As a rattled Pakistan shored up its military presence along the border in anticipation of an imminent strike by India following the Pahalgam terror attack, retired officials from the armed forces debate the current situation and Prime Minister Narendra Modi's key security meeting.
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00:00Good evening, it's an evening of fast-paced developments.
00:07Prime Minister Narendra Modi has just held a meeting with Raksha Mantri Rajnath Singh,
00:13with the National Security Advisor Ajit Doval,
00:16with the Chief of Defence Staff General Anil Chauhan,
00:20and with the three services chiefs.
00:22And this is a very crucial meeting.
00:24The Prime Minister has given them clear instructions
00:27from what sources tell India today.
00:30They have to teach terror a lesson.
00:35We've got exclusive details from the Prime Minister's security meeting.
00:40This meeting that lasted over 90 minutes.
00:43Top government sources are telling India today,
00:45the Prime Minister said,
00:49India's national resolve is to deal a crushing blow to terror.
00:54The Prime Minister said, from what sources tell India today,
00:57he has absolute faith, complete faith and confidence in the professional abilities
01:04of the Indian Armed Forces of the Army, the Navy and the Air Force.
01:10The Prime Minister said they have complete operational freedom to decide on the mode,
01:16the target and the timing of India's response.
01:21response, very, very clear that it's the armed forces that will decide whether it's the army that's to hit across,
01:30whether it's the Navy, the Air Force, two services, three services, all of them together,
01:36all of them at different points of time, they have to decide.
01:39But a crushing blow has to be dealt to Pakistan state-sponsored radical Islamist terror.
01:45Let me also tell you, on this special broadcast, we'll tell you what's happening across the border,
01:49because Pakistan too has started a series of very aggressive manoeuvres.
01:54The Pakistan Army, it's resorted to ceasefire violations for the fifth straight day.
01:59From Lipa Valley, to Kupwara, to Barambula, and this is what's happening north of Peer Panjal.
02:04South of Peer Panjal, from Punj to Akhnoor, there are ceasefire violations.
02:08The Pakistan Army has also started a series of air and ground exercises.
02:13And what are their exercises called?
02:15Fiza-e-Badr, drawing parallel with that Battle of Badr.
02:19Now, this is in the Northern Air Command of Pakistan.
02:23Exercise, Lalkar-e-Momeen.
02:26That's how Pakistan's Army Chief, who's seen as a radical Islamist, General Asim Munir,
02:32that's how they're naming their exercises, Lalkar-e-Momeen.
02:35That's almost like it's the Lalkar of the faithful, of the Muslims.
02:39And this is a Central Air Command exercise, which covers the Lahore and the Cholistan Desert.
02:44And I'll get you much, much more on this story.
02:47Then, Zarbe Haidri.
02:49It's almost like the sword of Haidar.
02:52This is an exercise in the Northern areas.
02:54And there's an exercise all the way from the LOC to Khaybar Pakhtunkhwa,
02:58because that is where Pakistan fears that India could hit again.
03:02They've also issued a NOTAM or a notice to airmen.
03:05Much more on this big story.
03:07But first is always the headlines on India First at 8.
03:12Pakistan's hand clear in the Pahalgam attack.
03:23Sources say a Pakistan Army paracommando is one of the terrorists involved in the April 22nd attack.
03:29Terrorists were trained to use precision weapons.
03:33Seven days after the Pahalgam attack, the National Investigation Agency traces photographs and videos of the terrorists.
03:45Three terrorists opened fire in the Besaran Valley as two others shot at fleeing tourists at the exit.
03:52This is how they planned it.
03:54A horrific new video of the Pahalgam massacre shows moments when the terrorists fired at tourists.
04:06The zipliner operative who was heard chanting Allahu Akbar cold for questioning.
04:13Ugly terror politics escalates.
04:21Congress takes headless guy of jive at Prime Minister Narendra Modi.
04:26BJP insists this is the Congress' Sartan Se Juda Mindset.
04:38RSS leader says stop burial prayers for terrorists.
04:42If terrorists ask if terror has no religion, then why offer namaz-e-janazah?
04:59From what top government sources are telling India today, Prime Minister Narendra Modi has given the forces a clear hand, a free hand, to deal with Pakistan state-sponsored radical Islamist terror.
05:11The Prime Minister said it is India's national resolve to deal a crushing blow to terror.
05:18That's what top sources are telling India today.
05:21And these are images, these are visuals of that meeting at 7 Lok Kalyan Marg, a meeting that lasted over 90 minutes.
05:27You see the Prime Minister, the Raksha Mantri, the Chief of Defence Staff, General Upendra Dvedi, the Chief of Army Staff, the National Security Advisor.
05:35You see in these images, Ajit Doval, you see Admiral Dinesh Tripathi, the Chief of Naval Staff, and of course, Air Chief Marshal AP Singh, Chief of Air Staff.
05:46The Prime Minister shared this meeting where today is day 7 of that horrific, horrific Pahalgam attack.
05:55This is where those Pakistani terrorists, they singled out those tourists, asked them their names, found out those who were Hindus, those who could not recite the Kalma.
06:05They were shot dead at point-blank range.
06:07And that's actually shaken the conscience of the nation.
06:11Only a state sponsor of radical Islamist terror like Pakistan and that too, when the army chief of that country is a radical Islamist himself,
06:20the manner in which he speaks and not just then, but even subsequently, General Asim Munir,
06:26for his personal survival is what sources tell India today.
06:28He carried out this, he ordered this strike on India.
06:32But, if you look at the Prime Minister's expression, his resolve and the resolve of the armed forces,
06:38the state sponsors of radical Islamist terror will be taught a lesson.
06:44And perhaps a lesson that they hadn't even thought of.
06:47And some of it has started happening a lot more, needs to happen in the days, weeks, how long will it take, we still do not know.
06:53Because this meeting, we can tell you, lasted about 90 minutes.
06:56It's been an assessment of the situation on ground.
06:59The Prime Minister spoke of the need to crush, crush this terror.
07:05Full faith and confidence in the armed forces.
07:07They have the professional abilities.
07:09They have to decide the target.
07:11They have to choose the target and they have to strike at a place and time of their choosing.
07:16But then, the adversary across, Pakistanis should get that message,
07:20that killing Indians is no longer a low-cost option for them to even remain in power.
07:26Because that's what they do.
07:27When they say Kashmir is their juggler vein, and this is what sources are telling India today,
07:32it's the juggler vein of the army that wants to remain in power in Pakistan.
07:36As far as Shahbaz Sharif is concerned, the Prime Minister or anybody else, they are not in power.
07:41It is Aasem Munir who wants to remain in power and longer, perhaps indefinitely.
07:47He, anyway, has ensured that he'll stay in power till 2027, but is that actually the case?
07:52Because there are some murmurs that are emerging from Pakistan.
07:55And on this broadcast, we'll give you details about how that country is facing immense trouble internally,
08:01from Gilgit, Baltistan to Baluchistan, from Khaybar Pakhtunkhwa to Sindh.
08:07So, the army chief, who's unable to manage troubles in his own country,
08:10to divert attention from the problems he's facing, he targets innocent Hindus in Pehelgaam.
08:17And perhaps the message of this meeting is, enough is enough.
08:20There will be a response at a place and time of India's choosing.
08:23Now, let me tell you what's happening across the border in Pakistan.
08:26And do see Pakistan's manoeuvres.
08:29Fifth day of massive ceasefire violations.
08:33Initially, it was small arms.
08:34Now, there is escalation.
08:36So, when you look at the escalation ladder,
08:38Pakistan is now using bigger caliber weapons at the LC.
08:43It hasn't yet escalated to howitzers.
08:45It hasn't yet escalated, you know, to the 155mm howitzers.
08:49Because this is where, once India starts punishing Pakistan,
08:52once India starts carrying out those fire assaults like India did before the Ramzan ceasefire of 2003,
08:58do keep in mind, Pakistan sued for that Ramzan ceasefire
09:02because India was punishing Pakistan all along the 770km long line of control.
09:07But right now, from Kupwara to Baramula, north of Peer Panjal,
09:11and Akhnur to Punt, south of Peer Panjal, there are ceasefire violations.
09:15Pakistan, the exercises it's carrying out.
09:17And three major exercises as far as the air force is concerned.
09:20And we have aviators who are joining us on this broadcast.
09:23They'll explain the significance and the names of these exercises.
09:26Fizay Badr.
09:28That's the exercise that the Northern Air Command of Pakistan is carrying out.
09:32Lalkar-e-Momeen is the exercise that the Central Air Command is carrying out.
09:37And this is the exercise.
09:38Lalkar-e-Momeen is for protection not just of Lahore, but also the Cholistan Desert.
09:43Cholistan Desert has another story where there's a fight between Punjab and Sindh
09:47happening over the Indus Waters Treaty.
09:49So, holding the Indus Waters Treaty in a bench is already some level of punishment
09:54that is being inflicted on Pakistan more when they realize that Pakistan Army Chief
09:59Aasem Munir's pet project of Cholistan Desert, greening of that Cholistan Desert,
10:05is now just a pipe dream.
10:07But then there's a third exercise they're carrying out.
10:09That's exercise Zarbe Haidri.
10:11That's happening in the Northern Areas.
10:13And this is a high-intensity air activity.
10:16This is where Pakistan fears there could be an airstrike in Gilgit and in Baltistan.
10:22Pakistan in panic has issued a NOTAM.
10:25NOTAM is noticed to airmen and that is a signal that it is sealing off its airspace
10:31all over Lahore and Islamabad for the course of this exercise.
10:35Is this also a message that Pakistan intends to fire a missile, a tester missile which is
10:41of course over Arabian Sea because it's also issued a warning there?
10:45Or is Pakistan fearing a ground strike?
10:49Joining me on this India Today special broadcast is Air Marshal Anil Chopra, former Director General
10:54of Centre for Air Pass Studies.
10:56He's also a former Mirage 2000 pilot, Lieutenant General KJS Dhillon.
11:02General Tiny Dhillon is well-known, former GOC of the Kashmir Corps, Director General of
11:07Defence Intelligence Agencies he was and also the Debris Chief of Integrated Defence Staff
11:12at the time of Pulwama and subsequent action that took place.
11:16He was at the helm of affairs in Kashmir.
11:18Vice Admiral Shekhar Sina is former Flag Officer Commanding-in-Chief of Indian Navy's
11:22Western Naval Command, he's a naval aviator himself and of course Tilak Deveshar is former
11:28member of the National Security Advisory Board, he's former Special Secretary of the Research
11:33and Analysis Wing and someone who knows Pakistan like the back of his hand and he understands
11:41the mindset, our experts understand the Pakistani mindset and that is why defeating the enemy
11:46in his mind, equally important if not more, before defeating him on ground.
11:50You couldn't forget a better panel, before I come to our panel, I also want to bring
11:54in our reporters, but first, get you this report on the day's developments.
11:58The BrahMos supersonic anti-ship and anti-surface cruise missiles being launched in the Arabian
12:19Sea, India's indigenous guided missile destroyer INS Surat successfully hits a sea-skimming target
12:32using a medium-range surface-to-air missile.
12:38A public display of these precision offensive weapons is making Pakistan very nervous.
12:50Pakistan's Defence Minister Khwaja Asif fears Pakistan's expecting a punishment for Pahelgaam.
13:00But obviously, you know, we have reinforced our forces because it is something which is imminent
13:13now.
13:14A flustered Pakistan has now scrambled its fighter jets.
13:22Pakistan Air Force has announced two major air exercises, Fizai Badr and Lalkar-e-Momin,
13:32and displayed its key air assets, the J-10 fighters, the F-16s, the JF-17 Thunders, the Saab-2000
13:43airborne early warning and command and control platform, and the EW aircraft.
13:49Pakistan has also put on display its air defence units.
13:56Air space between Lahore and Islamabad has been closed for the next 48 hours.
14:05And that's not all.
14:07Pakistan has shifted its radar systems to forward locations in the Sialkot sector to detect what
14:16Pakistan fears is an imminent Indian airstrike.
14:22The electronic warfare detachments of the Pakistan Army are also moving to its forward locations
14:28to detect Indian movements in the Ferozpur sector.
14:35We are absolutely ready, high alert.
14:40If there is a violation of our air space or there is a violation on the ground, if we are
14:49engaged in any way on the seas, we are prepared to respond.
14:56Inshallah, we will give a befitting response to India.
15:02For the fifth consecutive day, Pakistan violated ceasefire along the line of control and opened fire
15:14on both sides of the Pir Panjal ranges.
15:20The Pakistan Army has been firing without any provocation in Kupwara and Baramula north of Pir Panjal,
15:28and Punsh and Akhnur sectors south of Pir Panjal.
15:34There is a likelihood that India will attempt an incursion in Pakistan and will engage Pakistan militarily.
15:45That is a possibility, a very clear and stark possibility. Cannot be ruled out.
15:54The possibility of Indian strike appears very high in the Pakistani minds.
16:04Prime Minister Narendra Modi has already warned of unimaginable punishment.
16:10For that, the citizens of the country, and the citizens of this battle,
16:18will also be the great victory to receive their sins.
16:25Now, the citizens of the country will also get the great victory to get the dead.
16:28because it has come to get a good land in the middle of the land.
16:58CES on Wednesday morning.
17:01In the last meeting, India launched a huge diplomatic strike on Pakistan and announced
17:08the suspension of the Indus Waters Treaty that again has made Pakistan very jittery.
17:17What will India's next move be remains the big question.
17:25With Shivani Sharma and Manjit Negi in Delhi, Puro Report, India Today.
17:32Are we to understand Pakistan is on tenterhooks?
17:39Are we also to understand that something is imminent?
17:43General Dhillon, you were in a similar situation in 2019 and in 2019 it took about 12 days after
17:52the Pulwama terror attack for India to do bala coat.
17:55Very few people knew what was going to happen.
17:58You were amongst those.
18:00What do you make of the Prime Minister's meeting right now with the NSA, the CDS, with RM,
18:06Ravid Raksha Mantri and the three service chiefs, sir?
18:08Good evening, Gaurav and good evening to all your viewers and my fellow panelists.
18:14Gaurav, these meetings which are happening, there is something which is for display and
18:20there are some meetings which happen behind the closed doors which are not for public consumption.
18:27So there are two types of things which are happening.
18:30The Prime Minister very clearly said that they will be in the middle of the border and they
18:35will be in the middle of the border.
18:36They will be in the middle of the border and they will be in the middle of the border.
18:40And this government walks the talk.
18:44And you can see the fumbleness in the voice of Defence Minister of Pakistan.
18:48And you can see otherwise also, you know, the airspace has been blocked.
18:53You see the families of the senior generals have gone abroad.
18:56And you see, you know, they are showing signs of being nervous.
19:03And the Cholistan is a very big issue.
19:07And I'm very sure somebody on the panel will touch upon this.
19:10And since there is already a crisis which is being, you know, sort of generated because
19:16of Cholistan being a favorite subject and baby of Asif Munir and since being neglected.
19:23You must understand Indus Valley or Indus River.
19:27Sin is named after Indus River and denying the underwater to sin at the cost of Cholistan
19:33desert are big things.
19:34So coming back to your question, these meetings, these display of weapon systems is a posturing.
19:41And when nations or militaries posture, there are two types.
19:46One is the posture and do something else and keep the enemy guessing.
19:51One is the posture and do the same thing so that the enemy would keep expecting them somewhere
19:56else.
19:57But at the same time, the combination of theseâĻ
19:59Okay.
20:00The combination, what do we make or what do we gauge?
20:03Is this a morale booster for the nation, Air Marshal Chopra, or is this to sap the morale
20:10of the adversary?
20:11Because General Tahini Dhillon is under the impression that the Pakistani defence minister's voice was
20:18shaking.
20:19Post Pulwama, we heard that their army chief's legs were shaking when Balakot happened and they
20:25said,
20:26But if there's a shake in the voice of the Pakistani defence minister, are we over-assessing
20:33a situation?
20:34What do you make of the Prime Minister's meeting and the Prime Minister's message from what sources
20:38tell India today?
20:39You know, Gaurav, undoubtedly Pakistan is in a little bit of a state of panic.
20:45You know, I'm a hawk.
20:47I believe in disproportionate response.
20:50I'm very happy that Indian Prime Minister, Prime Minister Modi, has been not missing any
20:57words in public rallies or during the meeting that you have been repeatedly showing this morning.
21:03We know the body language, we can see how the entire security establishment is sitting together.
21:10They're chalking out some plans.
21:11I must tell you when Balakot happened, why it took 10, 12 days.
21:15It was timing.
21:16You know, that night we were having the National War Memorial being inaugurated at 5 o'clock
21:23in the evening.
21:24And that very night, in the midnight at 2.30, you know, which is called the graveyard shift
21:32time, that is the time we carried out a strike.
21:35So there is a lot of planning going on.
21:37You know, these exercises that Pakistan is doing, air-to-air exercise, they are just, you
21:42know, it's time to impress the world.
21:45They are trying to, you know, tell India that they are very prepared.
21:47But I must tell you, Indian Air Force between 2019 and today is a different ballgame altogether.
21:56You know, we have the Nepal, we have the S-400, we have, you know, upgraded Mirage 2000, MiG-29s,
22:03we have Su-30, we have got large quantity of BrahMos, we have got the cruise missiles, we have got
22:10the scalp, we have got a lot of variety.
22:13So firstly, I want to tell the nation that Indian Air Force and Indian Army and the Navy
22:18are much, much better off to take on any eventuality.
22:22Of course, it will be a political decision.
22:23I'm not trying to say that the war is going to start, but the pressure on the LOC has to
22:28increase, which has already started.
22:30It's not that only Pakistan is, you know, letting go some firing.
22:35I'm sure Indian Army is doing no less or should be doing much more.
22:39And remember, Pakistan will run out of ammunition much faster, the economy is in absolute trouble.
22:45So therefore, you know, whatever decisions we take, and I tell you, many times I'm reading
22:50in newspapers, you know, PL-12 and PL-15 missile, they must tell you PL-12 missile has got a
22:55range of less than 100 kilometers.
22:58Even if PL-15 is available with the J-10 CE, it will be the export version, which is the PL-15E.
23:08And the PL-15E has got a range of less than 140 kilometers.
23:13So, the point I'm making is that the Indian Armed Forces are in a much better position.
23:18The Indian Armed Forces are much better prepared, you say, in a much better position to inflict pain.
23:23And I'm sure Admiral Sina, Aasem Munir, I mean, he may be a radical Islamist, you know, as a chief,
23:31and the way he names his exercise, which we shall discuss subsequently.
23:35But then he must have war-gamed all of this.
23:38And yet he did the attack on Pehelgaam.
23:41Yet, you know, he's...
23:42And this time, the change, perhaps, is that India is not saying it was a Lashkar-e-Taiba, or a Jaish-e-Mohmad,
23:48or a Hezbollah Mujahideen, or non-state actors, or semi-state actors.
23:52It's directly Aasem Munir and Pakistan Army is what sources are telling India today.
23:57Admiral Sina, what do you make of the exercises that Pakistan is carrying out?
24:01What do you make of the Prime Minister's message to the Armed Forces,
24:04the body language of the three chiefs, the CDS, RM, and of course, NSA?
24:09Gaurav, thank you for having me on your program.
24:13You know, there are two aspects to what the Prime Minister has been saying,
24:18and I'm sure that he would have repeated.
24:20If you hear his speech very carefully, there are two aspects.
24:25One is a tactical move, and one is a strategic move.
24:30The tactical move is that there should be some visible punishment to Pakistan's establishment.
24:36And strategic move is a slightly longer term, which may take a little bit of time.
24:41Because when he says,
24:44So that's really a little long term, and I'm sure that he means business.
24:51Now, this time, my sense is that what he must have said that just go ahead and do the visible part.
24:59Not the visible part.
25:01Visible part for two reasons.
25:03One is that the expectation of our public is rising, and Prime Minister has made a public statement.
25:10Now, where will this attack come from?
25:12In what form it will come?
25:13I think we'll have to wait for the time to come, because it's very difficult to guess it now.
25:18And the second one, you know, I really don't believe that there is a terror group.
25:23The biggest terrorist group in Pakistan is the army.
25:26Yes.
25:27And that has to be eliminated.
25:28I really don't believe that, you know, there are all sort of, you know, field agents of the Pakistan army and the ISI.
25:35And therefore, removing them is a little long job.
25:41So, you see the, you see the, you know, voice of, you hear the voice of the Defence Minister of Pakistan.
25:48It's a very clear indication that there is a fair amount of larvousness going on.
25:52And a lot of, you know, gentlemen, I just mentioned what he has mentioned.
25:57And I quite agree with him, you know, having had the honour of serving in the ideas for a fairly long time.
26:05It is a fact that a lot of things are done to make an impact.
26:11And why Pakistan is doing all this, it is not because they are very ready.
26:15Yes, they must be ready because, you know, they're expecting an attack.
26:18But it is also for their audience to tell them that, look, you know, we are not behind.
26:24If Indian Army, Indian Air Force and Indian Navy is doing some preparation, so are we, we are ready.
26:29No, and the kind of names, the kind of names they're keeping for the exercises, Admiral Sina, Lalkar, Lalkar-e-Momeen,
26:39or Fizai Badr, drawing a parallel with the Battle of Badr, you know, in Islam, is seen as something which is very pious.
26:48So, and when you look at, when you hear Asim Munir, Asim Munir says only two countries have been formed on the name of Kalma.
26:55One is, is the Islamic empire, you know, on the orders of Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him.
27:02And, of course, the other, he says, is Pakistan.
27:04So, he's comparing himself to what Prophet Muhammad PBUH did and what's happening right now.
27:10So, is he like one of those radical Islamists and a radical Islamist with a nuke could be a cause for grave concern.
27:15Are we to understand Navy this time will have a bigger role to play?
27:18No, you are absolutely right. You know what, there are only two ways to collect the, you know, they have the collective idea of Pakistan to come on one frame.
27:29And that is Islam, right? That's the only thing which unites the whole country.
27:34And it is often repeated anytime that the Pakistani establishment wants people to forget what everything is and come around together to support the armed forces, you know, on the name of Islam.
27:47So, that is that. Navy's role, yesterday I had mentioned on some channel, I think it was your channel probably, that, you know, the Navy has the flexibility of shifting the entire theater of action to a different place from where the enemy is expecting.
28:02You know, we have a lot of freedom of movement, the Navy can move fast 600, 700 kilometers in, you know, 24 hours.
28:10And therefore, let the Pakistanis imagine what they are imagining.
28:15And the Navy might just do an attack from a different direction, from a different place.
28:19And doesn't have to do a very high intensity attack, even a small attack can really put them off.
28:25So, I think that Navy does have a role to play.
28:27But if you were to do an attack, you know, I want to welcome Tevilak Deveshar, former special secretary of RAW joining us on this broadcast.
28:35Sir, welcome. Before I come to you, I want to come back to General Dhillon on whether once we do a strike and they do a retaliatory strike, it's 1-1.
28:44I mean, we may have destroyed the terror training camp at Balakot, but Pakistan did do a swift retort and claim that they were in a position to strike our brigade headquarters and they chose not to.
28:56Even though my sources told me that they had fired close to 50 missiles and did not succeed air-to-air and some air-to-ground and they did not succeed in hitting a single target, except, of course, Winko Abhinandan's aircraft then.
29:08But I want to understand from you, if it was a repeat of, you know, we hit once and they hit once and we do a surgical strike and they say nothing happened.
29:15Then, do we still have that moral superiority and ascendancy in the battle? This time it has to be something bigger.
29:23Yeah, Gaurav, this time it has to be bigger, it has to be different than the last two strikes.
29:27One was the pure military-army strike after Uri and one was the pure air-force strike after Pulwama.
29:33Now, this time, one thing which is now again emerging is, this is the first time, you know, at least we have come to know who is the defense minister of Pakistan.
29:42Otherwise, the defense minister of Pakistan was a non-descript appointment.
29:47And now, Asif Munir is not coming in the front. He is not coming on the TV channels. He is not making statements.
29:53Now, suddenly the defense minister has come forward. And the point which you made, is he capable of striking back?
29:58Yes, he would try to strike back at some place to keep his people guessing and happy that I have done it.
30:06But one thing which is very clear, the dissimilarity or a similarity between the two forces, the war-fighting stamina, the point was touched by Admiral Chopra,
30:16Admiral Chopra, the war-fighting stamina of India is much larger than the Pakistan.
30:23So we need to make sure that we keep him engaged so that he, you know, finishes all his ammunition.
30:30Today's ammunition are not cheap. They're very expensive. And we know what is his holding.
30:35So it is in our favor, if we stagger the operations for a longer duration, when I say longer duration, more than one strike.
30:44And if Pakistan gives us a reason to do it, then he will be damned.
30:48Very interesting. So this is where we have the spirit.
30:52Very, very interesting. So you're saying, strike, wait for a response, wait for your time, and then strike again.
31:00Yes.
31:01And then strike again, and again, and continue to strike that state sponsor of radical Islamist terror.
31:06Tilak Deveshwar, you understand the Pakistani mind very well. Did, and you understand Asif Munir's mind, Asif Munir's mind.
31:15What do you make of what the Prime Minister said, what Pakistan is doing, the kind of exercising he's carrying out, the names like,
31:22Lalkar-e-Momeen, Fizai-e-Badr. Is he trying to draw this Muslims versus Hindus in this conflict as far as the Pakistani mind is concerned?
31:33Thank you, Gaurav.
31:37Thank you, Gaurav. You know, I think, given what the Prime Minister said, you know, in Bihar, he talked about unimaginable consequences.
31:48And, you know, Mitti, I don't think it's only a terror strike, but a strike against a terror target is going to fill the bill.
31:57I think it's going to be much more. And, you know, the immediate reaction that came after 24 hours, especially the non-kinetic, holding the Indus-Portor Treaty in abeyance,
32:09that is going to have very serious long-term consequences for Pakistan.
32:17You know, we all want swift retribution. We want to see attack. We want to see destruction.
32:24But, you know, holding the treaty in abeyance means that you disrupt their water supplies.
32:34Yes.
32:35There's a time when the early karif is going to be starting in the, you know, first half of May.
32:42And if you disrupt the sowing and also the harvest, it'll have very serious consequences for Pakistan's agriculture.
32:50So that's one part of it. As far as the kinetic operations are concerned, you see, Pakistan will react very quickly.
33:01Whatever you do within 24 hours, 36 hours, like they did in the time of the Balakot strike, they will come back at you.
33:08Because in their mindset, it can be one strike each and that's it.
33:16Hmm.
33:17I think Dilil made an interesting point that if you keep going back, the only danger there is that you will also be going up the escalation ladder.
33:27Yes.
33:28You know, that and because they have a first use policy on the nuclear issue, I'm not sure how effective or sensible it will be to go up the escalation ladder too quickly.
33:44So, you have to hit them hard the first time.
33:48Okay.
33:49Wait for a reaction. And if required, hit them again. But beyond that, going up the escalation ladder would be dangerous.
33:55Okay. But you have to hit them again. That's very clear.
33:59But there's another aspect I want our viewers to understand because not many would really know what's happening deep inside Pakistan,
34:08how fragmented Pakistan is, the fissures and fault lines within Pakistan.
34:14And I want you to consider what I'm telling you.
34:17There are protests against the Pakistan army that are taking place even as we speak in Gilgit and in Baltistan,
34:23which is in Pakistan-occupied Jammu and Kashmir that Pakistan calls its northern areas.
34:28Locals in Gilgit and Baltistan have come out in large numbers against the atrocities.
34:35Watch these images and watch these images full screen.
34:38This is the population of Gilgit and Baltistan protesting against Pakistan army's exploitation of minerals and resources and of course of Gilgit and Baltistan since 1947.
35:07They've risen against the exploitation of the resources by the Pakistan army that's pocketing all the profits from the exploitation of minerals, of resources, of land.
35:16And do keep in mind, this is not the first time that there's been an unrest.
35:20Of course, this is one of the larger ones in Gilgit and Baltistan.
35:24And of course, when you come down to Muzaffarabad and Pakistan-occupied Jammu and Kashmir where people have been rising for jobs, better housing, electricity.
35:3322 hour long power cuts out of 24 hours.
35:36That is what people in Gilgit and Baltistan and Muzaffarabad are suffering apart from human rights violation.
35:41There are reports of changing of demographic profile of the region.
35:44We want you to know about what's happening there.
35:48I want you to see the map of Pakistan and when you look at that country, I first want to point out where is Gilgit and Baltistan in this map.
36:06So, Gilgit and Baltistan is where you see protests that are happening right now against the Pakistan army.
36:12Then, from Gilgit and Baltistan, I want you to now come down to Baluchistan.
36:17And Baluchistan is Pakistan army's Achilles heel.
36:21There have been multiple suicide bombings in Baluchistan.
36:24Do remember what has just happened in Baluchistan.
36:27And that made headlines across the world that a train that Jafar Express, that was taken hostage.
36:34Passengers on board were taken hostage.
36:3626 people, we are told, were killed.
36:3818 of them were Pakistan army officers and soldiers.
36:43Then suicide bombings, a spate of suicide bombings by Baluch women.
36:48And many of them are doctors and engineers and school teachers, educated women.
36:53They have risen against the Pakistan army occupation peacefully and not so peacefully.
37:00You have political leaders in Pakistan who are saying that at least six to eight districts here in Baluchistan are no longer in control of the Pakistan army at all.
37:10They could declare independence and Pakistan could do nothing about it.
37:13Let me now take you to Pakistan's second Achilles heel.
37:18And this is Khaybar and Pakhtunkhwa province or KPK.
37:23Or once known as the NWFP or the Northwest Frontier Province of Pakistan.
37:28This since the Afghan takeover or the Taliban takeover of Afghanistan.
37:34Let me give you some statistics so that that will help you understand the situation on ground.
37:392021, this is when Taliban took over.
37:42Within months, between August and December, more than 100 people.
37:46And these include security forces, armies, local police, state police, central armed police forces there,
37:52or paramilitary forces there, killed in clashes between TTP, Tehreek-e-Taliban Pakistan and Pakistan Army.
37:58Point one. Point two.
38:002022, 280.
38:01So they killed.
38:02This was 74% of all the casualties that were taking place in Pakistan.
38:06In 2023, this number rose to 315.
38:1063% of the 500 deaths.
38:12So every year, the number of people dying in Pakistan is increasing.
38:152024, 200 to 250.
38:18Because Pakistan is now no longer giving out images or details of the number of people killed.
38:23Commentators in Pakistan say the situation is only expected to worsen along this 2,600 kilometer long.
38:30And watch this entire Durant Line or the AFPAC border.
38:33Afghanistan-Pakistan border.
38:34Balochistan and Khaybar-Pakhtoonghua.
38:38It's only intensifying the situation there.
38:41Pakistan Army is bleeding and hard all along.
38:45Then, there is a fight that is happening between Sindh and Punjab.
38:50They are at loggerheads on the sharing of the Indus waters treaty.
38:54And there is a pet project of General Asim Munir, the chief of the army staff.
38:58He seeks to divert water of these rivers and take it to the Cholistan desert.
39:04There's a project.
39:05The Cholistan desert project.
39:07And this is part of General Asim Munir's plan to mint money.
39:12To sell coroner plots.
39:14That's the main job of the Pakistan army incidentally.
39:16It's not to fight wars.
39:17It's only spread terror and sell coroner plots.
39:20Of course, make cement and corn flicks is what they do in their part time.
39:23As part of Pakistan's 4G foundation.
39:25So, greening the Cholistan desert is part of Green Pakistan Initiative or GPI.
39:31It's an ambitious agricultural project.
39:33What does this project say?
39:35This is the Sindh province.
39:37That's the Punjab province.
39:38It's aimed at transforming a barren desert into fertile farmland.
39:42It's a pipe dream.
39:43It can never happen.
39:44But this is what they wanted to do.
39:46It's in southern Punjab.
39:48It's approximately 25,800 square kilometers of land.
39:54The project involves construction of six canals.
39:57Two canals in Punjab province of Pakistan.
39:59Two canals in the Sindh province.
40:01And of course, in Balochistan to irrigate 4.8 million acres of desert land.
40:06Five canals will draw water from the Indus rivers.
40:09The sixth from the Mehfuz Shaheed canal or rainwater harvesting or surplus monsoon water from Satluj river.
40:17As again part of the Indus waters treaty.
40:20So, can Pakistan actually do this?
40:22It aspires to do that.
40:23Sindh and Punjab were at war forcing the suspension of this project.
40:27It's being held in abeyance within Pakistan.
40:30Because Indus waters treaty anyway has been held in abeyance by the Narendra Modi government.
40:35So, Pakistan army's pet project is either dead or it is stillborn.
40:42Look at the situation in Khaybar Pakhtunkhwa.
41:04For example, 295 terror strikes took place in 2024.
41:09And watch, watch the number of people who are dying in Khaybar Pakhtunkhwa.
41:13295 terror strikes have taken place in 2024.
41:16If you were to talk about the major strikes.
41:19Remember, Banu contornment terror attack.
41:21Eight Pakistani soldiers were killed in Banu.
41:24Then, in February 2024, there was an attack on a police station in which 10 police officers were killed.
41:30The situation on ground is so bad that Pakistan army just doesn't know how to handle this.
41:36In Baluchistan, there have been 614 deaths.
41:40614.
41:41You include civilians, military personnel and this is just from 2024 to 2025.
41:48Major attacks, like I said, include the Jafar Express 26 killed in Sindh, Karachi.
41:53Election commission office was bombed in Punjab.
41:55There were targeted attacks against the Hindus and the Christians.
41:59And of course, Sikhs have also been targeted the manner in which they have been.
42:04I once again want to bring in Tilak Deveshwar on this special broadcast.
42:08Mr. Deveshwar, when you look at the situation and let's specifically talk about Indus waters treaty being held in abeyance
42:14and the impact on the Cholistan desert greening project.
42:18Is that a setback? Is that a blow to Aasem Munir?
42:21You see, even before the treaty was held in abeyance,
42:26it was a setback to Aasem Munir because the kind of protests that are taking place in Sindh.
42:32In fact, today or yesterday, there are about 7,000 trucks that have blocked the IRA.
42:39You know, because of this and they are not satisfied by just saying that the matter will be taken up in the Council of Common Interest.
42:48They want a total withdrawal of this Green Pakistan initiative, which was a joint project of the army and the Chief Minister of Punjab.
42:57So, because of those protests, the government has been forced to take a pause and to put that entire project on hold.
43:06Now, if you top this up with the holding of the Indus Water Treaty in abeyance by India, it further complicates the matter.
43:15You see, the importance of holding it in abeyance is that the water supplies are going to get disrupted.
43:22You know, instead of a regular flow in which India is passing on information on a regular basis about the flows,
43:29India is not going to provide any information anymore.
43:32And also, like the Jailam was flooded, then now there is no water in the Jailam.
43:37So, you know, these disruptions, when the crops require water, are something that is going to severely impact Pakistani agriculture.
43:46So, I think this is going to again then create more tensions between Sindh and Punjab.
43:52Yes.
43:53Now, Jailam, in a situation like this, can Pakistan actually afford to fight India?
44:00I fail to understand a country that's literally coming apart at the seams in Gilgit-Baltistan, in Baluchistan, in Khaybar-Pakhtoonghua,
44:08trouble between Sindh and Punjab.
44:10Is that the reason why he targeted Pehlgam, so that he could unite the country, all Muslims together against Hindus?
44:16Gaurav, in Pakistan, only two issues unite everyone together.
44:23One is religion, second is Kashmir.
44:26And the type of economic, you know, downturn which is happening in Pakistan,
44:31the military is in doldrums you just brought out.
44:34They are stretched from KPK, Afghanistan border, Iranian border, Bluchistan, Sindh, and also Gilgit-Baltistan.
44:42And this time, they will have very little forces to be deployed on their eastern borders, that is the border with India,
44:51because they are stretched all over.
44:53And second thing which I can tell is, this time, in the beginning of the program this point came up,
44:58that terrorism is not what the terrorists are doing.
45:02The main player who is spreading terror in India is Pakistan military.
45:06So this time, the targets which will be chosen will be the Pakistan military target, basically to destroy their warfighting capability.
45:14Because warfighting capabilities take decades to build.
45:17You destroy a warfighting machinery or warfighting equipment or warfighting storage or warfighting, you know, any equipment.
45:25That would take years to build, and that would put Pakistan behind in the matrix for a long, long time.
45:31Okay.
45:32So these things are very important.
45:33The initiatives taken by the government are not going to be only military options.
45:37Diplomatic, some options have only been taken.
45:39I always say, it is going to be military, diplomatic, political, economic, and some of the options we don't talk.
45:46So all this combined together is going to squeeze Pakistan this time.
45:51And Pakistan military is going to be the main target.
45:53Very interesting you should mention that.
45:56And it's not just Asim Munir.
45:58It's those nine core commanders and their entire military jihad complex.
46:02And I don't just mean terror complex.
46:04The Pakistan ordnance factories that manufacture the ammunition, the bombs, the missiles, the rocket launchers, the aircraft, all of that.
46:14But before I come to that, there's breaking news coming in.
46:16I'm coming to Air Marshal Chopra and Admiral Sinha.
46:19But before that, there's breaking news coming in.
46:21Pakistan is clearly very spooked.
46:23It's warmongering.
46:24And how?
46:25There's a big reaction that's coming in from Pakistan's foreign minister right now.
46:31Pakistan's foreign minister is threatening India with war.
46:36It's not just their defense minister, but Ishak Dar, their deputy prime minister and their foreign minister,
46:43has threatened India with a certain war if Indus waters are stopped.
46:49Ishak Dar says, we are not in a mood to retaliate.
46:53But we have to take our economy forward.
46:56If Indus waters are not released, then just hear him, hear the words exactly from him.
47:04If you have to take our water with water, then we will have a war.
47:17Because this is 240 million people's life line.
47:21They have agriculture.
47:23The water is obviously a need for water.
47:27So this is why there is no compromise.
47:30Hey, Marshall Chopra, your appreciation of what Ishak Dar is saying, that if you stop the Indus waters, there will be war.
47:40And as Tilak Devishwar was just telling us, India's already telling Pakistan.
47:45One day they stopped water.
47:47One day they flooded the Jhelam.
47:49Or it's just starting.
47:51You know, Gaurav, I think it is rhetoric, as have been some of the other speeches in the last few days, primarily aimed at their own public.
48:01And therefore, we will get more of these, but we don't have to get worried about this.
48:06You know, we must concentrate.
48:08I personally am of the opinion, like General Tiny, that, you know, this escalation ladder that we're all talking about can be highly managed, overrated.
48:18You know, as if anything we'll do, they will nuke us.
48:22Nothing like that is going to happen.
48:24You know, we have got more nuclear warheads.
48:26We have got now, you know, multiple warhead capabilities.
48:29So, I think we should not overplay this.
48:32Pakistani nuclear block has already been, you know, called out.
48:36Called out.
48:37So, therefore, I do believe that we are, we have to do a multi-domain operation.
48:42All the three services have to act in unison.
48:45The three chiefs have been put together in that meeting that we have seen.
48:50We have to, you know, run a barrage of firing on the LOC.
48:55We have to make them run dry.
48:57We have to hit the military targets.
49:00Certainly, the near ones.
49:02And we can manage the escalation.
49:05Surely, it's not going to be up.
49:07Nobody is going to go nuclear.
49:09I promise you, yeah.
49:10Okay.
49:11In a situation, you know, what you say is very heartening.
49:14Admiral Sinan, in a situation that India were to actually implement what we are saying.
49:21Because there are many who are saying, how long can you hold water?
49:23You can't hold it indefinitely.
49:25You will have to give release water.
49:27You don't have the storage capacity.
49:28You can't divert the Indus water from Ladakh down to Ganga Neher.
49:33It's just not feasible.
49:35So, this is an empty threat.
49:36Do you think it's an empty threat?
49:38If you were to combine India's actions, starting with Indus Water's treaty, which has never been blocked before or held in abeyance before, and the military actions that are being spoken of, if you were the Red Army Chief, if you were the Red Team Chief, would you be a concerned man tonight?
49:55Now, let me first get back to this Indus Water.
49:59You know, Prime Minister Modi made a statement in 2016 that this Indus Water Treaty is absolutely unfair and we need to do something.
50:09And since then, the government is not sitting idle.
50:12There are already tunnels, already, you know, the diversion methods have already been created.
50:19It's just a matter of saying yes, go ahead and implement.
50:22We heard that JLM was already sort of flooded the day before yesterday.
50:27So, this is just a test that this is what can happen and this is how your country will react, but they will actually not react.
50:36Because don't forget, Pakistan has much more to lose if they start a war.
50:40And as Marshall Chopra said, a lot of it they have to say in their own Senate, in their own Parliament, they have to say it for the benefit of the people.
50:49It's basically an agricultural intensive country.
50:52And if they don't make these statements, they will have a public uprising, you know, more than religion.
50:59I think the stomachs don't get filled, you know, there's going to be trouble.
51:04So, I would say that it is not an empty threat.
51:07The control of the river flow of endless river is very much in the hands.
51:13The methods have already been created.
51:15It is just a question of implementing it immediately.
51:18So, I won't go so much.
51:20Yeah.
51:21Okay.
51:22And Mr. Deveshar, when you look at Pakistan's internal situation,
51:26if it's trying to fight India at the line of control, which is 770 kilometers long or even along the international border in Punjab, Rajasthan, Gujarat,
51:37doesn't it fear what could happen, you know, in Gilgit, Baltistan or in Khaybar, Pakhtunkhwa or in Balochistan?
51:44Does Pakistan army have the wherewithal to fight on multiple fronts on two borders and internally?
51:49I don't think so.
51:51You see, as it is, there were reports that elements of 11 core and 12 core have been moved to the Indian border.
51:58So, this opens up space for the Baloch freedom fighters as well as for the TTP.
52:04And I don't think that Pakistan will be able to manage both tensions with India on the, especially if it goes into some sort of a military exchange and manage the Baloch freedom fighters as well as the TTP.
52:21So, I think the unintended consequences, which probably they didn't anticipate or calculate of Pahlgaam, is going to be that these two organizations, the Baloch as well as the Pashtuns, are going to have a pretty much a free run of the place.
52:37And now Pakistan is going to be able to manage that with an active border with India and a pretty active border with the Taliban too.
52:45So, they have painted themselves in some sort of a corner by this bravado action which they took in Pahlgaam.
52:54And now the fallout of that is going to hit them severely.
52:58Would it beâĻ
52:59And you combine thisâĻ
53:00Go on, sir. Please complete your point. Go on, sir.
53:02After you combine this with the water prices that is going to hit them in the face, I think it's going to be pretty tough.
53:08It's going to get very, very uncomfortable in Pakistan.
53:10It indeed is. In fact, there are some reports that already say that there are some in Pakistan, General Dhillon, who are already feeling the heat.
53:20Their army is stretched to the core.
53:23There was a report which seemed to indicate that to make moneyâĻ
53:26And, you know, Pakistan calls us baniyas, but Pakistan to make money sold off its own ammunition, its active stocks of ammunition to Ukraine.
53:38It did get dollars, but now it cannot replenish and cannot replenish so quickly.
53:42So, its own WWR or war wastes reserves are down by some reports, and you can tell me whether they are authentic or not, to less than a week.
53:52What is yourâĻ In case there is a full-blown war, your appreciation, General Dhillon.
53:56Gaurav, I made a reference to it in my previous interjection, that war-fighting stamina of India vis-a-vis the war-fighting stamina of Pakistan,
54:06especially in very high-end weapon systems, the aircraft ammunitions, the naval, you know, equipments and accessories.
54:15And, of course, within the army also the missiles and all, it is not easy to buy such weapon systems and equipment and ammunitions.
54:24And Pakistan hardly produces anything in-house.
54:27So, it has to depend on China and Turkey for everything.
54:30And this time the world is with India.
54:33Even during the war, even if someone wants to help it, other than these two countries,
54:38I don't think anyone would come forward to help a state like Pakistan,
54:42because the whole world is fed up of Islamic terror,
54:45and the whole world is fed up of this nuclear in the hands of a state,
54:49which practices terrorism as a statecraft.
54:53So, war-fighting stamina is in India's favour,
54:57and that is where we should hit Pakistan military targets,
55:01so that their stamina further goes down in the initial phase itself.
55:06Very, very interesting.
55:08And that is why we get the finest voices on matters, military and strategy,
55:13so that you form an opinion based absolutely on facts,
55:18and not Pakistani propaganda that some may seek to peddle.
55:22That is all I have for you on this special broadcast.
55:25Gentlemen, many thanks for joining me on India First.
55:28We will get you facts first, in national interest first.