What subjective vs Objective Masculinity?
With Anil James
With Anil James
Category
📺
TVTranscript
00:00Manhood, brought to you in part by Reboot Sports Drink.
00:09Welcome to another conversation of Manhood.
00:12A really exciting one, and I know I always say that's a really exciting one.
00:16It's exciting because the perspectives that we get here on this panel are really enlightening.
00:23And I'm always excited. It's like a book.
00:26You know, you start one way, but the story ends another way.
00:28So for me, I go in with one thought and I leave with another perspective.
00:32And that's really important. That's what we hope for you, our listeners and viewers, that you get.
00:38And also to remember that we're not speaking on behalf of all men.
00:41We are a few men talking to all men, boys, girls, ladies, anyone that's listening and willing to listen.
00:49So, panel here today, to my right, always a pleasure, Johanse, IODK, Behavior Change Consultant.
00:56To his right, Arnold James, social media influencer, although he's not certain whether he wants to be called that.
01:03But that's what we know him as, and that's what we appreciate you as, you know, and for what you bring in your content
01:10and the messages and the moments of, not just enlightenment, but joy in some cases, you know, with your comedic delivery.
01:19And the provocateur vibes God himself, Niall Mcnish, media personality.
01:26So today's topic, I normally go in with a real position on what the topic is, so that we're able to debate it, as it were, in the first segment
01:37and have that lighter discussion or heavier discussion later on.
01:41But I'm a bit confused this time around, and that's because Johanse has sort of, you know, asked to have the discussion on a particular topic,
01:52but I still feel it needs to be discussed.
01:56So, if...
01:58So, the topic is subjective versus objective masculinity.
02:02Now, I could expand on it, but when I hear the term subjective versus objective masculinity, first, tell me what comes to mind.
02:12Well, objective is facts to me, right?
02:16Factual information, and subjective is, of course, opinionated information.
02:21That's the way I take it.
02:22So, when you apply that to masculinity, it sounds like what is, what actually makes a man who was objectively a man,
02:30and in what is subjectively or societally assumed of what a man is.
02:35That's my take on it.
02:36Okay, very good.
02:37And then tell me it also.
02:38Get the nail on the head, like on a reel.
02:40So, it always have a two sides to the coin, and today I really want to dive into this discussion and see which of the two sides is actually right.
02:50Yeah, go for it.
02:52But sometimes, Anil, there's no right or wrong.
02:54It's just what is, you know.
02:57And again, that in itself is subjective.
02:58So, for me, I would take away that subjective or objective with masculinity is the, what we perceive it as.
03:08It might be just before us.
03:10It might be individually what we perceive it as or what we've read as a man and come to understand as a man.
03:15Maybe we could even go so far as in our own communities, in Trinidad and Tobago, in the region, internationally.
03:23What is the general consensus as to what a man is or a man should be, right?
03:29And then there's the subjective, which could be somebody's perception.
03:34What is now the new incarnation or the new understanding of a man as it pertains to that particular individual.
03:43What their societal influences or upbringing has showed them to be a man, having a father, not having a father, having people in your life that show them what they perceive to be a man.
03:56Or, which I want to get into, what you used a phrase earlier before we started recording, where, you know, where we shift the goalposts.
04:09Yes, so people decide whenever they want to, when it suits them, what a man is or how a man should be.
04:17So, this actually makes me think about the first episode we did.
04:21The first episode of Man and we did, we asked, what is a man?
04:24We started off defining just what is a man?
04:26And we realized that there was a lot of subjective opinions on what a man is.
04:31Because it depends on what society you're from, what family upbringing, what relationship you're in.
04:37And if I remember correctly, the conclusion was a man, the conclusion was a man is somebody who has values, sticks to it.
04:48So, stick with it.
04:49Stick with it.
04:50So, I mean, our values could all differ, right?
04:54But it's the ability to stick with it.
04:56And I draw that reference because we're living in a world now where there's a lot of optics about what a man should be.
05:06Whether it is a look, whether it is a personality, a behavior, a trait.
05:13And many men, including myself, because sometimes when consuming social media, you get a lot of different messages.
05:22And then also, you know you have your own opinion.
05:24And then you grow up a certain way, and then you see different things.
05:27So, you're even wondering, okay, what exactly is a man supposed to be?
05:31Is this topic coming from a woman's point of view?
05:35Because the women today, they have their thoughts of what they think a man should be.
05:41Or is it that we as men looking on what we think a man should be?
05:47I want to start with us men first, what we think it should be.
05:50And then we could go into what we hear women think it should be.
05:54Because both important.
05:56We first have to be, I think, should define ourselves.
05:58Right.
05:59Before even thinking about a woman or society or whatever, we define ourselves.
06:02But also, we have women in our lives.
06:04And the women also only have to be wives.
06:07It could be what your mother defines, your auntie, your granny, all those women that you maybe supported.
06:12And you're like, what they think a man should be.
06:14Or, I mean, it depends on your sexual preference.
06:17It could be another meal.
06:19Correct.
06:20But I want you just to clarify for me a bit more.
06:23When we say stick-with-iness, right?
06:25Now, that in itself, we could be identifying a man as someone who sticks with something.
06:31But, again, it depends on who you're with could look at you as a punk.
06:36Like, oh, I have done this, and you are still willing to stay with me as a result of it.
06:42I keep doing you this.
06:43I'm treating you in all of these other ways.
06:45And you're still sticking around.
06:47Like, you know, how much you're laughing?
06:49Are you a man still if it is a dick?
06:51But, correct, for your entire relationship, any relationship still.
06:56And the woman looks at you now and says, what kind of man you use?
06:58Or if you use a real man, a real man would have never take that.
07:01So, again...
07:03Okay, that's a good depth state.
07:06Now, when I was thinking stick-to-itiveness, I was thinking first outside of a relationship.
07:11Okay.
07:12Right?
07:12So, a man should choose a purpose and then stick-to-it.
07:16So, don't matter your profession.
07:18So, let me say you want to be, let me go to the typical doctor, lawyer, etc.
07:21Or you look for, look at what profession you want or success or trajectory and you'll be able to stick with it.
07:27And I'm using that as a masculine...
07:28Why does that make you a man, though?
07:30Because a woman, I mean, that's just a personality trait.
07:33That's just something that's a trait that is an attribute to somebody's, you know, a partial attribute and passion and drive.
07:44Be it a man or a woman.
07:45So, again, you know, just a pause on that.
07:48You know, I like to do the box.
07:50You know, the...
07:51What's the box?
07:53What's the box?
07:54The views and opinions shared on the show.
07:57So, I don't...
07:58Just claim on.
07:59I don't claim, you know.
08:00That is your answer.
08:02Well, that's a great question, Robert, because now I'm questioning even what exactly we define it of myself as masculine, as a masculine trait.
08:13Right.
08:13Because I was going to be using stick-to-it, but, of course, there are women who have stick-to-it, so it may not be a masculine trait.
08:20Which is a good trait, a positive trait.
08:22It's a good trait.
08:23And I would say it's a good trait for men to have because, and I say now, society or supposedly men are supposed to be dependable.
08:32So, if you're dependable, it means you're able to stick to something and move forward with it.
08:36Also, if...
08:38And the pillar.
08:39Yeah, the pillar.
08:40So, it may not be physical strength, because I remember once having a conversation, a man was saying he was more man than another man.
08:47And he was saying the man looked like a kind of nude, and he had glasses, and he was physically stronger.
08:52Right.
08:52Yeah, but he never stuck to anything.
08:55How that could define you to be a man because he's strong?
08:59That was his definition of it.
09:02But the nerdy guy decided he had a passion.
09:06I think it was in IT, let's say typical, as a typical quote-unquote nerd.
09:10Right.
09:10But he stuck to it, he became successful, he had his doctorate, and he had his big house and thing, and the other man was kind of just jumping around.
09:18Big and strong, eh?
09:19But he's just jumping around, and he don't see the other guy as masculine in any way.
09:25So, let me just say that I listened to a podcast recently with Michael, is it Michael B. Jordan, the actor from Creed and so on.
09:36And what he said is, in the earlier years, he spent it grinding, he spent it studying, he spent it studying his craft.
09:44He wasn't on, you know, dating and all these other things and buying stuff, you know, wearing one pair of shoes, because he knew where he wanted to get to.
09:52Right.
09:53Right?
09:53So, you hear a lot of times about this nerd thing, and it's the nerds that are now the cool people.
09:59Because when it counted, they were there beating the books and doing what they had to do, or entrepreneurs, and doing their different business.
10:06Depends on whether you consider a nerd someone who beats the book, or a nerd meaning someone who is, what could be deemed as focused.
10:13That it is.
10:14As someone that's focused, they're super focused.
10:17And now, they're the ones who have the ride, they're the ones that have the house, and they're the ones that get in the shoes.
10:22That, to me, right there is, to me, this is my opinion, the box, that defines a man.
10:30You should be able to provide for a family comfortably.
10:34Your family should need or want anything.
10:37Because, as a man, God put here to go forth a lot.
10:41Multiply.
10:42And there are a lot of men, in that aspect, just dropping the ball.
10:46Not multiplying.
10:47Not a man.
10:47Tell me what.
10:50I have no kids.
10:52i don't remember yeah yeah yeah yeah just adjust it yeah not much i'm multiplying but
10:58having kids i'm not providing working out on the family leave any kids to the wolves
11:04and that right there to me i would never class as a mother class as a maniku
11:09so what about men who want to be taken care of there's a difference no and this is where
11:18because i'm firmly in that group of guys i don't i look granted i don't mind taking care of my you
11:24know my lady friend but if i can get it back why i not you know partake in enough no no so something
11:31you guys said that i just wanted i just want to clarify because you know i all about clarification
11:36going on because to our viewers and listeners they're not here sitting down here so they might
11:40be going i want to ask this question and they only ask it in the comments but you mentioned you
11:45mentioned about that that that you know taking care of our families is what you deem as part of
11:51the attributes that makes a man but what if you're working as hard as you can but you still can't
11:57provide what is what is necessary does that mean does that make you less of a man it does not
12:02because you're trying and you're doing what you could do at your capacity you're not leaving the
12:07family stranded there are some men they're not doing nothing at all if you work in taxi and that
12:15money you're making from taxi providing for you is a man you probably you're there your hand on foot
12:20with your family the hand on foot with your wife your significant other and your child that left to
12:24the world the wolves and that's what i deem as being a man so you might be providing a hundred percent
12:31but you're doing a hundred percent correct it's like presents then so so i could be a kept man
12:36but my value might be to my family me being there emotionally hold on you just say kept you know
12:43kept so you're talking about a woman mining you yes i am speaking about financially you're talking about
12:53financially taking care of me i am i am not part of the financial conversation however i am there
13:00emotionally i'm there to teach my young ones i am there as a father so you're a mr mom i'm a mr mom
13:06does that am i not still within the range of manhood it's a word you're using you're saying
13:12mining and when you're coming across like a louse you know nobody's coming across that kind of louse
13:17are women louses who are kept right now but but your word your word is not what you're saying is how
13:24you're saying i'm specifically using these words if we say if we say as a man right right that the
13:31woman has the the the higher income um higher income job correct right then that that's fine
13:38or the woman decides for example if you have decided to have children and she's a doctor or a lawyer and
13:43has to go out to work or wants to be the career person nothing's wrong in that right but and that's a
13:50decision that you make and you say okay well honey i will stay home and look after our children i hate
13:56when when when people say we babysit it because men don't babysit their own children right right
14:00you stay home and you're looking after your children because you've made that decision i'm just i just
14:06have an issue with the word mine and how how we say well i use the word kept it just it just it just
14:13sounds like a louse it's so like i i'll ask so you're being mine and like i just was agreeing but i use the
14:20word kept okay like what we societally still has a negative connotation yes it does no no no that
14:27negative connotation could be subjective here right going subjective versus objective right because
14:33if if niall contributing to the home what is not being contributed so let's say the wife making the
14:41money but you're contributing let's say everything else then he's not a louse which is what i said okay
14:48but i'm afraid to make the stance initially as a man how we said it yeah i always said stop going to the
14:54semantics i have always said yeah it just it sounded to me only because a man said it this is my point
15:02that i'm making i'm saying what we usually generally say with women yeah she's a kept woman no one would a
15:08butter eyelash up if that was um lousey in any way men have to provide so he i'm sorry what that's it
15:14men have to provide what financially we are the providers but we we provide what from the beginning
15:21the providers but what but what if you can't but my point is what if you are doing this is why i come
15:26back are you to provide 100 or are you to do within all your capacity 100 because you might be going
15:34at 100 doing everything that you can and you still can't provide a home or you still can't provide
15:42food and and school fees and all these other things so does that make you as a result annul
15:48and that's going specifically to annul less of our money and i said no before because you are doing
15:55what but you just said you have to provide no but i'm saying it this is you're providing you are still
15:59providing the little that you are providing you are still providing at the end of the day i am not
16:04saying you are to be a millionaire and you had to buy the benz and the bema and the the five and six
16:09bedroom i'm not saying that you but will you be considered less of a man you will not be considered
16:15less of a man but among her peers let me finish let me finish let me finish them you will not and when
16:19you finish go to the break from you will not be considered less of a man but in the way in which
16:24now i said it i want to be kept it sounds to me that i just i'm a man and i don't want to work
16:30i want to be kept no no but his voice didn't go that high but then your perception and it sounded to
16:37me and it sounded like he just i just don't work at all and i want a woman like a big louse yeah
16:42that's what it sounds like that's what i'm saying you come across like an house but it's okay but it's
16:48okay if as a as a couple you come together if the wife is making more money and as a couple you come
16:54together and say here's what i'm making more money than you i don't want my kids to not have a parent
16:59around and some nanny mining them honey you steal if she tell you that not you coming and saying i want
17:05to be kept it's a difference so it's okay for women to want to be kept it's okay because why it's
17:21it's okay because at the end of the day that was so sad he said no no no no no no no what a woman
17:27could give to the kids a man can't give it and that's my personal personal belief but i know we
17:32had to go to the break we're going to the break when we come back we'll start this over
17:48so welcome back to manhood yohansi anil niall we're talking subjective and objective as it pertains to
17:58masculinity and we got into a lot of um really good discussion some heated discussion and we're
18:04still not very clear on what is subjective and what is objective or what is what is it really
18:11deemed to be a man um and and the truth is at the end of this show we're still not going to have the
18:18answer because it is subjective it depends on who you're with what environment you're in what community
18:24in what country in or whether someone's shifting the goalposts at that point but what we hope to
18:28have a discussion on is maybe a couple key points that we all understand and could all agree on that
18:37what what it takes to become a man and my good partner here anil was talking about being able to
18:44provide and i would say that there are people that are really doing their best to provide but simply
18:52cannot at this point and we can look back and we could say well if you had you know and women may
18:56do it or their parents or some of their friends or someone around might say well if you had only
19:01study if you had beat that book if you had do all of these different things but guess what you are
19:06where you are and you can't change that so if you're doing 100 at that point to provide and you're
19:15feeling at that particular insert and you're feeling by means of you can't pay the mortgage on your own
19:20you can't probably send them to an ivy league school so the environment that you're in because
19:25remember you you might be at one level where your friendships might be at another level they might
19:30be deemed as successful and so the friends around let's use for for lack of for um uh you know for
19:39for analogy purposes let's use the wife who then is looking at your partner that might be driving the
19:46range rover who might have the boat who might be able to travel and go to Miami to shop and then
19:51turn around at a point of vulnerability in her environment or her own insecurities and look at
19:56you and say if you're lucky look at you and say it you know what kind what kind of man you are or
20:03feel if you're less of a man because she might be saying and then that and then that goes into where
20:08you you have things like masculine energy come about because they now feel that they have to be the
20:14one that has to step up where they feel and notice they feel not that it's true where they feel you
20:20have lacked and i used up i used the point that you guys wanted to me to bring up on camera
20:28a friend of mine i would use a whole other country is in england and he hooked up with a woman who is
20:36wealthy right and he's walking around for you and he's walking around with her bag and so on now
20:43traveling all over the world and to her she's like okay well i have my i have my companion with me my
20:49mate right um he's fulfilling her purpose but in his mind it's not like okay well i'm supporting her
20:57it's he went in looking for someone who he could be a louse with using this word louse louse but he
21:06just wants to be kept just like which is what is it first of all yes just like me i want to be kept
21:12i want someone to take care of me do you know do you know that but but it but financially however let
21:17you just go back to your yeah yeah yeah you're like no no i i have no problem i don't get full
21:22up quick all right all right i know it has a space that i can't reach now you know at all but
21:27i can climb um with your friend and you mentioned and you said it's not derogatory manner with you
21:33holding her bags and stuff but generally as men we will be holding our women's bags regardless yeah
21:39he just happened to be getting paid for it now i'm not talking what i say when i see any situation
21:45we're not seeing that if you are in a relationship and one is it their career has gone forward and
21:53you're deciding hey first i maintain this relationship but for the betterment of our
21:57relationship you're in a more advanced position at this point i'm going to support you but you didn't
22:02go into the relationship looking for that in this case you're going into a relationship looking to
22:09be a louse correct no hear this right i get i get this right
22:15so men who like to be kept right they are your your your your base in your voice had to come
22:21all the way down i would agree i would you are i would agree you had to take down your base
22:26that's what you had to do because you had to talk soft because at the end of the day once you
22:31are kept arguments is what a woman don't want to hear no but it's not what everybody no no no no
22:37trust me i want i want to talk too i want actually i think you should talk to the fourth one the power
22:44dynamics does tend to switch when women have that up and into the society now that being said you want
22:51to be kept and she find like ain't moving right you go on and what are you going to do that now
22:56okay all right yeah i announced that all right so let's let's let i know you are staying pretty
23:03quiet because you're watching our island that's right but um again i am on the other side of the
23:08coin okay a woman is kept in a household does a man want to hear any long talk no not all the time
23:16so almost similar but what the thing is similar situation the thing with that is
23:22well i could talk about my relationship me and my wife we will together across the board
23:29we both contribute to the household and i don't like to quarrel no one likes to quarrel who does
23:36what i would do i would tell my wife to stop and when she calms down we would then revisit the
23:43conversation because it's calm down no i say stop okay i say yo just stop and when she hear me just
23:50just stop she already knew i had that point where i cannot have a conversation with you because i
23:55am upset you upset to be yelling nobody not gonna hear anybody so we will revisit the conversation
24:01when temper is cooled down right and remembering that the the you don't have a problem with one
24:06another it's just the problem is the problem yes okay no no that being said i know a lot of men
24:14they they want to have conversations with the with the the significant other but in a dynamic like
24:20that even though yes a man who's providing he is the man he in charge i know men that reach out to
24:28me personally that say i cannot have a conversation with my woman what to do how to get through to them
24:35they just don't know so in that dynamic when the woman have the upper hand and she tell you hush she
24:41don't want to hear you right so so still waters run deep i know my boy yeah yeah yeah quiet
24:49give me give me all right so you said some men reach out to you right a lot of men reach out to you
24:58and niall and your point was if the woman is keeping you right then you don't really have a
25:05seek but i would say no because i've seen situations where the woman was the main breadwinner let's see
25:10the man are bringing in nothing and he's still wearing the pants he's still telling her what to do
25:15he's still treat he's still moving like if he is the the quote unquote typical breadwinner right buried
25:21one of the cases okay most most of them won't now i'm adding this because i'm coming back with
25:29the subjective versus objective and that's why the beauty of human dynamics because all of us have
25:36our different thoughts feelings and emotions and opinions which of course are valid and it's to
25:42understand what works well for each relationship for each for each dynamic now we have any conversation
25:47and i'm not saying we shouldn't because we're talking to men we're talking to women we're talking
25:51to people that this they will get some information from it and of course we live in better better as men
25:58but also understand human dynamics and relationship dynamics so intricate that sometimes what we think
26:07wouldn't work works once two people have that understanding so if your partner in england had um
26:14understanding with the partner partner right partner right your brethren your brethren in england
26:22right have the understanding with his woman that she providing the money and he providing whatever else
26:29and nile have the understanding he wants to be kept and he providing something else and then anil
26:34you have the understanding with you and your wife that you all have have that understanding of what
26:39will work the subjective versus objective i would say it's not wrong once the both people on the same page so i want i want i
26:49you said something at the start and i i thought i thought that's where you were going um where if you're in a
26:57relationship and you're being kept but you want to be kept and you want to and you and we're coming across again it's not
27:07sometimes it's not always what you say sometimes how you say it so is it that we're saying that
27:13i am i am kept and now i still want to wear the pants so to speak right now what so therefore let's come
27:24back down to what do we define as a man is it because my wife is making more money and is pro and is
27:31providing financially that somehow takes away what what a male stands for
27:37does it no but but you know that saying right two man crab can have any same old
27:41but and this is this is this is the problem because it shouldn't be two man crab because one is a male
27:45female and one is a male for all intents and purposes i mean we know there's male and male
27:50female female on female which i'm just speaking you know um traditionally any well traditional is
27:58another another additional so that that that um box right um that that that if a man and again that's
28:13why i want us gentlemen to be able to define what we determine as a man because if we if what we
28:19determine and it doesn't doesn't mean that that that is what everyone will understand as a man but
28:24just a couple nuggets to understand that it might doesn't have to be 20 things it could be just three
28:30things it could be two it could be one thing that we identify as what we understand as a man is then
28:37that would help us in some of these conversations and understanding that because if we identify a man as
28:43the in charge of the household say for example you know the man is boss whatever it is we're not we're
28:51not seeing that's what it is before people start to pelt their coffee and all things right we're saying
28:56that if we select one thing and say man is boss then it wouldn't matter whether or not he's in charge
29:03that he's bringing financially the you know providing financially or whether or not he is the breadwinner
29:10it would just mean that that he's the boss and it can't be that we look and we say that to the
29:17outside somebody's saying but wait now here you are the one walking bringing in the money and he
29:22will tell you what to do in the house this is where the fabric is being destroyed because we don't have
29:29that fundamental base level maslow's hierarchy of needs base level understanding of what it takes to be
29:37a man well for me the base level is a man provides sperm everything after that is just subject
29:44subject to interpreting let me put it this way let me put it this way right we all from caribbean
29:50households yeah for me my father was making all the money but in reality my mother was who's really
29:56in charge i feel that all of us have something similar to that no matter how much money your father
30:02is making your mother's really the boss yeah my grandmother could run a household yes a woman's
30:07that's that's what i was saying the boss the person who calling his shots saying we're doing this this
30:13is what we're spending money on it don't matter who making it so is my father not the man in the
30:18situation but what i'm but what i'm asking us is to i'm not saying yes i'm not saying no i'm asking for
30:25understanding of what are we seeing then is a man because i use i use man is boss for analogy purposes
30:34but i'm saying to then what can we come up with in this segment that at least allows us to say
30:40these one two three or four things are what we understand we could well i now tell you in modern day
30:46it's sperm that's all is left all right so we start with the baseline with baseline so to be a man
30:53right it's right so so tell me tell me give me an example that a man and a woman separate is
31:01different outside of sperm that i can't rebut with okay before i go there
31:08robert you're asking the definition of a man but it seems like it's coming from the base of our
31:14relationship in relation to a woman let's say there's no one involved right before you're married
31:20before you have a girlfriend right before any before any of those things and how do we define
31:27ourselves as men first before having the framework okay so for me how you carry about yourself
31:34you don't need to be you could be facially impaired i could use that the pretty box
31:41yeah how you dress how you speak how you interact with people how you smell and you just have to
31:55have that confidence and that swag about you to have someone walking with their shoulders dull
31:59that's a confidence issue people women women not looking at you as a man they're looking at you as a
32:04man he cool like i don't like he i wouldn't feel safe with him gotcha but you define but you define
32:10you define general things you said how you smell how you speak now this is outside of a relationship
32:15yeah but what i'm saying to you is in seeing how you smell how you speak but i want you to
32:20break that down so how you speak is say okay well how you speak defines a man but what is that man
32:25speak what is that man smell so like if you say how i smell is it do i start up smell good
32:31do i have to smell bad do i have to smell how do i speak do i have to speak assertively do i have
32:37to speak that's it you speak you know when you speak you have to have a confidence in your tone
32:44you don't my voice do have to sound like my voice can't sound like yours
32:49but when you speak you have a confidence within you that resolves with people people here and what
32:54you like hey they feel your presence there are a lot of men will walk in a room and they would not
32:59get noticed at all now that does not make them less of a man but if you're looking at from a
33:05woman's standpoint in today's society they may not look at you as somebody desirable let me don't go
33:11from a woman's standpoint go from a man's standpoint all right so from a man's standpoint i would not
33:16look at you as an alpha because men are leaders natural born leaders and as a man you need to lead
33:24so when you walk into a room and you see somebody shoulders down thing oh yeah yeah you
33:30but i could have easily been classified back in in our disagreement because to say
33:35you know ying and yang alpha and omega you know you must have you must have leaders you must have
33:41followers if all men were leaders then who leading who all men should be leaders because at the end
33:48they have to lead your household so you have to be a leader within your right leadership attributes
33:52now so let me do a household because that's still a reference of women and children let me go all
33:57men all men should be able to lead themselves yeah so far let me go first okay so even let's use
34:03energy you go in a room right and i can give you an example i remember when i was 18 19 and now
34:08and i was going into a motorist in st james right right i was going in motorist in st james and i
34:16remember the first time going when i don't know if anybody ever going there when you're going there
34:19a lot of people i had a show a lot of men he had a show so at first i say i say what i wanted
34:24nobody take one i say i wanted nobody take one and i was speaking standard english too eh
34:30you're talking with your inside voice
34:31yeah yeah yeah right but when i say eh yeah correct correct so i use it you're not really
34:42getting it but you're getting it with a discount yeah yeah yeah yeah you know the thing so i say
34:46that because so as a leader first you have to know exactly what you want so if we starting to
34:52define us in defining what is a man right and a leader is somebody who know at least what they want
34:58so whether you're saying it was that high voice or low voice or not if you come in with the
35:02confidence i know i want this bottle and you come and you see what you come and you see exactly
35:06what i was saying then then you could get with that assurance yeah yes i want this i come for
35:11so and so and so and so right so i so you could with that thought you could take us to the break
35:17so with knowing exactly what i want i want to take us to the break in this moment
35:28so back from the break this is manhood johanse anil nile we're talking about subjectivity and
35:40objectivity as it pertains to masculinity but the question is a lot of the discussion you yourself
35:46might be thinking that a lot of our conversation has been around relationships and subjectivity and
35:53objectivity as it pertains to what your partner thinks and my question is is is that a is that a sign
36:00is that part of the psyche of that we need this validation that's why we instead of you you've
36:09mentioned several times to us and you've said yeah but take it outside of the relationship but we
36:14keep coming back when we in our analogies to our own relationships or our own interactions
36:20with someone else it is is that a telltale sign that we just need the validation men need that
36:29validation from their partner or a female or another person to decide what it takes to be a man
36:35you man so that is good for a lot of men yes and i'll give you both a research answer and i'll give you
36:42a personal example right um for last year and maybe the year before i i took it upon myself to go to
36:49men's groups across trinidad and today right so whether it's religious non-religious etc just to
36:54hear from different men hear different things and i remember i went to one where i was the youngest
36:59person there so it was a lot of established men and i remember they asking me about anxiety and a lot
37:06of them had anxiety now these were men who handling companies handling money but the anxiety was never
37:12for the business always around their wife and when when digging deeper and doing some research even
37:18within myself i realized and i'll use a caribbean man as the example caribbean men or we could be
37:26specific to trinidad and tobago is that a lot of us don't want the disapproving faces of women in our
37:32lives so from young from the time your mom face start the frog you don't you don't want her face the frog so you
37:39do anything for the face not the frog so your mom your sister your grandmom etc so now if you program
37:44like that from young it translates now into your girlfriend and your wife so as soon as her face
37:48does do something you want to to make sure and it's almost sometimes like a reflexive action
37:54that you start to jump or even you're coming to with something and you're hoping well i don't want
38:00her to face the frog i don't want her disapproval so you have anxiety so whether it is you come home with
38:05food you come it could be something very trivial and simple you you don't want that so that's that's
38:10the the the the objective and this is why we invite him all the time yeah yeah right so let me give
38:16even personal because even after analyzing myself i grew up with my mom and my grandma so my dad wasn't
38:22in the household so i myself was subject to this also because i didn't want the approval disapproval of
38:28my mom or my grandma so i even realized that translated into my relationships unconsciously
38:34you know so let me say it's only now in in my mature years not old mature years that i realizing that
38:41this is something that was happening with me and even even i say even in my current relationship
38:46it's something that i realize and even have have to work through that i'm looking for that approval
38:51consciously unconscious you know i think i'm a pretty successful person that i did stuff so it's not to
38:57say the approval of everybody i could go out in the world and do my thing and say my opinion but when
39:01it comes to it the woman in my life i still have that reflexive you know i want her to make sure
39:08they're okay and sometimes even to my i wouldn't say detriment because that's a little too deep but
39:12even to my sometimes self-betrayal because i might want to do something at this time but because
39:17you know i still i still might do it tell me your thoughts so my my i again mind blown
39:24we always start off like i said and i mean you know your answer always appreciate you know these
39:30nuggets that you bring and it would have probably been even good for a closing closing statement so
39:34i'm i'm encouraged i'm like wow you know but i just want you know just the fact that you said
39:39um what what got me was one of the things that he said he was you know one of the youngest in the room
39:43so i thought that to me i was like it's a deep visitor old people's home you know at that particular
39:48stage but uh but uh it it really it really is impacting to as to how much then the the like and
39:58you you know the female interactions in your life affect what shapes a man
40:06because a woman regardless of what her behavior is will still be seen as a woman to a man from a man
40:16a male perspective you you wouldn't you know even though she's you know we might use the words tomboy
40:21we might use you you know these this this new phrase masculine energy and all these different
40:25things but you're not gonna look at a woman say hey be a woman it that's but but yet still to the
40:34anything outside of that is you know like when you say um and i've said it before where something
40:40happens to you and you say you stop being a p p word and it's like why is it somehow that that
40:49when it comes to weakness we always refer to maybe female genitalia as opposed to the reality of you
40:59know you you kick a woman there and kicking a man there's two different things and and we we spend so
41:05much time on our presence and our understanding of being a male and a man is so dependent on
41:11the defining base for my woman base for all ones as i a lot of times so as men we were taught a lot
41:18of attributes we we we have today's from our father as a man you're not supposed to cry
41:25have i heard that before are you crying for he's our yellow stop crying now boy sometimes you're
41:30crying as you get your mother again next way there's not only five mothers that say that yeah so so so
41:35is everything is is taught so for me when i think about now you know hearing that that side of it
41:42because i never ever ever looked at it from that standpoint where you came with you know just being
41:50having that anxiety and trying to just not make them cry not make them smile um not make them cry
41:55sorry it mind-blowing to me now like looking back at my younger years and you know the the woman in my
42:04dynamics dynamics dynamics how much it has shaped me as a man today that's crazy though you cut me deep
42:13day boy well i i was just literally hearing this coming over here where it was said that the quality
42:21of a child's life and the man or woman that you grew up to be is directly proportional to the quality
42:28of the happiness of the woman or the mother in their life happy wife happy life not not the man
42:34not not if the if the man was there or not but the quality of her happiness so if your father not
42:42been around actually made your mother happy you'll be okay well that according to data because i mean
42:47i don't know if that's true or not because we'll see if they have research i'm not saying you're wrong
42:52because of course it would have validity and me having this revelation also made me think about
42:58even for myself maybe sometimes i need to so to go you know back in the day it had the rites of passage
43:04where men would take men out and you become a man it had nothing to do with women it had you learning
43:11to be a man among the men of your village extension and for me i i do i don't think i had that in my life
43:19i mean i would say when i went away and studied and i was out there alone i had to find my way and
43:24make my way but most of us men didn't have the opportunity where men took us to show us how to
43:30to be a man always out of the frame frame of what a woman might want what a mom might want etc etc so
43:36i thinking for myself i would like to go somewhere and have that that experience to see what it does to
43:45i mean in terms of my my change of perspective on masculinity change of perspective on even who
43:50who i am because and i'm using the caribbean male because a lot of a lot of us we grew up
43:56pleasing granny and mommy right and therefore a granny and mommy then would for want of a better would
44:02groom us or train us to then please other women in our lives versus us understanding who we are as men
44:08now who we are as men still could please women you know right but we i think all men should have the
44:14the perspective where we learn it without the influence of of women so
44:20a woman a woman a woman raised when she's in a she extremely happy right what she does is to that
44:31male is she gives him happy memories he has a happy childhood but is he learning to be a man
44:38or what or does he have a figure in front of him to learn male attributes innately the answer is no
44:45so you you have someone that grows up with a happy childhood they're not traumatized in any particular
44:51way but are they have they been groomed innately alongside to know that hey these are just certain
44:57things that men do how to treat a woman or no you're just going from at that point how you feel about
45:03but you have no you because you didn't you didn't see if you don't see it you didn't see a man treating a woman well and then and
45:09and because we know the the the the woman a woman can't teach a man to be a man right um i'll give an example i've realized that
45:18in in a child's life um and this is not perfect sense but if the mother plays the the let's say the most dominant role between 0 and 12
45:28and then the father plays the dominant role between 13 and 18 you will get the most well-rounded man
45:34talking about a man because between the 0 to 12 you learn how mother's love you learn that you're loved
45:40and you and you appreciate it and you could get a hug anytime you want and you provide but then 13 to 18
45:45you get the let's say the realness of the world you get a different perspective in terms of how to
45:49process emotions how to find yourself how to interact with the world in a way that you would survive
45:54and that that's the most well well balanced and i'm adding that because understanding the role of a
46:01man in a man's life versus understanding it's only from us defining ourselves from a feminine point of
46:08way because you have to have the balance so i'm not saying no to the the woman right feminine influence
46:13but getting that balance which unfortunately because of society that's in the next episode many fathers
46:22won't present many men won't present we don't have the village anymore so not to say if the man not
46:27the father not there we have uncles we have a whole set of people to help us and and as a result a lot of
46:32us men and i seen including myself because there's a lot of um i would say softness in me because of
46:40that that i am working on to to get out because i wasn't around a man at certain certain pivotal
46:47times in my life but around women and and trying to please women so
46:51so
46:51i would want their thoughts um but also in those thoughts your thoughts on what it takes to be a
47:00man what is that we might keep asking for that one or two things um the topic was sustainable
47:06um subjective and objective as it pertains to masculinity and we got some you know got our minds blown of
47:13course as to the correlation between that and our female interactions and you know starting from
47:19birth um so in your closing thoughts um starting with niall um
47:24all right what does it take to be a man well i i said my piece already and yet i i find that i didn't
47:32get that summarizing summarize summarize which was scientifically ejaculation sperm is what makes a man
47:42however to push that but i was just maybe a bit of a i would say that that makes a meal
47:46that makes a meal right um there's a difference between a father and a daddy
47:51yes yes i would agree right um but just a just a close off on that would be as a man
47:59be an asset to the household be an asset to your partner whoever they may be uh being of value to
48:08someone or people outside of yourself that is where i see true manhood is right uh especially in
48:16situations where no one else could do it but you so that's for me and my very final closing statement
48:22is if you do not have money stop having unprotected sex
48:28we gotta join the box on that one um being a man to me is being a leader and not just leading your
48:44household but as you said it takes a village to raise a child and in today's society they are not
48:51there are a lot of young men growing up without fathers and nobody to look to to be that example
48:59for them so understanding is not just about you and your household but being that example for
49:05the community so when we do things like when myself i can speak for me when i do things on social media
49:12i try to do things from that standpoint taking the consideration is kids looking on i need to be that
49:19example for them teaching them how to have a strong mind like recently i lost um my front tooth
49:27i had an accident years ago and um had crungs and bitter bone recently what front one came out
49:36then the other one had to extract it because it had a cavity waiting for the gums to do the bridge
49:42and i on social media with with no teeth i'm laughing and smiling and that is not just because i like to
49:50play the fool it's to show them yo you could be you there's nothing to be ashamed of once you
49:58once you are sure within yourself doors are open why care and conform to society and what societies the
50:09direction society is pushing you in today that making a bunch of weak men you stand out the box so
50:17so for me in closing i would say be a leader be a provider be you and love you
50:25okay so and you know sometimes you don't want to go after some people right so in this case i don't
50:34want to go after your aunt because you know you're going to contextualize everything and then i'll be
50:39left going have a good time on my you know thanks for watching manhood good good but but you know
50:45again i i really appreciate gentlemen you know as i say you know how we start is not it's not how we
50:51finish um and there's a lot in here we start off with subjective objective um what it takes to be a
50:58man what we think of um what what it means to be a man and my takeaway more than anything else is
51:05and this is going to be a revelation even for myself that i'm agreeing with nile in some part
51:11that being a male what being a man the only real thing that determines a man is the fact that your
51:20mate your biological makeup because outside of that we're talking about being human yeah what it what
51:29it what it means to be human so being using all the words of leadership using all the words of being
51:34kind all of the different references that we made it's simply being human so being a man to me if you
51:42are a man biologically what you need to then be doing is to dig in and and and reconnect with the
51:50humanity that's within you reconnect with things like leadership reconnect with kindness reconnect with
51:57doing the right thing and the thing is we know what the right thing is even when we're doing the wrong
52:03thing we know what the right thing would have been because it's that little you know jiminy cricket
52:08on our on our shoulders is that that that conscience that tells you hey this is you know what i'm doing
52:15doesn't you can't tell me it's feeling good unless you're a sociopath and so being a man is simply
52:21being a man doing the right thing
52:26that that that that one thing i mean you guys you guys have said it said it best is there's not
52:34there's not a lot to add and what i what i can't add i know your auntie's gonna add value so
52:39all right um one anil thank you right i appreciate you being here and i appreciate every guest we have
52:49because we every time we come here i think it for me personally i leave a better man and then the more diverse
52:56men we have you learn even more and i'm adding the importance of man other than the importance of even men
53:03just meeting and having conversations like these and what i would say coming out of this conversation
53:09for what makes a man is i would go with internal versus external locus of control so don't let things
53:19outside control who you are let who you are come from inside yes you would learn something from other
53:26people you must learn from others right but essentially don't live your life to please others
53:33versus living your life to please yourself so when you look back you could say yeah boy i'm proud
53:38of who i am i proud of who i want to be and i think that that's what makes a man
53:42there you have it so when you're saying is a man are you a good man or are you a bad man
53:50and you've heard it all here today on manhood so johansi anil nile thanks once again subjective
53:59objective objective yeah man manhood brought to you in part by reboot sports drink