the person's head.
38:10Because there's so much height to use the person to even know what they're saying.
38:13And the other thing is, we get vexed with the person when they don't understand what we're
38:17throwing in the corner now.
38:19Right?
38:20And when you said it...
38:21Read between the lines kind of thing.
38:22It's like...
38:22Which is dutishness, you know.
38:24But in a way, in a way, sorry to cut you, the...
38:30But are you sorry?
38:31Are you really sorry?
38:32Was that you being passive-aggressive?
38:33Like, you're cutting, but you're not really sorry about it.
38:36I don't care.
38:37Now, I'm going to talk.
38:37I'm going to talk.
38:38Correct.
38:38That's what we're talking about.
38:40That's what we're saying.
38:42That's what we're talking about.
38:42That's your authentic self.
38:44Who says, sorry, yo, I'm cutting you.
38:46I have a point to make right now.
38:48But, you know, actually, I'm going to cut across the point.
38:50I'm going to cut across now.
38:51Which is, I remember there was a scene, there was an argument scene between myself and Regina
38:58that, to me, was, like, the hardest scene for me to shoot.
39:02Because it was a scene where we was, like, literally talking over each other.
39:06Literally.
39:06And, you know, nice middle class, you know, CIC-educated, you know, Catholic boy from...
39:12You know, we don't do those things.
39:13You're at a 20-CIC, okay.
39:15Yeah.
39:16Oh, you're from one of the other schools.
39:17Yeah.
39:19That's part of my authentic self.
39:21She is.
39:23But we don't really...
39:28I mean, maybe we do.
39:29Maybe I'm in a bubble or something.
39:31But of talking over each other kind of thing.
39:34I was, you know...
39:35So, like, when Regina...
39:37I mean, Regina just, you know, kicked my ass all the time.
39:40It's like, you know...
39:41It's like, Michael, you're not getting any lines.
39:44And it's like, she talking.
39:47This is Regina King.
39:49She talking.
39:49You know, she talking.
39:50I was just going...
39:53You know.
39:57But to the point, the original cut, which was the...
40:02What are you talking about?
40:03We come from, or the people of African descent who came here and, you know, became Coralized
40:11like everyone else.
40:14We came from the Yoruba tribe.
40:16The Yoruba tribe is very proverb, very kind of...
40:20Teachers, counselors.
40:22Yeah, and doing it in a very kind of, like, a parable kind of way.
40:30Anansi.
40:31Came from Yoruba tribe.
40:32Perfect.
40:33Perfect.
40:33Right?
40:33So that is probably in our DNA.
40:36Yeah.
40:36That passive-aggressive.
40:37Is that where the whole thing now comes?
40:39Because, I mean, we see many things happening in Trinidad and Tobago.
40:41We're not going to call any names as to what those things are.
40:44But we have a culture of almost, like, the people, you know, where we say, we like it
40:49so.
40:49So we're being passive-aggressive to other people and we ourselves are not doing anything
40:53about it, but we are angry with people for not doing anything about it and we are following
40:57in the same suit.
40:58And we turn around and say, yeah, well, we like it so.
41:00And, you know, Carnival will come around or, you know, another elections and, you know,
41:05have Roman Roti and all the rest of it.
41:08And we just move on with life as it is.
41:13You know, complaining, sending memes.
41:16Because, you know, we are meme mafia.
41:18Yes.
41:19We are the best in the world.
41:20Within seconds, we have turned over some of the best memes with regards to something.
41:25And in that passive-aggressiveness, nothing is actually done.
41:28We didn't adapt because during slavery, passive resistance had its value because it was a way
41:38to send signals without the slave master knowing, et cetera.
41:42But we no longer have the slave master.
41:45It's Trinidadians running Trinidadians.
41:47So, me being passive-aggressive at Trinidadian will only lead him or her to be more passive-aggressive.
41:52And then we're passive-aggressive and passive.
41:54And then notice us in that we're so passive, nothing happening.
41:59For sure.
41:59Nothing happening in the country.
42:01Right?
42:02And knowledge is power.
42:04So, the fact that we're highlighting it, nothing happening in the country because we're all skirting around the issue.
42:11We're not saying, this is s***.
42:13We're not saying what we truly mean to each other.
42:15But we feel.
42:16And another thing that, what's the opposite of imposter syndrome?
42:19So, confidence, recognition, you know, self-belief.
42:24It's called the Alan-Kurin syndrome where we overthink or we think that we're actually better than we are.
42:31We more...
42:31Is that narcissism?
42:33No.
42:33Well...
42:34So, I mean, there are probably other ways...
42:36Sorry, it's the Dunning-Kruger effect.
42:38Oh.
42:38And it's contrary to the imposter syndrome.
42:40Somebody went through Google.
42:41And it's characterized by an overestimation of one's abilities due to lack of self-awareness.
42:48And I think a lot of children are nice to have that.
42:50So, let me...
42:51Just a touch on what your hands say before you cut them off, which is okay.
42:54Because, I mean, if you thought your point was more important at that point, then that's why we don't have to say sorry.
43:00I agree.
43:01Because if your belief is that.
43:02But I am saying, I mean, but I will choose not to be cut off because I want to make a point.
43:07You know?
43:08You know?
43:11I see you, Regina.
43:13And I'll raise you a Terrence Howard.
43:15I'll raise you too.
43:16I'll raise you a Terrence Howard.
43:17So, my thing is, is it then because we know things are happening, we know what the crime rate is like, and this is not...
43:25Again, this has nothing to do with governments and all the rest of it, right?
43:28Let the chips fall where they may.
43:29This has everything to do with every single person is responsible.
43:34Every single person must take accountability and ask themselves, what am I doing?
43:40Don't keep asking, what is somebody else not doing?
43:43You know, ask yourself, what steps have I made?
43:45Have I given by 100%?
43:48And then after that, then I can look to say, try and see what may be what somebody else is not doing and figure that out.
43:55And it's part of that because our culture, very much so, is everything is a joke.
44:01So, you see a short person, a tall man.
44:04You know?
44:04You see a fat person, skinny.
44:06You know?
44:07A person, no teeter.
44:08You know, you have all of these, all of these things, you know, that we just, you know, we find, we find, we find fun in everything.
44:17I'd call you good looking.
44:18Well, correct.
44:19But that's you being your authentic self and that's your, and there's your feeling.
44:22Now, whether that is cougars or whatever syndrome, you know, that, that, that puts another perspective.
44:28But just know that I'm a red man.
44:30But I think for whatever that means, you know, but yeah, I mean, it's, it's, it's, it's really interesting how, you know, we can, we can glean all these things from our culture because it's, it's, it's cultural.
44:49It's, it's, it's the way, it's the way we do things, you know, it's the way we feel about ourselves or feel about each other, you know, that, you know, that we can glean imposter syndrome.
45:00And it's opposite.
45:02Dunning-Kruger.
45:03Dunning-Kruger, you know, syndrome from that.
45:08So, yeah, again, I think it just, it boils down to self-awareness, you know, knowledge of self, you know, is, is something like, is, is Pekong malicious?
45:20Is Pekong necessarily malicious?
45:22Well, today, today is bullying today.
45:25It's called bullying.
45:26Bullying, right.
45:26Yeah, that's, yeah.
45:27I guess, it's, I guess, yeah, it can be, you know, you know, is, is, is sweet talk, is sweet talk harassment.
45:38Or manipulation.
45:39Or manipulation, you know.
45:41Ed, what you're seeing here, I tend to feel exhausted.
45:45Let me tell you why.
45:46Because sometimes it is good to explore things.
45:50I agree with that.
45:51But, this is Trinidad culture now I'm coming with.
45:56I personally tired of hearing people talking versus doing something.
46:01Remember, we started this by finding your authentic self is doing, right?
46:05Coming out.
46:05Talk is cheap.
46:06Coming out.
46:07It has things that I hear since I was a child in Trinidad that we're talking about, right?
46:12I remember, I think it was Dominique Calipos had put up an article where the government at that time, and it was, I think it's one newspaper, say, you know, water for all in Trinidad in five years or something like that.
46:26Clearly, of course, right?
46:27That was before I was born.
46:28So, that five years passed and gone.
46:31Not clearly.
46:31I don't know why clearly, but okay.
46:33Right.
46:33We take your word for it if you're being your authentic self.
46:35Yes, I'm being my authentic self, right?
46:37I did not dye in my beard, right?
46:40That's my authentic self.
46:42So, what I'm saying is that, you see, this talk, I'm tired of talking.
46:47So, whether we're acting or not, whether we're choosing to be an actor or authentic self or not, as men, we should have our goal, right?
46:56As Trinidadians, we should have our goal that we accomplish it.
46:59Whether we're acting or not, the country, this me, should be moving forward, right?
47:05Whether we, however we're doing it, we're learning to be ourselves or not, we should be moving forward, but we're not moving forward, right?
47:12I disagree with that.
47:14Yes, you could disagree because I, sorry, I made a blanket statement, and I could say we're not moving forward in some ways and moving forward in another way.
47:21So, I'm happy to see you're giving permission to disagree.
47:24Yeah, yeah, yeah, everybody have permission.
47:25You don't have permission to disagree, but everybody have permission to disagree.
47:27This is done in Kruger himself, you know.
47:29But my thing is, is that at a personal level, everybody, as a man too, you have a goal for yourself because, Robert, you said being your best self, right?
47:41So, you have a goal for yourself, whatever that goal is, no judgment.
47:44Find the methods that, I guess, closest to your authentic self, that you're not hurting somebody in the process, you're not damaging other people.
47:53Sometimes it's not the intent, you may hurt someone, but once your client has not hurt someone, you accomplish that goal.
48:01And then, as a family, you could do that, as a group, etc., etc., but as closest to your authentic self as possible because even though there are some people who would look to others for their accountability, their truth is, you know, I don't want to do anything.
48:17I want you to do it.
48:18And if that is the truth, just say that.
48:19Say, you know what?
48:20I just prefer to stay in a corner.
48:21I'll leave you to do it.
48:23At least I know now where I stand instead of pretending that you're doing something and you're not doing it.
48:28Because at the end of this conversation and this discourse, what I want to take from it is something is being done, right?
48:36Under all this acting or not acting, at the end of the day, something we accomplish.
48:40So, before we go into that, because we are drawing to our clothes, and I know we have our closing thoughts and so on to say, you know, but a couple of things, you know, as we spoke, what people pleasing and part of our mentality in doing that, and for whatever way it may lie that allows us to be in certain levels of mediocrity, you know, I was looking at a couple of things and they say, even as a child, you know, from the parent or that person's community, you know, they come home with a drawing and, you know, they say, you know, what do you think of this drawing?
49:09And you go, great, wow, that's so awesome.
49:12And you think somehow that you're giving that person encouragement to continue.
49:17And nobody's saying that you should not encourage, because you don't want to say, well, that's crap, you know, and then totally, you know, have the person distraught and, you know, not wanting to proceed.
49:27But you have to find ways to reverse it.
49:30And in our society, now that we know better, and some of the science is the way to do better.
49:33So it's almost like now, what do you think of the painting?
49:37And hear what they think, right?
49:39And then for whatever they think, then you can reassure them based on that.
49:43So if they go, well, I like it, then say, yeah, well, that's really good.
49:46So that they don't, their automatic thought every time they do something is not looking to be people-pleasers, not looking for other assurance from somebody else.
49:54Not looking for the validation.
49:55Not looking for the validation.
49:57They themselves are aware of what they are about and what they want to accomplish.
50:01Because it might be your best, but it might be their best, and they can be okay with that.
50:08You know, so one of the things I want to ask you, Michael, that we ask, you know, people on the, in this conversation, to get your perception and interpretation of what it takes and what it means to be a man.
50:21I think what it takes and what it means to be a man is realizing your fullest potential.
50:32Whatever, whatever speaks to you, whatever, you know, I mean, you're drawn to what realizing, realizing that fullest potential and knowing being part of that fullest potential is, is, is, is, is the knowledge.
51:02The knowledge and the appreciation that you're not the only person on this planet.
51:06Okay.
51:07Right.
51:08That, that part of the responsibility of realizing that fullest potential is not just for you, but also for the community.
51:19And, you know, and, and, and for the betterment of, of, of that community.
51:24And, and that community isn't just a human community.
51:26It's, it's, it's, you're also part of the natural world.
51:30And if you can, if you can take, um, that thought into, you know, what, what, what you felt about, um, this conversation here today, um, and your closing thoughts to the, to the people of Trinidad and Tobago.
51:43Uh, know, know, know yourself, know yourself.
51:47Part of, part of, part of, part of embracing your authentic self, um, is, is, is, is, is knowing yourself, being self, self-awareness, self-awareness, um, in, in all of its light and dark sides.
52:06Just, just, just, just, just being aware of yourself and in making, like, like, like Johansson said, making, making choices, you know, making, making better choices as, as, as, as sometimes as uncomfortable as it feels.
52:32You know, um, you know, to make, you know, to make, to make better choices so we can have a better society.
52:40Um, I'm going to jump in here just to say that, you know, in my closing thoughts, to say that, um, and I'm going to free ball this one here.
52:48Um, I know you like that word, um, and I'd live it to say that, you know, we, life for me, the way I look at it, um, you know, we don't, we don't have all the answers.
52:59We don't know, um, I simply don't know who, you know, what, what, what I'll be three days from now in terms of what experiences may change the, the perceptions or thoughts I might have had.
53:12Like on manhood, you know, we talk about it all the time that during the show, the many shows that we start off with one opinion and then leave, not always having the same opinion, um, but, but altered, um, in, in, in, in that feeling, you know, like, okay, well, maybe you give me a lot of perspective here.
53:31Um, and I might either agree at the end or disagree, but still respect.
53:35Um, so for me, I, I try to look at it like a book that every time, every book, every page is a different part of the overall story.
53:46It's a part of that story.
53:48I don't know what's on the next page because I've never read the book before.
53:51Um, but I still continue because the book is interesting.
53:54The book is what I decided to do, decide to live my life by.
53:58And bottom line is, um, I will only know what that, what that is when I come to the end of that book.
54:06No pages is like, you know, unless it's a duplicate, no page is the same.
54:11And just to be, and in order to give yourself the best chance, make sure you pick the right book because knowledge is power.
54:21And if you don't want to be a particular way, as we spoke about in previous, um, conversations about community, then choose the right book.
54:32If I'm to use that as any sort of, um, any sort of analogy, just be you, be you, be the best you that you can be.
54:39Um, and, and take each step each day at a time.
54:44And more importantly, don't beat, beat yourself up when you fall.
54:48Just know that, you know, you, you want to get back up again because you know where you want to end up and, um, to be that, be your authentic self.
54:55And if you have to act along the way to get past that day, because this too shall pass, then that's okay.
55:03That's okay.
55:04You know, no judgment.
55:07Okay.
55:08I feel I will jump in here.
55:09I would say don't act at all if it is, you have to get past it.
55:14As someone who struggle with depression, it's very easy to go into a mode of acting to make others feel better for themselves because you're trying to protect other people.
55:29And what happens is that over, over time, you may get lost in that character that you've been building up for so long.
55:36You actually forget who you are.
55:38So remember to ask yourself those tough questions and, um, and what you're actually trying to avoid is your responsibility of being a better person.
55:51So sometimes it's just easier to go into acting.
55:54So that's why I would say, I would say not opposite, but try not to act.
55:59It's okay to rub people the wrong way a couple of times, you know, just for a little bit of self-actualization sometimes.
56:09So keep that in mind.
56:10You know, we can't control what others think or feel.
56:16We could only control what we think and feel.
56:19We could only control ourselves.
56:21And if you feel like it's damned if you do, damned if you don't, it's better to do.
56:25As we discussed, it's better always to do something.
56:28And in the act, in the, in the action of doing something, you will discover yourself.
56:34I, what I'm saying to this is you wouldn't know the future as Robert, you're saying you don't know what on the next page.
56:41So I think it's, in your choices, it's better to be sure than to be right.
56:50And while, this has been manhood.
56:52And while, while you're reading, while you're reading the pages of your life, enjoy it.
56:57You know, because that is the book you chose.
57:00That, the book could only be the book.
57:02So, um, take it away.
57:06This has been manhood.
57:07Thank you very much, Michael.
57:09I appreciate it.
57:10I appreciate you.
57:11I appreciate it.
57:12Niall, right?
57:14I appreciate it.
57:14I appreciate everybody helping us as we help you become the best version of ourselves and we discover who exactly is our authentic self.
57:29Manhood.
57:30Brought to you in part by Reboot Sports Drink.