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00:00Welcome back to Better Things with Joe Bianca.
00:03This is episode eight.
00:04In this episode, I'm going to talk to the executive director
00:07of the Thoroughbred Idea Foundation, Pat Cummings,
00:10one of the smartest, most thoughtful people
00:11I know in this business.
00:13The TIF does great work on behalf of horse players,
00:16on behalf of owners, and to really fix
00:18those structural issues in racing in a way
00:20that I don't think anybody else has ever done.
00:23So let's talk to Pat.
00:25Joining me today on Better Things
00:27is one of the sharpest guys I know in racing,
00:29the executive director of the Thoroughbred Idea Foundation,
00:32Pat Cummings.
00:32Thanks for coming on.
00:34Thank you for having me, Joe.
00:35It's a pleasure.
00:36Great to have you.
00:37Always great to talk to you.
00:38One of the most thoughtful people I know.
00:39So I know this is going to be a great conversation.
00:42But let's start.
00:42Don't laugh.
00:43You're a thoughtful guy.
00:45Maybe not three barbons in, but we'll get to that point.
00:49I appreciate it.
00:50I appreciate it.
00:51I appreciate it.
00:51So we'll start with the Thoroughbred Idea Foundation,
00:54because I think you guys have provided
00:55such a valuable service to the industry,
00:57especially to the horse player.
00:59Can you just talk about the genesis of that?
01:01Why you and Craig Burnick decided to start that,
01:04and kind of how its role has morphed from what you initially
01:08envisioned?
01:10Yeah.
01:12I think when you're starting something truly brand
01:14new in racing, you really don't know where it's going to go.
01:19You don't know where it's going to start
01:21and where it's going to take you.
01:22And it was certainly, and Craig Burnick
01:26is 100% the reason it happened.
01:30It was his vision.
01:32It might not have started out exactly as he envisioned it
01:35and where it has gone today.
01:37But it has emerged and has evolved
01:39into that into more than four years now
01:41of trying to advocate for a variety of issues.
01:44And look, the take was very simple.
01:47Horse players and horse owners drive the sport.
01:52It is their participation.
01:54They are the voluntary contributors.
01:58And so many other people along the way are takers.
02:02And without the horse player, without the horse owner,
02:07we really don't end up with a sport.
02:10And while there is so much, and this was even at the time,
02:14there was a lot of focus on the LASIX issue.
02:17I'd say there isn't as much anymore, right?
02:20But there is still some.
02:22But the concept was everyone's talking about LASIX.
02:27Let's talk about the things that matter to the people
02:31who put their money up day in and day out.
02:33Whereas it was a lot of horsemen, trainers,
02:37assistants, and other people who were talking about LASIX.
02:41But our game is not defined by LASIX alone.
02:46They run the races in plenty of other places on earth
02:48without it.
02:49So let's tackle the issues, the issues that affect bettors,
02:55how they contribute, how we deal
02:57with this competitive environment that we're in,
02:59probably a more competitive gaming, gambling space
03:02than we've ever seen.
03:04And let's talk about the issues that affect the players.
03:07And let's talk about the issues that affect the players.
03:10And let's talk about the issues that affect the players.
03:13And look, there's trickle down to owners for that, right?
03:16And look, there's trickle down to owners for that, right?
03:18Through prize money and participation and fan base.
03:22So it was trying to focus on the issues
03:24that weren't really being focused on.
03:28And I think we've done a good job
03:29of picking out a few topics, focusing on those,
03:33and really trying to drive change
03:34in a variety of different ways.
03:36You've really done that.
03:38You've really done that.
03:38And I think you guys, not so much for the owners,
03:41but for the horse players,
03:42you guys are the voice to the voiceless.
03:44Now, that's not necessarily the case with racing Twitter.
03:46I think a lot of people have become more loud
03:49and more visible on behalf of the horse players.
03:51But I think in an official capacity,
03:54you guys are that voice.
03:55Now, that entails calling out racetracks
03:59and calling out racing commissions
04:00and some of the bullshit that goes on
04:03where horse players are the last to be thought of.
04:05Have you faced any pushback from that,
04:07from any of the powers that be in racing?
04:09Yeah, I think some take it personally from time to time
04:13and they shouldn't, but some people do.
04:16And I don't think we have really often
04:18called out individuals.
04:21I think we called out the system, right?
04:24It's not hate the player, hate the game.
04:27And that I think is the case, right?
04:30You have to have a working relationship with racetracks,
04:34with racing commissions.
04:36There, I think, is a mutual respect there.
04:38And I think we've built that up over the years
04:41where they know that we're not just trying
04:43to play a game of gotcha.
04:46We are really looking to improve the sport
04:49for those who participate in it.
04:52But with that does come criticism.
04:54And where that criticism originates
04:57is from a place of great frustration,
05:00from the fact that individually,
05:04this is kind of a one person to the sport game.
05:09It is, the better looks at themselves as a participant,
05:13but does not see representation.
05:15And it's different if you're just a fan
05:18as opposed to if you are a better.
05:21And yeah, so I think we've taken up the mantle
05:25in certain cases, some very direct, some indirect,
05:29some that never really had much public view
05:32to go to racetracks and say, what are you doing here?
05:37Or commissions, how did you let this happen?
05:40Or I think the more important question,
05:44particularly to the commissions is,
05:46how can we make sure this bad situation
05:50doesn't happen again?
05:52Yeah, well, one of the success stories,
05:54I think, of the TIF is penny breakage.
05:57That's something that you were on for a long time,
05:59which for anybody who's not familiar
06:01is basically just stolen money from horse players,
06:04where the payouts get rounded down
06:06to sometimes the 20 cent marker,
06:10sometimes 10 cent barrier,
06:12but really you should be getting paid out to the penny.
06:14And that passed, there was a bill passed in Kentucky
06:17that now in every Kentucky racetrack,
06:20betters get paid 4.37 for a $2 win bet
06:23instead of $4.20.
06:25Talk me a little bit through,
06:27I'm sure you were in contact with representative Koenig,
06:29who was one of the people that ushered that
06:31through the Kentucky house.
06:33Talk to me about that process,
06:34how it started to get traction on a legislative level.
06:38So it was one of our,
06:39it was the original white paper that we wrote.
06:42And the way in which we have tackled these topics
06:45is to take a broad topic
06:46and then tell the story of that broad topic
06:49through a smaller kind of subset.
06:51And penny breakage was the way to tell the story
06:54of cost matters to betters, right?
06:56We need to be attentive to costs and expenses
07:00that our customers bear.
07:02And penny, you know, breakage was frustrating.
07:07It was 2018, Justify had won the Triple Crown
07:12and there were actually a couple, you know,
07:14egregious examples of him paying, you know,
07:16220 or 220 to place or show
07:20in one of the Triple Crown races.
07:22And if there had been penny breaks,
07:24I think it was in Maryland,
07:26he would have paid like 236, right?
07:30And how much money that actually was
07:34that was withheld from winning betters.
07:36And look, it's the task and the challenge
07:41of something like the Horse Racing Integrity
07:44and Safety Authority has shown a lot of people
07:46how difficult it is to operate
07:48and get all states together on the same topic.
07:50Well, breakage is no different.
07:53Individual states tracks have statutes,
07:57rules that need to be changed.
07:59And the process of making those changes is not simple.
08:03So fortunately in Kentucky,
08:07Representative Adam Koenig first heard about this,
08:10about TIF and about our case with breakage
08:13on the Steve Bick Show.
08:15And he turned around and reached out
08:17and we sat down a couple months
08:20after the paper was released
08:21and with Damon Thayer,
08:24the Senate Majority Leader here in Kentucky,
08:26a longtime member of the Assembly
08:28and you meet the House and the Senate side, right?
08:31To pull this off.
08:33And it was more or less planting a seed
08:36and a lack of recognition that this was an issue.
08:39He didn't even know anything about it, did Adam.
08:43Was a longtime horse player, didn't even know it existed.
08:46And I think a lot of horse players don't.
08:48And now we are, you know,
08:53two months into penny breaks in Kentucky
08:56and you're still finding people who say,
08:57hey, I just noticed this.
08:59And it's gonna happen with Keeneland in October.
09:02It's gonna happen at the Breeders' Cup.
09:03Probably most of all that someone is, you know,
09:06they're gonna get 224 on Jackie's Warrior to show
09:10and they may have gotten 220 before.
09:13And that's attractive.
09:17And it's trying to draw attention
09:19to the fact that cost matters.
09:21And now a lot of this was timing, right?
09:25So Adam Koenig was going through a process,
09:29the entire legislature was in the aftermath
09:31of the historical horse racing legislation from 2021,
09:35early 21 to divide,
09:38well, they needed to have a task force
09:41that was set up to look at all of parimutuel wagering
09:44in Kentucky and they wanted to standardize tax rates,
09:48look to make sure that everyone was really getting
09:51a fair share from HHR revenue.
09:54But Adam said, look, we've taken care of everyone.
09:57Let's take care of the betters.
09:59And this was one of the things that was proposed.
10:03I testified in front of the committee and put this forward.
10:07And look, the timing was just right.
10:09There were four bills in the legislature last session
10:12that had something to do with horse racing or wagering
10:16or wagering related topics.
10:18This is the only one that passed and was signed into law.
10:21And I think maybe because it was set up with the task force
10:27and it had gone through a really thorough process,
10:29but even still, there's a great deal of both hard work
10:34and luck that we were able to get this through
10:38and really provide something back to horse players,
10:40give them more of their rightful winnings.
10:43And I think that's great for horse racing,
10:45for anyone who enjoys purse money from racing,
10:49to get more back from betters by allowing them
10:54to churn their winnings more,
10:56as opposed to the track just holding it and taking it
10:58and ADW just holding and taking that money.
11:01We wanna reignite those takeout cycles.
11:04It's a small thing, Joe, but at the same time,
11:08it's I think a meaningful step to really raise awareness.
11:12Well, it's very tangible.
11:14Like you said, I'd forgotten when it was implemented
11:18at Ellis, I'd forgotten that it was all of Kentucky
11:20when Kentucky Downs came around.
11:22I was like, oh shit, 367 instead of 340 or 350,
11:26you know what I'm saying?
11:27So it's very tangible where you can see it
11:29right in front of you, whereas with lower takeouts,
11:31that's a little bit trickier where you have to do the math.
11:34And yes, generally you get a sense over time
11:36that you're getting more back,
11:37but this is immediate, this is right in your face
11:39and you know that you're being done right
11:42as opposed to before.
11:43And it really embellishes like how much of a difference
11:47it was before.
11:48Like this was a major problem
11:49that nobody was really talking about.
11:51But I'm curious as to how likely it is
11:53that we're gonna get that here in New York
11:55or in California or Florida or any of these other states.
11:57Are you privy to any of those discussions?
11:59Is there anything else on the horizon
12:01for other states getting penny breakage?
12:04I'll tell you, we actually approached New York first
12:06about this back in 2018.
12:09And the reason we did is that New York
12:11already has the most liberal breakage policy in America
12:14prior to Kentucky's decision.
12:17So in New York, breakages is determined
12:19based on what the return is on a winning bet.
12:24So if it's under $10,
12:26the break goes to the nickel on every penny
12:29or the nickel on every dollar bet.
12:32So a $1 return in New York can be $8.80, $8.90 or $9.
12:38Whereas in most states it's $9 or $8.80.
12:40There is no middle ground.
12:42When you win more, when it's over $10,
12:45it goes to a dime on every dollar.
12:48You win above I think $50 and then it goes to a quarter.
12:52And it's like you went over $500, it goes to a dollar.
12:56The rounding is a full dollar unit.
12:59That was done literally, Joe, 30 years ago.
13:03Steve Crist was very involved.
13:05So we looked at that as inspiration.
13:08We approached NIRA, talked about it
13:10and it just never really,
13:11there was no momentum at the time to do it.
13:15It requires changing laws.
13:18And in the greater legislative scheme of things,
13:22it's tough to get penny breakage on the docket.
13:26So we're realistic about it.
13:30But I would say, I did get a phone call
13:34from a major operator soon after Kentucky went through
13:39saying, hey, how'd this all come about?
13:42And not knowing the backstory.
13:44And I was able to share and hopefully
13:46there's more to come there,
13:47but it's gonna require some work and some impetus.
13:50We're trying to light the spark, right?
13:54Get a little ember burning here
13:56and maybe it can spread across the greater industry
13:59in a positive way, but things are gonna change.
14:02Things have to evolve.
14:03And look, Joe, we need to recognize
14:06we are in competition with every other form of gambling.
14:10And the concept that this money is being withheld
14:14simply because that's the way it was a hundred years ago,
14:17it's just, it's really ridiculous.
14:20And it just needs to change.
14:22I mean, it's so true.
14:23Like it's a hot topic in racing
14:25about the competition with sports betting right now.
14:28It's interesting.
14:29I've had a bunch of people on this show
14:30and I ask them about their sports betting handle
14:32and literally only one person,
14:33Michael Baychock has said he bets sports.
14:35Everyone else is either in a state that doesn't allow it yet
14:38or doesn't get into sports betting.
14:40But what's your sense in terms of how that handle,
14:42how sports betting handle
14:43is affecting racing handle at this point?
14:45Obviously that's a macro question.
14:47You don't have the numbers specifically,
14:48but what's your sense?
14:50Because you know, horse players,
14:51you know sports better as I'm sure.
14:52What's your sense about how those things are interacting?
14:55So the answer is to what's actually happening.
15:00You know, we don't, we're not gonna be able to tell.
15:04And it's like, we get this question about racing.
15:07I get it about breakage.
15:08Is that gonna increase handle?
15:10And if so, what percentage of increase in handle came
15:12because of penny break?
15:14Answering that is it's good luck, right?
15:18There's so many variables that go into it.
15:20Here's the way I like to look at this
15:22to put the perspective on it.
15:24And you can then fill in the blanks after that.
15:27In 2003, we know that about 8% of total wagering handle
15:33paramutually on American racing came from CRW,
15:38computer robotic wagering outlets.
15:41We know the total handle was about $15 billion,
15:45adjusted for inflation's closer to 23, 24 billion now.
15:51If you know what today's handle was last year,
15:55$12 billion, right?
15:57That's in 2021 dollars.
16:00Solve for what percentage of today's betting
16:04comes from CRWs.
16:08There's debate about this topic.
16:11It varies by pool, by track, by day, right?
16:16If there's a jackpot bet in the mix,
16:18that's right part of it.
16:20I think the answer is between 30 and 40%.
16:25And on some days at some tracks and some pools,
16:28it's higher than 40%.
16:29And we know that for a fact.
16:32When you have that figure
16:34and you understand what's been going on,
16:37in order to,
16:41you make the adjustments for inflation
16:44and you figure out that over time,
16:50what that means is that the change in our business
16:53over that period of time is such that if CRWs today are,
16:58let's say 35% of total wagering,
17:00and they were 8% in 2003,
17:02and you make the adjustments for inflation,
17:04that means that the non-CRW handle
17:08has declined by in the neighborhood of 70%, right?
17:14So let's call it hardcore racing fans, weekend warriors,
17:18anybody who's not using a file upload program,
17:23who is not algorithmically driving their betting,
17:26but even the higher end players might not be,
17:30there are plenty of them that don't do that.
17:33That all of those customers have declined by 70%
17:38in the last two decades adjusted for inflation.
17:41So what has happened in those last two decades?
17:44Customer choice in entertainment options,
17:48in discretionary spending has changed dramatically.
17:52Gambling options have changed dramatically.
17:54They've increased dramatically
17:55and particularly in the last couple of years.
17:58I'm a little more concerned that horse racing
18:01is going to miss capturing new customers
18:06than they are existing customers
18:09shifting over to sports betting.
18:11Because existing customers could come back,
18:14they have an experience.
18:15If you make it better, you may be able to recapture them.
18:20But you cannot provide horse racing in 2022
18:26to brand new customers
18:27with not knowing what price you're gonna get
18:30with things like not having penny breakage
18:33or losing money as a result of that,
18:35or 21% blended takeout,
18:39not having accuracies throughout
18:44or surface switches that are laid or past posting incidents,
18:48all these things that existing customers
18:50have kind of come to expect and deal with and tolerate,
18:53albeit grudgingly,
18:55how do you get new customers and keep them?
18:58That to me is the long-term concern of this,
19:01that yeah, we might be able to pull some people back,
19:03but how do we compete
19:04with new customers emerging in the market?
19:07I mean, it's such a hard question to answer,
19:09but like you say, there are so many little things
19:12that racing could potentially clean up
19:14to not chase away the people
19:16that are already banging on the horses.
19:18And you mentioned this at the TIF recently
19:20about an unscratched horse running at Mountaineer Park
19:24and ended up running second for purse money only.
19:27This brings us back
19:27to the Del Mar Breeders' Cup turf issue last year.
19:31Obviously, everybody remembers that
19:32with modern games being scratched
19:33and then re-entering the pools
19:34and then running for purse money only.
19:36For the life of me,
19:37I cannot understand why tracks
19:38can't get these little things right.
19:41Like I understand the thrust of a purse money only rule.
19:45It's like if you have an entry,
19:47you know, and one of the horses scratches late
19:49and you get stuck with the other half,
19:50like I get that, you know,
19:52I think the idea behind it is to protect bettors,
19:55but in the end, it screws bettors over more often
19:58than it protects them.
19:59Why do you think these things persist in racing
20:02when they seem relatively easily fixable?
20:05They are more easily fixable
20:08than explaining a logic
20:09for still having them in place today.
20:13I take that same approach when I'm trying to tackle topics.
20:18What is the best source?
20:20Where should I go to fix this?
20:23And to be fair,
20:24the Mountaineer situation came to me
20:27by a horse player who was playing the pick four that day
20:30and sent a message to me saying,
20:34you've got to see what's going on here.
20:36This is unbelievable.
20:37They're announcing two races or a race.
20:41No, it was actually,
20:41it was probably 18 minutes, I think,
20:46after the start of the sequence of a pick four,
20:51they announced that a horse
20:52that had been announced to scratch
20:53and had been scratched for basically 40 minutes
20:56prior to the first race,
20:58but you can imagine how big Mountaineer's pick four handle
21:01was 40 minutes prior to the first.
21:04Was going to run
21:05and that the wrong horse had been scratched
21:08and number five will not run
21:10and number six will run now.
21:13And this customer was just apoplectic
21:17as to what was going to happen.
21:19Now, you could go to the track on that thing,
21:23but at the end of the day,
21:25the rules that are in place as to what needs to be followed
21:29are set by the commission, right?
21:31It's not, they're not responding to house rules.
21:33They're responding to West Virginia Racing Commission rules.
21:37And so I did engage with the commission
21:40to learn more about what had happened.
21:42Was there an honest mistake?
21:44Yes.
21:46Did it likely cost customers something?
21:50Potentially, the scratched horse did not win.
21:56The racing commission said to us,
21:59we were prepared to, they were going to pay all
22:02if the scratched horse had won.
22:04And what I kind of realized later is
22:07it was going to pay to all anyway,
22:09because no one would have had the scratched horse
22:12on a ticket unless they had placed their pick for a bet
22:1540 minutes prior to the first race.
22:17So we shouldn't be breathing a sigh of relief
22:21because we got this one by on this occasion.
22:25Well, what it comes down to Joe,
22:27the origin of all of these things in my estimation
22:31is that the rules were written a long time ago
22:34and they have not evolved to the modern game.
22:37We have evolved our bet types.
22:39We have not evolved the rules that affect those bet types.
22:44We have a series of antiquated rules
22:47that vary state by state.
22:49And even the best intentions of things like
22:52the ARCI's model rules committee,
22:55they just can't stay on top of all of these things
22:58concurrently and get everything done.
23:03The sport is not positioned that way.
23:05I've sat in those model rules committee meetings
23:07and it's four hours of talking about medication.
23:11Now, there have been occasional wagering conversations
23:14and rules conversations around those.
23:16And in fact, if you look at the rules
23:17in some of these states,
23:19new bet types have some voluminous rule sets
23:23because they've been required to put them in.
23:25But some of these old rules are still on the books.
23:27I mean, I can tell you right now in the state of New York,
23:31at Saratoga, at BAQ,
23:35you can, if a horse is unruly at the starting gate,
23:42it is within the prerogative of the starter
23:46to pull the horse out of the starting gate
23:48with the jockey on and quote unquote,
23:50start the horse behind the line.
23:54This is on the rule books today.
23:57So imagine they're going in for a 10,000
24:01New York bred claimer in February
24:05and a horse is unruly.
24:07And instead of the vet scratching the horse,
24:10he said, no, this horse is fine to run.
24:12We're just going to take him out.
24:13We're going to put a line here
24:14and we're going to let him start
24:15from a standing start behind the line.
24:19That's allowable under the rules today.
24:23Yeah.
24:25Yeah, that'll be a heck of a release
24:26that we'll be able to put out.
24:28So, but it could happen.
24:31Yeah.
24:33We have not been looking after customers.
24:35And frankly, if you go to any of these meetings,
24:39rarely do customers speak.
24:42Rarely do commissions hear from customers
24:45in salient arguments about the rules
24:48and why they need to change.
24:50I've participated in countless meetings.
24:53I've called in, I've talked about situations
24:55in public comment periods.
24:58And I try to handle it as respectfully
25:00and diligently and seriously as I possibly can.
25:04And sometimes, I mean, these situations were ridiculous.
25:07And the modern games one is too.
25:09And it's anytime a purse only situation
25:12comes into play in New York, ridiculous.
25:16You have essentially created two races,
25:19a race for bettors and a race for owners.
25:22Yeah.
25:23And the race for owners is pure,
25:26but the race for horse players can be affected
25:29by the race that's been created for owners
25:31in uncountable ways.
25:33It's impossible to tell.
25:35That's what happened in a Breeders' Cup grade one race.
25:41And I can tell you the rules have not been adjusted yet
25:44in California.
25:45I participated in a hearing about this,
25:48talked about the possibilities.
25:50And to be fair, the California Horse Racing Board
25:52seemed to want to talk more about the possibility
25:56that bettors could more easily make alternate selections
26:00when putting their tickets in.
26:03Does not solve the problem of having a horse
26:05that no one could bet on impacting the race
26:10for bets that had already been placed.
26:11I mean, that's the thing is it does seem like
26:14those purse of money only horses win
26:16a disproportionate amount of the time,
26:17but it's not even about that.
26:19It's about how they can, like you said,
26:20how they can affect the other race,
26:22whether it's the pace,
26:23whether it's drifting into another horse's path.
26:25Yeah, I mean, it's absolutely infuriating.
26:27I think about these rules a lot,
26:29kind of like these like little deficiencies
26:32and like a really old system that then like in California,
26:36like they had this giant wildfire and then they went
26:38and they did an investigation about it.
26:40And it was like this one rusty hook
26:42that hadn't been replaced in a hundred years
26:44that dropped the electrical line
26:46and started this gigantic wildfire
26:48that burned for months and months and months.
26:50Obviously this is a less consequential example,
26:52but that's what I think about in racing
26:54is like these tiny little cracks in the system
26:56that nobody, save for you guys and some other people,
26:59really identify until it becomes that fire.
27:02And that fire was what happened in the juvenile turf.
27:05And it's, yeah.
27:07I can tell you that it's a perfect analogy
27:12for the greater ills, broken windows, right?
27:15If we clean up the broken windows,
27:17the house will look a lot neater
27:19no matter what other work needs to happen inside.
27:21We have a lot of broken windows.
27:24We have a lot of infrastructure issues, right?
27:27And I'm picking on New York here,
27:29but there was a stretch at Saratoga this summer
27:32where the head-on camera on the dirt track was not working.
27:37Right?
27:39And when you go and look at what the head-on replays were,
27:44they were not, they were shot ground level
27:48from like the finish line.
27:49Yeah.
27:50And you're like, what if?
27:53Look, and I believe it was the test.
27:57There was an inquiry or an objection.
27:59And there was something that was adjudicated
28:02based on not having a direct head-on view.
28:05That's like, that's really tough to take.
28:09The operator is failing.
28:11The regulator is failing.
28:14And they're failing the customers.
28:16And to an extent, the horsemen, but really the customers.
28:19Yep.
28:20And again, it's just,
28:23everyone leaves for a different reason.
28:27Everyone moves on to something else for a different reason.
28:31Eventually they get to a point where they just can't take it
28:33and something small may just turn them off.
28:37Yeah.
28:38And it could be those sorts of things.
28:40And you just can't let that, you can't let that persist.
28:44Conversely, there are jurisdictions on this planet
28:47that stay on top of their rules.
28:49And I was a part of witnessing that process
28:53in Hong Kong for three years.
28:55I saw how the rules are constantly monitored
29:00and tweaked and adjusted
29:02to upgrade the standards of the sport
29:06and to protect customers and to look out for them.
29:09And we really can't do it enough.
29:13Do the commissions have the resources,
29:16the personnel have the right training
29:20to go over these things, the right perspective?
29:23There's a lot of reasons as to why I think it hasn't happened
29:25but look, there's no legitimate excuse for it.
29:31Bottom line is you're running a regulated gambling endeavor.
29:35You need to regulate it appropriately.
29:37I mean, yeah, that should be a no brainer.
29:39And like, going from Hong Kong back to this,
29:42it must've been like going back in time 100 years.
29:45I can imagine the culture shock
29:47when it comes to how racing is regulated
29:50and conducted over there.
29:51Let's just talk real quick about the timing issue
29:53because I do wanna move on to some lighter topics
29:55because I don't want this to be a 45 minute pitch fest
29:57even though it definitely could be justifiably.
30:00But let's talk a little about the timing thing
30:01before we move on.
30:03This has been an issue,
30:04this has been an increasingly bad issue
30:06in terms of how races are presented in the past performances.
30:10Now you can tell me that maybe it's actually improving
30:12but I just anecdotally see more and more hand-timed,
30:16hand-timed, hand-timed in the past performances.
30:19This seems like something where the old timing systems
30:22were actually working well
30:24and then we threw in these new wrinkles of this GPS system
30:27that then kind of upended the whole thing
30:29and has made it less efficient
30:31to where we still don't have an official time
30:33for the Saratoga Derby,
30:35which is a grade one race at Saratoga a couple of months ago.
30:38Now I know you're gonna talk about run-ups
30:40and like what an unnecessary wrinkle that is.
30:43So definitely please go on about that,
30:44but also just your sense of whether or not
30:47this is gonna be fixable in the near future.
30:50It is such a complex topic to really get into
30:54and I don't wanna take us too far down
30:57the rabbit hole of timing.
30:59So I'll say this,
31:00there have been improvements in the last two years.
31:06Is the problem solved?
31:09Absolutely not.
31:11There have been some improvements.
31:14Some tracks, almost every race is considered hand-timed.
31:18And I would estimate that if we went back in history,
31:23almost every race at those tracks
31:25may have been hand-timed for longer than we even know
31:29or that is reported on paper.
31:31It's just that now it's being displayed as hand-timed.
31:35There are a series of issues that affect timing these days.
31:39One of them I think is that the long time
31:42kind of legacy equipment really hasn't been kept up with,
31:45really hasn't been, it hasn't evolved.
31:48And then there's an introduction of newer technology
31:51that is a part of the greater timing landscape.
31:56And I think everyone wants to use newer technology.
31:59Problem is the old technology worked really well
32:04if you want it to time races, quote unquote, inaccurately.
32:09And that's the thing,
32:11it worked well in a bad way of timing races.
32:15As we've evolved with more turf racing,
32:18more lanes on turf courses,
32:21as the old technology continued to antiquate,
32:25it became tougher and tougher to keep up with it,
32:27more and more expensive.
32:28And I was like, I think there was a push to move
32:31to simpler, more modern solutions.
32:35The problem is we're still timing races in the old manner.
32:40And that I think is really hurting racing
32:44from kind of just biting the bullet
32:46and moving on down the road to a more modern way.
32:50You take any engineer in any discipline,
32:53bring them to a racetrack and say,
32:54how do you think we time races?
32:56I don't think they would ever come up with
32:59what it is that is done in America today to time races,
33:02where the untimed portion of a race varies
33:06depending upon the configuration of the track,
33:09where timing poles are, where the gate is placed,
33:12where the gate is placed for different distances
33:15on the same piece of grass,
33:16but just dependent upon where the rail setting is.
33:20It really defies all logic.
33:23A six for a long race at Pimlico
33:25and a six for a long race at Churchill on dirt tracks
33:28where the rails don't change are wildly different races.
33:34And that's, again, like I said,
33:35not even getting into the turf and the rails and everything.
33:38So I think a big step forward will be the industry
33:44realizing we've got to get rid of timing races
33:48as we did for 80 or 90 years, which was a really bad way
33:54and it just didn't need to happen the way it did
33:57and move on to something that is more modern,
33:59timing from the start of the gate.
34:02Now, if you time it to a pulse
34:06of when the starter hits the button
34:09and a pulse is sent to downstream systems to start timing,
34:12that probably makes the most sense.
34:16But it means that the clock starts
34:17when the horses are standing still.
34:20And in reality, that's what happens in other jurisdictions.
34:24Not all timing kind of varies by jurisdiction,
34:28but none of them have as inconsistent an experience
34:33as we have in North America because of run-up timing.
34:38And it's just something we need to move on from.
34:41Well, you've mentioned the different jurisdictions
34:43and the different rules and the different customs.
34:46I want to talk a little bit about the interference rules
34:48because there's a little bit of debate about this.
34:50And I think we're going to disagree on this
34:52about the category one interference rules,
34:55which you can correct me if I'm wrong.
34:56Basically, it disqualifies and punishes
34:59the connections of the horse instead of the bettors,
35:02where if there's an interference thing
35:05and there's a disqualification, it's the purse money,
35:08it's the jockey maybe gets a fine or whatever.
35:11And the better of the horse who won does not get taken down.
35:16Is that correct?
35:17Do I have that right?
35:18I would not agree entirely.
35:20I would just change it around.
35:23The question that the stewards consider
35:25about interference has changed.
35:29That question yields fewer demotions.
35:33So jockeys are still penalized.
35:36In some cases, they may be penalized more,
35:39but I think you could argue that in most cases
35:42where there is a demotion,
35:44but a jockey is likely facing a couple of days anyway.
35:48Now they may get those days just without a demotion.
35:53And the question changes.
35:55So what we have today for the most part across America
35:59is did the interference cost the horse a better placing?
36:04Again, every state is different.
36:08The wording, the interpretation varies,
36:12but that's more or less what is in place
36:14in almost every state with the exception now of Oklahoma,
36:16which has adopted the Category 1 rule.
36:19And it means that I like to take the most outrageous example
36:25because rules are imperfect.
36:28So Category 1 is not perfect.
36:31Category 2 is not perfect,
36:32but take the most ludicrous consideration.
36:36In a field of 200 horses where the first place horse
36:43bumped the 199th placed horse 27 miles
36:49from the finish in a 28-mile race,
36:53if the stewards believe that that interference
36:57cost the 199th place horse an opportunity to finish 198th,
37:03the demotion is warranted.
37:06It is essentially what happened
37:08in the 2019 Kentucky Derby.
37:11Did maximum security interfere with several horses?
37:14Yes.
37:15Long Range Toddy, John Court protested.
37:19They had finished 17th.
37:22Could they have finished 16th if not for that interference?
37:25It's believable.
37:27I think it's a rational conclusion that could be made
37:31and was made rightly under the rules.
37:34Did it give that horse more prize money,
37:37a greater placement?
37:38Not at all.
37:39But under the rule, that made sense.
37:42It was a logical demotion.
37:44Country House had no argument there.
37:46You could say War of Will did, right?
37:49But it cost War of Will perhaps a better placing,
37:53but they did not claim foul.
37:56Is it always just?
37:58No.
38:00So recognizing that every rule can't possibly account
38:05for all situations fairly equally justly,
38:09we look at it and say,
38:11are we going to have more unjust outcomes
38:16in category two in the present day?
38:18And I think the answer is yes.
38:20That a good number of interference situations exist
38:25where a horse is slowing,
38:27another horse is passing it and is accelerating.
38:31They bump, they brush,
38:32and a horse has cost fourth or fifth as a result of that.
38:35Entirely fair all the time?
38:38Maybe not.
38:39But in category one, the question changes to,
38:42if the interference hadn't occurred,
38:44would the horse that was aggrieved,
38:47the sufferer of the interference,
38:49have finished ahead of the horse?
38:51Excuse me.
38:53If the interference had not occurred,
38:55would the horse that caused the interference
38:57have finished ahead of the horse
38:59that suffered the interference?
39:01So if not for this,
39:02would the results still have been the same?
39:05Would the results still have played out the way it was?
39:07And sometimes, you know,
39:10a close call is still going to be a close call.
39:13We think on balance, this is the fair outcome.
39:17And realistically, Joe, it's the harmonized outcome.
39:21The entirety of the rest of the developed racing world
39:24uses that rule.
39:25We do not have many harmonized rules
39:28across the entirety of this sport.
39:30And in this instance,
39:32Oklahoma has made the decision to move to category one.
39:36I do believe there are other states, provinces,
39:39that are in line behind them,
39:42that are strongly considering it.
39:43And I think more will follow.
39:45And then we could actually get
39:46to one global harmonized interference rule,
39:51which is a win, I think, for horse players.
39:53I mean, I get what you're saying,
39:55and I understand the logic of it.
39:56My counter-argument would be,
39:58it depends on when the interference happened.
40:00Because if a horse finishes eighth,
40:03but he got cut off a half mile out of the race,
40:05and then has to pull up and lose 10 lengths,
40:08I mean, who are you to say that that horse
40:10wouldn't have finished ahead of the horse that won?
40:12Like, it just, sometimes there's interference
40:14that's so egregious, I think,
40:16that it doesn't matter where the horse was placed.
40:18The horse lost all chance of winning the race
40:20at that moment.
40:21And I think that that's what happened
40:22in the 2019 Kentucky Derby, to a lot of horses.
40:25Obviously, not to Long Range Toddy,
40:26but to War of Will, like you said.
40:28I think that that, once you cost the horse
40:29the entire chance of winning the race,
40:31and I think it doesn't matter where that horse ends up.
40:33And then there's also the safety aspect of it.
40:36We've seen riders, like Paco Lopez, for example,
40:39who were just willing to knock off
40:41and pinch back horses that may be tiring.
40:44You know, 316s from home,
40:46they may look like they're tiring.
40:47Who knows, horses re-rally.
40:49And I think that that, it leads for a bad incentive
40:52that the horses who are backing up, potentially,
40:55do not matter in terms of safety.
40:57Now, whether or not that plays out,
40:58and you know more about this than me,
41:00whether or not that plays out
41:01and there are more unsafe incidents
41:03in category one jurisdictions,
41:06you know that better than me,
41:07but I think it leads to bad incentives
41:10that the horses are sacrificable
41:12who are maybe backing up during the race.
41:14So, two points.
41:15Number one, no one wants an unsafe situation.
41:19And there has been no evidence from jurisdictions
41:24who have made the change in recent years,
41:27Japan, France, and Germany, the most notable,
41:30of an increase in dangerous riding,
41:35injuries, incidents like that.
41:38Zero evidence.
41:40And I've spoken to the stewards themselves,
41:43the authorities involved,
41:47and there is research out there on this topic.
41:49It has not transpired.
41:51Yeah, but are those places have Paco Lopez?
41:54Well, you know, look, I'm very sensitive to that.
41:58And that is why in the Oklahoma category one rule,
42:02they've adopted a provision
42:04that is specific for dangerous riding,
42:06and they have defined dangerous riding.
42:09And we use the term disqualification right now
42:12to basically mean changing the placings.
42:15But really what we mean when we say that is demoting.
42:18We're taking a horse and we're demoting them
42:22from where they were to where we think they should be.
42:27Disqualification in the international sense
42:30means basically throwing a horse out.
42:32And Oklahoma has introduced this provision
42:35that if the interference caused
42:38is a result of dangerous riding,
42:40as it is defined in their rule and the exact wording,
42:44which I don't have off the top of my head.
42:46But if there is dangerous riding,
42:49then the stewards have the ability to throw you out,
42:53to throw you to last,
42:55to ride dangerously, cannot be rewarded.
43:00So it's not that there isn't a brush
43:02or there isn't some interference,
43:05there's careless riding, it happens.
43:07But danger, unacceptable, intolerable.
43:13And to be fair, within the rules today in many states,
43:17there is a provision that says
43:19you may place them behind the horse that they caused
43:22or the stewards may place the horse last.
43:26It just basically has never been used.
43:30That provision now is in place
43:32specifically for dangerous riding.
43:34And look, so far to date,
43:36there have not been any demotions in Oklahoma
43:39quarter horses or thoroughbreds
43:41since the rule went into play.
43:43There've been a handful of objections thrown out
43:48they weren't really,
43:50I wouldn't say we've had a really strong test
43:53of the rule yet, close,
43:56but nothing that's really gotten it there.
44:00And I think this is good for players.
44:03I really do.
44:04I think it will yield more consistent outcomes.
44:09The question that the stewards consider is different.
44:11It changes and I think it's something
44:13they can visualize a little bit better
44:15as opposed to, did this fading horse,
44:18could this horse have been eighth
44:20and still get zero prize money instead of ninth?
44:24And that we're going to justify
44:26taking down a six length winner.
44:29Yeah, no, I do think that that's a fair argument
44:32and I understand your points.
44:35And in this case, in the category one rules,
44:37I do think that you're putting a little bit more power
44:39in the stewards' hands,
44:40which is not always a good thing in racing,
44:42but in the interest of time,
44:43we have to move on to the Philadelphia 76ers.
44:46Now I wore this jersey just for Pat.
44:48I didn't want to just take the guns out.
44:49This is an Allen Iverson rookie jersey, which I love.
44:53It's one of my favorite pieces of clothing.
44:55Last time I spoke to you at the Sixers,
44:56it didn't seem like you were too optimistic.
44:59You said that Joel Embiid, as much as you love him,
45:02seems like a little bit of a dinosaur
45:04and kind of the old big man, the old slow big man.
45:07They had just gotten flushed out of the playoffs,
45:09I think, when we spoke to you about that.
45:11How are you feeling now about Sixers basketball?
45:14I am, look, hope springs eternal
45:18at the start of a new season, right?
45:21So you feel positive about what could happen.
45:24You feel the energy of Embiid and Harden sitting together
45:28and Harden talking about what great shape he's in.
45:30Oh yeah.
45:32And jokingly saying he lost a hundred pounds.
45:35He does look like he's in better shape for what it's worth.
45:38For now.
45:38But look, is it going to play out that way?
45:44How's the season really going to go?
45:46I'm more positive than not.
45:50And I really do think Harden's freshness
45:53has brought about that positivity,
45:56but we'll see what happens.
45:57Look, it's a tough conference.
46:00And they've changed the schedules.
46:03I don't know if you've noticed this,
46:04but they have made the back end of the schedules
46:07far more competitive for the top teams in the league
46:11to play each other at the end of the regular season.
46:14And so like I looked at what the Sixers
46:16are going to face in April.
46:17And if things look the way they did this year,
46:20they're going to face the six best teams in the league
46:23in the last six games of the regular season.
46:25So who knows what happens between now and then,
46:28but I am hopeful.
46:29I think there will be improvement
46:31and a little bit of uncertainty
46:35in how the rest of the conference has evolved
46:38over the off season.
46:40No, I hear you.
46:41And the interesting thing with the Sixers
46:42is they're kind of a test case, I think,
46:44for a lot of fan bases who are being asked
46:47to accept a complete fire sale
46:51and a rebuild from the bottom up.
46:53I'm a Jet fan.
46:54I've been hearing for five years how this is,
46:56well, we need a total rebuild.
46:58Well, other teams seem to be doing it quicker than we do,
47:00but it's so interesting when that turns,
47:03when it turns from trust the process
47:05to now you got to win a goddamn championship.
47:07So what's the temperature in Philly now?
47:10I assume trusting the process is over.
47:11Now you got to win the whole thing.
47:14Yeah, I think fans will have a shorter fuse this year.
47:17Right, there was a lot of uncertainty last year
47:18with the Ben Simmons situation
47:20and they played far fewer games with Harden
47:23than with the question of what was going to happen with Ben.
47:28So the fuse I think is shortening.
47:32Look, we're not in the situation that Utah is in,
47:36which I think is another fascinating consideration
47:39of what they're trying to do.
47:40I'm a really gross reconstruction.
47:44I'm interested to see how that plays out.
47:46But yeah, short Philadelphia fuse.
47:51Some would say our fuses are normally pretty short.
47:54So yeah, look, if they open up two and six,
48:00it could be a long season.
48:03It also depends on what the Eagles keep doing
48:05because the Eagles look damn good right now.
48:07Have an MVP candidate seemingly out of nowhere.
48:10Got to be feeling pretty good about them.
48:12They could be 17 and 0.
48:15They really could.
48:16Look at the schedule.
48:17They have the third weakest schedule in the league
48:20the rest of the way based on the early returns.
48:23I think the best game on their schedule is the Packers.
48:26They get them, I think that game is in Philadelphia.
48:30Thanksgiving weekend.
48:30So I'm not saying it's going to happen, Joe,
48:34but it is not impossible.
48:37And the only way you're going to win all 17
48:38is to win the first three.
48:40So they've done that so far.
48:42It sounds like Pat Cummings, expert handicapper,
48:44is ready to do a 14 leg parlay every single week
48:47for the rest of the season for the Eagles that go 17 and 0.
48:50Put your money where your mouth is.
48:51Not in Kentucky, Joe, not in Kentucky.
48:54That's right, not yet.
48:55All right, Pat, I could talk to you all day,
48:57but we got to cut it off.
48:58I love spending time with you and hearing you speak
49:00about the things in the industry that are wrong.
49:02And, you know, you're one of the guys that I like
49:04because you propose solutions.
49:06People love to bitch in this sport and rightfully so,
49:09but you're one of the guys who propose a solution.
49:10So thank you for that.
49:12Thanks, Joe.
49:12I appreciate it.
49:14It's always a work in progress.
49:16No solution is going to be the end of our problems, right?
49:21No problem is going to be the end of our sport.
49:24All of these things are multifactorial.
49:26We've got to get them all right.
49:28It's a constant effort.
49:30And look, we rely on other people to help us
49:32and get this done.
49:33We can't do it, right?
49:35It requires a real effort
49:37and we just want to see the sport improve.
49:38So it's a team effort.
49:40We appreciate the attention that you bring
49:42to issues that affect bettors
49:44and really that the TDN does as well.
49:46The coverage is fantastic and we're really thankful for it.
49:49Well, we're thankful for you, Pat.
49:50Appreciate you coming on, man.
49:52Thanks, Joe.
49:53Welcome back to the Breeders' Cup Challenge betting series
49:56here on Better Things with Joe Bianca.
49:58Last time on Better Things,
49:59I feel like I need like a little dramatic voiceover
50:01for that last time on Better Things.
50:03At Kentucky Downs, I whiffed in the turf sprint,
50:05unfortunately.
50:06Got a little too cute in the Kentucky Turf Cup
50:08as I was right about the winner, Red Knight,
50:11but I kind of underestimated the price he was going to be.
50:13I used him on top in the try,
50:15trying to get a bigger pop,
50:16thinking he'd only be six or seven to one,
50:18only to watch him win at 12-9.
50:21Only to watch him win at 12-1
50:23and have a horse sneak into third to bust up my try.
50:26Man, listen, I could do a whole future episode of this show
50:30about getting too cute in my bets,
50:31but the end result is we dropped $230.
50:34We're now just narrowly in the black at plus $40.45.
50:38This week, we are featuring Belmont at the Big A.
50:41I never thought I'd get to see the day
50:43where their Breeders' Cup Challenge races run at Aqueduct.
50:46This is going to be the most prestigious it's felt
50:48at Aqueduct since they used to simulcast Saratoga there
50:51in the summer.
50:52Listen, the Big A is a relic
50:54and the wrecking ball is coming for it soon,
50:56but it's also not without its charm and history.
50:59Secretariat ran there.
51:00The grandstand used to be teeming with 50,000 fans.
51:04There was in fact a Breeders' Cup at Aqueduct
51:06once upon a time.
51:07And most importantly for decades,
51:08it served as New York's blue collar racetrack
51:11where the smaller stables and the lesser known jockeys
51:14could have a realistic chance of winning some races
51:16if only they were able to brave the brutal Ozone Park winter
51:20filled with the winds off of Jamaica Bay.
51:23I spent more days than I'd like to admit
51:25taking the A train out to North Conduit Ave
51:27for an unglamorous day at the races
51:29that still just felt like home.
51:31So I'm glad it's getting its moment in the sun
51:33while Belmont is prepped to be the future permanent home
51:36of downstate racing in New York.
51:38It deserves to be the place to race one last time.
51:41Overall, there are a full dozen Breeders' Cup
51:44Winning Your In Challenge qualifiers this weekend
51:47as we get closer and closer to the Breeders' Cup.
51:49Our two races are the Grade 1 Champagne Stakes
51:51for two-year-olds going a mile on the main track
51:54or Winning Your In Qualifier for the Breeders' Cup Juvenile
51:57and the Grade 2 Miss Grillo Stakes
51:59going a mile and a 16th on the turf
52:01for two-year-old Phillies Winning Your In Qualifier
52:03for the Breeders' Cup Juvenile Phillies turf.
52:05The two races can be seen on NBC from four to six Eastern
52:09this Saturday, October 1st.
52:11There is some rain in the forecast
52:13but I'm going to handicap the card
52:14as if they're going to be on the turf.
52:16We'll start with the Miss Grillo
52:17which goes as the eighth race at 439 Eastern.
52:20Just a six-horse field with 11 combined starts
52:23so there's not much established form here.
52:25These are the races where watching replays
52:27can be so crucial to forming a strong opinion.
52:30The two obvious horses are number two, Free Look
52:32and number six, Be Your Best
52:34who have devastating turns of foot
52:36and they looked the part on replays.
52:38Those two are tough to get past for me
52:40but I do have some interest in the New York Red
52:41number five, I'm Just Kiddin'.
52:43She's a little slow on paper
52:45but she's got a good chance to get loose I think
52:47under Joel Rosario.
52:48There's no confirmed speeds signed on.
52:51She's a daughter of Justify.
52:52Also bred to stretch out, looked a little green too
52:55so I think she has more development to come.
52:57Number four, a learning angel can't be thrown out either.
52:59Her debut race was really impressive visually.
53:02She had some excuses when she hung a bit last time out
53:04finishing a close second at a stake at Kentucky Downs.
53:08And the Champagne which is the 10th race at 545
53:11most likely sets up as a redemption story
53:13for number six, Gulfport to me.
53:15He was considered clearly the best two-year-old
53:17in the country early on after he won his first two races
53:19by a combined 19 and a quarter lengths.
53:22Bloom came off the roads a little bit
53:23after he was a well-beaten second in his last two
53:25both times as a heavy favorite
53:27but he had excuses in those races.
53:29He got checked hard on the turn of the Saratoga Special
53:32just as he was making his move
53:34and he drifted out pretty sharply
53:35in a crucial spot coming off the turn
53:38over a mess of the track in the hopeful.
53:40Both times he re-rallied in deep stretch
53:42but he just ran into two nice horses
53:43in Damon's Mountain Forte
53:45who had simply gotten too much of a jump on him.
53:47Draws outside in here which is key
53:49with several speeds to his inside.
53:51I expect him to run much closer to those first two races
53:54with a clear trip and be best in the final furlong.
53:57He's not gonna be any great price
53:58but I think he won't be favored
53:59for the first time in his career.
54:01There's a Brad Cox horse in there, number three verifying
54:04who has a lot of buzz behind him.
54:06Well-publicized half-brother to Midnight Bisou
54:08got a big buyer in his win for his timeout.
54:11Only other horse I'm interested in the Champagne
54:13is number two, Top Recruit who ran a huge race
54:16gamely winning the Ellis Park Juvenile Stakes last out.
54:19Won an early speed duel
54:20and then he got hooked on the turn by Curly Jack
54:22and probably fought back the whole stretch
54:25to win that race and that effort was flattered.
54:27Curly Jack came back to win the Grade 3 Iroquois Stakes
54:30a couple weeks ago at Churchill Downs.
54:32So I'm gonna play a couple of pick three tickets
54:34starting in the Miss Guerrillo, closing in the Champagne
54:37with the Grade 3 Belmont Turf Sprint Stakes in between.
54:40We'll do a $1 pick three, number two Free Look,
54:42number four Alluring Angel, number five I'm Just Kiddin'
54:45and number six Be Your Best
54:47spreading with one, two, three, four, six, seven,
54:50eight, 12 in the Turf Sprint
54:52with number two Top Recruit and number six Gulfport
54:54in the Champagne for a total of $72.
54:57The same ticket with just Free Look
54:59and Be Your Best in the first leg.
55:00Same the rest of the way for a total of $36
55:03and one more punching those two in the first leg
55:06and Gulfport in the last leg.
55:08Same horses in the middle leg for a $2 ticket
55:10for a total of $36.
55:12Then one last ticket spreading
55:14in the Miss Guerrillo in the Champagne.
55:16In case the horse I like most in the Turf Sprint,
55:17number 10 Dancing Buck who ran too good to lose last time
55:20at Saratoga wins the middle leg.
55:22That'll be a $1 pick three, two, four, five, six
55:25with 10 with all for a total of $24.
55:29All told this week's investment is $168.
55:33Best of luck this weekend.
55:34Don't forget to catch the two Breeders' Cup tickets
55:36punched in the Miss Guerrillo and Champagne broadcast live
55:39from Aqueduct on NBC from four to 6 p.m. Eastern Saturday.
55:44All right, so that's going to do it
55:45for this week's episode of Better Things with Joe Bianca.
55:48Thank you to Pat Cummings for coming on.
55:49Had a great conversation with him.
55:51Thanks to the Breeders' Cup for their sponsorship.
55:53Thanks to our producer, Patty Wolfe
55:55and our editors, Anthony LaRocca,
55:57Aaliyah LaRocca and Nathan Wilkinson.
55:59And thank you for watching.
56:00We'll be back next week with another great guest
56:02and another Breeders' Cup handicapping segment
56:05as we're now just over five weeks away
56:07from the Breeders' Cup World Championships,
56:09November 4th and 5th at Keeneland.