Amid speculation over India's possible military operation in Pakistan in response to the Pahalgam terror attack, former ambassadors Vivek Katju and Abdul Basit participate in Rajdeep Sardesai's News Today to share their views on the carnage and New Delhi's military options.
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00:00Good evening, hello and welcome. You're with the news today. This is your primetime destination. News,
00:06newsmakers, talking points. The big talking point, India's crackdown on terror and its diplomatic
00:13offensive against Pakistan. Is it optics or is it substance? Will the Pakistan army ever give up
00:21on terror? Tonight, we'll have a special debate between two representatives from India and
00:27Pakistan. Top diplomats will join me on a special face-off. Also, Omar Abdullah, what do I tell a
00:35naval officer's widow? We'll tell you about a speech that's going viral. All that and more, but first,
00:42the nine headlines at nine. New videos of the Pehalga massacre emerge. Moment when terrorists
00:49began firing heard on camera. Video shows tourists running for cover.
00:57The forces had near misses and exchanges of fire with the Pehalgaam terrorists. Massive manhunt in
01:04South Kashmir jungles for the terrorists is underway.
01:10Jammu and Kashmir Chief Minister Omar Abdullah hits out, says won't use Pehalgaam attack for
01:17statehood push at this stage, admits to have lost face in not protecting tourists, refuses to politicize
01:24Pehalgaam massacre, as the Jammu and Kashmir assembly passes a unanimous resolution condemning the violence.
01:35Ki Modi Rajdaak meet over Pehalgaam terror attack at the Prime Minister's residence. Prime Minister Modi briefed on ongoing operations, overall preparations.
01:44Politics now over the terror attack. Congress leader Saifuddin Soh says, except Pakistan claim it had no role in terror, Congress distances itself from Soh's remark, issues gag order to its members.
02:02Kargay slams Piyush Goyal over his remarks that terrorism will end with only when 1.4 billion Indians prove their patriotism.
02:11Uprising against Park Army in Gilgit, Baltistan, locals take to the streets, denounce what they call
02:21brazen theft of their land, mountains and minerals by the Pakistan government and army.
02:3126.11 attacks accused Tahavur Rana sent to 12-day NIA custody.
02:37NIA said Rana's custody required to piece together the full scope of the conspiracy.
02:44Russia announces a temporary ceasefire in Ukraine to mark their World War II victory day.
02:49Ukraine dismisses Putin's move as window dressing.
02:55Padma Bhushan for actors Ajit and Balaprishna.
02:57India's top civilian owners for sports stars are Ashwin and Shreejesh.
03:02But first, the horrific terror attack in Pahlgaam has left 26 people dead, including tourists.
03:31Since then, the diplomatic standoff between India and Pakistan has been escalating all the time.
03:37Let's first take a look at the top developments that have taken place today.
03:41The Jammu and Kashmir Assembly has unanimously passed a resolution expressing shock over the Pahalgaam attack,
03:49vowing to defeat attempts to disrupt communal harmony and derail progress in the state.
03:56The resolution has called the attack as assault on Kashmiriyat and said the country must guard against sinister designs and ensure that the country stays united.
04:08Speaking in the JNK Assembly, Chief Minister Omar Abdullah turned emotional and said he had failed the tourists after inviting them to visit the state.
04:15He added that he would not use the terror attack to push for statehood at this stage.
04:20The Indian government has banned several Pakistani YouTube channels for airing provocative, commonly sensitive content, spreading false narratives.
04:29These include YouTube channels of media organizations like DAWN and Jio.
04:35Defence Minister Rajnath Singh briefed Prime Minister Narendra Modi in a high-level security meeting in Delhi on Monday.
04:41The Prime Minister was updated on the ongoing operations against terrorists in Kashmir.
04:46The Congress has issued a gag order on its leaders, this after Congress leaders Saifuddin Sos and Vijay Vattethiwar made controversial remarks on the suspension of the India's treaty and the terror attack.
04:58Party Chief Malik Arjun Karge and Rahul Gandhi have made it very clear that they alone will speak for the party.
05:03India today has accessed new video of the April 22nd Pahalgaam terror attack in which a tourist enjoying a zipline ride over the Bessaran Valley unknowingly captured the chaos as it unfolded in real time.
05:16Terrified tourists can be seen running for their lives but some were gunned down mid-run.
05:21India has tightened its noose on park-based terror.
05:29Terrorists behind the Pahalgaam attack have been reportedly located in different parts of South Kashmir but managed to escape.
05:37India now continuing, the Indian army continuing with their operations against terrorists.
05:42Following the deadly Pahalgaam attack, authorities in Jammu and Kashmir have intensified their anti-terror drive.
05:49They continue to demolish the homes of active terrorists in Bandipura, Pulwama and Shopya.
05:55After Pakistan called for an independent probe into India's allegations on the Pahalgaam attack, China has backed Islamabad's demand with Chinese Foreign Minister Wang Yi voicing support for Islamabad.
06:06Former Pakistan cricket captain Shahid Afridi has sparked fresh controversy while accusing India of blaming Pakistan to mask what he said were India's internal failures following the Pahalgaam terror attack.
06:24Now India is slowly but steadily raising the heat on Pakistan.
06:29The Narendra Bodhi's government's efforts at this stage seem to be largely to take steps to isolate Pakistan.
06:36Today the Modi government blocked several Pakistani YouTube channels including those of Pakistan's leading news channels like Jio, Sama and Dawn.
06:45India has already revoked visas granted to Pakistani citizens and the biggest step that has been taken is the suspension of the Indus Water Treaties, holding it in abeyance.
06:56The strength of the high commissions also were earlier brought down to 30 from 55.
07:00The MEA continues to brief foreign envoys on the Pahalgaam terror attack and its aftermath.
07:08The big questions of course, and I want to raise these right at the very outset tonight.
07:12Are the moves that the Modi government is making enough to really make Pakistan act on terror?
07:18Is India's crackdown at the moment more optics or is it substance on the ground?
07:23Is anything really changing on the ground?
07:25And the real crucial question, will the Pakistan army state ever give up on funding sponsored terror aim at India?
07:34And has Pakistan pushed itself into a corner with this latest terror attack?
07:39Could India exercise a military option or will it stick to diplomatic options?
07:44Those are questions I will raise with two special guests.
07:48Today, we are going to have on television, the first time since the attack took place, two clear voices from India and Pakistan experienced top diplomats.
07:57Vivek Karju, former Secretary Ministry of External Affairs, someone who's been an ambassador in Afghanistan, has written extensively on the region.
08:04And Abdul Basit, former High Commissioner of Pakistan to India, who's also tracked this region extensively.
08:10I appreciate both of you joining us on the show tonight.
08:14Abdul Basit, are you willing to accept at the very outset that Pakistan has much to answer for what happened in Baisaran?
08:23That this is not just an occasion where Pakistan can engage in familiar denial.
08:28This is now a time where Pakistan must accept at some stage its role in sponsoring terror.
08:34Thank you very much, Adi, for having me on your show.
08:40I think it is for India to come clean.
08:43If it has any evidence, credible evidence, then it should present to Pakistan.
08:50Or if it is not willing to present it to Pakistan, then it should accept some kind of an international investigation into the incident.
08:59I do not know why India is shying away from accepting this, which clearly means that India does not have anything to prove that Pakistan is behind this attack.
09:14That's why in Pakistan, the general viewpoint is that it is a false flag thing.
09:20It is an act which was done by the deep state in India.
09:25So, if India has anything, it should be presented to you.
09:30Mr. Basit, you are calling for evidence.
09:32Before I come to Mr. Karju, let me give you a sense of history.
09:36When Kargil happened, Pakistan denied the role of the North Light Infantry.
09:40You were not even willing to take the bodies of your own soldiers from the icy climes of Kargil.
09:45When Mumbai happened, 2611 happened in Mumbai, Pakistan's first claim was we have nothing to do with it.
09:50Till finally, because Kasab was caught and was linked with his place in Pakistan, you had no option in a way but to accept the role.
09:58You will recall the same thing has happened when Pulwama happened, when Pathan court happened.
10:03How long is Pakistan going to live, sir, under this veil of denial?
10:07I mean, surely a time must come when you must accept, as indeed did your defense minister only the other day in an interview to Sky News,
10:16accept that you have been allowing such elements to flourish in your country.
10:22Now, I think your facts are incomplete.
10:24As a matter of fact, on the Mumbai attack, if I may recall your audience, it was India which hurriedly executed ASAP on 21st November 2012,
10:38denying a good opportunity to the Pakistan Judicial Commission to interrogate him, cross-examine him.
10:45So, he was executed in a hurry.
10:49Similarly, on Uri or on Pulwama, India never shared any evidence.
10:57Even in the case of Pahlkamp, you just, you know, I do not know even Indian media, how you guys can accept this,
11:06that within minutes you start blaming Pakistan without a shred of evidence.
11:10It really surprises me at times that a country like India could stoop that low in order to, I mean, with an objective to keep hammering Pakistan.
11:20Sir, you are challenging my narrative.
11:22You will recall we even allowed the ISI to come after the Pathan court terror attack in 2016 and six months later we had Uri.
11:30The point is, sir, this is not one instance.
11:32You know, your denials or trying to attack India in this manner is not going to cut ice.
11:41Surely, there must be some attempt made to accept the reality.
11:45I am surprised.
11:46You know, during those incidents, both on 2nd January 2016, Pathan court incident and then Uri in September 2016, I was in India.
11:57When it comes to Pathan court, you will remember that we had registered, filed an FIR in Pakistan just on the basis of some incomplete information which was provided to us by the National Security Advisor or by the Indian government.
12:14But then our team came to India.
12:16I was in India at that point in time.
12:18And believe you me, our team was not allowed to even cross-examine the SP who claimed that his car was hijacked and his car was used to go or to enter into the Pathan court airbase.
12:34So, you know, and then Indian immediately after our spatial investigation team's visit, India started asking for a reciprocal visit.
12:44I, even then I said that in such matters, you do not invoke reciprocity for heaven's sake.
12:51The crime scene is in India.
12:53Sir, the crime scene is in India.
12:56The criminals are in Pakistan.
12:57Sir, I have heard you.
13:01Let Vivek Kanju respond.
13:02I want to give equal time.
13:04Let Vivek Kanju.
13:05Vivek Kanju, you are hearing from Abdul Basit, the familiar Pakistan line.
13:09Then where is, you know, where is the evidence?
13:11Show us the evidence.
13:13Allow a probe to take place.
13:15Is this a delaying tactic?
13:17Is this Pakistan now using deniability to buy time?
13:23Rajdeep, first of all, permit me to say that anyone who says that this terrible incident or terrible terrorist attack in Pahalgaam
13:34was a false flag operation has a sick mind.
13:42Anyone who repeats that has a sicker mind.
13:46I deeply regret that someone who's held such a senior position in the Pakistan Foreign Service,
13:56who almost made it to the Foreign Secretary's position, and who's extremely bitter that he did not.
14:04If you read his book, his bitterness comes through.
14:08And I think his bitterness on India has always been there.
14:12Should, as to use his words, stoop so low, as to say that this could be a false flag operation?
14:21I think he himself should introspect and apologize for these words.
14:29These are atrocious words.
14:31I've never heard a senior diplomat, a responsible diplomat say these words.
14:37No wonder his prime minister thought it fit to, after offering him the Foreign Secretorship, to deny him that.
14:47Now I understand why this was done, because of the words that he's used on this television today.
14:54I'm sorry if I'm being personal.
14:56But what he has said, no Indian can accept.
15:00Rajdeep, please ask him to apologize.
15:03We will proceed further only after he's apologized.
15:06I will come back to you without making it personal, Mr. Karju, but I want, Mr. Basit, do you want to at least accept to use a word like false flag?
15:16There are 26 innocent, sir, who have died.
15:21Please understand, they have died.
15:22These are non-combatants who have died, unlike in Pathan court.
15:27Here there are non-combatants, and you say it's a false flag operation, sir.
15:31Let's start, let's at least have a reasonable dialogue, sir.
15:35The reason I brought you two together to have a reasonable dialogue.
15:38But if you start this debate by saying it's a false flag operation, then where does, I mean, you are one of the senior most diplomats of your country, sir.
15:46Since Mr. Karju got personal, so that in itself betrays what kind of frustration India is having today.
15:55There's not frustration.
15:56When I, when I said, false flag operation, how can I accept that?
16:01Very, very kind of you.
16:03I would not really enter into a slanging match because that is not my style of doing things.
16:08I said what I strongly felt.
16:11Sir, sir, sir, I think it would be, it would be at least to accept, just a minute, Mr. Karju, I'll deal with this.
16:18I at least accept that making such comments at a sensitive time like this, Mr. Basit, are not going to help matters.
16:25Why not at least say, your point is taken that you want an inquiry.
16:28That's Pakistan's position.
16:30But then call it a false flag.
16:31What information, what is your proof of a false flag operation, sir?
16:35I would say that because immediately after the attack or the incident, the way you start blaming Pakistan, what else does it show?
16:46Sir, there was a group, the Revenutionary Force, the Lashkar outfit which went public and took responsibility.
16:52It's only after that there was an uproar over it that it tried to suddenly cover its tracks.
16:57Let's be very clear, sir, there are enough intelligent inputs, there are detailed inputs that are out there now, which reflect Pakistan-backed Lashkar being involved.
17:08Please share with us, share with the international community.
17:11If you have irrefutable evidence, share with us.
17:16Why are you avoiding to share that with us?
17:20It's imprehensible, Perni.
17:21Okay, let me bring in Mr. Karju.
17:23Mr. Karju, this point of sharing of information.
17:26We've seen it after 2008 Mumbai, we've seen it after Pathankot, after Uri, after Pulwama, go back in time to the train attacks 2006, go back to what happened in Parliament, constantly share information.
17:39What should India's response be to those in Pakistan who say share information, have a global neutral inquiry?
17:47I say, Rajdeep, this is not a serious observation.
17:53This is not a serious demand.
17:55For the last 35 years, the world has witnessed and acknowledged Pakistan's role in terror across the LOC, across the international border, and elsewhere in India.
18:15It is no secret, Pakistan has been on the FATF list.
18:22Why?
18:23Because of its role in terror financing, because of the tanzims that exist on its soil.
18:31And it is terribly ironic that these are some of the tanzims that Pakistan raised have now turned their guns against the Pakistan state.
18:41So, Pakistan claims that it is a victim of terror.
18:45It is a victim of terror.
18:47It is the perpetrator of terror.
18:49It is the fact that the Pakistani army has made the use of terror as part of its strategic doctrine.
19:00And whenever an army does so, it uses terror.
19:06It has to use terror.
19:07So, therefore, whenever my Pakistani friend says, show us the proof, I tell them, I don't need to show you the proof.
19:17It is there in 35 years of experience, not only of India, of the world.
19:24Will the international community, Mr. Kadju, also ask for proof?
19:28Do you believe that there are countries, China, today is backing Pakistan's tank?
19:33Pakistan is a vassal state of China.
19:36Naturally, the Chinese will support a vassal state.
19:39Let's not go there.
19:41I don't take the Chinese seriously.
19:43Everyone else has accepted, yes, the Pakistani groups are involved in terror.
19:49The Pakistani groups and supported by the Pakistani intelligence agencies use terror as an instrument of policy.
20:03I think this charade of giving us evidence, give us evidence, Pathan, in Mumbai, what does Mr. Basit have to say?
20:13Mr. Khosa, perhaps one of the most celebrated police officers in Pakistan, has written extensively about his investigations, about the involvement of the Lashkar-e-Toi-ba.
20:26I'm sure Mr. Basit has read those.
20:29If he hasn't, I would invite his attention to read them in the dawn where he published those articles about the Lashkar-e-Toi-ba.
20:38And he said, he said, just one second, Mr. Khosa had the honesty, and I must applaud his integrity, when faced with people like Mr. Basit, who have said, yes, we tracked down the engines, we tracked down where these people were trained, we tracked down where the boat was launched from.
21:01What does he have to say to that?
21:02What do you also, Mr. Basit, what do you also, Mr. Basit, have to say to Khwaja Asif, your defense minister, saying, Pakistan has harbored and funded terror organization, it was doing the West dirty work for decades.
21:17This is your own defense minister saying it, Mr. Basit?
21:19But that was in the context of a one war, in the way both the U.S. and perhaps to a certain extent, Pakistan, we were fighting at that stage, the erstwhile Soviet Union.
21:34So that has nothing to do with what is happening in India.
21:38Sir, but since then, with due regard, since then, post 2008, Zakir Rahman Lakmi was prosecuted, since then you had Kassab who was caught red-handed.
21:50Are you saying none of that existed?
21:53Rajdeep, you know, in India, I have heard too much about the Mumbai attack and why Pakistan is not concluding the trial which is taking place in Pakistan.
22:05You know, the fact of the matter is, and I do not know if Ambassador Kaju knows about it, it is India which has been delaying cooperation with us.
22:15I remember that our then Foreign Secretary wrote to his Indian counterpart in September 2015 about some information which was to be provided by India.
22:26It took exactly one year for the Indian Foreign Secretary, then Mr. J. Shankar, to write back to Pakistan in September 2016.
22:36So you can imagine the sincerity and seriousness of purpose on the part of India.
22:41In my own view, India would never like this trial to be concluded because it got a very good talking point to keep hammering Pakistan with.
22:51So, rest assured that Pakistan is getting...
23:21It's not red-handed.
23:21And you're going to come on this program and say, Pakistan must... India must provide evidence, sir.
23:28Absolutely.
23:29How can you really complete a trial without hard evidence, irrefutable evidence?
23:38After all, if Pakistan were to complete this trial, we need active Indian cooperation, which is not available to us, unfortunately.
23:47I mean, you can say anything, but I know the factual position.
23:52I have been dealing with all these matters.
23:54So, I'm not a person who would, you know, just say things for the sake of it.
23:59Okay.
23:59I am telling you the inside facts.
24:04Okay.
24:04You're telling me Pakistan's position.
24:06I want to turn for a moment and then get you, Ambassador Karju, to respond.
24:10Asim Munir.
24:11Many believe what happened in Baisaran is a direct link to what Asim Munir, the Pakistani army chief, said a couple of weeks ago.
24:19Listen in to what he said and I want Ambassador Karju you to bring us the chronology which you have written in a recent article.
24:25First, listen to Asim Munir.
24:26Well, our four fathers thought that we are different from the Hindus in every possible aspect of life.
24:42Our religion is different.
24:44Our customs are different.
24:45Our traditions are different.
24:47Our thoughts are different.
24:48Our ambitions are different.
24:50That was the foundation of the two-nation theory that was laid there.
24:54That we are two nations.
24:55We are not one nation.
24:57So, because of that, our four fathers, they struck Pakistan's story of their children, which you have to mean, so that they don't forget the story of Pakistan's story.
25:06Well, our four fathers, they thought that we are different from the Hindus in every possible aspect of life.
25:14Vivek Karju, what do you make out given what General Munir said, then the attack in Baisaran, give us what you believe is the chronology of events and then I'll get Ambassador Basit to respond.
25:24Look, for completely fictitious reasons, I think the Pakistani army.
25:34The Pakistani army believed that India was somehow involved in the Jafar Express attack.
25:40After that, I think General Asim Munir came out on 16th April with these comments when he was addressing the overseas Pakistan.
25:58Now, in my memory, and Ambassador Basit can correct me.
26:07In my memory, while Mr. Jinad used such expressions as Asim Munir expressed about Hindus and Muslims to whip up a passion for Pakistan,
26:28especially in areas, especially in areas where there was no such passion for Pakistan.
26:34After 1947, I do not recollect any Pakistani leader of note or any army chief,
26:47even while maintaining the foundational principle of Pakistan, which is the two-nation theory,
26:56ever referring in such a communal manner to Hindus and Muslims.
27:04Second, Mr. Jinad himself, on the 11th of August 1947, gave a speech in which he tried to distance himself from all the remarks that he had made earlier about Hindus and Muslims.
27:25It's a speech which the Pakistani authorities for many a long year tried to, you know, put in cold storage
27:37because it was a speech where he tried to project that Pakistan would be a kind of a state where everyone would be allowed to practice his religion.
27:49And he said, importantly, your religion has nothing to do with the business of state,
27:56which was totally contrary to the two-nation theory and to the formation and foundation of Pakistan.
28:03That is the 11th August speech of Mr. Jinad.
28:06But now, for the first time, Asim Munir is playing a game that is not only dangerous,
28:18it not only is divisive, it is offensive and provocative for India.
28:25But I would venture to suggest to Mr. Bassett to think very deeply the full connotations of what they are trying,
28:38the seeds that they are trying to sow.
28:42The stability, my one last point, the stability of India is, of course, will always be there.
28:50India is a secular state.
28:52It does not discriminate between citizen and citizen on the basis of religion.
28:58The chief justice of India recently, in a case, Rajdeep, if you recollect,
29:05when it was pointed out to him that if such things happen, then he won't be able to hear this case
29:11because he happens to be a Hindu, told a senior advocate of the government,
29:18a senior counsel of the government, that when we sit on this chair, we have no religion.
29:26That is what India is.
29:28That is the constitution of India.
29:30And here, the army chief of Pakistan is talking of Hindus and Muslims in this day and age, the digital age.
29:38What is he trying to prove?
29:40And last point, when it has never been done before, in my memory, no army chief,
29:46even while reiterating his commitment to the two-nation theory, has ever gone down this Indo-Muslim road.
29:56Let me take that, let me, just a minute, let me take that precise point you made now to Abdul Basit.
30:03Abdul Basit, the fact is, from Zulfikar Ali Bhutto, saying thousand cuts, you know, to bleed India,
30:12to now what Asim Munir says, there's a clear path that Pakistan wants to destabilize India
30:18and divide India, in your perception of a two-nation theory, Kashmir becomes, to quote General Munir,
30:25a jugular vein.
30:26Now, is this the language to be used in the 21st century and then to expect India again to believe
30:32that Pakistan is fully innocent, when two weeks after that, people are killed for their religious identity?
30:37First of all, Ali Bhutto, I am really surprised that, despite the fact that India, today's India,
30:45is now closely wedded to the idea of Hindutva, and you are still calling India a secular state.
30:54What is happening to Indian Muslims?
30:55We have just seen in the work for Amendment Act, the new law against, which is absolutely discriminatory,
31:04against the very constitution, articles, I think 14, 25, 26 of the Indian constitution.
31:11Yes, sir, but our parliament is freely, our parliament is, just to answer, sir, our parliament is freely debating the issue,
31:19the issue has gone to the Supreme Court, the Supreme Court is hearing it.
31:22And please understand, Indian Muslims have come out on the street with black bands to protest what happened in Baisaran.
31:31So, you see, this seems to be the attempt.
31:33No one here in this program is going to say that there may not be flaws in our country.
31:38But the fact is, in India, there are checks and balances.
31:40Your country, unfortunately, sir, the army seems to have a country.
31:44Most countries have an army.
31:46Pakistan's army has a country.
31:49How do you justify Amir Muni's remarks?
31:51Tell me that.
31:52How do you justify Amir Muni's remarks that Hindus and Muslims cannot coexist?
31:56It has become a now kind of hackneyed formulation, which is used again and again.
32:02But Soviet, you know, as far as two-nation theory is concerned, our army ship did not say anything new.
32:08And if you go a little back, you know, into the history, it was Mr. Sawarkar who came up with this idea of Hindutua
32:15and separating Hindus from other religions, from Hindu, from Muslims and from Christians.
32:22So, actually, the two-nation theory started with Mr. Sawarkar.
32:26If you are to blame anyone, you should be blaming Mr. Sawarkar for that.
32:31And that obviously gave Pakistan...
32:32Sir, is that your justification for General Munir?
32:35I am asking you to explain General Munir's statements.
32:38Please explain to me as a rational mind what General Munir is trying to say.
32:43The army ship did not say anything new.
32:48As Ambassador Kaju very rightly pointed out, that was the whole rationale for making Pakistan,
32:55very fundamental foundation of Pakistan.
32:58Yes, we thought that you were a different nation.
33:01Hence, we wanted a separate homeland and we got it.
33:04So, what did he say which was different from the very fact that Pakistan was based
33:12or it was created on the basis of the two-nation theory?
33:18But, sir, with due regard, and I want to move this on, therefore,
33:25to what I said just now for a moment, that the army has a country.
33:29Do you concede that your army, you today are attacking Indian secularism?
33:33That is your choice.
33:35And you are attacking, you claim that India has become a Hindutva country.
33:38I want to ask you a simple question.
33:40Do you accept the proposition that most countries have an army,
33:44Pakistan's army has a country?
33:46Your most popular leader, Imran Khan, today is in jail.
33:49The army decides how elections are held.
33:52How can you then deny the Pakistan army state's involvement
33:56in deciding the future of your country?
33:59No, I would not deny that we do not have issues in Pakistan.
34:06Definitely, we do.
34:07Like any other country in the world, we have our own peculiar issues.
34:11You would have your own.
34:12So, that doesn't mean that nothing really is working in Pakistan.
34:16We do have a government.
34:17We do have systems working.
34:19So, I would take your point to a certain extent.
34:23But we are going through difficult phases.
34:26And I am sure in the years to come, we will improve and we will have a better system of government in place.
34:34Let me bring that to you, Vivek Karju.
34:38The difference between India and Pakistan,
34:40we have had the army in the barracks all these years, for 75 years.
34:44We have had elections peacefully taking place, transition.
34:47Yes, we have our own flaws in our society.
34:50According to Mr. Basit, we have become a Hindutva country and you are free to respond to that, Mr. Karju.
34:56But do you see Pakistan's army playing the real pernicious role here?
35:01Look, look, the Pakistan army has always been its most important institutions.
35:13It has made and unmade political leaders.
35:20Each political leader, whether it was Benazir, starting from Zulfikar Ali Bhutto,
35:28who was Ayub's protÊgÊ, to Benazir, to Nawaz Sharif, to everyone there, to Imran Khan.
35:42They have all been protÊgÊs of the army who have crossed the army's path at some stage
35:48and have had to pay a price.
35:49So the Pakistan army is actually the controller of the destinies of Pakistan.
35:56Point one, point two, Raj, is that in no condition
36:03does the Pakistan army allow anyone else
36:08to intervene in the security policies of Pakistan
36:14or important foreign policy issues of Pakistan
36:20and certainly not its India policy.
36:23And Mr. Basit, if he is honest, he will agree with this.
36:29In fact, some of his colleagues...
36:31But how should India respond when you hear Pakistani guests coming on the programme, sir,
36:36and saying the rise of Hindutva politics is pushing Indian Muslims into a corner.
36:41They are using this, it seems, to create the impression of a sharp Hindu-Muslim divide on the ground.
36:47To that extent, do we also need to introspect?
36:50I think every country at all times must introspect.
36:57Two points here.
36:59The first, as far as, for example, the Waqf bill is concerned,
37:06you rightly observed, it is before the Supreme Court.
37:10The Supreme Court has seemingly taken objection to some of its provisions
37:18and those, even though Parliament has passed that bill,
37:23and it is an act now,
37:25the government has suspended those parts of the act.
37:31Now, as far as Hindutva is concerned,
37:34of course, there are people in India who are not happy with many of the policies of the present government.
37:41But the government has, is popularly elected.
37:46It has a mandate.
37:47Mr. Modi is, was elected as prime minister for the third time.
37:53And he was not elected at the behest of the army.
37:59The army plays no roles in elections in India, unlike Pakistan.
38:05The people of India decide.
38:07And if the people of India decide on something and decide on a leader,
38:12well, he has the popular mandate as long as they want.
38:15And he is obliged, last point, he is obliged to act under the constitution.
38:21If he flouts the constitution, India's constitutional authorities and the Supreme Court in particular
38:28has time and again stood up and told, starting from Indira Gandhi to other prime ministers,
38:38that this will not stand scrutiny, your decisions, even Acts of Parliament have to go.
38:44Because they are against the basic structure of the constitution.
38:47Mr. Karju, I take your point.
38:49Can I then come back to the present?
38:51What's happened since by Saran,
38:53which is India tightening the screws on Pakistan,
38:58putting the Indus Water Treaty, for example, in abeyance.
39:02Now, how has Pakistan responded?
39:03Listen in to what Bilawal Bhutto said and I'll get my two guests to respond.
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40:54neither Pakistan nor India can unilaterally terminate it, nor can any party amend it.
41:03It is as simple as that. But if you are trying, playing with our existence, with our survival,
41:10then what other option is left for Pakistan? You tell me, please.
41:15If, sir, if Pakistan continues to sponsor terror and believes that there are low costs for sponsoring terror,
41:26India has to increase the cost. How else is India going to respond?
41:30Are you saying India just throws up its hand and allows you to come into our country and export terror?
41:36For heaven's sake, this terrorism, terrorism, you know, I mean, we are now tired of this narrative, frankly speaking,
41:45and so is the world as a whole, because India keeps on harping on these lame false allegations,
41:54but provides nothing to substantiate, to substantiate their allegations.
42:00This is what, you know, is bothering Pakistan, the people of Pakistan, and the world at large.
42:06So, I am not talking about, let, you know, focus onâĻ
42:09Sir, the world at large, sir, whether it is the Financial Action Task Force,
42:14has over the years proscribed Pakistan, not India. Let's be clear.
42:18When you say the world at large is tiring, the world at large is tiring of PAC-sponsored terror.
42:24The world at large is tiring of Pakistan's refusal to accept that it has sponsored terror against India.
42:31The world is tired, the world is tired of the trite narrative which Indra is trying to build.
42:37This is what I am trying to say.
42:39Okay. Let me bring in Vivek Karju on that.
42:41Mr. Karju, you are hearing what Mr. Basit is saying.
42:44Is the Indus Water Treaty abeyance actually going to make a difference on the ground,
42:49given that it will take years to build the necessary drams and infrastructure, if at all we have to stop water,
42:54is that really simply optics, as I said at the start, or is it really substance?
43:00I think, Rajdi, permit me half a minute on this because I think it's important for your viewers to understand.
43:08The Indus Water Treaty is very generous to Pakistan.
43:12The substantial part of the water of the Indus river system goes to Pakistan.
43:20Why is this so?
43:22In the 1950s, if you see the literature, Pakistan's constant refrain, and in fact that refrain was filled with fear,
43:34was that unless it has Kashmir, it has India has may at some stage stop the water,
43:44then Pakistan will then get parched and Pakistan's existence will be threatened.
43:51It is to give Pakistan some confidence.
43:55So, in the hope that it will turn a new leaf, it will stop its negativity and hostility towards India,
44:03that India agreed to give waters of the three western rivers to Pakistan.
44:10Now, under the treaty, and I have looked at the treaty as Mr. Basit has, I have dealt with it myself.
44:17Under the treaty, a certain part of waters of the western rivers are allowed to India for purposes of agriculture.
44:29Also, India is allowed to use run of the river to produce electricity.
44:36Rajdeep, over 200 projects on these rivers over the years were stopped by Pakistan.
44:50They were objected to and they could not proceed.
44:55Finally, the Manmohan Singh government decided that it will invoke the dispute resolution mechanism of the treaty.
45:09And in some cases, the dispute resolution mechanism gave an award in India's trade.
45:16At that stage, the Pakistanis started saying that the dispute resolution, I don't want to go into technicalities,
45:26but there are different routes in the dispute resolution mechanism.
45:29No, but can we, sir, sir, to look at the present, can we unilaterally revoke the treaty or suspend it
45:35and expect that to have any kind of effect on Pakistan's army state terror system?
45:41Look, the fact is that this is, first of all, a very, very significant signal which has been sent to Pakistan
45:54and more than Pakistan to the international community, that India's patience is now endless.
46:03That if the treaty has to be brought into play, it will, in any case, India has asked for a revision of the treaty because of changes.
46:14And now India has said that all treaties, all agreements are dependent on security.
46:24There is a certain premise in international law which is not expressed, but there is a premise of good behaviour.
46:32A country cannot say that I will have every advantage of a treaty, but I will undermine you in every other way.
46:43If that is so, then I believe that under international law, a country has a right to defend itself.
46:53The right to defend, self-defence is an inherent right.
47:00And if a treaty comes in that way, especially in light of the behaviour, then a plausible case can be made out.
47:11In any case, there is no international judicial forum to which Pakistan can take us as far as this treaty is concerned.
47:19The ICJ, the International Court of Justice has no jurisdiction over India Park matters, especially on a treaty like this.
47:26And Mr. Basit knows that.
47:28Let me give both of you 30 seconds each or a minute each in the end to tell us what the future holds.
47:34Mr. Basit, you know, there are already those who are telling me why am I giving a Pakistani space on TV?
47:41And I will tell you why, sir, and to my viewers.
47:44I believe that it is important to hear what senior diplomats and indeed officials on the other side of the border believe.
47:51And I believe that is what journalism is really about.
47:54I am a journalist here. I'm not a soldier of the army.
47:58I am a patriot who believes at the end of the day that I stand for my country,
48:03but I'm also a journalist who believes that I must hear both sides of a story.
48:07So I'm giving you a minute, Mr. Basit, and then I'll give you that, Mr. Karju.
48:11First you, Mr. Basit, what does the future hold?
48:14Are you willing at even at this stage now to accept that Baisaran was crossing a red line?
48:20I wish you have given me the equal time, Ajdi.
48:24But in any case, what I would say is that can India deny its hand in terrorism?
48:32Many activities of terrorism in Pakistan, we had arrested Commander Khul Bhushan Jadev,
48:39and we have strong evidence of India's involvement in different terror activities in Pakistan.
48:47So if terrorism is an issue, Pakistan too has concerns.
48:53We too have our problems vis-Ã -vis India.
48:56As far as the present situation is concerned, we are not in panic, unlike our Indian friends.
49:06We are fool-headed people.
49:10And when push comes to shove, if India carries out, undertakes any misadventure against Pakistan,
49:17Pakistan is fully prepared to respond to that.
49:20And I hope that sanity prevails at the end of the day.
49:24If India has any evidence against Pakistan, India can always share with us.
49:30If it is not willing to share with us, the two countries can go for an international investigation.
49:39And if India is not even willing to do that, then it is India's decision.
49:43And in my view, by suspending the Indus Waters Treaty, I fully agree with Mr. Raju that India is allowed
49:55to use some water of the western rivers for irrigation purposes, for run-of-the-river projects and so on and so forth.
50:03But if India goes beyond that and tries to stop the flow of water into Pakistan,
50:10then I am afraid India is playing with fire.
50:13Okay, we have heard the Pakistan view.
50:15Mr. Raju, a final word to you.
50:17You have heard what Mr. Basit said.
50:19In many ways, he represents the Pakistan establishment.
50:21How, therefore, do you see the future panning out?
50:25Let me begin by saying that the thing that I noticed was that when the army public school was attacked
50:32and there were a large number of children who died, there were candlelight vigils in India.
50:38School children mourned their deaths.
50:42I have not noticed one word of condolence from Mr. Basit for the deaths in Baisajan throughout this program.
50:55This is not, I regret to use the word, civilized behavior.
51:01Point one.
51:02Not word, leave alone condemnation, not even a word of regret, not even a word of sympathy for those who died,
51:11who were killed on account of their religion.
51:14Second, as I told you, when it comes to state interest, states take interest, states act to protect their interests.
51:27And if hostility is continuously and perpetually decade after decade after decade shown by a neighboring state,
51:40then treaties can be looked at and can be held in obedience.
51:46Third, the prime minister, in the last two cases, when there were unacceptable attacks, India took kinetic action.
51:59This was an unacceptable attack.
52:04And what did we see?
52:06A long statement from Pakistan in response to a short, crisp statement from India,
52:14in which the concluding paragraph again was a reiteration of the two nation theory was totally out of place, totally unnecessary.
52:27So what was that reminding India?
52:30That look, we are different.
52:33We do not believe that Hindus and Muslims can live together.
52:38That is the basis of the two nation theory.
52:41And that was not only a signal.
52:44And Mr. Bassett should note the dangers of what he is doing.
52:50I'm saying this with full responsibility.
52:55That was not only a signal to Indian Hindus, it was equally a signal to Indian Muslims.
53:02He should be conscious of the dangers of such trying to show communal discord and disharmony in India.
53:12Because India's stability is not only important for India, it is important for the region as a whole.
53:19Not that India will ever get unstable.
53:22We are the fifth largest economy.
53:24We are on the way to being the third largest economy.
53:27And where is Pakistan today?
53:29Mr. Bassett knows.
53:32He can say, yeah, these temporary problems.
53:35There are screaming headlines in the Pakistani papers.
53:39Pakistan has succeeded in getting a loan from the IMF.
53:45It has gone to the IMF 24 times.
53:50And that is its greatest achievement, getting a loan.
53:54I rest my case.
53:57Right.
53:58Mr. Kaju, you rest your case.
54:00Mr. Bassett, we've heard you, sir.
54:02I want to reiterate.
54:03I've got feedback, including from General Tiny Dhillon.
54:07Why would you have Pakistanis come on the show and target India?
54:11I'm very clear, sir.
54:12And to you, General Dhillon also, I'm not a soldier in fatigues.
54:15I'm a journalist.
54:16And my journalism has taught me I will listen to the other side.
54:20And I've listened to you, Abdul Bassett, and I was hoping today that you would do what Vivek Kaju said.
54:26At least express empathy and sympathy for the victims of the horrific terror attack in Baisaran.
54:34I thought that was the very least, sir, you would do.
54:37I've been sadly let down.
54:39I've been someone, I want to tell you, Mr. Bassett, who for years has spoken about the need for Aman Ki Aasha with Pakistan or people-to-people contact.
54:48I've been let down.
54:50I feel let down today and angry as a result.
54:53I was hoping that this face-off that we had would lead to some kind of a dialogue that would actually bridge the divide.
55:01Sadly, all we've heard is the Pakistan position even getting hardened.
55:06But I still respect you, Mr. Bassett.
55:09We are in a democratic country in India where we know that we can still listen to the other side and still hold our own.
55:16I thank you, therefore, for joining us.
55:18I hope that good censor will prevail with the Pakistani establishment.
55:22And I think, Vivek Karju, you've more than held your own and given us strongly the Indian position.
55:27We, too, in India must introspect, but at the same time, we, too, in India will unify, speak in one united voice when it comes to terror.
55:37When it comes to terror, we will not be broken by those who try to divide us between Hindus and Muslims, between Kashmiris and others.
55:45This is a united nation and, in a sense, Baisaran has united us even further.
55:50Even further.
55:51Thanks for watching.
55:52Stay well.
55:53Stay safe.
55:54Good night.
55:55Shubratri.
55:56Jai Hind.
55:57Namaskar.
55:58Namaskar.
55:59Jai Hind.
56:00Jai Hind.
56:01Jai Hind.
56:02Jai Hind.