The Jeremy Kyle Show 5th October 2018
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TVTranscript
00:00On today's show.
00:02Sandra and Sarah say that their lives were changed forever last December
00:06when a truly horrific petrol bomb attack devastated their entire family.
00:15Michelle, your daughter tried to save her children.
00:17She suffered 75% burns to her entire body.
00:21She was put in a coma to this day.
00:24She's in hospital fighting for her life.
00:26They said she gets another infection.
00:31It called a finisher.
00:32She's not strong enough to follow through.
00:35She was woken from a coma after five months
00:38to be told that four of her children had died.
00:46These low lives were caught on CCTV buying the petrol.
00:52They might be in prison for the kids on that list.
00:56Good morning, my friends, and welcome to the show.
01:04Now, my first guests today, Sandra and Sarah,
01:06say that their lives were changed forever last December
01:09when a truly horrific petrol bomb attack devastated their entire family.
01:14Take a look at this.
01:17Caught on CCTV the moment a house was petrol bombed,
01:21killing four innocent young children.
01:24The fire was started when the Pearson family were asleep in their beds
01:28at No. 8 Jackson Street in Walkden.
01:32Minutes later, this fire service footage shows what they were confronted with
01:36when they arrived.
01:38The blaze had taken hold so quickly that the children didn't stand a chance.
01:43Demi Pearson, age 15, her brother Brandon, who was 8,
01:47sister Lacey, age 7, all died at the scene.
01:51Three-year-old Leah Pearson was pulled out alive,
01:54but she died three days later.
01:56This atrocious act left Sandra's daughter, Michelle,
02:01with life-changing injuries and claimed, as you heard there,
02:04the lives of four of Michelle's children.
02:07This is such a raw, raw situation for this entire family,
02:10but Michelle's mum, Sandra, and her sister, Sarah,
02:15however difficult this is for them,
02:17and I mean probably in 15 years,
02:19this is the most difficult I've ever seen people going through something.
02:23They want to do this.
02:24They say that they want to be the voice that Michelle cannot be.
02:28She is still fighting for her life in hospital,
02:32finding out just a few months ago, whilst in hospital,
02:35that she'd lost four of her children.
02:37Please show your respect.
02:38Sandra and Sarah on the Jeremy Carr show.
02:57It's the first thing I want to say.
02:59You say the family was very close, fun-loving.
03:03She was a great mum.
03:04Everybody did so much together.
03:06The kids were amazing.
03:08On the 26th of November,
03:10to give you some sort of timeline to this story,
03:12the trouble started.
03:15Michelle tried to help her son's friend.
03:18And that help was turned around on her,
03:22and she started to be terrorised.
03:28I mean, this was a woman who would go out on a limb for almost anybody,
03:32was known as the mother of the community.
03:34She had six kids of her own,
03:36but she'd do anything for anybody else.
03:37But very quickly, they started terrorising and knocking on her door at all hours,
03:42banging on the windows,
03:44abuse in the street.
03:45What did that do to her?
03:48It made her ill in the end,
03:51being woke up at one o'clock in the morning,
03:53three o'clock in the morning,
03:55getting up early for the children.
03:57The kids were scared as well.
03:58The police were called on numerous occasions.
04:01And from something just that had been heard trying to be helpful, Sarah,
04:06suddenly this nightmare ensued, right?
04:10Yeah.
04:11But nobody,
04:12nobody in a decent human society
04:15could have possibly foreseen what was going to happen on that night,
04:19on December the 11th.
04:20Do you,
04:21are you able to tell us in your words,
04:24Sandra,
04:24either of you,
04:25both of you,
04:25exactly what happened?
04:27It was 5am,
04:29wasn't it?
04:30Yeah.
04:31Well,
04:31my daughter phoned me up on the Sunday,
04:34at 11 o'clock at night,
04:36you know,
04:36the usual chat,
04:37what you have with your daughter.
04:39And we were just going on,
04:40and she said,
04:41like,
04:41I'll phone you tomorrow morning when I come back from school.
04:44I said,
04:45OK.
04:46And,
04:47I never heard anything since.
04:49And then,
04:49one of the neighbours came knocking at me door,
04:52about quarter to eight in the morning,
04:54saying,
04:55I think this is your own shell's house on fire.
04:57It was all over multimedia.
04:59And then,
05:00so I tried to get in contact with me.
05:02I don't know,
05:03you know,
05:03long before I was ever on television,
05:05I'd watch people ask the next question,
05:07and I'd scream at the screen,
05:08because,
05:09you know,
05:10what do you say,
05:10how do you feel when you know that your daughter's house is on fire with kids in?
05:14But I have to ask that.
05:16I mean,
05:16that's just...
05:17I mind just went like blank,
05:19and we just said,
05:21like,
05:21is everybody OK?
05:22And we got told everybody had been took out.
05:25So I thought,
05:26oh,
05:26thank God for that.
05:27And then,
05:28I went to my daughter's house,
05:29Sarah's.
05:30The police was there and that.
05:32And they said,
05:32have you heard anything?
05:34And she said,
05:34not yet.
05:35And then a phone call came through,
05:37said there was three fatalities.
05:38It was 5am.
05:44Zach Bolland,
05:45David Worrell,
05:46Courtney Braley,
05:47petrol bombed the house.
05:49Michelle,
05:50your daughter,
05:50tried to save her children.
05:52She suffered 75% burns to her entire body.
05:56She was put in a coma to this day.
05:58She's in hospital,
06:00fighting for her life.
06:01We'll go back to the story in a minute.
06:04The thing that choked me today,
06:05the whole thing choked me,
06:06but she was woken from her coma
06:09after five months
06:10to be told that three of her children,
06:13four of her children had died.
06:15Yeah.
06:16Let's go back to that night,
06:19the realisation that it wasn't
06:21that they got out the fatalities.
06:22Who told you that?
06:23And the police
06:25phoned through and told us.
06:28They did say Leah was alive,
06:31so we went straight down to hospital
06:33to see Leah
06:34when she was badly burnt on that.
06:38And then I came out of the room
06:40because it was too upsetting for me.
06:42Demi, the 15-year-old,
06:43the neighbours saw her
06:44banging on the window,
06:45didn't they?
06:46Yeah.
06:47And you just...
06:49I mean, that just plays
06:50with every part of your emotion,
06:51doesn't it?
06:52Yeah, it does.
06:55It's like the fire brigade said,
06:56it just went up in so many seconds
06:58there's just no chance
06:59of them getting out of the fire.
07:02I've got another piece of VT
07:06that I wanted to play,
07:07but as we said,
07:08Demi, Brandon, Lacey
07:09died in the fire instantly.
07:11Leah, bless her,
07:12died two days later in hospital.
07:14For any parent, grandparent,
07:16aunt, uncle,
07:17the worst day of your lives,
07:18just take this story further, guys.
07:20Play that, please.
07:22And when the flames
07:25had been damped down,
07:26this was what was left
07:28of number 8 Jackson Street,
07:30a scene of utter devastation,
07:32a family home,
07:34charred and blackened
07:35beyond recognition,
07:36a family home
07:37where Demi,
07:38Brandon,
07:39Lacey and Leah Pearson
07:40will never play inside again.
07:43Sarah, Michelle,
07:46your sister,
07:47you say we had
07:48the most important bond.
07:51Yeah, we did.
07:53Is she...
07:54I mean,
07:54she's in a very bad way,
07:56isn't she?
07:56Yeah.
07:57Do they believe
07:58she'll recover?
08:01They said she gets
08:02another infection.
08:04It could finish her.
08:05She's not strong enough
08:06to pull through.
08:07Didn't Brandon,
08:09your grandson,
08:10have a premonition?
08:12Yeah.
08:12Yeah,
08:13he did.
08:14He'd...
08:14Because, like,
08:16they smashed the windows
08:16and everything previously
08:17and set fire to the bins,
08:20he used to wake up saying,
08:21erm,
08:23are we going to die?
08:25And Michelle said,
08:25no, you're not.
08:26I'll protect you.
08:27Nobody will harm you.
08:28Not while I'm still alive.
08:31And then he woke up
08:32after the petrol bond
08:33and the bins
08:33and he said,
08:34erm,
08:35ma'am,
08:35I'm dying.
08:37She said,
08:37why?
08:37He said,
08:37I'm on fire.
08:38She said,
08:39no, you're not.
08:39You're having a dream.
08:41Go back to bed.
08:41Because he dreamt
08:42that the house was on fire.
08:45Erm,
08:46there were two kids
08:47that survived.
08:48How old are they?
08:5016,
08:5017.
08:53How did they...
08:53One of them jumped
08:54out of the window,
08:54didn't they,
08:55to survive it?
08:55How did they deal
08:56with this?
08:57Just not.
08:59Struggling.
09:00He blames himself
09:01because he couldn't
09:02get back in
09:02to save them.
09:04What were your
09:05grandchildren like?
09:06Brilliant.
09:09Leela's Peppa Pig.
09:10Frozen mad,
09:11weren't she?
09:12Everything was Peppa Pig
09:13and Frozen.
09:15Lisa,
09:16which was like a diva.
09:17Is she?
09:18Always dancing.
09:19Even the teacher said
09:20when she asked
09:21to go to talk,
09:22she'd be dancing
09:23out the classroom
09:23and down the corridor.
09:26Brandon.
09:28Isn't that Stephen
09:29Hawkinson?
09:29He was so clever.
09:32Used to have dreams
09:33of building his
09:33mama house,
09:34becoming an architect.
09:37And Demi,
09:39she wanted to make
09:40some of my life.
09:40She didn't know
09:41what she wanted to do
09:41but she signed up
09:43for college.
09:44She wanted to take
09:44her education further.
09:45Zach Bolland was found
09:51guilty of four counts
09:52of murder and was
09:53sentenced to 40 years
09:54in prison.
09:57David Worrell was
09:58found guilty of four
09:59counts of murder
10:00and was sentenced
10:01to 37 years in prison.
10:04And Courtney Briarley
10:05was found guilty of
10:06four counts of
10:07manslaughter and was
10:08sentenced to 21 years
10:09in a young offenders
10:10institution.
10:11Sorry for having to
10:12ask this.
10:13When they were sent
10:15down to rot in hell
10:17for all eternity,
10:18one can only hope,
10:19does that give you
10:19any semblance of
10:21settlement or not?
10:24No.
10:26Because they might be
10:28in prison but the kids
10:29are not here.
10:31Can you run the VT
10:31as well, please?
10:32At 1am on the night
10:34of 11th of December
10:36last year,
10:37Bolland and co-accused
10:38David Worrell
10:39turned up at the
10:40Pearson's home
10:41making threats
10:42before returning to
10:43Bolland's a few
10:44streets away.
10:46Later that night,
10:47they were driven
10:47to a petrol station
10:49where the two men
10:50were caught on camera
10:51buying petrol
10:52and pouring it
10:53into a can.
10:54The third defendant,
10:56Bolland's girlfriend,
10:57Courtney Briarley,
10:58waited in the car
10:59with the acquaintance
11:00who it belonged to.
11:01They returned to
11:02Bolland's house
11:03where petrol bombs
11:04were put together
11:05and then they drove
11:07to Jackson Street.
11:10I noticed, Sandra,
11:11you can't even look at that.
11:13We struggle
11:14knowing what they
11:16went through
11:17and it was on their own
11:20and all the towns
11:24and shell out people
11:26and no-one was there
11:29to help her.
11:29You know when your daughter
11:32was in a coma
11:33for five months
11:34and she was woken
11:35and told about her children
11:37and from what I read
11:38it didn't really sink in
11:41but when it did
11:43and however horrific
11:45that must be
11:46for her to deal with,
11:48do you think
11:49you'll get her back
11:49or do you think that...
11:50No, definitely not.
11:54Who told her the children
11:55were dead?
11:56Me mum.
11:58How'd you do that?
12:00Well, it'd rather come for me
12:02or the nurses
12:03and it's only because
12:04she asked me.
12:05I was talking about
12:06my other grandkids,
12:07the youngest one,
12:08me one-year-old
12:09and she said,
12:11well, where's my baby?
12:14And I said,
12:15Leo?
12:16I said,
12:16because we did tell her
12:17numerous times
12:18that she's passed away
12:18in the fire.
12:20Well, she got like
12:21in denial,
12:22she just kept asking
12:22every day,
12:23kept forgetting,
12:24forgetting,
12:24it lasted for about
12:25six weeks
12:26before it sunk into her.
12:27She kept saying like,
12:28bring the kids down
12:29the next time you come
12:30and he was looking
12:32after them
12:32and make sure
12:34you give Demi
12:34some money
12:35and just stuff like that.
12:36Has she accepted it
12:37now or not?
12:38Yeah.
12:38She can't move
12:40from the net down
12:42but she's not paralysed
12:43but that's because
12:44she was in a calm
12:45for so long
12:46so it's just like
12:46muscle wastage.
12:49So she had to go
12:49through rehab,
12:50learn to walk again.
12:51How long has she been
12:52in hospital for?
12:53Since that moment?
12:53Yeah.
12:55Yeah.
12:56I so respect you guys
12:57for coming here
12:58and I want to ask something
12:58but even I'm like...
13:02Can I ask you something
13:03without you think badly of me?
13:05Would it be better
13:06if your daughter passed away?
13:07Well, I did think that
13:09at the beginning.
13:10Yeah.
13:10You know why I'm asking you that
13:11don't I?
13:11The horror, the pain,
13:13the suffering.
13:13No, it is, yeah.
13:14We did think that
13:15at the beginning,
13:16didn't we?
13:16You would, wouldn't you?
13:17Yeah.
13:18We just wanted her
13:19to be alike
13:19with the children
13:20because without the children
13:21it ain't going to be Michelle.
13:22The community have been great.
13:26That's what I always think
13:27so frustrating
13:27about this country actually
13:29is that we seem to come together
13:31in really, really bad times.
13:32Yeah.
13:33We should probably do it
13:33a bit more often.
13:34I'm not going to ask you
13:35to comment on those low lives
13:37who languish in prison
13:38but I think the audience
13:40here and at home
13:40would just join me
13:41and thank you
13:41and wish you could,
13:44you know,
13:44wish I could sort of
13:45wave my fingers
13:46and make something better
13:47but thank you so much
13:48for coming
13:49and I really, really appreciate it.
13:51Give them a round of applause.
13:52You're okay.
13:54You've given Michelle our love,
13:55thank you.
13:56Really thanks, darling.
13:59Amazing, incredibly sad story.
14:00Amazing family.
14:01Don't go anywhere.
14:01Back in a minute.
14:02Thank you very much.
14:04When you saw him on screen
14:05though, when you went
14:06to the cinema
14:06and there was your boy
14:07in Harry Potter,
14:07one of the biggest franchises ever.
14:09What was that like?
14:10Well, yeah, it was fantastic
14:11but unfortunately
14:12Rob was killed three days
14:13after he finished filming.
14:18All he wanted to do
14:19was get his dinner suit
14:20and, you know,
14:21walk up that red carpet
14:22in Leicester Square.
14:24You were there on the night.
14:27Rob was just saying,
14:28I've been stabbed,
14:28I've been stabbed.
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15:08Thank you very much indeed.
15:09Now, welcome back.
15:10My next guests today,
15:11Sally and Jamie,
15:12said that 10 years ago
15:13their lives were completely shattered
15:14when Sally's oldest son
15:15and Jamie's big brother Rob
15:17was stabbed to death.
15:18From that moment,
15:19they not only had to deal
15:20with unimaginable grief,
15:21they also had to cope
15:23with being thrust
15:23into the media spotlight
15:25as the country as a whole
15:27watched on.
15:28Please welcome first up today,
15:29Robert's mum Sally
15:30is on the Jeremy Kyle show.
15:31Give her a round of applause.
15:3210 years.
15:45I know, it goes so quickly.
15:48Speak a little bit about Rob.
15:50Um, well, obviously Rob was my son.
15:54He was a normal boy.
15:56He wasn't,
15:57he wasn't an angel.
15:59He was always,
16:00you know,
16:00he was always in trouble,
16:01but he was a joker
16:02and he was a really lovely,
16:04normal kid.
16:06Didn't mix with the wrong people.
16:08Um, basically,
16:09he was,
16:11what happened to him,
16:11he was in the wrong place
16:12at the wrong time.
16:14At the time,
16:15because he was an actor,
16:16wasn't he?
16:16I mean, he was,
16:17yes, he was, yes.
16:18How was it like to know
16:19that your son was in Harry Potter?
16:21Ah, it was,
16:22when he actually got the part,
16:24the funny thing was
16:25he kept getting through
16:26and kept getting through
16:27because both boys went
16:28for the part.
16:29He used to ring me up
16:30and say,
16:30Mum, can you please tell my friends
16:32that I'm really in this?
16:32Because nobody believed it.
16:34When you saw him on screen though,
16:35when you went to the cinema
16:36and there was your boy
16:36in Harry Potter,
16:37one of the biggest franchises ever,
16:38what was that like?
16:39Well, yeah,
16:40it was fantastic,
16:41but unfortunately,
16:42Rob was killed three days
16:42after he finished filming.
16:44So, by the time
16:45that we saw,
16:46we saw the film
16:47before the premiere,
16:48but when the premiere came up,
16:50it was,
16:51it was a mixture
16:52of being happy
16:52seeing Harry,
16:53seeing him in Harry Potter,
16:55but it was also
16:56the sadness
16:56that he wasn't there
16:57to be at the premiere
16:58because all he wanted to do
16:59was get his dinner suit
17:01and, you know,
17:02walk up that red carpet
17:03in Leicester Square.
17:03In terms of,
17:05as a mother,
17:07not only have you got to deal
17:09with the unimaginable grief
17:10of losing your kid,
17:11the media spotlight
17:12of the world's upon you
17:13because of what you did,
17:14that must have been awful.
17:16It was really awful
17:18because the night
17:19that Rob was actually killed,
17:20we were told
17:21at three o'clock
17:21in the morning
17:22after he'd died
17:23at about,
17:24we'd been told
17:24at one o'clock
17:25that it was going to be
17:26on the television
17:27at six o'clock
17:28in the morning
17:28and all I could think
17:30at that time
17:30was Rob's friends
17:33or people,
17:33my relatives in Australia,
17:35they said it was going out
17:35all over the world
17:36and all I could think of,
17:38how do I ring everybody
17:39and let them know,
17:40even though I was
17:40in traumatised myself
17:42and then the following day
17:44we had to have police
17:45outside the house
17:46because the press
17:47wouldn't let anyone
17:49go in and out
17:50without questioning them
17:51and I was so upset
17:53at the time
17:53but at the end of the day
17:54when I look back now,
17:57Rob being in Harry Potter
17:58has let me have a say
18:00because it was so publicised
18:02and there are so many boys
18:04and girls
18:04that are killed at the moment
18:05I don't even get to get,
18:07you know,
18:07don't get mentioned.
18:08You started the
18:08Robert Knox Foundation
18:09which is an amazing organisation
18:11that's done an awful lot
18:12in the last ten years
18:13and I like what you said there
18:14that you turned
18:15that media intrusion
18:17at the most painful time
18:19in your life
18:19into something,
18:21well a vehicle
18:21that you could use
18:22to do some good, right?
18:23I thought
18:24if I can do something
18:25and just talk
18:26and get through
18:27to one person
18:28out of all the hundreds
18:29of kids,
18:30thousands of kids
18:30that I've spoken to,
18:32if one takes notice,
18:35doesn't pick up a knife
18:37or keeps out of trouble,
18:38keeps away from being near a knife
18:40and I save one person,
18:43they make the right choice,
18:44then Rob hasn't died
18:45for no reason.
18:46amazing,
18:46amazing,
18:46amazing.
18:50Let me get the same to you.
18:52Your son,
18:53Jamie,
18:53and I want to talk to Jamie
18:54about specifically that night
18:56because he was there.
18:58Has he moved on
19:00or is he stuck really?
19:02It was his best mate,
19:03wasn't he?
19:04Oh yeah,
19:04they were so close.
19:05It was only,
19:06yes,
19:07only 17 months between them,
19:09they had the same group
19:09of friends.
19:11Jamie at the first,
19:12you can imagine,
19:13the headlines again,
19:15this was what we had
19:15on top of everything else.
19:17Rob,
19:17Harry Potter actor killed
19:19trying to protect
19:20his younger brother.
19:21There was five people
19:22stabbed that night.
19:23Rob,
19:24obviously he was upset
19:25about his brother
19:25being threatened,
19:26but there was everybody else.
19:28Rob would have always gone in
19:29because he was a big boy.
19:31Can I,
19:31can I get him out?
19:32Is that all right?
19:32Oh yeah,
19:33please,
19:33please.
19:34I tell you what,
19:34your son will be very proud of you.
19:36Thank you so much
19:36for coming here.
19:37Jamie,
19:37the son and brother
19:38is on the Jeremy Kyle show.
19:39Don't go.
19:49Jamie,
19:50welcome.
19:50You were there on the night.
19:52He was,
19:52he defended you
19:54because you were threatened.
19:55Yeah.
19:55It actually happened
19:56in front of me,
19:57but I didn't actually see
19:58a knife going in,
20:00but I saw him going up
20:01to try and get the knives
20:03off the boy.
20:04And when he run up,
20:05I sort of just turned around.
20:07I remember screaming
20:07because this kid
20:10was just swinging his arms around
20:11with knives in,
20:12just like towards people.
20:16And that vision
20:18just stuck with me
20:19and I turned around
20:19and just screamed
20:20and then when I turned back,
20:21I saw Rob sort of slumped
20:22around him,
20:24sort of holding his arms together.
20:25And I didn't even think
20:26at that point,
20:27I just run straight up
20:28and sort of helped
20:29and everyone sort of
20:30bundled him into a bush.
20:33And then that's when
20:34we sort of rolled out.
20:35Lads kept him there
20:36and that's when Rob
20:38was just saying,
20:38I've been stabbed,
20:39I've been stabbed.
20:40Did you go in the ambulance
20:40with him?
20:41No, I wasn't allowed,
20:42no.
20:43We'd go up there
20:44and he was actually
20:44in the waiting room
20:46with my mum,
20:46my dad,
20:48Callum,
20:48the boy who was with him,
20:50was in there
20:51for about 45 minutes
20:52just waiting
20:53and you sort of
20:54don't know what to do
20:55with yourself,
20:56you're just waiting
20:57and then
20:58I remember the door opening
21:00and a policewoman
21:02walked in first
21:02with a doctor with her
21:04and I knew straight away then.
21:07Did you?
21:08And then
21:08it's those words you hear
21:10on a TV programme,
21:13in a film,
21:13that, sorry,
21:15we couldn't save Rob,
21:17he's passed away,
21:18it's just something
21:18that you shouldn't
21:20be hearing.
21:21Carl Bishop was convicted
21:22of murder on the 4th of March 2009
21:24and he was sentenced to life
21:25with a minimum of 22 years.
21:28Were you in court?
21:29Yeah, I had to testify
21:31because I was a witness,
21:32so...
21:32What was that like?
21:34It was horrific,
21:36to be honest.
21:36Do you think about him
21:38every day?
21:39Are they good thoughts now
21:40or is it still as devastating
21:41ten years on
21:42as it was a decade ago?
21:44For me, personally,
21:47you do...
21:49They're not bad thoughts,
21:50they're good thoughts,
21:51they're only sort of
21:52happy memories that I have.
21:54And, yeah,
21:55I think about him
21:56every single day.
21:57Like,
21:58it's not...
21:58You don't consciously
21:59think about him,
22:00it's just everything you do...
22:02There's a link.
22:03Constantly.
22:04Like, every single day,
22:05multiple times for me,
22:06I don't know about you.
22:07Well, I think,
22:08for me,
22:09the problem I had,
22:10and I think,
22:10like Jamie talked about
22:11the defence mechanism,
22:13I felt terrible
22:14the first three or four years
22:15because I couldn't remember.
22:18I used to think in my mind,
22:20I was consciously trying
22:21not to look back
22:22because I didn't want
22:23to get upset.
22:24A lot better now,
22:25a lot better now.
22:26And I do like watching,
22:28I mean,
22:29I love watching him
22:30on the Harry Potter film,
22:31but I think one of the
22:32most wonderful things
22:33that Warner Brothers
22:34did for us
22:34was those outtakes
22:36because we've got
22:38all of the outtakes
22:39and seeing my rob on there
22:40and swearing
22:41when someone did
22:42something wrong,
22:42he was just totally
22:43his normal self.
22:45And that's
22:46sort of my happy place.
22:48Yeah.
22:49The thing about
22:50anything as bad as that
22:51is it's so instantaneous.
22:55There's no preparation
22:56and the fallout
22:57is forever.
22:59And that's what's
23:02so heinous about it,
23:03isn't it?
23:04But I know you've
23:04campaigned quite rightly
23:06about knife crime
23:07and I've done other
23:08shows on that
23:08and I wish they would
23:10perhaps change the law
23:11and make that easier.
23:12Final word,
23:13what would you like to say?
23:14Why did you want to do this?
23:15In his memory?
23:17Yeah, to be honest,
23:19it's just,
23:20I want to let other people
23:22know that you always think
23:23it's never going to
23:24happen to you.
23:25It's always someone else.
23:26You watch the news,
23:27it's someone else's family
23:28and you watch it
23:29and you think,
23:30oh, that's bad.
23:31But it can't happen
23:32to anyone
23:33until it happens to you.
23:36You're very brave
23:37and you've been very proud of you
23:38and I very much appreciate
23:39you being here,
23:39both of you.
23:40Thank you so much for coming.
23:41Thank you, my friend.
23:42Thank you very much.
23:42Thank you very much.
23:49Great people
23:50and we're after the break
23:51for The Jeremy Kyle Show.
23:52Right back.
23:54In 1990,
23:55three years before
23:55the Bulger case
23:56hit the headlines,
23:57three-year-old
23:58Jamie Campbell
23:58was taken
23:59from his grandmother's
24:00back garden
24:00by an 11-year-old boy
24:02who beat him,
24:03drowned him
24:04and then killed him.
24:06What the Bulger family
24:07went through was horrific.
24:08Of course.
24:09But what your family
24:09went through was horrific.
24:10Is there a degree
24:11of frustration that...
24:12Absolutely.
24:13That perhaps
24:14Jamie Campbell
24:16didn't get
24:16the respect
24:18that Jamie Bulger did?
24:20APPLAUSE
24:24Thank you very much indeed.
24:31Welcome back.
24:32Now, this year
24:32marked the 25th anniversary
24:33of one of Britain's
24:34most horrific crimes.
24:36The murder of
24:36two-year-old James Bulger
24:37shocked the nation
24:38and for my next guest,
24:39the brutal crime
24:40was incredibly close
24:42to home.
24:42In 1990,
24:43three years before
24:44the Bulger case
24:45hit the headlines,
24:46three-year-old Jamie Campbell
24:47was taken from
24:48his grandmother's
24:48back garden
24:49by an 11-year-old boy
24:50who beat him,
24:52drowned him
24:53and then killed him.
24:54Today, some of his family
24:55are here to share their story
24:56for the very first time
24:57on television.
24:58I'd like to start
24:58by welcoming
24:59his cousin, Kimberly
25:00and his aunt, Frances,
25:01to The Jeremy Cowell Show.
25:02Give them a round of applause.
25:11APPLAUSE
25:12Thank you very much.
25:13How are you?
25:14Good.
25:16Wow.
25:16There's so much
25:19to your story.
25:20My first question
25:21would be,
25:22why now?
25:24Is it that it was,
25:26I mean, it's 28 years ago now.
25:28Why now?
25:29I think, well,
25:30obviously,
25:31Jamie and I
25:31were the same age
25:32and we've obviously
25:34lived with it
25:34in our family
25:35for years
25:36and like everybody else,
25:37we know the Bulger case
25:38really well
25:39and support, obviously.
25:41And every time
25:42it comes up,
25:43our whole family
25:44have to relive that.
25:45and for us,
25:47for me,
25:48it just makes me
25:49very angry
25:51and very upset
25:53that nobody remembers Jamie,
25:55that nobody remembers
25:55his story.
25:56It's a very contentious thing
25:57to say
25:57and I appreciate you,
25:58Frances and Kimberly,
25:59being here.
26:00The Jamie Bulger case
26:03shot the nation
26:04as it would.
26:04This was a heinous crime
26:06but I want to talk about
26:07your cousin
26:08because you posted
26:10on Facebook
26:11that it was
26:12three years before that
26:14that Jamie
26:14was also brutally,
26:16well,
26:16taken and brutally
26:17killed.
26:19I don't know actually
26:20how to say this
26:21but I'm going to
26:22do what I always try
26:23and do.
26:24What the Bulger family
26:25went through
26:26was horrific.
26:26Of course.
26:27But what your family
26:28went through
26:29was horrific.
26:29Is there a degree
26:30of frustration
26:31that it wasn't
26:33resentment even
26:34that perhaps
26:35Jamie Campbell
26:37didn't get
26:37the respect
26:39that Jamie Bulger did
26:41and I don't mean
26:41that in a bad way
26:42to anybody.
26:44Definitely.
26:44It does feel
26:45that way for us.
26:46I mean,
26:46as we've always said,
26:47we're not taking
26:48anything away
26:48from what happened
26:49to that poor family
26:50at all.
26:51It's just,
26:52it is extremely
26:53frustrating
26:53when people talk
26:55about it
26:55because when it is
26:56dominating the headlines
26:57everyone starts
26:58talking about it.
26:58Let's talk about
26:59the Facebook post.
27:01What did you,
27:01you just made?
27:03Yeah,
27:03I just,
27:03I had watched
27:04one of the programmes
27:05that were on
27:06just like everyone else
27:07and then again
27:08it was all talked about
27:09but it just made us
27:10all relive it
27:11and then I did get
27:12really upset
27:13and really angry
27:14about it.
27:15More frustration
27:16than anger.
27:1621,500 shares
27:19but also some backlash.
27:21Yeah,
27:22I mean,
27:22when you share
27:23something like that
27:24on Facebook
27:24I did it
27:25because I wanted
27:26people just to
27:26remember Jamie.
27:27I did this
27:28just to keep
27:29his memory alive.
27:30You felt like
27:30he'd been forgotten.
27:31Yeah,
27:31it wasn't anything,
27:33there was no,
27:33as I've said,
27:34I never did it
27:35for revenge
27:35or retribution
27:36against his killer.
27:37It was,
27:38I did it
27:39for his memory
27:40to keep his memory
27:41alive and people
27:41who know him
27:42because his story
27:43is important.
27:44His story
27:44shouldn't die
27:45with him
27:45and when I
27:47did it
27:47I didn't realise
27:48that it would
27:49be so,
27:51it would be
27:51out there
27:51so big
27:52and it was
27:53so nice
27:54and it was
27:54comforting
27:54all the messages
27:56and things like that
27:56but yeah,
27:58I did,
27:58there was...
27:59You were trolled,
28:00you were called
28:00an attention seeker
28:01and somebody
28:02was dressed
28:02basically out
28:03for fame.
28:04I got this backlash
28:06of people
28:06just saying
28:07that this is over
28:09now,
28:09the killer
28:11has done his time
28:13and served justice
28:14and the family
28:16should get over it.
28:18A little bit of advice
28:18from an old man.
28:22Newspapers
28:23are tomorrow's
28:23chip paper.
28:25When you do stuff
28:26and there are plenty
28:27of benefits
28:27to Facebook,
28:28I know that
28:28from the reunions
28:29and the people
28:30that we find
28:31but it is
28:32in many instances
28:33I'm afraid
28:34an area
28:36that cowardly
28:37people can give
28:38opinions
28:39frankly,
28:40if you want me
28:41to be honest,
28:41they should be
28:42doing better things
28:43with their lives.
28:43I don't know
28:44whether that helps.
28:44Can I bring you
28:45in, Francis?
28:48Memories of Jamie
28:49because I mean
28:50what happened to him
28:51was horrific
28:52and it's an
28:53incredible story
28:54in that
28:55his mother
28:56tragically died
28:57in a house fire
28:58when he was
28:5811 weeks of age
28:59and he and
29:00his sibling
29:00were taken in
29:01by Robert,
29:04his uncle,
29:05his mum's brother
29:06and an auntie Kim
29:07who raised them.
29:08We'll meet them
29:09later but
29:09memories of him
29:10as a kid?
29:12Oh,
29:12just a cheeky
29:13wee chap
29:14with the most
29:15lovely smile
29:16and Kimberly
29:18and him
29:18are the same age
29:19so,
29:20you know,
29:20they did everything
29:21together
29:21and played together
29:22and just like
29:23a normal
29:24three-year-old boy.
29:26You treated him
29:27like your own
29:27didn't you?
29:27Oh, yeah.
29:28On the 24th
29:31of August
29:311993,
29:32three-year-old
29:32Jamie Campbell
29:33was taken
29:33from his
29:34grandmother's
29:34back garden.
29:35He'd been
29:36happily playing
29:37on a sunny
29:37afternoon.
29:38He was taken
29:38by 11-year-old
29:39Richard Keith
29:40who took him
29:41to a nearby
29:42burn where he
29:43beat him
29:43with rocks,
29:44drowned him
29:44and then
29:44killed him.
29:46Richard Keith
29:47was detained.
29:4811-year-old
29:49Richard Keith
29:49was charged
29:50with the
29:50culpable
29:51homicide
29:51of Jamie
29:52Campbell
29:52and served
29:54eight years
29:55at a school
29:55unit.
29:57He was released
29:57in 1999
29:58aged 20.
30:01He was
30:01and still is
30:02the youngest
30:03person ever
30:04to have killed
30:04in Scotland.
30:06When I was
30:06reading the story
30:07this morning
30:08I thought to
30:08myself,
30:08Jamie's life
30:09is gone.
30:10The killer's
30:11life,
30:12well,
30:13he's out
30:13whether he's
30:15remorseful
30:15or not.
30:17The people
30:17that trolled you
30:18are not thinking
30:19about the
30:20family,
30:21but there
30:21is a question
30:21which I
30:22want to
30:22put to
30:22you.
30:23You talked
30:23about how
30:24you wanted
30:25to get
30:26some sort
30:27of justice
30:27but also
30:27there was
30:28a bit of
30:28resentment
30:28that the
30:29Bolger case
30:29and amazing
30:30people and
30:31horrible,
30:32horrible thing
30:32to happen
30:33to anybody
30:33was every
30:34day on
30:34the 25th
30:35anniversary
30:35and thus
30:35she decided
30:36to speak
30:38out about
30:38Jamie
30:38Campbell.
30:39With the
30:40backlash
30:41and with
30:41dredging it
30:42all back up
30:43again,
30:43do you regret
30:44that?
30:45No,
30:46I don't
30:46regret it
30:46because
30:47it's
30:49went bigger
30:49than I
30:50could have
30:50ever imagined
30:50but the
30:51most important
30:52thing is
30:52that Jamie
30:54is remembered
30:54and he
30:55always will
30:55be and
30:55that's
30:56all I
30:56wanted to
30:57add.
30:58I think
30:58it's quite
30:58interesting.
31:02I'm going
31:03to be totally
31:03honest.
31:04I hadn't
31:05heard of
31:05this.
31:06Many people
31:06in the
31:07audience
31:07were like
31:07that.
31:08And you're
31:08right,
31:09the
31:09Bolger
31:09case
31:09was quite
31:10rightly
31:10on
31:10everybody's
31:11lips
31:11but there's
31:11no reason
31:11to imagine
31:12that this
31:13shouldn't
31:13have also
31:13been on
31:14people's
31:14lips.
31:14Can I
31:14just bring
31:15you back
31:15in,
31:17Francis,
31:17Robert and
31:18Kim,
31:19an amazing
31:20couple who
31:22dealing with
31:23their own
31:23grief,
31:24Robert of
31:24losing his
31:25sister,
31:26took on
31:27all of the
31:27children
31:28including
31:28Jamie.
31:30Eleven
31:30weeks old.
31:31Angels.
31:32Did you get
31:33them out?
31:34Yeah.
31:34Robert and
31:35Kim on the
31:35Jeremy Carr
31:36Show that
31:36way.
31:36There aren't
31:52many people
31:53that you
31:53can meet
31:54in the
31:54world who
31:56will do
31:56something for
31:56nothing.
31:57What you
31:57two did
31:58was
31:58incredible.
31:59Can I
31:59ask you
31:59that
32:00straight
32:00away?
32:01Do you
32:02think she's
32:02right,
32:03Kim,
32:03to want
32:05to shout
32:06from the
32:06rooftops
32:06about?
32:07Yes.
32:08Is it
32:09frustrating?
32:09We have
32:09tried over
32:10the years
32:11and,
32:11you know,
32:12it's not
32:15been,
32:16you know,
32:17it didn't
32:17go like
32:18that.
32:18You lost
32:19your sister?
32:20Yeah.
32:20You took
32:21on her
32:21kids with
32:22your wife
32:22and then
32:22you lost
32:23the calmest,
32:23sweetest baby,
32:24you say the
32:25most well-behaved
32:25kid in the
32:26world.
32:26What was,
32:27I mean,
32:28it's a stupid
32:28question for
32:29all of you.
32:30What do you
32:30say,
32:30you know,
32:31what's the
32:33memory from
32:33that day for
32:34all of you,
32:34individually?
32:37Well,
32:38me and Kim
32:39worked in the
32:40same place.
32:42Kim worked in
32:43a hospital and
32:43I was a
32:44porter driver
32:44and basically
32:46Kim got a
32:47phone call
32:47saying that
32:48Jamie had
32:49went a-missing.
32:51So,
32:52it was round
32:52about tea
32:53time or
32:54something like
32:54that,
32:55you know,
32:56like a
32:57first break
32:57sort of thing
32:58before lunch
32:59and
33:00Kim said to me
33:03and Arthur,
33:04right,
33:05we jumped in
33:06the
33:06what's
33:07where you're
33:07going,
33:08started heading
33:09back home
33:10to Kim's
33:13mum's
33:13and
33:14we just,
33:16all of a sudden,
33:17we seen all
33:18these police
33:19cars all
33:20about the
33:21place.
33:21How quickly
33:22was Jamie
33:23found?
33:24About an hour,
33:25or just over an hour.
33:26Literally an hour?
33:27Yeah.
33:28And do we know
33:28what this boy's
33:29motive was?
33:32Pure evil.
33:34I think there are
33:34people who are
33:35born evil,
33:36who do not
33:36deserve to live
33:37in a civilised
33:38society.
33:38I don't know
33:38what he is.
33:41I don't think...
33:43He was 11-year-old,
33:47he should have
33:47known right from
33:48wrong.
33:48They said that
33:49he didn't,
33:50but he's 11.
33:51I love 11-year-olds.
33:54There's an evil
33:54seed there.
33:55When you discovered,
33:57I mean,
33:57there's the horror
33:58of him going
33:58missing,
33:59and very quickly
33:59you discovered
34:00that he's been
34:01killed.
34:02Some people
34:02that goes on
34:03for weeks and
34:04weeks.
34:04How do you deal
34:04with anything
34:05like that?
34:05That day,
34:06do you remember
34:06that day?
34:08Yeah, I do.
34:08I mean,
34:09most people would
34:09say they don't
34:10remember anything
34:10from being four
34:11years old,
34:12but, I mean,
34:12if you go through
34:13something as
34:14horrible as that,
34:15it's going to be
34:16etched in your
34:16memory forever,
34:17and it really
34:17does.
34:18I'll never forget
34:19walking into
34:20my gran's house
34:20and my gran
34:21absolutely in tears
34:23and being held
34:23by a policewoman
34:24and just
34:27obviously not
34:28understanding what
34:29death was,
34:29but me knowing
34:30that Jamie was
34:31gone and he
34:31wasn't coming
34:32back.
34:32I was four
34:33years old.
34:34I mean,
34:34I've got a son
34:35at four years
34:35old and he
34:36doesn't even
34:36know what
34:37death is,
34:37and when I
34:37look at that,
34:38just to comprehend,
34:40and I'll never
34:40forget it.
34:41Does time stand
34:42still, really,
34:43in that instance?
34:45Time's got to go,
34:46and I did that
34:47day, there's an awful
34:49lot I don't remember
34:49right up to,
34:51I remember
34:51everything right up
34:53to how I was
34:53told, and then I
34:55can just remember
34:55wee patches of
34:56things.
34:57Do you ever
34:57recover from
34:59something like
34:59this?
34:59No.
35:01Yes, I learnt
35:02deal with it.
35:02You've learnt to deal
35:03with it.
35:03You've got to,
35:04you've got to,
35:04you've got to,
35:04you've got to,
35:04you've got to,
35:04you've got to,
35:04you've got to,
35:05you've got to,
35:05sorry?
35:06Day-to-day dealing
35:07with it, can't you?
35:07Yeah, yeah, it's...
35:09I think I'd be just
35:10so angry, I'd be,
35:11I'd just be wanting
35:11to...
35:12Oh, there's,
35:12there's anger there.
35:13I mean,
35:15there's anger every day,
35:17sometimes,
35:18regarding it.
35:19What did you think
35:20when, um,
35:21Kimberley decided to
35:22do that post and
35:22come here?
35:23Do you think it's
35:23an important...
35:24Well, she, uh-huh,
35:25she, she just asked
35:26me and I, you know,
35:27thought about it.
35:27I said, well, go ahead
35:28if you want it.
35:29Not thinking it would,
35:31you know,
35:32I thought she was
35:33just going to put
35:33a wee post.
35:34I never thought it would...
35:35I think you're
35:36absolutely right,
35:36and I think you did
35:37it really well,
35:38because I think
35:38there will be people,
35:39you talked about
35:40being trolled by
35:41some people who
35:42are too sad to have
35:43a life.
35:45I'm sure some people
35:45will watch this
35:46and will say,
35:47they've only ever
35:49known about the
35:49Bulger case,
35:50or they should have
35:50known about the
35:51Jamie Campbell case,
35:52and for me,
35:53I'm glad we did it,
35:53because I think
35:54it's important for him.
35:55Yeah.
35:56I think it's important
35:57to make people aware.
35:59Although, interestingly,
36:00on that one,
36:01how can you make
36:02people aware
36:03of badly evil people?
36:05Yeah.
36:06And actually,
36:07in terms of crime,
36:09if you see an
36:0911-year-old
36:10taking a 3-year-old,
36:12it's not the same,
36:13is it,
36:13as an adult
36:14dragging a child off?
36:15But his memory
36:17won't die,
36:17and I'm really
36:18pleased that we did
36:19this,
36:19and I hope that
36:20you guys feel
36:20the same about that.
36:21Yes.
36:22Glad you did it?
36:23Yeah.
36:24It doesn't matter
36:25what happened,
36:26it doesn't matter.
36:27I'm glad that I did it.
36:28Just...
36:28Give me a round of applause.
36:30Thank you, guys.
36:31Thank you very much indeed.
36:32Very nice to meet you.
36:33Stay there.
36:34All right?
36:35Unless you're scared of yourself.
36:36All right?
36:38We're going to a break.
36:39Give him a round of applause.
36:39Back next to more
36:40from the JK Show.
36:41My phone rang,
36:45and it was my mum
36:45and I pulled over,
36:47and there was
36:48piercing screams.
36:50It's Michael.
36:54Michael's dead.
36:59At Mike's grave,
37:00she was on her hands
37:01and knees
37:01clawing at the earth
37:02screaming his name.
37:03Have you been betrayed
37:10by someone close to you?
37:11Maybe you've been accused
37:12and you need to clear your name.
37:14If you're 18 or over
37:15and you'd like to be considered
37:16for the show,
37:16email talk at itv.com
37:18along with your number.
37:19Text talk plus your name
37:20to 63334.
37:22Text plus 25 pence
37:23plus one standard rate message.
37:24Or you can call my team today.
37:26It's 09011.
37:27It's 123456.
37:29Calls plus 25 pence
37:30plus network access charge.
37:33Thank you, my friends.
37:41Welcome back.
37:42My next guest,
37:43Eugene lost his oldest brother
37:44in 2015
37:45after he was brutally murdered
37:47by one of his friends.
37:48Let's take a look
37:49at this news footage
37:49of Eugene
37:50and his mother, Helen.
37:53Pictures of his brother's life
37:55mounted on ribbon
37:56from his funeral flowers.
37:58Such a beautiful man.
38:01He has an absolute heart cold.
38:03Michael Scardifield
38:04was murdered 18 months ago,
38:07punched to the ground
38:07then strangled by a man
38:09with numerous convictions
38:10for violence
38:11during an afternoon
38:12drinking session.
38:13His killer will serve
38:15a minimum of 18 years.
38:17His family say theirs
38:18is a full life sentence.
38:22Eugene says that Michael's murder
38:23has torn his family apart
38:25and he fears that he
38:26and his mum, Helen,
38:27won't ever fully come to terms
38:28with what happened.
38:29They're both here
38:29to share their story
38:31in the hope, I guess,
38:32that they can help others
38:33but also try and get
38:34some sort of movement
38:36forward in their lives.
38:37Brave guys.
38:37Well, Eugene's on
38:38the Jeremy Carr show
38:39that way.
38:49Eugene, these are the stories
38:51that are almost impossible to do
38:54because one doesn't even know
38:56where to start
38:57or what to say.
38:59What was your relationship
39:01like with your brother?
39:02You know, growing up,
39:04me and Michael
39:05were typical siblings.
39:07You know, we scrapped
39:09and we had our disagreements
39:11and, you know,
39:13it's no different
39:14to any sibling, you know.
39:16You said there was
39:17something unique about this boy.
39:18He was so kind
39:19and so helpful.
39:20He was.
39:22Michael had such a heart of gold.
39:24You know, he didn't have
39:25a confrontational bone
39:26in his body.
39:27You know, if you turned up
39:29on Michael's doorstep
39:30and you was hungry
39:30and he had one tin of beans,
39:32he would get two spoons out.
39:33That was Michael.
39:34He always wanted to see
39:35the best in people.
39:36He always wanted to help anyone,
39:38anyone he could.
39:39You know, he,
39:40even when he went through
39:42his own battles,
39:43he still,
39:44he would still be there for,
39:46you know,
39:46to help,
39:47to help anyone he could.
39:48I think the interesting thing is,
39:50and, you know,
39:51horrible, horrible murders
39:52and atrocities that happen,
39:54we see them on television
39:56or we read about them
39:56in newspapers,
39:57but when you meet somebody
39:59that's the result of,
40:01you know,
40:01is a victim from that surrender.
40:03So you've been very honest
40:04and you've said that
40:04it's destroyed your family
40:06and you don't believe
40:07that your mum,
40:09you and other members
40:10of the family
40:10will ever recover.
40:11How do you,
40:12how do you function?
40:12What do you do?
40:14Me personally,
40:14because you went off the rails,
40:16didn't you?
40:17Yeah, I did, yeah.
40:17I mean,
40:18shortly after Michael was taken,
40:20you go through all the emotions,
40:22denial, sadness, confusion.
40:24Anger.
40:25Anger.
40:25I mean,
40:25I was self-medicated with rum.
40:28I mean,
40:28at one point,
40:29I think I drank eight litres of rum
40:30in one week.
40:32I mean,
40:32that's,
40:33anybody will know,
40:34that's a dangerous amount
40:35of alcohol to be consumed.
40:36Did you want to join him?
40:37Um,
40:39partially, yeah.
40:40Yeah, I did.
40:41Yeah.
40:42The guilt.
40:43That it wasn't you.
40:44That it wasn't me, yeah.
40:45Tell me about that day,
40:46if you can.
40:47Um,
40:48my cousin died of cystic fibrosis
40:50when she was six
40:51and on her birthday,
40:52I'd take flowers to her grave.
40:54I was on my way to the cemetery
40:55when my phone rang
40:56and it was my mum
40:57and I pulled over
40:58and there was
41:00piercing screams.
41:02It's Michael.
41:02Michael's dead.
41:09It felt like I was
41:10punched in the stomach,
41:13the chest and the face
41:13all in once.
41:14I felt sick.
41:15Did she go to court?
41:17Did I?
41:18Yeah.
41:19Yeah,
41:19I sat through the whole
41:19court process, yeah.
41:20What was that like?
41:22Um,
41:23again,
41:24you go for all the emotions again,
41:25you know,
41:26but looking at him,
41:28he had,
41:28he had no emotion.
41:30Martin Bircher was convicted
41:31of murder in February
41:322016 at Nottingham's Crown Court.
41:34He was sentenced to life
41:35imprisonment with a minimum
41:36of 18 years
41:37for murdering Michael Scarfield
41:39on the 30th of May 2015.
41:43What do you feel about that?
41:45His sentence isn't a sentence.
41:47Our sentence,
41:47up here.
41:49There's no cell that he could be
41:50in that's any darker
41:51than my mind.
41:53That's the,
41:53that's,
41:53we're serving the life sentence
41:55up there.
41:56You know,
41:56what have we got?
41:58That's why we wanted
41:59to do the story.
41:59I know that's why
42:00you wanted to do the story
42:01because although you've been
42:03in a very dark place,
42:04both you and your mum,
42:05you've,
42:05you,
42:06you've found some solace
42:07with the group,
42:08haven't you?
42:08Yeah,
42:08there's a charity called
42:09Sam National
42:09which is support
42:10after murder
42:11and manslaughter
42:11and the charity
42:13is completely run
42:14by people
42:14who've had a loved one
42:15taken by murder
42:16and manslaughter.
42:16they helped me a lot
42:19and in return
42:20I want to help them.
42:29How's your mum?
42:30If that's not a stupid question.
42:33Mum is,
42:35mum's the strongest woman
42:36I know.
42:38For a woman to stand up
42:39in court
42:40and read her own
42:41impact statement out
42:42is beyond me.
42:45I mean,
42:46I know mum cries
42:47behind closed doors,
42:48I know she does,
42:49but she still
42:51tries to be mum,
42:52she still tries
42:53to cushion
42:54our heartache.
42:56You know,
42:57me and my siblings,
42:58she tries to cushion us.
42:59I've seen mum,
43:00once I think,
43:01I've seen mum cry
43:02throughout all this.
43:03At Mike's grave,
43:04she was on her hands
43:05and knees
43:05clawing at the earth
43:06screaming his name.
43:07having to watch that
43:10is just
43:11soul destroying.
43:14Listen,
43:14she should be
43:15very proud of you,
43:15you're an amazing man
43:16and she's an amazing lady.
43:18Thank you for coming on.
43:18Helen's on the
43:19Jeremy Carr show,
43:20that one.
43:37I can't,
43:40as I said to
43:41Eugene,
43:42Helen,
43:42I'm not going to
43:44insult you
43:44by asking you
43:45what something like that
43:46does to you.
43:48How do you get
43:48to where you are today?
43:50Eugene's talked
43:50incredibly honestly
43:52about that support group
43:54and he talked about
43:55you in court.
43:56How did you get through this?
43:57Do you not get through this?
43:58Is every day
43:59the sentence
44:00that Eugene was talking about?
44:02No.
44:03My birthday's
44:04the 29th of May,
44:05which is the day
44:06before Michael was murdered.
44:08And usually
44:09it falls on a
44:10bank holiday weekend.
44:12So we always had
44:12big family barbecues
44:14in my garden.
44:15All my kids,
44:16my grandkids,
44:18my brothers and sisters,
44:19friends.
44:20It used to be
44:20a huge party.
44:23And in 2015,
44:26we weren't having one.
44:29I was going away
44:29on holiday
44:30on the 2nd of June.
44:33And we decided
44:35not to,
44:36we decided
44:36not to have one.
44:40But we had
44:40a few drinks
44:41on the...
44:42Do you feel guilty
44:42that you're going to tell me now
44:43if you wish you'd had
44:44the birthday party
44:45you'd have been there, right?
44:45Of course.
44:46Yeah, of course.
44:48What do you make
44:49of your son
44:50sat next to you?
44:51He's extremely brave,
44:55but he's also
44:57struggling a great deal.
45:00You worry about him,
45:01don't you?
45:02I do, yeah.
45:03Especially when he goes off drinking.
45:06Because it,
45:07like he said,
45:08there was a week
45:09that he drank
45:10eight litres of rum.
45:12And that could kill anyone.
45:15Can I ask you something?
45:17What would Mike say
45:18to you right now
45:19if you were drinking
45:20eight litres of rum?
45:21What would he do?
45:23He'd be worried.
45:24He'd want to hold me
45:25and hug me.
45:28Michael ain't got a choice,
45:29but you have,
45:30haven't you?
45:31Yeah, and that's why
45:32I stopped drinking
45:32and started charity work.
45:34Really, really proud of you.
45:36You must be proud of him
45:37having done that.
45:37I am.
45:38I am, absolutely.
45:40What about you?
45:40You seem like,
45:41you said it,
45:42you're like Superwoman.
45:43You must have your moments,
45:44don't you?
45:45Of course I do.
45:46They're private moments.
45:48I'm a mum
45:49and my children come first
45:51and my grandchildren
45:51come first.
45:53I love that.
45:55Listen.
45:57I, uh,
45:57sorry,
45:58they'll all...
45:59Where do you go
46:02from here, sweetheart?
46:05We carry on fighting.
46:07We carry on
46:07trying to get through
46:09each day.
46:10Um,
46:10it's difficult
46:11when people
46:13turn away from you.
46:15We, we...
46:16You get completely alienated.
46:18You do.
46:19Because people
46:19don't know how to react.
46:21Yeah, because they
46:21don't know what to say.
46:23What do you say
46:24to someone?
46:25And they ask,
46:26how many children
46:26have you got?
46:28Well, do I lie
46:29and say,
46:30well,
46:31because I've got
46:31the ones that are living,
46:33Michael doesn't exist,
46:34and then it's,
46:35well,
46:35how old's your oldest one then?
46:37You must have been young.
46:38How old's your oldest one?
46:40Well, he was 40.
46:41What do you mean
46:42he was 40?
46:44He died.
46:45Oh, I'm sorry.
46:46What happened?
46:47How did he...
46:48I said he was killed.
46:50And then,
46:50and it's still,
46:51oh,
46:52was it a car accident
46:53or something like that?
46:54No, he was murdered.
46:56And then there's that
46:57shock
46:57on their faces
46:59and they don't know
47:00what to say
47:01and it's like,
47:02I wish I hadn't asked.
47:04Let me get out of here
47:05as soon as I can.
47:07When people talk about Michael,
47:08they think it's going to give us
47:10a reminder
47:10of what happened.
47:11But he's there the whole time anyway.
47:13Yeah, he is.
47:13We've got that reminder
47:14every single day.
47:15And that's, I guess,
47:16the way that you keep
47:17somebody's memory going
47:18by talking about him, right?
47:20If you talk to us,
47:21you can talk about the weather,
47:22talk about football,
47:23talk about kids.
47:24Just because Michael was murdered
47:26doesn't mean that has to be
47:27the topic of conversation.
47:28But that's what a lot of people think.
47:30You are a super mum.
47:32He says that
47:32when you stood up in court
47:34and did your speech,
47:35there wasn't a dry eye in the house.
47:36No.
47:37And I wrote that
47:38while I was sat by my son's coffin.
47:42Amazing.
47:42Put a lot of people to shame.
47:44Thank you both so much
47:45for coming here.
47:46Thank you for sharing your story
47:48and I hope that it helps people out there
47:49and more importantly
47:50helps you guys as well.
47:51Thank you so much.
47:52Are you all right to go that way?
47:55Is that all right?
47:56Thanks very much.
47:56Give him a round of applause.
48:00I think I still, 14 years on,
48:03learn that lesson
48:04every time we do a show like this.
48:06We have a lot of people
48:07on the Jeremy Kyle show
48:08that seem to moan
48:09about absolutely nothing.
48:10Then we have people
48:10who have had real hardship
48:12and horror happen
48:12and somehow
48:13they find the strength
48:14to get on with their lives
48:15and not moan about it.
48:16I'm out of time for today.
48:17If you want to be here,
48:18you need my help,
48:19visit my website.
48:19I like the details on the screen.
48:20Thanks for watching.
48:21We'll see you soon.
48:21Take care.
48:22Bye-bye for now.
48:22APPLAUSE
48:49Bye-bye for now.
48:52Bye-bye for now.
48:53Bye-bye for now.
48:54Bye-bye for now.
48:55Bye-bye for now.
48:56Bye-bye for now.
48:57Bye-bye for now.
48:58Bye-bye for now.
48:59Bye-bye for now.
49:00Bye-bye for now.
49:01Bye-bye for now.
49:02Bye-bye for now.
49:03Bye-bye for now.
49:04Bye-bye for now.
49:05Bye-bye for now.
49:06Bye-bye for now.
49:07Bye-bye for now.
49:08Bye-bye for now.
49:09Bye-bye for now.
49:10Bye-bye for now.
49:11Bye-bye for now.
49:12Bye-bye for now.
49:13Bye-bye for now.
49:14Bye-bye for now.
49:15Bye-bye for now.
49:16Bye-bye for now.
49:17Bye-bye for now.