The BJP and Congress sparred over the remarks made by some Congress leaders, including Saifuddin Soz on the terror attack in Jammu and Kashmir's Pahalgam. Listen in to their reactions.
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00:00Good evening, you're watching To The Point. I'm Preeti Chaudhary.
00:03Two big debates lined up for you.
00:05Debate number one, who is politicizing the Pehalgaam terror attack?
00:09Is it the opposition, mainly the Congress, which the BJP is going after?
00:13Or is it also the BJP? Is it both of them?
00:16That's our debate number one. We'll come back to debate number two.
00:19But first up, allow me to take you through the headlines.
00:25New horror video of 22nd April massacre.
00:28Moments when terrorists began fighting on video.
00:31Pehalgaam terrorists still holed up in jungle.
00:33Pakistan terrorists just 20 kilometers from massacre spot.
00:42Key Modi Rajanath meet over Pehalgaam terror attacks at Prime Minister's residence.
00:47PM Modi briefed on ongoing operations, overall preps of services.
00:51Jammu and Kashmir Chief Minister Omar Abdullah grieves death of Pehalgaam victims as will not talk of statehood at this time.
01:02Our lost face.
01:03Congress Neta Saifuddin Saus claims Pakistan says no role in terror accepted.
01:11Congress distanced from Saus remarks.
01:13Rahul and Khadge upset by comment.
01:19Congress Chief Malik Arjun Khadge slams Union Minister Piyush Goyal over patriotism remarks,
01:25where the Union Minister had said 140 crore Indians are not patriotic.
01:31Many fear, even insinuated to the Muslim community.
01:35India France signed game-changer 63,000 crore Rafale deal.
01:39Rafale jets to be stationed on board INS Vikram.
01:4326-11 attacks accused the Harvard Rana sent to 12-day NIA custody.
01:51NIA said Rana's custody required to piece together the full scope of the conspiracy.
02:05Alright viewers, just early this morning, you had Saifuddin Saus, Congress leader,
02:10who had made two very unsavory statements,
02:13especially when it comes down to sensitivity of the survivors and the victims of the Pehalgaam terror attack.
02:19Number one, Saifuddin Saus had said if Pakistan is denying its role in the involvement,
02:23India should believe it.
02:24Number two, that the Indus Water Treaty is the lifeline of Pakistan
02:29and India should not shut the waters.
02:32Both of them didn't go down too well where politics was concerned
02:37and also considered highly unsavory and insensitive to the survivors of the terror attack.
02:43I spoke to Saifuddin Saus' son, Salman Saus, who is also a Congress spokesperson.
02:50Listen in.
02:50Cut across at this point of time to Mr. Salman Saus, he's the son of Saifuddin Saus.
03:02Mr. Saus, appreciate you taking the time out and joining us.
03:05There's been a fair amount of furor which is coming in,
03:08especially from the ranks of the Bharatiya Janata Party at the back of what your father said.
03:12Number one, that where it comes down to the Indus Water Treaty, we should allow them water.
03:17Number two, that we should actually believe Pakistan if Pakistan is saying that they're not involved.
03:24Well, Preeti, thank you for giving me the opportunity.
03:28In fact, I spoke to Professor Saus, my father, just recently,
03:33and I expressed to him my deep displeasure and disappointment at his comments.
03:38And he said that my comments are always taken out of context.
03:44And I said, if that is the case, then please do not give interviews.
03:47If you do not give interviews, then your comments will not be taken out of context.
03:51But I can tell you what, you know, he does not obviously speak for the Congress Party.
03:57You know, for all practical purposes, he's retired.
04:00And as far as the Congress Party is concerned, the Congress Party had a,
04:05we have a resolution from the Congress Working Committee,
04:08that the cowardly and calculated act of terror was masterminded by Pakistan.
04:15And it is a direct assault on the values of our republic,
04:19that, you know, this deliberate targeting of Hindus was done to inflame passions across the country.
04:24And that is what the Congress Working Committee has said.
04:26And we have said that we are with the government as it formulates a response to this dastardly act.
04:32So I don't think, you know, what Professor Saus might say or anybody else,
04:36I mean, these are distractions that we can do without.
04:40But as far as we are concerned, the Congress Party and the government,
04:43and we're all in this together as a people.
04:47So, you know, Mr. Saus, number one, I would reckon that you as a congressman
04:52and a son are distancing yourself from Mr. Saus's, Professor Saus's comments.
05:00Well, you know, our party's position is clear, and I'm a spokesperson of the party.
05:05Professor Saus is not the spokesperson of the party.
05:09And, you know, what he has said, he said that, you know,
05:12there's a lot of things taken out of context.
05:14I did recommend to him that maybe he should not be speaking to the press then.
05:20And, of course, you know, as a son, you know, anybody who's watching us right now can tell,
05:25we're not always able to prevail upon our parents.
05:28You know, our parents, they're older, we respect them.
05:31At the same time, you know, as a member of my party, as a spokesperson, our views are clear.
05:39The Congress Party's position is clear.
05:42We are in this with the government and with the country.
05:45Because this heinous crime has happened, and we know that Pakistan has been doing things in Kashmir for a long time.
05:54So there are no two, you know, views about this.
05:58So Congress Party's view prevails.
06:00Mr. Saus, you know, these are highly sensitive times,
06:03especially because the terror attack was communal in nature.
06:07Will the aftermath be communal is the big question.
06:09So once, while we accept what really went down in Pehalgaam was a communal terror strike
06:15where you had Hindus being picked and targeted.
06:19But in the aftermath of it, either we can continue making it communal or unite as Indians.
06:25The question that I ask you is, because you had Mr. Khadgi a short while back come out and condemn
06:30even the likes of Union Minister Piyush Goyal,
06:33where he said that 140 crore Indians are not as patriotic,
06:38and maybe that's why we suffer at the hands of terror, which way we do.
06:43You know, in fact, I was going to mention that.
06:46You see, Professor Saus does not speak for the Congress Party.
06:49But Piyush Goyal, he speaks for the government and the Beijing.
06:53And when he says that, you know, basically, his view seems to be that
06:58these things are happening because 140 crore Indians are not patriotic.
07:02They don't love their country.
07:04And I think that is, to my mind, that is a far more damaging thing
07:08than what Professor Saus might say, who, as I said, is retired for all practical purposes.
07:13Now, the BJP may want us to go in these different directions
07:18because yet another massive, dastardly terrorist attack has taken innocent lives.
07:26And the BJP is ruling, and they have no explanation as to why the security breach happened.
07:33So, of course, they latch on to comments like the ones made by my father,
07:37which, as I said, I expressed to him my deep disappointment about his comments.
07:43But at the same time, I think everybody, the government, Mr. Goyal or BJP,
07:48and, of course, the Congress Party, we have to say that we have to fight this together.
07:53We have to be in this together.
07:54If we start raising, you know, if we start fighting with each other,
07:57that is not going to help the, you know, help us do justice for the victims of the health.
08:03You know, because this is a time, you know, one final question, Mr. Saus,
08:08because you're a Congress spokesperson, so I ask you, you know, from that lens.
08:12This is a time also to show great restraint and to, somewhere down the line,
08:16solidarity with the government, which in the all-party meet, the Congress did.
08:20But having said that, we've had multiple voices.
08:23You have the Karnataka chief minister who's now come out and seemingly suggested,
08:27maybe in good faith, that war is not an option.
08:29But, you know, at a time where we've lost 26 lives,
08:34there are 26 families who want retribution, if not revenge.
08:39These can be deemed as insensitive.
08:42Then you have an MLA from Maharashtra who's made one of the most preposterous statements as well.
08:47You know, you have Mr. Shashi Tharoor who actually spoke in a more reconciliatory manner,
08:52but he's been panned within the Congress for doing so.
08:55Is it, you know, time that at least there is a whip that the party issues,
08:58so you do not have these motor mouths that you have to constantly keep explaining for?
09:04No, first of all, I would not call the Karnataka chief minister a motor mouth
09:09because I've not heard his comments.
09:11I cannot really comment on what he said.
09:13All the gentlemen from Haryana, I'm not privy to those comments.
09:18I can simply say this.
09:20The Congress Working Committee, which is our highest, you know, organizational body,
09:25the Congress Working Committee has made the Congress Party's position clear.
09:29Everybody who is in the Congress Party, any position of, you know, responsibility that we have,
09:35we have to abide by the party's, you know, in some ways directions.
09:41And those directions are clear.
09:42This was a dastardly attack that was orchestrated with the purpose of dividing us.
09:48And the best response to this is for us to not be divided, for us to stand together.
09:55And, of course, in the Congress Party, that is what we are trying to do.
09:59That is what we are endeavoring to do.
10:01And, of course, if anybody goes against the Congress Working Committee's, you know, resolution,
10:06then, of course, the party will, you know, act accordingly.
10:09All right.
10:09Thank you, Mr. Source, for taking the time out and joining us and at least giving us your perspective,
10:14both as a son and a Congress spokesperson.
10:16Appreciate it.
10:17Thank you for joining us.
10:18But the fact, viewers, is it's not just the Congress leaders who are making bizarre, insensitive statements.
10:32Also, it's coming in from somewhere even at the level of being a union minister,
10:38where BJP union minister P. Ushkowal has made a highly communally charged statement.
10:43So, it's not just the Congress, it's not just the BJP.
10:46Sadly, it's the both of them to blame.
10:49Here's more.
10:58Restrain, empathy, timing have never been the strongest suit of politicians.
11:06The embers of the Pehelgam terror attack still simmering.
11:09And it does seem the two-minute silence at the all-party meet was the only piece of unity that our politicians have showed.
11:21Insensitive, ill-informed, delusional to downright communal.
11:27That is the kind of political commentary they are witnessing in the aftermath of terror.
11:32And sadly, yet, expectedly, it's coming from either sides of the political divide.
11:42Congress leader Saifuddin Sars made a statement that many would suggest was highly insensitive.
11:49Especially to those who died in the terror attack.
11:52If Pakistan says that it is not involved, let us accept that argument for a time.
12:04Suggesting, India should take Pakistan's word on no role in terror attack.
12:30Meanwhile, Karnataka minister, R.B. Timappa, suggested there was no religious profiling of victims,
12:39contrary to what victims themselves have been reporting.
12:43That terrorists didn't ask about religion before shooting people.
12:48Blaming the government, he claimed the situation is being twisted for religious and political gain.
12:54This appalling statement was bolstered by another Congress leader from Maharashtra, Vijay Vatidar,
13:02who claimed terrorists didn't have the time for religious profiling,
13:07claiming political narrative behind these claims.
13:10While Congress leader Shashi Tharoor backed central agencies,
13:14even though the Congress is going after the government on intelligence failure.
13:18Tharoor said that while agencies' success in thwarting terror attacks goes unnoticed,
13:26failures are highlighted.
13:28This didn't go down well with a few Congress leaders.
13:31Udit Raj from the Congress accused him of siding with the BJP.
13:36I want to ask Shashi Tharoor,
13:38is he in the Congress party or the BJP?
13:42However, insensitivity wasn't just the preserve of the Congress.
13:48Union Minister Piyush Goyal came up with a deeply communal shocker.
13:53Mr. Goyal said that terror attacks like the one in Pehalgaam
13:57would continue to disturb the nation,
14:00as long as 140 crore Indians don't regard patriotism and nationalism
14:07as their paramount dharma.
14:12Many interpreted it as 140 crore Muslims
14:35are not patriotic to the country,
14:39a deeply troubling and disconcerting view, if true.
14:44The people who have the power of the country
14:46have the power of the country.
14:47So what did Indra ji know himself?
14:52For the people who fought for the freedom of Mahatma Gandhi,
14:55who killed the people in the scene?
14:57Who killed the people in the scene?
14:59One thing is clear.
15:04When it comes to politics cutting across party lines,
15:08it is never too soon to politicize.
15:13Even a gruesome incident like the Pehalgaam terror attacks.
15:17Which prompts us to ask the following questions this evening.
15:25Who is politicizing terror?
15:27Is it the BJP, is it the Congress,
15:29or rather it is the both of them,
15:32the BJP and the Congress?
15:34The second question,
15:35will real questions, tangible questions,
15:38that must be asked and answered at this point of time,
15:41somewhere down the line,
15:42being eclipsed by petty politics?
15:44Questions on national security?
15:48Questions on what should be India's action?
15:50All of that falling collateral
15:51to parties sniping at each other.
15:55Commentary by a few Congress leaders,
15:57gaslighting terror victims and survivors,
15:59because victims and survivors have repeatedly
16:01come out and stated that their religion was asked for
16:05and they were profiled and shot
16:07on the basis of being Hindu.
16:09Are certain Congress leaders
16:11gaslighting them completely
16:13by suggesting that terrorists never did that.
16:15On the other hand,
16:16the communal statements by BJP ministers
16:18only adding to divide the country further.
16:23You had Union Minister Piyush Goyal,
16:25who said,
16:25there are 140 crore Indians
16:28who don't feel as patriotic.
16:30And that is why these incidents happen.
16:32Many of their people reading that statement
16:35as deeply communal,
16:36where he was insinuating towards Muslims.
16:40We take all these questions
16:41to our guests this evening.
16:42We also have our timer for two minutes.
16:44Sanju Verma,
16:45National Spokesperson BJP,
16:47Adil Singh Boparoy,
16:48National Spokesperson Congress.
16:49Adil Singh Boparoy,
16:50we had Saifuddin Sars.
16:52I spoke to Salman Sars.
16:53His son was shot a while ago.
16:55And Salman Sars says
16:56that he shouldn't give interviews
16:59distancing himself from Salman Sars
17:01because he's a spokesperson of the party,
17:03distancing the party.
17:04Where is a full party with
17:06at these point of times?
17:08We know these are highly sensitive times.
17:10You have one leader like Saifuddin Sars.
17:12You have another serving Congress,
17:14MLA,
17:15who actually seems to suggest
17:16that there was no religious profiling,
17:18completely gaslighting
17:19all the survivors and victims
17:21who have clearly come out
17:22and said that they were religiously profiled.
17:24The fact is,
17:25it was a communal attack,
17:28Adil.
17:28We can choose to unite as Indians,
17:30but to not accept that it happened
17:32and then say that we distance ourselves,
17:35the damage is already done.
17:38Well, Preeti,
17:39as far as the Congress party is concerned,
17:41the CWC,
17:43which is the apex body of the Congress party,
17:45has made a resounding statement
17:47where we have criticized
17:49and castigated this terror attack.
17:51And we stand shoulder to shoulder
17:53with the victims and our armed forces.
17:56Now, if somebody is retired from politics
17:58and he makes a statement,
18:00in my opinion,
18:01we should not give credence to that statement.
18:03Having said this,
18:05I think the larger issue,
18:06which is something
18:06which you had flagged
18:07in your presentation,
18:09that whether the real issues
18:11are getting eclipsed or not,
18:12I would like to speak on those issues.
18:14This unfortunate incident
18:16takes place on the 22nd of April.
18:20We're on the 28th of April.
18:23These four monsters,
18:25these four terrorists
18:27are still at large.
18:29I think that is a disturbing issue.
18:31And that is something
18:32which even the victims
18:33are seeking to know.
18:34The victims had also lamented
18:36that for almost 45 minutes,
18:38there were no first respondents
18:40after this attack.
18:42So these are the more material issues.
18:44The monumental security
18:46and intelligence lapses.
18:48The need for fixing accountability.
18:51The fact of the matter
18:52is police today
18:53under the Union territory
18:54of GNK falls
18:55under the Union Home Ministry.
18:57So these are all diversionary tactics.
18:59I do understand your drift.
19:01But today,
19:02a moment has come
19:03in our country's trajectory
19:05where the opposition,
19:07the government,
19:08the security forces,
19:10the victims
19:10and 1.4 billion Indians
19:12are yearning for justice.
19:15We want justice to be done,
19:17not only to be done,
19:18but also to be seen to be done.
19:20So let's focus on the real issues.
19:22We stand with the government
19:23in the all party meeting.
19:25We made our position very clear.
19:26Our Congress President,
19:28our former Congress President
19:29and leader of opposition
19:30has clarified his position.
19:33So therefore,
19:33I as an official spokesperson
19:35stand with that position.
19:36Now, if somebody makes a statement
19:38sitting in some casbah
19:39of this country,
19:40somebody who's retired from politics,
19:42I don't believe
19:43that that should be national news.
19:44Mr. Bhopar,
19:45I'm going to circle back to you
19:46because it's all well and easy
19:47and safe to say
19:48that these are all retired hands
19:49and if they make
19:51an insensitive statement
19:53sitting somewhere,
19:54the party really cannot
19:55do anything about it.
19:56But the fact is,
19:56you have serving MLAs
19:57who represent the party
19:59in Maharashtra,
20:00in the state of Karnataka,
20:02who've practically said the same,
20:03something I would think
20:04is a little more menacing
20:05than what Mr. Sauss says,
20:07where you have two MLAs
20:08who are currently serving,
20:09have gone on record to state
20:10that there was no
20:11communal profiling.
20:12You're completely gaslighting
20:13what the victims
20:14and the survivors went through
20:15and giving fodder to the BJP.
20:18So I'm going to circle back to you
20:19and I'm going to ask you
20:19that question.
20:20I want to cut across now
20:21to the BJP spokesperson,
20:23Sanju Varma,
20:23who's with me.
20:24Sanju Varma,
20:24it would have all been
20:25well and good
20:26because there have been
20:26press conferences
20:27after press conference
20:28from the Bharatiya Janta party
20:29attacking the Congress
20:30and you should.
20:31But you can do that
20:32when it's not a little rich
20:34coming in from you.
20:35You have a statement by,
20:36you know,
20:37you have a Salman Sauss
20:38who might be retired,
20:38you have two MLAs
20:39who are serving,
20:40but you have a union minister,
20:41Sanju Varma,
20:42in the form of Piyush Goel,
20:44who's actually gone on record
20:45to say 140 crore Indians
20:47do not feel patriotic
20:48and that's why
20:49these incidents keep happening.
20:50Pray tell me,
20:51who are these 140 crore Indians
20:52he's speaking of
20:53because we all really
20:54want to know.
20:56Piti,
20:56first and foremost,
20:57I think there was a pop-up
20:58from your end.
20:59It's not Salman Sauss
21:00who's retired,
21:01it is Salman Sauss' father.
21:03I interviewed Salman Sauss.
21:04Salman Sauss.
21:04You're right.
21:06I could have got it wrong.
21:06Go ahead, ma'am.
21:08Now, let me come to the
21:09moot point, Preeti.
21:10First and foremost,
21:11let me make one thing
21:12very, very, very clear.
21:14I will call out
21:16the bluff
21:17of radical Islamist terror
21:19for what it is.
21:20And if there are people
21:22who are willing to
21:23shove the uncomfortable truth
21:24under the carpet,
21:26too bad for them.
21:27For too long
21:28have we
21:28moly-cordained
21:29these radical Islamist
21:31elements
21:32under the guard
21:32of pseudo-secularism
21:34parah bahat ho gaia.
21:36Enough is enough.
21:37I repeat,
21:38ab vakt paa gaya hai,
21:39inhe name
21:40aur shame kiya jaye.
21:41And I'll tell you what,
21:43I will come to
21:43what Pius Goyal said.
21:44I'm not going to
21:45deflect your
21:46pertinent question.
21:48But let's get one thing
21:49very clear.
21:50Robert Varda,
21:51he's not just a random
21:53relative of the Gandhis.
21:54He's the brother-in-law
21:55of Rahul Gandhi,
21:57the Karta-Bharta
21:57of the party.
21:58And he said,
21:59Muslims are made
22:00to feel insecure.
22:01Is liye pehelgaum
22:02terror attack hua.
22:03Vijay Vardyati var,
22:05who was the LOP
22:05of the Maharashtra Assembly
22:06and is still a sitting
22:08employee of the Congress.
22:09Last year,
22:10he said,
22:10Hemant Karkar
22:11was not killed
22:12by Ajmal Qasad.
22:13Ye toh BJP ki saajish hai.
22:14And he's again
22:15given a clean chip
22:16to Pakistan today.
22:18BKR Hari Masas,
22:19a sitting MLC
22:19of the Congress
22:20party in Karnataka
22:21says,
22:22Pakistan ki kya galki hai?
22:23BJP Pakistan,
22:25Pakistan ko kyun
22:26kasoorwaar kehra rahi hai?
22:27And then you have
22:28Sidhar Amaiyah.
22:29He said,
22:30why goes to war
22:32with Pakistan?
22:33Why is BJP
22:34some desperate
22:35to get into war
22:36with Pakistan?
22:37And then
22:38blabber mouth,
22:39loud mouth,
22:39Manishankar Ayaar
22:40has the audacity
22:42to say
22:42Pahegam terror
22:43attack happened
22:44because of
22:45unresolved questions
22:46pertaining
22:46to the partition
22:48way back in 1947.
22:50And amidst all this,
22:52Rahul Gandhi
22:53very conveniently
22:54says,
22:55I have opened
22:56the door of
22:56the government
22:57and the
22:58all-party meeting
22:59supported
23:00BJP...
23:00Man, your time is up.
23:01I'm going to come back to you.
23:03And I will ask you that question again.
23:04Because, you know,
23:05let me get on to television cliches.
23:07The nation really wants to know
23:08who are these 140 crore.
23:09It's not 1 crore,
23:11it's not 2 crore,
23:12it's 140 crore Indians
23:13who are
23:14not nationalistic,
23:16who are not patriotic.
23:18And that is why
23:18these attacks are happening.
23:20Who are they?
23:21But I want to cut across
23:22back to Adil Singh Boparoy.
23:24And Mr. Boparoy,
23:25let me come back
23:25to the question.
23:26The fact is,
23:27a Saifuddin source
23:28can be explained.
23:30He's 90 years old,
23:31he's retired,
23:32his son himself said
23:33that he should not
23:34give interviews.
23:35You know,
23:35it's damaging,
23:36but it can be explained.
23:37What action has been
23:38taken against
23:39to serving MLA, sir,
23:40who have gone ahead
23:40and made
23:41the most incidory statements?
23:45And that is why
23:46you speak of things
23:46getting eclipsed,
23:47Mr. Boparoy.
23:48I'm sorry,
23:48I'm coming in.
23:49And yes,
23:50bigger questions
23:51that should be answered
23:52are getting eclipsed.
23:53But I would reckon
23:54both sides of the
23:54political divide,
23:55including you,
23:56are to be blamed
23:57for that, sir.
23:58Priti,
23:59to be fair,
24:00I haven't heard
24:01the statements
24:02by the MLA's
24:03as indicated by you,
24:04point number one.
24:05Point number two,
24:06if they've taken
24:07a contrary position
24:08to the CWC resolution,
24:10I reject any such statement.
24:12But that is not
24:13the moot point today.
24:14The moot point is
24:16that there are
24:16several issues
24:17which the BJP
24:18cannot
24:19circassiously
24:20evade.
24:21Number one,
24:22the victims say
24:23there were no
24:23first responders
24:24for 45 minutes.
24:26Precious lives
24:27could have been saved.
24:28Number two,
24:29it's been six days
24:30since this ghastly incident.
24:32These four terrorists
24:33are still at large.
24:34Number three,
24:35a monumental security
24:37and an intelligence lapse.
24:39Number four,
24:39how can the Union Home Ministry
24:41wash his hands off?
24:43So instead of
24:44the BJP spokesperson
24:45distorting statements
24:47made by other persons
24:49associated with
24:50the Congress Party
24:51or being former leaders,
24:52I think it is important
24:54that they must take
24:55the bull by the horns
24:56and face this issue
24:58head on.
24:59You have failed.
25:00You have failed.
25:01There are no two ways
25:02about it.
25:03Notwithstanding that,
25:04for the sake of the country
25:06and for the sake
25:07of the victims,
25:08we are standing
25:08with the government
25:09of the day
25:10so that a befitting response
25:11can be given
25:13to the terror infrastructure
25:15so that this terror industry
25:16can be brought down
25:17to its knees.
25:19Please focus on governance.
25:21Do not focus on rhetoric.
25:23The irony is
25:24that the BJP spokesperson
25:25has a penchant
25:26for rhetoric and dietright
25:28and that is what
25:29should be shunned
25:31at this stage.
25:32We stand with the government.
25:34Please take concrete action.
25:36Take concrete action
25:37so that nobody tomorrow
25:39can dare to repeat
25:40this incident.
25:41And finally,
25:42Preeti,
25:43the BJP
25:44in their zeal
25:46and overenthusiasm
25:47perhaps was wrong
25:49in sounding the bugle
25:52of normalcy in JNK.
25:56Clearly,
25:56there is no normalcy
25:58in JNK.
25:59So let's acknowledge
26:00facts as they stand.
26:02I'll come back to you,
26:03Mr. Boparoy.
26:03And yes,
26:04you know,
26:04hopefully larger issues
26:06will be addressed
26:06sooner than later.
26:07But like I said,
26:09empathy,
26:10timing is not
26:12the strongest suits
26:13when it comes to
26:13politics or politicians.
26:15And Sanju Verma,
26:15I will ask you
26:16that question again
26:17because you say
26:17you don't like
26:18beating around the bush.
26:19So,
26:19pray please do tell us.
26:21140 crore Indians
26:22are unpatriotic.
26:25Who are they?
26:26Who was being
26:26referred to, ma'am?
26:29You know,
26:29Preeti,
26:30first and foremost,
26:31let me make one thing
26:32very, very clear.
26:33You know,
26:33here the Congress
26:34spokesperson keep saying
26:35the BJP spokesperson
26:37is engaging in rhetoric.
26:39The BJP spokesperson
26:40is engaging in dietric.
26:42Pahli baad toh ye.
26:43I'm the national
26:44spokesperson
26:44of the world's largest party.
26:46I don't need
26:47certificates on what to say,
26:49how to say,
26:49and when to say
26:50from the spokesperson
26:51of a party
26:52that has lost
26:53three loksaba elections
26:54in a row.
26:55Isliya shans ho jaayye,
26:57aapke bhaashan ki
26:57zarurat nahi hai.
26:59Now,
26:59coming to Piti's question.
27:01I will give you some data
27:02which is self-explanatory
27:04and I will answer
27:04your question
27:05in as many words.
27:07Look at this.
27:09Punjab has a border
27:11of 547 kilometers
27:13with Pakistan,
27:14Preeti.
27:16Gujarat has a border
27:17of 512 kilometers
27:19that it shares
27:19with Pakistan.
27:21Rajasthan
27:22has 1035,
27:24a little over
27:251,000 kilometers
27:25that it shares
27:26as borders
27:27with Pakistan.
27:28And Jammu Kashmir
27:29shares 1216,
27:311,216 kilometers
27:34with Pakistan
27:36as border.
27:37But,
27:37Priti tell me,
27:38forget in the last
27:3910 or 11 years,
27:41in the last
27:4270 plus years
27:43of post-independent
27:45India,
27:46aisa kyi ho ta hai,
27:47ki every cross-border
27:49terror attack
27:50emanates
27:51from Jammu Kashmir.
27:53It is because
27:54you have
27:54sleeper cells there,
27:56you have
27:56OGWs there,
27:58you have
27:59the arm
27:59jalka
28:00and not blaming
28:00Adil Kashmiri.
28:0299% of them
28:03are patriotic,
28:04but that 1%
28:05did assist
28:06the Pehlgaam
28:08corporate traitors
28:08and very quickly,
28:10your audience
28:10needs to hear this.
28:11Mohamed Adil Rahman,
28:13Mohamed Asif Ahmed,
28:14Mohamed Ashan Ahmed,
28:16Mohamed Harish,
28:17Mohamed Ameer Nazir,
28:19Mohamed Ahmed Bhatt,
28:20Mohamed Asif Ahmed,
28:21Mohamed Masir Ahmed,
28:23Mohamed Shahid Ahmed Kuteh,
28:24Mohamed Amir Ahmed Bhatt,
28:26Mohamed Adnan Safi,
28:27Mohamed Zubair,
28:29Mohamed Haroon Rashid,
28:30Mohamed Zakir Ahmed Bhatt.
28:32These are 15 people
28:33from Rashid
28:34who have
28:35terrorists.
28:36All right.
28:37Okay.
28:37You know,
28:38I know,
28:38okay,
28:38so Sanju Varma,
28:39you've given a full list
28:40of Muslim names
28:42who were part
28:43of the terror attack.
28:44I could give you
28:44a bigger list today
28:45who were Muslims
28:47and who only went down
28:48and helped.
28:50Sorry, ma'am,
28:50make your point.
28:51What do you say?
28:51An Islamist terror.
28:52Well,
28:53I will all...
28:53Ma'am,
28:54you're trying to make a point
28:55and I'm also trying
28:56to make a point,
28:57so allow me.
28:58I can give you
28:58a bigger list.
28:59Some of them
29:00who died helping tourists
29:01were Muslims.
29:02Other Muslim names
29:03who actually helped people
29:05dealing with terror.
29:07So,
29:07no, no, no.
29:08Ma'am,
29:08it's a...
29:08The fact is,
29:10one would like to...
29:11People who came
29:11about Muslims
29:12say yes or no,
29:13PTT.
29:13Sorry?
29:14For a change,
29:15be honest.
29:15Sorry?
29:15Did the people
29:16who gunbound those
29:18hackers...
29:18Of course,
29:18they were Muslims,
29:19at least for what
29:20we know they are.
29:22Of what the names
29:23that are being spoken
29:23of the four,
29:25they are Muslims,
29:26yes.
29:27But that doesn't make...
29:28But,
29:28but,
29:29but,
29:29but,
29:29but can we...
29:31Of course,
29:32it was...
29:32You know,
29:32it's not a screaming
29:34bar between you and I.
29:35Number one,
29:35this was a communally charged,
29:37this was a communally charged
29:39terror attacks.
29:40In all probability,
29:41there were Muslims
29:42behind it.
29:43But,
29:43but the sad part is
29:45we don't respond,
29:46we don't respond
29:47as Hindus,
29:48we should respond
29:49as Indians,
29:50which we are not.
29:52And that is what today
29:53your party
29:53is being questioned for.
29:54I want to give
29:55the last two final minutes
29:56to both our...
29:57Madam,
29:58you do not
29:59want to listen to the truth.
30:01Madam,
30:01you don't allow anyone
30:02to talk.
30:02So,
30:03let's not get into that.
30:04Okay,
30:04it's not an argument.
30:05I'm going to put your
30:06fader down,
30:06ma'am,
30:06it's not an argument.
30:08I'm going to cut across
30:08back to Adil Singh Boparoy,
30:10two minutes,
30:10Adil,
30:11that you get,
30:12because yes,
30:12there are credible issues
30:13that need to be spoken of,
30:15but today this debate
30:15is really not about
30:16credible issues,
30:17it's actually speaking
30:18of the politics
30:18that is speaking around.
30:20Leave alone
30:21with what has just happened
30:22in terms of the leaders
30:23who have spoken
30:25in the most insensitive manner
30:27and we have detailed
30:28the names.
30:29Those who have actually
30:29spoken in favor,
30:31you have the likes
30:32of a Shashi Tharoor
30:33Adil Singh Boparoy
30:34who comes out and says,
30:35that the agencies
30:36are doing a good job
30:38in this country,
30:38we only speak
30:39of their failure,
30:40we don't actually recount
30:41the number of terror
30:43attacks that they've
30:44thwarted
30:45and, you know,
30:46you give them a bad name
30:47on that account.
30:48What happens,
30:49Adil Singh Boparoy?
30:50Senior leaders
30:50from the Congress
30:51come out and actually say,
30:52why are you standing
30:53on the LOC?
30:54Cross on to the BJP.
30:57Preeti,
30:57there is no room
30:58for politics today.
31:01And I would urge
31:01the BJP spokesperson
31:02to shun politics.
31:04This is a moment
31:05of national mourning
31:06and this is a moment
31:07of national solidarity.
31:08Even at the
31:10all-party meeting,
31:11our leaders
31:12emphasized on one point
31:14that please
31:15do not use
31:16this terrible incident
31:17to advance
31:18your political interests,
31:20number one.
31:21And number two,
31:22please do not use
31:23this incident
31:24to sharpen
31:24fault lines
31:26in society.
31:27Because if you
31:28use this incident
31:29to sharpen fault lines,
31:30you are doing
31:31exactly what
31:32Pakistan wants.
31:34Pakistan wants
31:35the polity
31:36to be polarized
31:36and you by resorting
31:38to this kind of rhetoric,
31:40you are aiding
31:41that sharpening
31:42of political fault lines
31:43and sharpening
31:44of religious fault lines.
31:46So therefore,
31:47I urge the BJP spokesperson
31:49to restrain herself
31:50from doing this.
31:51Number three,
31:53let's be very,
31:54very clear.
31:55Today,
31:56the nation yearns
31:56for an answer.
31:58The nation
31:58yearns for a befitting answer.
32:01And at the same time,
32:02the BJP,
32:03by throwing mud
32:04at the opposition,
32:05cannot run away
32:06from the fact
32:07that there has been
32:08a monumental
32:09intelligence
32:11and security failure.
32:13There was not
32:13a single picket.
32:15There was not
32:15a single picket
32:17at the site
32:18of the terror incident.
32:19Can the BJP
32:20explain why
32:21is that so?
32:23So therefore,
32:24again,
32:24I don't want to join
32:25this verbal duel.
32:27This is not a moment
32:27to enter into
32:29this tutu mehmeh
32:30like the BJP
32:31spokesperson.
32:32This is a moment
32:33where 1.4 billion
32:35people,
32:36and this 1.4 billion
32:37people does not
32:38need a patriotism
32:40certificate
32:41from Ms. Sanju Verma.
32:42Let me make this
32:43point very clear.
32:45Citizens do not
32:46need a patriotic
32:47certificate
32:47from you, ma'am.
32:50We are 1.4 billion
32:51people.
32:52We are Indians first.
32:54And we will give
32:55a resounding answer
32:56to the adversary
32:57in our capacity
32:58as Indians.
32:59Your time is over.
33:00You still haven't
33:00addressed the main
33:01question.
33:01What is it that
33:02the Congress is
33:02doing to shut
33:03the motor mouths
33:04in the Congress?
33:04But let me cut
33:05across to Sanju Verma.
33:06Sanju Verma,
33:07taking off from
33:07the question I
33:09asked you earlier.
33:10You know,
33:11jingoisting
33:11sabre-rattling
33:12will not solve
33:13the issue, ma'am.
33:14You can continue
33:15to blame Muslims,
33:16but maybe one
33:17should rise above
33:17bigotry.
33:19You know,
33:20Preeti,
33:20first and foremost,
33:21let me make it
33:21very clear.
33:22If you are failing
33:23to call out
33:24radical Islamist terror,
33:25then it is you
33:26who should be
33:27accused of bigotry.
33:28If I am calling
33:29out the perpetrators
33:30for who they are
33:30and you think
33:31I am engaging
33:32in bigotry,
33:33then all I can say
33:34is please go
33:35read the Oxford
33:36Dictionary and find
33:36out the exact
33:37meaning of bigotry.
33:38But this is not
33:39about you,
33:39Preeti Chaudhary,
33:40neither it is
33:41about Sanju Verma.
33:42And let me tell
33:42you, who needs
33:43a certificate
33:44in patriotism?
33:45Before that,
33:46will this government
33:47be held to
33:49accountability?
33:49Yes.
33:50Will the perpetrators
33:51be finished off
33:52once and for all?
33:53Yes.
33:54Will cross-border
33:55infiltration
33:56be dealt
33:56with a heavy
33:57hand?
33:57Yes.
33:58Will we see
33:59a repeat
33:59of Balaamort
34:00strike in 2019
34:01when we avenged?
34:03Kulwama?
34:03Yes.
34:04Will we see
34:04a repeat
34:05of 2016
34:06surgical strike
34:07when we avenged?
34:08Yes.
34:09Because today,
34:09Prime Minister
34:10is Narendra Modi
34:11is Narendra Modi
34:11who says,
34:12and tells,
34:13that this is
34:14Manmohan Singh
34:14or Sonia Gandhi
34:15kitchen cabinet
34:16of Manmohan Singh
34:17or Sonia Gandhi's
34:18kitchen cabinet
34:19when 2611-17
34:19happened.
34:20Rahul Gandhi
34:21was popping
34:22at Chhatarpur
34:23farms
34:23attending the
34:25wedding festivities
34:26of Satish Sharma's
34:27son.
34:28And this is not
34:292008 when Sonia Gandhi
34:31shed copious tears
34:32for the perpetrators
34:33of Batla House
34:34encounter, namely
34:35Indian
34:36Mujandini.
34:37This is Narendra Modi
34:38of the government.
34:39That's why
34:39what has happened
34:41is that
34:41the change
34:41of the government
34:42will be given
34:42and given
34:43the answer.
34:44But yes.
34:45Let me tell
34:45the Congress
34:46spokesperson this.
34:47Does Robert
34:48Vajra need
34:49a certificate
34:49in patriotism?
34:52Of course,
34:53yes.
34:53Does Sidhar
34:54Mayah need
34:55a certificate
34:55in patriotism?
34:57Of course,
34:57yes.
34:58Does Vijay
34:59Vajatiwar
34:59need a certificate
35:00in patriotism?
35:01Of course,
35:02yes.
35:03Does Manish
35:03Ankar
35:03Ayer need
35:04a certificate
35:04in patriotism?
35:05Of course,
35:06yes.
35:07Does Congress
35:07MLC
35:08BK Hari Prasad
35:09need a certificate?
35:10Of course,
35:11yes.
35:11More importantly,
35:13does Rahul Gandhi
35:14need a certificate
35:15in patriotism?
35:16Yes.
35:17We call it
35:18in the world
35:19that I am
35:19opening the
35:20shop of
35:21love.
35:22But this man
35:23does not have
35:24the guts to
35:24come out.
35:24That's all the
35:25time that we
35:25have for now.
35:26I appreciate
35:26both the BJP
35:28spokesperson and
35:28the Congress
35:29spokesperson for
35:29joining us.
35:30And I would
35:30reckon,
35:31cutting across
35:31political lines,
35:33one thing that
35:34our politicians
35:35do need a
35:35certificate on
35:36and that is
35:36empathy.
35:37And that could
35:37be coming in
35:38from the Congress
35:38or the BJP.
35:40The fact is,
35:41the attack was
35:42communal.
35:43We chose to
35:44communalize it
35:45and its aftermath
35:46will unite us
35:46Indians.
35:47The messaging
35:47is right on the
35:48television screens
35:49of that, sadly.
35:49So.
35:50NCRT's controversial
35:52cuts.
35:54Selective or
35:55objective revision.
35:57Rao over deleted
35:58syllabus reignites.
36:02Big fat Rao over
36:03thinning textbooks.
36:06All references to
36:07Mughals purged
36:08from seventh class
36:09textbooks.
36:11While chapters on
36:12Mahakumb and
36:13Indian dynasties
36:14included.
36:15included also
36:18chapters on
36:19government initiative
36:20like Beti Bachao.
36:23While NCRT had
36:25previously trimmed
36:25sections on the
36:27Mughal and Delhi
36:28sultanate,
36:29including detailed
36:30account of dynasties
36:31like Tughlaqs,
36:34Khiljis,
36:35Mamluks and
36:36Lodhis,
36:37and a two-page
36:37table on Mughal
36:38emperor's achievements.
36:40As part of its
36:43syllabus rationalization,
36:45citing trimming
36:46syllabus due to
36:48COVID-19 pandemic.
36:50However, the new
36:51textbooks have now
36:52removed all references
36:54to them entirely.
36:56And we are in no
36:57pandemic anymore.
37:00The politics of
37:01textbook revision.
37:03Young minds to be
37:05taught balanced
37:06history.
37:07Top focus and to the
37:08point this evening.
37:10All right, so
37:11what's really
37:12happened is that
37:13the NCRT has
37:14removed all
37:15references, mind
37:16you, all
37:16references to
37:17Mughals from the
37:18seventh standard
37:20textbooks.
37:21Now, multiple
37:22questions are being
37:23raised at the
37:23back of that.
37:25And let's ask
37:26those questions
37:26this evening.
37:28Now, NCRT's
37:29Mughal Cups,
37:30subjective or
37:31objective revision?
37:32I'll take you back.
37:33I'll hark you back
37:34at the time of the
37:35pandemic.
37:35At that point of
37:36time, the NCRT
37:38had taken away a
37:39bit of the
37:40syllabus of
37:41various standards
37:42then, you know,
37:43be it the seventh
37:44or even the ninth
37:45class.
37:45And they had made
37:46a lot of cuts
37:47where Mughal history
37:48was concerned.
37:48At that point of
37:49time, they had
37:49said that we are
37:50making these cuts
37:51because we need to
37:53reduce the syllabus
37:54of students because
37:55they would be able to
37:56study it during the
37:57times of COVID.
37:58This time around,
37:59they have deleted
38:00all references to
38:01Mughals and we are
38:02in no pandemic.
38:02The other question
38:03that we asked,
38:04should young minds
38:06be taught balanced
38:09history?
38:10You know, because
38:10that seemingly is one
38:11argument that we need
38:12to balance the history
38:13in favor of what is
38:15our heritage and we
38:17need to put that in.
38:19But should that be
38:20the aim of teaching
38:22history to young minds?
38:24And the last and final
38:25question we ask,
38:27will omitting chapters
38:29omit how history
38:31unfolded?
38:32And I would reckon
38:33that is the biggest
38:34question.
38:35You can take Mughals
38:36out of textbooks
38:37where it comes down
38:38to students here
38:39of the seventh class
38:40but can you actually
38:41take out Mughals
38:42and their role
38:43in India's history?
38:46I am going to try
38:47and get two points
38:48of views on that.
38:49Dr. Ruchika Sharma,
38:50historian, academic,
38:51specializing in medieval
38:52Indian history,
38:53particularly Mughal
38:54history.
38:55She has written books
38:55on it.
38:56I also have Dr.
38:57Prane Agarwal
38:58who is an educationist.
39:00I want to cut across
39:01to Dr. Ruchika Sharma
39:04first.
39:04Dr. Ruchika Sharma,
39:05the seventh class
39:07students now
39:08will have absolutely
39:10no knowledge
39:11on what
39:12or who Mughals
39:13were because
39:14at least what we have
39:15been given to believe
39:16with the latest
39:17revision,
39:18which the NCRP
39:19says is very
39:19objective revision,
39:21you know,
39:21young minds need
39:22to know more
39:23about our own
39:24history,
39:24our Indian
39:25dynasties
39:26and less about
39:27Mughals.
39:28So all references
39:29to Mughals
39:30have been taken
39:30away where
39:31seventh class
39:31is concerned.
39:32The argument
39:33is if,
39:34you know,
39:34kids want to
39:35study history
39:36later on,
39:36they can take
39:37it in,
39:37you know,
39:37their higher
39:38grades and
39:38actually deep
39:39dive into
39:40what India's
39:41history is.
39:41But in the
39:42formative years,
39:43kids need to
39:43learn about
39:44their own
39:44culture and
39:45their own
39:45leaders and
39:46their own
39:47kings and
39:48their own
39:49dynasties.
39:49Well,
39:52I think
39:52it's a very
39:53dishonest
39:54and historical
39:55argument to
39:55make,
39:55because somehow
39:56Mughals and
39:57Delhi Sultanates
39:57do not form
39:58the Indian
39:58culture.
40:00In fact,
40:01it's actually
40:01very imperative
40:02that the kids
40:03know about
40:04Mughals,
40:04especially because
40:05they have
40:05300 years of
40:06history,
40:07history which
40:07is very close
40:08to us in
40:09time,
40:10rather than
40:11to the history
40:11of the Cholas
40:12and Shindas,
40:13who are in
40:13time farther
40:14away.
40:16Secondly,
40:16if you look
40:16at, you know,
40:17what we eat
40:18today,
40:18what we wear
40:19today,
40:19how we
40:20speak for
40:21most of
40:21North India,
40:22for example,
40:23is everything
40:24of that had
40:26genesis under
40:27the Mughal
40:27rule.
40:28So the
40:28language that
40:28we speak
40:29today,
40:29called Hindi
40:30Urtu,
40:30came from
40:31Zabani
40:31Hindiri,
40:32which,
40:33you know,
40:33started during
40:34the Mughal
40:35rule.
40:36The clothes
40:37that we wear
40:38today,
40:38say,
40:38for example,
40:39the Kuita,
40:39for example,
40:40the Churi
40:40bar,
40:41right,
40:41the very
40:42common
40:42clothes,
40:43the
40:43Lehenga
40:44Choli,
40:44all of
40:45this,
40:45when is
40:46it coming?
40:46It's
40:46coming under
40:47the Mughal
40:47rule,
40:48right?
40:48The food
40:49that we
40:50eat today,
40:50for example,
40:50this very
40:51common thing
40:51that a lot
40:52of Indian
40:52homes have,
40:53which is
40:54called a
40:54Zidu
40:54Piazza,
40:55which is
40:55where you
40:55first put
40:56piyaz in
40:56the Tadaka
40:56and then
40:57you put
40:57piyaz over
40:58it,
40:59that again
41:00comes with
41:00the Mughal
41:00like a
41:01view,
41:01right?
41:02So you
41:02cannot say
41:03that the
41:03Mughals
41:03are not
41:04related to
41:05the Indian
41:05culture.
41:07And it's
41:07a very
41:07dishonest
41:08and unfair
41:08argument to
41:09make,
41:09considering
41:10most of
41:11the sites
41:11in India
41:12today that
41:13give the
41:14maximum amount
41:14of money
41:15to the
41:15Indian
41:15government
41:16with tourism
41:16are actually
41:18building,
41:18which is
41:18built by
41:19the Mughals.
41:20So Mughals
41:21have a huge
41:22role to play
41:23in our
41:24passage and
41:25therefore
41:25removing them
41:26from the
41:27path is
41:28absolutely
41:28unfair to
41:31the Mughal
41:31history,
41:31but more
41:32than that
41:32unfair to
41:33the children
41:33who really
41:34need to
41:34know where
41:35does a lot
41:35of their
41:35culture come
41:36from,
41:36where does
41:37the language
41:37of the
41:37food,
41:38the clothes
41:38they wear,
41:39the food
41:40that they eat
41:41come from,
41:42right?
41:42The other
41:43important thing
41:44it's actually
41:45very sad
41:46that usually
41:47the way
41:48the syllabus
41:48was divided
41:49was in
41:49class 6
41:50you would
41:50have
41:50quote-unquote
41:51ancient India,
41:52in class 7
41:53you would
41:53have
41:53quote-unquote
41:54medieval India,
41:55and in class 8
41:55you would
41:56have
41:56quote-unquote
41:56modern India.
41:57Now in
41:58class 7
41:58you have
41:59retained
42:01medieval India,
42:02but you've
42:02actually taken
42:03out 600-700
42:04years of medieval
42:05India out of
42:06that,
42:06which is the
42:07Beli Sipan,
42:08right?
42:08For example,
42:09allowing Khalji's
42:10massive contribution
42:11in thwarting
42:127 Mongol
42:14invasions,
42:15not one,
42:16not two,
42:16that man
42:17thwarted 7
42:18Mongol invasions.
42:19Had he not
42:19done that,
42:20the entire
42:20trajectory of
42:21Indian history
42:22could have
42:22been completely
42:22changed.
42:23So removing
42:24that man
42:25from the
42:267th class
42:26textbook is
42:27actually very
42:28unfair to
42:29Indian history,
42:30right?
42:30So I think
42:31the corollary of
42:33the two is
42:33basically this
42:34idea that
42:35somehow they
42:36are foreign
42:36and therefore
42:37they don't
42:37need to be
42:39included,
42:39is actually
42:40doing injustice
42:42in the
42:42history because
42:43they are
42:43at the end
42:44of the day
42:44the Mughals
42:45and Delhi
42:45Suitans
42:46collectively put
42:47together
42:47thousand years
42:48of Indian
42:49history.
42:49You cannot
42:50remove thousand
42:50years of
42:51Indian
42:51history from
42:52class 7
42:53textbooks.
42:53I would also
42:54like to mention
42:55since there is
42:56a lot of
42:57gruha made
42:57about Mughals
42:58and only Mughals
42:59can be needed
43:00and only Delhi
43:00Suitans
43:01can be needed.
43:02There are
43:02plenty of other
43:02injustice
43:03happening in
43:03the class 7
43:04textbooks as
43:04well.
43:05They've
43:05removed,
43:06they've
43:06tried to
43:07the Khamajati
43:08system as
43:09something that
43:10takes
43:11rigidity
43:12under the
43:13English
43:14and initially
43:15comes across
43:16only to
43:17give societal
43:18stability.
43:19Now I think
43:19that erases
43:20the struggle
43:21of the Dalit.
43:22We have
43:22around
43:232500 to
43:243000
43:24years of history.
43:25allow me to
43:26come back to
43:27you.
43:27I want to
43:27introduce
43:27other guests
43:28allow me to
43:28come back
43:29to you and
43:29I want to
43:29bring in
43:30Dr.
43:30Pranay Agarwal
43:31because what
43:31Dr.
43:32Sharma just
43:33touched on
43:35is it's not
43:36just Mughal
43:37history viewers.
43:37There are
43:38chapters of
43:38protest in
43:39India that
43:40have been
43:40taken out.
43:41So I would
43:41think young
43:42kids would
43:42not even
43:42know what
43:43the Chipco
43:44movement was
43:44all about
43:45because most
43:45chapters when
43:46it comes down
43:46to protest
43:47have also been
43:47removed along
43:48with Mughal
43:48history.
43:49So I want
43:50to go to
43:50Dr.
43:51Pranay Agarwal
43:51who is
43:52actually of
43:52the opinion
43:53that it's
43:53a great
43:53thing.
43:54But Dr.
43:55Agarwal away
43:55from the
43:56rhetoric of
43:56it all that
43:57oh we need
43:58to focus on
43:59Indian
43:59dynasties.
44:00Why did
44:01we over
44:01amplify the
44:02Mughals in
44:03our culture?
44:04The fact
44:04Dr.
44:04Agarwal I'm
44:05sure you're
44:05an educationist
44:06and you know
44:07is that the
44:08Mughals did
44:08play a huge
44:09role where
44:09medieval history
44:10is concerned.
44:11What one
44:11really fails
44:12to understand
44:13is how
44:14will children
44:14learn about
44:15medieval history
44:16because that
44:17is what the
44:17seventh standard
44:18was supposedly
44:19the subject
44:19of medieval
44:20history where
44:21you're not
44:21even talking
44:22to them
44:22about the
44:23Mughals?
44:26Priti I'll
44:27begin with
44:27the observation
44:28here with the
44:29cliche that
44:30education makes
44:31a man.
44:32So whatever I
44:32am today in
44:33large measure
44:34is due to my
44:35education and
44:35I think I
44:36speak for each
44:37one of us
44:38when I say
44:38that.
44:39Coming
44:40specifically to
44:41the changes
44:42in the NCRT
44:43textbooks I
44:44would say it
44:44is a very
44:45welcome development
44:46but it is
44:47the way I
44:48see it it is
44:49too little
44:49too late.
44:50In fact
44:51much more
44:51needs to be
44:52done.
44:53Our history
44:54textbooks they
44:54are infamously
44:55distorted and
44:56partial I
44:56would say.
44:58So you
44:58know while
44:59it's a glad
45:00departure from
45:00the days of
45:01Prakash
45:02Javadikar who
45:03in 2018 had
45:04said I have
45:04not changed
45:05even a comma
45:05as the
45:06education
45:06minister.
45:07But I
45:08hope that
45:08this time
45:09these changes
45:09are taken
45:10to its
45:10logical
45:11conclusion.
45:12You see
45:12there are
45:13many
45:13conspicuous
45:14omissions in
45:15our history
45:16textbooks
45:16particularly.
45:17So I
45:18hope the
45:18project of
45:19broadening and
45:20making Indian
45:21history more
45:21inclusive and
45:22should I say
45:23more complete
45:24is done till
45:24the end.
45:25For example
45:26you know much
45:27of Indian
45:28history is
45:28Delhi-centric
45:30right so we
45:31are taught in
45:32great detail
45:33about even
45:34obscure Delhi
45:35based dynasties
45:37like the
45:37Lodhis but
45:39we know very
45:39little from
45:40our official
45:41you know the
45:42history we are
45:42taught about
45:43the Vijayanagar
45:44empire or the
45:45Satvahanas or
45:46the Ahoms of
45:46Assam.
45:47Right these
45:48very great
45:49dynasties they
45:49are literally
45:50reduced to a
45:51footnote in
45:51our history
45:51textbooks.
45:53Similarly you
45:53see you know
45:54because of the
45:54Delhi emphasis
45:56land-based
45:57invasions we
45:58know a lot
45:59about but
46:00maritime history
46:00of India is
46:01should I say
46:02somewhat
46:03downplayed and
46:04with our long
46:04coastline our
46:05engagement with
46:06the rest of
46:06the world has
46:07been through for
46:09example with
46:09Southeast Asia
46:10has been through
46:11the oceanic route
46:11which is somewhat
46:12I would say
46:13ignored.
46:14So another
46:15thing is that I
46:16hope that these
46:16revisions are
46:17not reversed
46:19because of
46:19criticism from
46:20the left which
46:21dominates Indian
46:23academic spaces
46:23and Indian
46:24civil society as
46:25well.
46:27Also Preeti
46:28now why these
46:29revisions
46:29were important
46:30firstly to
46:31correct historical
46:32imbalances I
46:32would say.
46:33So since
46:34independence
46:35literally Indian
46:36history textbooks
46:36did not pay
46:37adequate attention
46:39to glorious
46:39indigenous
46:40dynasties
46:41right and
46:42that is what
46:43is now being
46:44rectified.
46:45So we are
46:46trying to
46:46restore the
46:47balance by
46:47giving due
46:48importance to
46:49India's own
46:49civilizational
46:50achievements.
46:51When you are
46:51highlighting the
46:52Magad or the
46:53Mauryas or the
46:54sacred pilgrimage
46:55sites you are
46:57showcasing the
46:58cultural and
47:00the spiritual
47:01heritage of
47:01India right.
47:03So it instills a
47:04sense of pride in
47:05India's timeless
47:06civilizational
47:06existence.
47:08Also it helps to
47:10promote a rooted
47:11national identity.
47:12You know children
47:13first should
47:14understand their
47:15own country's
47:15ancient cultural
47:16and political
47:17evolution before
47:18learning about
47:19foreign rules.
47:20So these changes
47:21that are being done
47:22in the NCRTs I
47:23would say they will
47:24help to build a
47:24rooted and
47:25confident Indian
47:26society which is
47:27essential if we
47:28are to come up as
47:29a rising power on
47:30the global stage.
47:32Right.
47:33Another thing is
47:33that you know when
47:34you're talking about
47:35the sacred geography
47:35which is being
47:36accused of
47:38sapronization and
47:39whatnot I would
47:41say when you're
47:41talking about the
47:42Chardham Yatra or
47:43the Jotirlings in
47:44our textbooks you
47:45are emphasizing the
47:46spiritual geography and
47:47how it unites us.
47:49You know for
47:49example the linguistic
47:50the whole divide over
47:51Hindi imposition etc.
47:53there are far more
47:54what should I say
47:56fundamental aspects
47:58which unite us.
47:59One of which is the
48:00sacred geography.
48:01So that national
48:02integration can be
48:03fostered through how
48:05we teach our history
48:05to our children.
48:06Alright.
48:06You know I'm going
48:07to give either of
48:08you one and a half
48:08minutes each because
48:09that's all the time
48:10that I have but I
48:11want to cut across
48:12to Dr. Sharma first
48:13before I go back to
48:14Dr. Raghurwal to put
48:15their point of view.
48:16Dr. Sharma you heard
48:17the submissions of
48:17Dr. Raghurwal.
48:18What do you make of
48:19them?
48:21First of all I don't
48:22know which school
48:23did Dr. Raghurwal go
48:24to because I clearly
48:25remember reading about
48:26the Vijayanagars a
48:27separate chapter about
48:28the Vijayanagars in
48:29class 7th itself.
48:31There is absolutely
48:32no argument to make
48:33that Vijayanagar is
48:35something that is not
48:36talked to us.
48:37Secondly this idea
48:38that you know we are
48:39we should not be
48:40teaching our kids
48:41foreign rules.
48:42Well then all of the
48:43English history is a
48:44history of foreign
48:45rules.
48:46Starting with the
48:46Aryans which come
48:47from you know the
48:48Central Asian steps and
48:50this is something that
48:50has been proven beyond
48:52a doubt even the
48:53NCRT carries the two
48:54genetic studies which
48:55say that the Aryans
48:56migrated from 1500
48:57BCE onwards.
48:59So are we to not
49:00teach our kids any
49:02history at all considering
49:03all of Indian history
49:04comes from a tribe you
49:06know starting with the
49:07Aryans.
49:07Are we only to teach
49:08them for example the
49:09Inisali civilization that
49:10many would also argue
49:11are sites now in
49:13quote unquote Pakistan.
49:14So if you are going to
49:15use the
49:16the national territory
49:19which was put in the
49:2120th 21st century on
49:23India and map that
49:25onto history then I
49:27think that would be
49:28very problematic because
49:29then it takes away all
49:31of Indian history right
49:32because entire Indian
49:33history including the
49:34Satvahanas including the
49:36Mariyas including the
49:38Kushans they've all come
49:39from outside right.
49:40So let's not say that
49:42this is something that is
49:43foreign rule and which is
49:43why.
49:44Last point I think very
49:45good point made about
49:46maritime I would say
49:47please teach them about
49:49maritime history starting
49:50with the 7th century
49:51where the Aryans actually
49:53started controlling most
49:55of the maritime history
49:56of India.
49:58You know there is a
49:59fantastic mosque built in
50:00the 11th century by a
50:02jail merchant called
50:03Jagadu Saath.
50:04Okay.
50:04So basically you are
50:05seeming to suggest we
50:07need to have the Mughal
50:08history exactly where it
50:10was because it's
50:10important that our kids
50:11learn what the role of
50:12the Mughals were to
50:13shape where we stand
50:14today.
50:15Absolutely and to say
50:17that you know this is
50:18something that is
50:19foreign for the entire
50:20history of India is
50:21foreign.
50:22I'd like to give one and
50:23a half minutes to Dr.
50:24Raghurwal to give in his
50:25submissions you heard
50:26Dr. Sharma.
50:27Go ahead Dr. Raghurwal.
50:29So I'm afraid that Dr.
50:31Sharma had misquoted or
50:32misunderstood some of what
50:34I had said.
50:35Nowhere had I suggested
50:36that the Satvahanas etc.
50:38are not mentioned in our
50:39history textbooks but there
50:41is a relative imbalance in
50:42the kind of importance
50:43different dynasties have
50:45been given which needs to
50:46be rectified.
50:47That was my point.
50:48Secondly Dr. Sharma
50:49misquoted me again when
50:51she said that I had
50:52suggested that foreign
50:54rule should not be
50:55taught.
50:55Absolutely not.
50:56I would never make such
50:57a suggestion.
50:59What I am suggesting is
51:00that you know which
51:01nation in the world does
51:03not teach about its own
51:04civilizational achievements
51:05to its children.
51:07You know whether you look
51:07at France it teaches about
51:09the Gauls and the Franks
51:10and China teaches about
51:11the Quinn and the Han
51:12dynasties.
51:13So why should we shy away
51:15from teaching about our
51:16golden periods like
51:17Guptas or Mauders.
51:19That is the point.
51:20Right and it is nobody's
51:21case that Mughal history
51:23should be deleted in
51:24entirety.
51:25Of course it needs to be
51:26retained.
51:27Right so and let me
51:29clarify the way I see it
51:31Muslim history is not
51:32being erased.
51:33Muslim remain an integral
51:34part of India.
51:35Muslim history remains an
51:37integral part of our
51:38history.
51:39Right so what is
51:40happening is a project
51:42of completion and
51:44expansion of our
51:45textbooks by including
51:46the other dynasties and
51:47giving them sufficient
51:48space.
51:49Please appreciate India's
51:51civilizational history is
51:525000 plus years old.
51:54It is not confined to
51:56the period of the
51:56Delhi Sultanate or
51:57Mughal rule.
51:58So we need to make our
52:00history textbooks more
52:01inclusive.
52:02Right.
52:03All right.
52:04I appreciate both
52:05points of view.
52:06Thank you Dr.
52:07Sharma and Dr.
52:07Agrawal for joining us.
52:08We're going to let it be
52:09but it's a story we're
52:11going to follow very
52:11very closely because
52:12there have not been
52:13multiple cuts because
52:14if it is medieval
52:15histories what we're
52:16looking at and
52:17seventh standard is the
52:18initiation of young
52:19minds to know what
52:20India's medieval history
52:21is.
52:21When India's medieval
52:22history viewers is
52:23about the Mughals and
52:24they will learn nothing
52:25about the Mughals at
52:26least is what we've been
52:27given to understand in
52:28their first textbook right
52:29now.