As India looks at imminent options to crack down on the threat of cross-border terrorism following the Pahalgam terror attack on April 22, India Today TV spoke to a few defence experts on what options India can avail to tackle the issue.
Category
🗞
NewsTranscript
00:00Hello and welcome to a special edition of India First. I'm Gaurav Savant. This is your destination
00:14for all the news that keeps you and India's national interest supreme. I'm Gaurav Savant.
00:23Action packed 60 minutes on this special broadcast and there is breaking news coming in. We urge
00:29viewer discretion. Some of the images I'm about to show you could be disturbing. This is a shattering
00:35video of the 22nd of April Pehelgam attack and this is a tourist from Ahmedabad, Gujarat, Rishi Bhatt.
00:42He was on a zipline at that Besaran valley when terrorists opened fire. He's oblivious but look
00:50at those images behind him. There are people who are running. They're frantically running to save
00:54their lives. This man does not know it just as yet. You hear the fire. Hear the fire. He
01:01still can't. But what you see behind you, hundreds of people enjoying themselves in the most beautiful
01:10meadows. This area has often been described as mini Switzerland. There are small gazebos here.
01:18There are small eateries all around but that's where people start firing. Those terrorists
01:24start firing and people are running helter skelter. Watch that man as he's shot at and falls
01:30to the ground. Listen to the ground listening.
01:57...
01:59...
02:07...
02:09...
02:11...
02:27Rishi Bhatt, in just a moment from now, Rishi Bhatt will join us on this special broadcast.
02:49With God's grace, he's safe. He's landed back safely in Gujarat.
02:53He'll be joining me on this special broadcast. Do keep one thing in mind.
02:56Prime Minister Narendra Modi's message after the massacre of Hindus in Pahlgam was very clear.
03:02Terrorists will pay, but not just these terrorists who opened fire, but even the packers will be made to pay.
03:10Pakistan is in panic. Pakistan is quickly mobilizing its tanks and its armored personal carriers and its rocket launchers all along the India-Pakistan international border.
03:21So, there's mobilization across the border of Punjab and Rajasthan. Pakistan Air Force jets are being moved closer to bases at the borders.
03:31But Pakistan knows in conventional warfare, India is far superior.
03:35And that's the reason that Pakistan's ministers, like the Railways Minister Hanif Abasi,
03:41they're resorting to nuclear saber-rattling.
03:44And that's the big story we pick up today.
03:46Is Pakistan's nuclear saber-rattling a bogey?
03:49Is India on top of that escalation matrix?
03:52Can India punish Pakistan's military jihad complex without that conflict escalating to a nuclear threshold,
03:58given how low Pakistan's nuclear threshold is?
04:02And how complex is the maneuvering to defang Pakistan's nuclear war threat?
04:07We wargame it with domain experts.
04:10We get you all details.
04:11Also, coming up on India Today, on India First at 8.30pm tonight,
04:16Israel's ambassador to India, Reuven Azar, joins me on this special broadcast on how
04:20Pehelgam terror attack was actually inspired by the October 7th Hamas terror attack on Israel
04:27and the need for democracies to come together to fight radical Islamist terror.
04:32Ambassador, welcome. We come to, we go to the ambassador at 8.30pm.
04:37I'm Gaurav Sawant. As always, let's get started with the headlines at 8 on India First.
04:46Hunt on for the Pehelgam attackers.
04:49Pakistan-backed terrorists reportedly still hold up.
04:52We are barely 20 kilometres away from this place, which is known as Mini-Switzerland.
05:04Congress leader Vijay Vadattivar asks,
05:08how is it possible for terrorists to ask the fate of victims before opening fire?
05:13Another party, veteran Saifuddin Sos,
05:16says Pakistan needs the water from Indus Waters Treaty.
05:19Congress, of course, distances itself from these controversial remarks.
05:29Jammu Kashmir Chief Minister Omar Abdullah grieves the deaths of Pehelgam victims,
05:33says we'll not talk of statehood at this juncture,
05:37declares the attacks are a loss of face for him and for Jammu and Kashmir.
05:42India and France signed the Game Changer.
06:0663,000 crore Rafal Marine fighter deal for the Indian Navy.
06:11The Rafal Marines are said to be on board INS Vikrant and Vikramaditya.
06:17One of the key plotters of 2611 Mumbai terror attacks,
06:27Pakistan Army's Captain Tahavar Hussain Rana remanded to 12 days NIA custody.
06:32The NIA says Rana's custody required to piece together the full scope
06:37of the Pakistan state-packed conspiracy.
06:55Some of the images we are about to show you will shock you.
06:59They're horrifying.
06:59We urge fewer discretion.
07:01They're disturbing images and they're actually chilling.
07:04People who'd gone to Jammu and Kashmir to enjoy a summer in paradise.
07:11Kashmir is seen as Jannat or a piece of paradise.
07:15And that paradise turned into hell for 26 Indian pilgrims and tourists.
07:22Many of these tourists were in Jammu and Kashmir.
07:25Some had gone for the Vaishnodevi pilgrimage and then decided to go to Kashmir
07:31to enjoy the valley, the Dul Lake in Srinagar.
07:35These beautiful meadows in Pehelgam.
07:38Watch this tourist from Ahmedabad.
07:40Rishi Bhatt, he was on the zip line in that valley because this valley is beautiful.
07:45And this is where terrorists came from different directions and opened fire.
07:51We will hear firsthand what happened that time.
07:54Because look at that smile on his face now and that horror.
07:58And watch what's happening in the backdrop.
08:00There are people who are desperately scrambling.
08:03They're running away and suddenly somebody opens fire.
08:06Most people haven't realized.
08:07But those who've realized, they're running to pick up their loved ones.
08:10There are others who fall into the ground.
08:12And others who are still running for the cover of those tall, those magnificent deodar trees.
08:20Hoping that those trees would shield them and protect them.
08:24Little did they know that there were terrorists who were waiting even there.
08:29Take a look at what happened.
08:33So the man behind, he says Allahu Akbar not once but thrice.
08:40And then Rishi is on his way, on the 22nd of Faithful.
08:45You hear the gunshots, you hear people frantically, desperately running away.
09:13And that couple, perhaps, and there he falls.
09:17Has he been shot at?
09:19Has he been shot dead?
09:21Because that was the man who was running for cover.
09:24There are people who are running to save their children.
09:26And yet, you hear the agony, the pain, the horror.
09:33And you see bodies lying there.
09:35Little children standing right next to the bodies of their father.
09:40Killed by these radical Islamist terrorists.
09:43And Rishi Bhatt, the man you see on that zip line, the tourist from Endabad in Gujarat, joins me on this special broadcast.
10:03Rishi, you're lucky to be alive.
10:05Rishi, when you recollect what happened, what can you tell us, Rishi, what happened that day?
10:11Rishi, you're lucky to be alive.
10:41Rishi, you're lucky to be alive.
10:43first firing and after 20 seconds, I realized that the firing is down and people are dying.
10:51Then, as I reached down, I saw that my wife in front of me had two people asking religion
10:57to kill me.
10:58You were already reached.
11:01You saw that the people asked their religion, asked their religion and killed me.
11:07Then, what did you do?
11:09Yes, are you Hindu or Muslim?
11:13Who are you?
11:15The people asked their religion to kill me.
11:18Then, there was a little distance.
11:20I got a zip line from there.
11:22Then, my wife and my children started running there.
11:26Then, we started running there.
11:29Then, there was a spot that was a blind spot,
11:32because it was open ground.
11:34We could be locked somewhere.
11:37Then, we saw that we were locked there.
11:39We were locked there.
11:40Then, we saw that there were already 3-4 people were locked there.
11:44Then, we were locked there.
11:46Around 8 to 10 minutes, there was a little bit of firing.
11:49Then, we started running there.
11:51Okay.
11:52When you started running,
11:54then, you thought you were thinking about how many arrows came from the direction?
11:57Where did you go?
11:59How many arrows came from the direction?
12:01How many arrows came from the direction?
12:02If you remember that time,
12:05then, what is your mind?
12:07What is your mind?
12:09Can you tell us?
12:10I will tell you that.
12:11First of the thing,
12:12there were two people in the ground.
12:14They were all telling them.
12:15They were hitting those around religion.
12:16The other people who were firing over the front.
12:20The other people were firing in my heart.
12:22The total of me was 4 to 5 percent.
12:25They were hitting their way so they were shooting their way.
12:26So, they were hitting the ground.
12:27Two people were behind the ground, they saw all the people, and two people were telling them all about religion.
12:34But the people were firing inside the ground, we didn't have any idea.
12:40Okay, so some people were behind the ground, some two people were in the middle,
12:46those people were there, the local people, the local people,
12:50that they had the help of them, or the ones who were behind the ground,
12:58the people that were behind the ground were there,
13:02or if they were there?
13:04The one who was doing the zip line was exactly our first,
13:09at the beginning of my zip line was nine people.
13:14I was also in my family, my wife and my child.
13:20At that time, she never said that Allah is God.
13:23She didn't say anything like that.
13:24She normally did it.
13:26When I was ready and set,
13:28I was arranged everything in my selfie stick,
13:30she said that Allah is God, Allah is God, Allah is God.
13:34She started firing.
13:36She was saying that she was watching below.
13:38I didn't even know that I was not aware of it.
13:40But in 23 years, I was watching a video with the whole family.
13:44Then, we had a note down,
13:47that this person was saying that this person was saying,
13:49that this person was firing after that.
13:50But in the future, there was no one firing.
13:52But this person, when they were saying these words,
13:57he created this person.
14:01What did you feel suspicious?
14:04Did you feel so weird and tedious,
14:07does the people have not been able to help you or are not possible for you or are not
14:13there for people?
14:18No one thing was that there were not Indian Army but there were local police either
14:25and there were security.
14:28Yes, there was no security there, but there was no security there.
14:34There was no security in the army. Why it wasn't, I don't know. But as it was completely gone, I would like to tell you that in 18 to 22 minutes, the army had covered the tourists in 18 to 22 minutes and took them safely to the parking.
14:50Okay, Kashmir, as we've told you, we say that you want to go to the sea. Do you want to go to the sea? Do you feel confident that you can go to the sea?
15:06Do you want to go to the sea?
15:26What do you want to go to the sea? Because the government of Narendra Modi and the government of Narendra Modi, they said that if any of them will be hidden, they will leave them and they will give them the truth.
15:40What do you want to go to the sea?
15:42What do you want to go to the sea?
16:00You want to go to the sea?
16:01You want to go to the sea?
16:02You want to go to the sea?
16:03But Pakistan has also put their entire sea?
16:06How much is it?
16:08110%
16:10I've seen that in 18 to 22 minutes, the army covered them.
16:16I've seen that in 18 to 18 to 18 to 18 to 18 to 18 to 18 to 18 to 18 to 18 to 18.
16:36I've seen that in 18 to 18 to 19.
16:38I've seen that in 18 to 18 to 18 to 18, I've seen that in 18 to 18 to 18.
16:43And even on that, the army covered the sea.
16:44I've seen that in 18 to 18, I've seen that in 18 to 18, the people will give us good news and good news.
16:52Rishi, this is an issue that you are still alive.
16:57You are still alive and you stay alive and with your family.
17:00For joining me here on India First, Rishi Bhatt from Ahmedabad Gujarat, many thanks.
17:06Now, there have been a series of very high-level meetings
17:09that took place in the national capital today.
17:11Crucial meetings just days after India's big military muscle flex.
17:16Air exercises, exercise Akramar, Aynes Surat,
17:20the guided missile destroyer hitting a sea-skimming target,
17:23the BrahMos supersonic cruise missile capable of hitting a target
17:27more than 400 kilometers away and very accurately.
17:29And since it's a supersonic cruise missile, very difficult to stop it.
17:33All of this, Pakistan is very rattled.
17:37The kind of airborne exercises, the Indian Army is also doing
17:41the heli-borne exercises, deep insertion exercises.
17:44Pakistan appears to be rattled, but what is Pakistan doing?
17:47It's resorting to nuclear saber rattling because it realizes
17:51conventionally the Indian armed forces are far superior.
17:54But is anyone buying Pakistan's nuclear threat?
17:59Or is Pakistan a country that's cried wolf for far too long?
18:04And now there are consequences for General Aasem Munir's actions.
18:09We get you more in this report.
18:10Monday morning saw a series of high-level security meetings in New Delhi.
18:23Union Defence Minister Rajnath Singh was briefed by the Chief of the Army Staff
18:28General Upendra Dravedi in South Block.
18:33Rajnath Singh then met Prime Minister Narendra Modi.
18:36On Sunday, the Indian Navy demonstrated its firepower,
18:47launching the Pramos Supersonic Cruise Missile in a combat exercise.
18:54The message to Pakistan, a state sponsor of radical Islamist terror, is clear.
19:01India is battle-ready.
19:03It's this military muscle flex that has triggered a full-blown meltdown in Pakistan
19:13with several Pakistani political leaders issuing explicit threats of nuclear retaliation against India.
19:24Pakistan's defense minister Khwaja Aasif also threatened India with a full-blown war.
19:47Pakistan has issued a nuclear threat to India, even in the past.
20:17India is conventionally far superior to Pakistan with its larger and more advanced armed forces
20:34with better technology equipment.
20:36And it's because of India's conventional superiority that Pakistan has a low threshold
20:45and threatens India with swift nuclear escalation.
20:51India's nuclear policy, formally centered on a no-first-use policy,
20:57has shown signs of flexibility in recent years.
21:00Some Indian leaders have hinted that a major terrorist attack,
21:06particularly one linked to Pakistan, could trigger a strong response
21:11under certain circumstances, especially if chemical or biological weapons have been used.
21:18Pakistan should know that its nuclear saber rattling
21:21is not going to rattle anyone in India anymore.
21:27Bureau Report, India Today.
21:29Now, we have a battery of experts who are joining us, domain experts on this special broadcast.
21:39But I want our viewers to understand, now, Pakistan is a very narrow, dog-shaped country.
21:46And when you look at that country, and remember, Muhammad Ali Jinnah, when he got to Pakistan, he did.
21:51He said, I've got a moth-eaten Pakistan.
21:53So, let me show you that moth-eaten Pakistan.
21:57And let me also show you where Pakistan, in this moth-eaten country, on the map,
22:03has its missile and transport erectable launcher production bases,
22:10its air bases from where it can launch the F-16s, which are nuclear capable,
22:15where it has the garrisons, where it has these missile launchers,
22:19or the transport erectable launcher sites.
22:21And where are the places, like Sargoda, for example, or where its missile production happens.
22:29So, that's the Pakistani map.
22:31All the way from Pakistan's Punjab province to the Sindh province,
22:36you're looking at where Pakistan has...
22:38So, for example, let's start from the bottom.
22:41In Karachi, in Sindh, you have the Masroor air base.
22:44It has the Mirages there, which Pakistan insists are nuclear capable.
22:49It has the Acro garrison, where it can find surface-to-air missiles.
22:53Then you start moving up north.
22:57You have the Shabazz air base, once again capable of launching nuclear missiles.
23:02They have the F-16s that are at the Mushaf air base.
23:07You have the Gujarawala garrison, and Gujarawala in Sargoda are very, very critical.
23:12The Rafiki air base, once again, has the Mirages.
23:15The Tharanwa missile complex is where they produce not just the missiles,
23:20but also the transport erectable launchers.
23:22So, this is where you see the Dera Ghazi Khan is a nuclear complex we have,
23:27where they have plutonium production and uranium extraction.
23:30The Chashma reprocessing plant.
23:32So, Pakistan's entire missile and nuclear weapons network is there on your television screen.
23:39And we shall take this base by base to get you more details over the course of the next several days.
23:46I have Lefton General Satish Dua joining me on this special broadcast.
23:50He's former Chief of the Integrated Defence Staff.
23:52He's also commanded the Kashmir Corps.
23:54Joining us on this broadcast, Commodore Anil Jai Singh is a veteran submariner.
23:59And remember, it's the submarine arm that's a very critical force to deliver the second strike capability.
24:07We have with us Air Marshal Sanjeev Kapoor, former Director General of Inspections and Flight Safety,
24:12to tell us more about what are India's options to take out the threat that emanates from Pakistan.
24:18And if we were to talk about, is it the Navy this time?
24:22Is it the Army?
24:22Is it the Air Force?
24:23Let me begin by asking, you know, General Dua.
24:28General Dua, what do you make of Pakistan's nuclear saber rattling?
24:32What Hanif Abasi, their railways minister said, is that a potent threat?
24:37Or is that a message perhaps for the West to intervene and save Pakistan?
24:44Gaurav, Pakistan has been playing the nuclear card for too long.
24:50It was in the Kargil War, Kargil conflict, and later, especially during the Puri surgical strikes,
25:00and I was a court commander at that time, that we found that little space below the nuclear threshold.
25:08And we also repeated that after Pulwama happened by the precision airstrike at Jabhatop near Balakot.
25:16So, Pakistan, as you were yourself saying a little while ago,
25:22that Pakistan knows that it is no match for India in conventional terms,
25:28both qualitatively and quantitatively.
25:32And in fact, that is why it has waged this death by thousand cuts proxy war.
25:41So, Pakistan, at this stage, when India has already unleashed a slew of very, very harsh measures,
25:52harshest among them being Indus Water Treaty, which, a suspension, which has withstood three and a half wars,
26:00but never been sort of used as a leverage.
26:02So, when such measures have been unleashed, when Prime Minister has announced to the world,
26:10after Defence Minister having announced already, when he announced,
26:14we're speaking in Bihar, when he speaks in English, he's addressing the global audience
26:18and saying that we are going to track down not only the terrorists, but also the ecosystem.
26:24So, Pakistan is rattled.
26:28Now, as far as your nuclear saber rattling is concerned, rattled, it certainly is.
26:33So, the only thing that it does, it knows, it does always in such situations,
26:39is nuclear saber rattling.
26:41Because, as you rightly said, Pakistan now perhaps wants West to intervene.
26:48Okay.
26:49Because they are rattled.
26:51Now, when you look at the…
26:53Last two sentences, just allow me last two sentences.
26:55Go on, sir.
26:56So, there are…
26:57You know, nuclear rattling is different, but actually putting it into effect has different dimensions.
27:04It is not just nuclear weapons to be used.
27:07It is that military aspect.
27:09There is…
27:10Of mating different components, there are different places.
27:13It's a complex process.
27:14It is not something that can be launched because you were showing those bases.
27:17It's not that it can be launched from one base.
27:19That's one aspect.
27:20So, when movement takes place, the world will pick it up.
27:23Sensors pick it up.
27:23Satellites pick it up.
27:24So, there is a whole moment.
27:25And on the second last sentence from my side, there is the whole global dynamics.
27:31Because Pakistan today is seen as epicenter of terrorism.
27:35If it even tries to move in that direction, it will become a global pariah.
27:40So, I think there is a lot to be seen in that.
27:43But yet, we must always keep our guards up.
27:45We have already started with those exercises, revalidating our defense preparedness.
27:51And we are fully prepared to meet any threat.
27:55Okay.
27:56A. Marshall Kapoor, when you look at Pakistan's nuclear saber rattling, when you look at the
28:02kind of fighter jets it has, when you look at its missiles, its missile launchers, and
28:07some of them, they are actually showing, they are displaying to the world that at least some
28:11military movement is taking place closer to the borders.
28:14Is that reassuring their own country?
28:17Or are we in a position, when you look at the situation, and when you look at the entire
28:22international border, line of control, and actual ground position line, are we in a position
28:29to dominate this battlefield completely?
28:32Or is there a way we can punish them without the kinetic means just as yet?
28:36The build-up, which has happened is, is immediately after Pahelga.
28:45So, my understanding of the whole situation is that they were forewarned that we will ask
28:52you to be ready on this date and this time.
28:55And obviously, the very next morning, after 22nd, you could see the movement on Flight 24
29:02Radar and other activities.
29:03Now, coming to your point about capabilities, Pakistan has F-16s, JF-17s, and Mirage 3 and
29:115 variants, which can carry nuclear weapons.
29:14And they have their own missiles, RAD, this thing is a HATF-8, and RAD, these are the two
29:21weapons that they can carry.
29:23And primarily, these are nuclear gravity bombs, along with certain air-launched cruise missiles.
29:29Now, the map which you just showed a little while ago, if you will see this map, or if
29:37you can flash it again.
29:39We'll just flash that map once again.
29:41That big map of, I want our viewers to see that map that we just showed, dog-shaped Pakistan
29:46with all its facilities.
29:48Go on, sir.
29:48So, if you notice, the complete processing plants, the nuclear complexes, and the other
29:56enrichment things are away from the Indian border.
30:01So, that is the depth with which they have set up these things.
30:06The frontline bases acts as a guard to those bases, because if any attack comes towards Pakistan,
30:12it will come from the east-degree direction.
30:15So, this is how, when they planned their, this thing, the primary industries and the
30:20bases which they planned, was keeping these things in mind.
30:23So, it is not that their Deiragazi Khan and Kushap nuclear complex and Chishma processing
30:29plant, and all these things will not be guarded.
30:32It will be guarded both by the air defense weapons, it will be guarded by the missiles,
30:36right, and it will have, of course, the air defense, aeroplanes guarding from the war
30:41fees.
30:42So, we are aware of all the tactics that will be employed in case of any conflict, and obviously,
30:48these would be targets.
30:50But when, how, and from where is the question.
30:54So, the dynamics which I covered on the channel the other day, sorry, I was on Republic the other
31:00day.
31:01See, the two things which are emerging out was, one is the large number of officers and
31:08their soldiers who are putting in the resignation.
31:11So, the internal things which are coming out on social media, and also the, a lot of local
31:19commanders, their battalion commanders, their brigade commanders, their Dave commanders are
31:24sending panic messages that they are running short of ammunition and other things.
31:28So, like I covered with you two days ago, that the army this time is stressed within
31:34their own law and order enforcement in their own country, starting from Balochistan, right,
31:39till...
31:40No, that's a very pertinent point to make.
31:42In fact, I'll come to that point in just a moment.
31:44Can Pakistan fight on multiple fronts?
31:46Because that's again a map that we will put out.
31:48Because on India Today, we want our viewers to understand that Pakistan is not in a position
31:54to wage war against India, except, except war by other means, which is using these radical
32:02Islamist terrorists.
32:03And I once again want to show you the map.
32:06I want to go by base by base and some of the prominent bases.
32:09So, for example, when we talk about the Akro garrison, which is a possible nuclear capable
32:14missile base.
32:15I want to show you this missile base for a moment where I want you to understand that
32:20what all does Pakistan have here?
32:23Watch this.
32:25When you take a look at this nuclear capable missile base, it has its own weapons handling
32:30building.
32:31It has the tell-tale is their transport launchers.
32:36They have the garages there.
32:40And this is where I want you to understand.
32:42So, there's a covered ramp there, there, watch, watch, watch these images very carefully.
32:47The weapons handling bases, the main missile launch area, the covered access and this entire
32:52perimeter, if you watch in these images, this entire perimeter is very well guarded.
32:56What is it guarded by?
32:58Not just men on ground, it has surface to air missiles around it, which means, which means
33:03very clearly that they expect and anticipate that these bases could well be targeted.
33:08And I once again want to bring in Commodore Anil Jaisingh into this conversation.
33:12Commodore, the fact that Indian Navy used the surface to air the BrahMos supersonic cruise
33:20missile, was the signal that it's a supersonic cruise missile, can it be intercepted?
33:25Or once you fire a barrage, maybe some can be intercepted, some will hit.
33:30Is that Pakistan's fear?
33:32Yes, of course.
33:34I think, you know, Pakistan this time has bitten off more than it can chew.
33:38We've seen right from independence, whenever the internal situation has been tenuous, they've
33:43tried to divert attention by doing something with India.
33:46And every time, unfortunately for them, it's backfired on them, but they don't seem to be
33:50learning any lessons.
33:51In this case, if you take this particular instance, I'm sure India is now quite sick and tired of
33:57all this, you know, sort of constant sniping at our heels and is planning a decisive action
34:03of some kind, whether kinetic or non-kinetic or a combination of both.
34:08But from a maritime perspective, the very fact that we can fire a missile like the BrahMos,
34:12and we've shown one yesterday by firing one, firstly, indicates our readiness.
34:16Secondly, indicates our conventional superiority over the Pakistan Navy.
34:20The Pakistan Navy really is hardly a force to reckon with.
34:23You know, if you just take the force levels, which are not really a very valid sort of
34:29comparison, but for example, we've got 16 submarines, they've got three.
34:33So that's a sort of, you know, asymmetry between our two naval forces.
34:37And more important, I think, is the fact that a fleet, just by its sheer presence, can intimidate
34:45another, a weaker force.
34:47Not only that, the Indian Navy, without firing a shot, can perhaps choke Pakistan economically.
34:54And I think, personally, I think that is Pakistan's juggler way in right now.
34:58They are so strapped economically that they do not have the capacity to fight a war, if
35:03that is what they're spoiling for.
35:05And insofar as that nuclear threat goes, I think, you know, this is something we've heard
35:09regularly from them, nuclear threats, nuclear, you know, firing a nuclear weapon is not something
35:13that one does, you know, by the way, as General Dua said, it requires a very, very informed
35:19decision to do that.
35:21And obviously, India is not going to, just because they're going to do a tactical nuclear
35:24weapon at sea to probably take out an aircraft carrier, does not mean that India will not
35:29retaliate, you know, with its massive retaliation second strike.
35:33So Pakistan has to be worried about that.
35:35So I don't think this nuclear rhetoric has been created by them many a time that it's not
35:39meant to be in show windows, it's meant for use against India, etc.
35:42This is not the first time, as you showed yourself in your program.
35:45But I think as far as the Navy is concerned, the Navy is overwhelmingly superior.
35:48We can establish firm sea control in the North Arabian Sea.
35:52If push comes to shove and the situation escalates, we can impose something like an exclusion zone.
35:58You know, just send a message out to the world that, look, your ships can come in with
36:01trade, but we don't guarantee their safety.
36:04That in itself increases the insurance premium so much that Pakistan will not be able to afford
36:08those ships coming in to bring cargo to them.
36:10And this is particularly true if you decide to hit their energy.
36:15Absolutely.
36:15And I'm sure Pakistan knows this.
36:17I mean, in 71, Karachi was burning for 11 days and Pakistan ran out of fuel.
36:22But I want to understand from our view, from our experts, Jal Dua, I'm sure Aasem Muneer,
36:28the radical Islamist, you know, Quran quoting Moilana that he is, I am sure he must be knowing
36:36all of this.
36:37And yet he did, you know, what he did at Pahal Gaam.
36:41Are we to understand?
36:42They wargamed it.
36:43They wargamed fine after Uri India did a surgical strike, after Pulwama India did a bala coat,
36:49and then they did a swift retort.
36:51And after that, we were silent, which means they wargamed it, that we are not willing
36:55to go up the escalation ladder.
36:58And perhaps even now we may try another bala coat, but we will not do.
37:03So they will strike.
37:04We strike.
37:04They strike again.
37:05We are not willing to climb up the escalation ladder.
37:08Is that the message he would be thinking in his tactical mindset?
37:15No, I think Pakistan has been rattled over the last five years by their diminishing relevance
37:22in affairs of Kashmir.
37:25How India has turned the tables after an abrogation of Article 370 and how peace development,
37:31tourism, etc. has increased in Kashmir and feeling of normalcy is setting in.
37:35So they've taken a leaf out of the Hamas playbook.
37:39Hamas also knew on 7th October when they attacked the Nova Music Fest and innocent people out for
37:45a party that they will invite retaliation.
37:49Now, our retaliation may be different, but Asim Munir knows it.
37:53And I think he is doing this first to increase the relevance for the domestic audience.
37:59Perhaps he's also, look at the rant of a speech he gave a few days before this Pelagam episode
38:06happened.
38:07He's also looking to consolidate his own position.
38:11Some even say that he's looking at a coup when things turn worse.
38:14So there are other dynamics at play within Pakistan.
38:18I'm sure he knew that they will invite that kind of rat.
38:21But I think no one counted on Indus Water's suspension, which has the potential of actually
38:31creating a civil unrest in the country, in their country.
38:34We are already hearing the rumblings.
38:36And coupled with the Balochistan problem, the Pashtun problem and the civil unrest happening
38:43over here, I think Pakistan and the rulers are in for a tough time.
38:46They're in for a tough time.
38:49How long is your appreciation, Aay Marshall Kapoor, of Pakistan?
38:53Because there are many who say, and in fact there are some voices within Balochistan and
38:58Khaybar-Pakhtoonghua, that it says it's high time.
39:00Balochistan should become an independent country.
39:03Khaybar-Pakhtoonghua should become, you know, Pashtunistan.
39:06Sindh should become Sindhudesh.
39:08And then all the terrorists can keep fighting.
39:11You know, those Pakistani Punjabi Muslims, they can continue to fight in Punjab province
39:15because the rest is ours and we will take what is ours.
39:19But Aay Marshall Kapoor, is that a pipe dream of people in Balochistan and Pashtunistan?
39:25Yes, this time it is different.
39:27The struggle has been on.
39:29And this is the fourth and the fifth, fourth or the fifth struggle of Balochis seeking
39:34independence.
39:35But this time it is different because all the loose factions came together.
39:40Ms. Baharang Baloch took on the mantle of women taking the funds.
39:47In a country like Pakistan, I have never seen.
39:50In December last, in Jan this year, she took legs and legs of women who marched across,
39:57complete of Balochistan right to Islamabad.
39:59So, and across in this journey, the armed forces put a lot of barriers and restrictions.
40:06But she did reach.
40:07The second point is the sympathy for Imran Khan, who is in prison.
40:12The third experience which I have is that the alliance between TTP and BLA.
40:19Now, four or five loose factions of Balochis have come under the umbrella of BLA.
40:23So, this Jafar Express hijacking and also associated attack on the military, this thing, has a stamp.
40:30Because the weapons which are caught and taken by them, bear the stamp of these weapons which
40:36are left behind by the Americans in Afghanistan.
40:38Very interesting, you should point that out.
40:42So, the impression you are giving is that Pakistan's internal troubles, the Indus Waters Treaty,
40:49will not lead to the situation escalating whatsoever, even to a conventional war,
40:54let alone expanding to a nuclear war.
40:57Gentlemen, I want to continue talking about this, but perhaps we leave it for a later day.
41:02For joining me here on India Today, many thanks.
41:04I quickly now want to cut across to the Israeli ambassador to India, who joins us on this special
41:11broadcast.
41:12Ambassador, many thanks for being patient and many thanks for joining me.
41:16You just heard our experts and they are saying that there are tremendous similarities between
41:21the October 7th Hamas terror attack in Israel, especially at that Nova Film Festival, and what
41:27happened in Pelgam.
41:28The coordination, the cooperation between Hamas terrorists, Lashkar-e-Taiba, and Jaish-e-Mohammad,
41:35between these transnational radical Islamist terror outfits, is that a cause for concern?
41:40And do you see that parallel, sir?
41:45Well, the most worrying phenomenon is the inspiration that the atrocious attack of the 7th of October
41:53has given to terrorists around the world, because this is being broadcasted, despite the fact
42:02that Gaza is completely destroyed, and despite the fact that the Hamas military machinery
42:08is destroyed, the psychological effect of the fact that these crimes have been not only
42:17recorded, but also shown live on TV on the 7th of October, this has given a huge wave of
42:25inspiration to terrorist organizations around the world.
42:28And following the 7th of October, Hamas leaders were invited to different parts of the world,
42:33including to Pakistan-occupied Kashmir.
42:36So beyond any, you know, intelligence that intelligence agencies may have regarding connections
42:43between terrorist organizations, what we clearly see here is that there is a pattern of brutality
42:50and criminality against civilians, against innocent people.
42:55The effect of shock, the effect of violence, the effect of murder, this is what the terrorists
43:03are taking from another, and they are encouraging another to commit these crimes in the name
43:08of religion.
43:11And this isn't restricted just, you know, to either India in Pehelgam or Pulwama or Pathan
43:18court, or to Israel.
43:21Democracies virtually around the world are in the line of fire of these radical Islamist terrorists.
43:26I mean, U.S. had 9-11, Israel had October 7, London had had 7-7 and 21-7 bombings, radical
43:33Islamists are on the streets of France, of Germany.
43:37What can and should democracies do together to operate together to ensure that these radical
43:44Islamist terrorists don't have space to operate?
43:47What's your advice, whether it's to India or to other democracies on the road ahead, and
43:52especially, you know, countries like democracies like India?
43:57Well, first of all, it's completely up to the Indian government to decide what to do
44:01and how to do it.
44:02They have the expertise, and I don't see in me or my fellow countrymen the ones who have
44:08to give advice to the Indian government in that respect.
44:11I think that it is important to back the initiative of the Indian government, because sponsors of
44:20terrorism have to be held accountable.
44:23We are suffering from the same phenomenon.
44:26There are countries around the world that are supplying arms to Hamas, they are supplying
44:31knowledge, they are supplying different kinds of financial assistance, and these terrorists
44:39are being also harbored by other countries.
44:42So, of course, this is something that has to be isolated and punished, and therefore,
44:47our approach is to support the Indian government while making an effort to stop such sponsoring.
44:56And you've also spoken of the need for international sanctions and restrictions on entities that
45:06support radical Islamist terrorists or these extremist elements.
45:11Could you give us details of what Israel has done?
45:15Has it worked?
45:16You know, financial sanctions, using technology to keep an eye on them, intelligence operations.
45:23What is it that India could also do to strengthen India's war on Pakistan's state-sponsored radical
45:30Islamist terrassa?
45:33Well, there are several areas of action and several ways in which we can be effective, provided
45:41that we work together, that we have a coalition of countries, of like-minded countries that will
45:47tackle, number one, media companies and satellite companies that are giving platforms to the
45:54terrorist organizations and to extreme content.
45:57You know, there are hundreds of satellite channels, for example, that are being, that are broadcasting
46:03all over the world.
46:04These channels are taking services from companies who own the satellites.
46:08So, we can approach together the companies that own the satellites to encourage them or to
46:15prohibit them from engaging with such elements.
46:19That's one example.
46:21Other examples, of course, have to do with tightening the ropes around supply chains of materials, of
46:30raw materials that can help in the creation or in the production of weapons.
46:36OK, so these are things that not only international institutions, but also countries themselves by
46:43working together can can maybe, you know, have an effect on sanctions can be can be can
46:52be put on on on those who are not cooperating with that line.
46:59Sanctions can be put on countries that are not cooperating or entities that are not cooperating
47:04in this war on radical Islamist terror.
47:06So, when Prime Minister Narendra Modi and your Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu spoke, what
47:13is the deeper cooperation?
47:14What's the strategic cooperation that that's either taking place or you see taking place
47:20between India and Israel to ensure that radical Islamist terror does not bleed your country
47:27or us, your people and ours?
47:31Well, first of all, we will continue working both on intelligence, on developing capabilities
47:38and also on methodologies.
47:41But beyond that, you know, this is linked also with your previous question.
47:45I think we can consult together how we can approach in a more efficient way stakeholders in
47:52the world in order to tackle both the terrorists and their sponsors.
47:56Okay.
47:57Now, Prime Minister Narendra Modi has reiterated India's resolve to bring the perpetrators of
48:01terror to justice, not just the perpetrators of terror, but also those who backed them.
48:06How difficult has Israel's journey been, you know, based on what happened to your country
48:10in October 7th, what are lessons that Israel has learned and what are steps that India must
48:16take for swift and decisive international action to ensure that a state sponsor of radical Islamist
48:24terror like Pakistan can be held to account?
48:29Well, Gaurav, I think that your Prime Minister and the entire government have their experience
48:35they need in order to tackle the problem.
48:38We can work together both quietly on the security channels and I think maybe more openly on the
48:44diplomatic channels in order to promote cooperation against terrorists at the national level and
48:53the international level.
48:55And we are determined to do that.
48:58Okay.
48:58But this entire ecosystem in, you know, in the world, there is this ecosystem that seems to
49:05give cover to radical Islamist terror, the use of democratic systems against democracies.
49:12What needs to be done to ensure that terrorists don't enjoy, you know, the kind of patronage
49:19they seem to do and global criticism goes beyond just condemning a terror strike.
49:25It needs to have concrete action to ensure that terror is not a low-cost option for any country.
49:35Well, first of all, countries have to stop contextualizing terrorism.
49:43You cannot contextualize terrorism.
49:45Okay.
49:46Terrorism is forbidden.
49:48It's out of the question.
49:49It's out of the rules of the game.
49:51And it doesn't matter whether they emanate from a territorial dispute or another kind of dispute.
49:59It's completely irrelevant.
50:03And the countries must not only condemn the violence, but they have to stop contextualizing
50:10terrorism.
50:11Okay.
50:11This is number one.
50:12Number two, those who are condemning, they should actually, you know, put their deeds behind
50:19their words and help those who are hit by terrorism, like India and Israel, to delegitimize those
50:29organizations, to punish those who sponsor them.
50:33So, yes, we've seen many condemnations around the world.
50:37The question is, what is the follow-up to the condemnation?
50:40Absolutely.
50:41Both in terms of how they speak about it, but also in terms of how they do what they do in
50:48order to prevent these things from happening in the future.
50:50And what can the international community do together?
50:55Right now, for example, India is bleeding.
50:58We've lost 26 of our people where these radical Islamist terrorists came.
51:02And you just heard the eyewitness, the survivor, who said they saw identity cards or words to
51:09their effect.
51:10They asked their names, found out religion, and then shot people in cold blood, often at
51:14point-blank range in front of their children.
51:15What does one do to ensure that such elements do not find safe sanctuaries in a state sponsor
51:23of terror like Pakistan, and terror does not remain a low-cost option for Pakistan to bleed
51:27India?
51:32Well, we've seen how the United States has treated sponsors of terrorism in the past.
51:39You have it in the sets of sanctions that have been put, not only by the United States, but
51:44also by Europe.
51:45On countries like Iran, like Syria, like Lebanon, like Iraq, etc.
51:52Like Sudan.
51:53So there are plenty of examples.
51:56Okay?
51:57The question is whether they can follow through on that example, on those examples, when it
52:03comes to additional countries that sponsor terrorism like Pakistan.
52:08That's a very pertinent point to make, Ambassador, for joining me here on this India first special
52:15broadcast.
52:16Many thanks.
52:17That actually truly is India's civilizational philosophy that has been articulated very well
52:23well by Rashtrakavi Ramdhari Singh Dinkar in Shakti and Kshama, where he said,
52:29only the brave, only the strong are respected in this world.
52:46And that is where India needs to display its full military, strategic and national might
52:53to ensure terror does not remain a low-cost option for Pakistan.
52:58That is all I have for you on this India first special broadcast.
53:01Many thanks for watching.