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00:00:00Welcome back to better things with Joe Bianca. This is episode 9. I am your host Joe Bianca on this episode
00:00:06We're gonna talk to Chuck Simon the former trainer former assistant for Alan Jerkins
00:00:11He's the host of the popular going in circles podcast with friend of the show Barry Spears
00:00:16We're the most thoughtful funny incisive industry critics. We have we had a great conversation
00:00:22And later on we're gonna handicapped sticks
00:00:24Sticks readers cup winning year in races this Saturday and Sunday at Keeneland
00:00:29Lots of opportunities to make money one of the best meats out there in the meantime. Let's get to our conversation with Chuck
00:00:40So excited for this next guest usually I try to have someone on that
00:00:44I don't know that much and we get to know each other this guy and I are brothers from another mother
00:00:48We go way back
00:00:49We've never spoken on air is the host of the going in circles podcast and a former trainer Chuck Simon. Welcome to the show
00:00:56Joey man, it's it's good to be on man. Appreciate it. It's great
00:01:00You could tell Chuck knows me because he called me Joey. It's like nobody in the past 10 years
00:01:04It's called me Joey. So that's how you know Chuck and I go way back, but let's start with the good stuff
00:01:09I don't know if I ever asked you about this
00:01:10But how did you first get into racing and what were some of the first horses who kind of had your heart? I?
00:01:16Got into racing basically because I grew up in Saratoga and
00:01:20When you grow up in Saratoga, you're one of two ways. We either love the track or you hate the track
00:01:24Yeah, there's no in-betweens people love it or they hate it and believe that there's a group of people that really don't like don't like it
00:01:31so, um, but from a young age, my dad used to bring me and
00:01:36Just kind of got hooked on it. And it's so funny because when you're younger
00:01:40your world is is
00:01:43Everything to you and you sometimes don't realize other people don't have you know a major
00:01:50One of the biggest tracks in the world in your backyard
00:01:53You know every summer the best horses the best jockeys the best trainers coming there
00:01:57and it was something that maybe we took for granted a little bit but
00:02:03To me it was always something I gravitated towards and I mean we used to go to the harness track
00:02:07we go, you know, obviously to go to the thoroughbred track and
00:02:11It just became something that
00:02:14You know, you catch the bug and that's hard to get away, you know
00:02:17You're one of the first people I knew that really humanized racing for me where I could put a face to the name that I
00:02:22Saw in the racing forum and kind of learned from someone who lived this sport instead of it was just a hobby for me at
00:02:27That time who were some of those people for you?
00:02:29Like when you were first coming out of the backstretch that made you want to do this for a living
00:02:34You know when I first started I mean I was getting
00:02:38It's amazing to think about this and of course it was a long time ago, but Saratoga
00:02:43Training during the offseason used to be for the guys who couldn't get stalls at the other tracks
00:02:50so there would be a guy, you know guys that you've never heard of at this point and
00:02:55They were always desperate looking for help and and that's how I kind of you know
00:02:59Got in got in my foot in the door because I didn't know anything. I didn't have anybody
00:03:03No family members that were involved in racing
00:03:06I didn't have any friends really that they were involved in it
00:03:08and I just kept going and I kept going and looking for a job and eventually someone hired me and I
00:03:15Wound up getting a job at the harness track for charit de vos dad Wow
00:03:19Which was my first real job. I I had you know, muck stalls and done some stuff for for other guys freelance
00:03:25But he gave me a job a job job and I was with Trotters and
00:03:29It's it's hard to believe things sometimes come first full circle because she wound up becoming an assistant trainer for me
00:03:36years later, which
00:03:38You know, it's just one of those racetrack stories
00:03:41Yeah, I mean one of the things I know about you that that's kind of interesting and how it might have shaped your training
00:03:46Career and just your career in racing in general was you were you an assistant to Alan Jerkins, correct the chief? Yes
00:03:51Yeah, so what was it like working for him?
00:03:54And how did that kind of hands-on education with a legend shape your view and of the industry
00:03:59You know, I worked for I guess that I'd work for some harness trainers. I worked for Tommy Skippington
00:04:04I worked for Nick Zito for a little while. I worked for Pete Ferriola at aqueduct when when he was rolling
00:04:11So I kind of had a pretty good
00:04:15A lot of different points of views a lot of different ways of training. I mean Nick was completely
00:04:20Dedicated to three-year-olds at that time. The Triple Crown was it for him. You don't want turf forces
00:04:25You didn't really want Phillies. That was it Pete had almost all claiming horses
00:04:31Skiffington had almost all grass horses at the time
00:04:34Skiffington is is like Chad Brown and Chris Clement. They are what Skiffington was
00:04:41To the game at that point. He was really the first
00:04:45All turf guy and he had some dirt on him
00:04:48All turf guy and he had some dirt horses, obviously
00:04:51But he was a guy that really concentrated on the turf and we had some Shadwell horses and a lot of horses from overseas
00:04:59So it was a really good education for me because I got a lot of different
00:05:04Viewpoints and a lot of different ways of training horses. I saw, you know complete polar opposites between
00:05:09Nick Zito, Tom Skiffington and Pete Ferriola. I also worked for Wayne Lucas for about six months to under Jeff
00:05:16At Belmont and
00:05:19Jerkins was kind of like the master's degree for me, right?
00:05:23he of course did everything completely different than everyone else did and
00:05:28it was kind of
00:05:30It was I was fortunate to get the job in that
00:05:33someone else's misfortune
00:05:35got in trouble with the law and
00:05:38a job opened up and jobs just didn't open up in that barn and I got I jumped on it and
00:05:45it was you know a
00:05:48life-changing experience
00:05:49When did you decide to go out on your own and and how long did it take you to kind of have enough owners where?
00:05:54You felt like you you could do it
00:05:56Well, you know how it happened for me
00:05:58It's kind of a funny story in that I'd worked for Allen for about five and a half six years
00:06:02In that time Jimmy had gone on his own because the first year I worked there Jimmy was there as well
00:06:08And then he got Earl Mack and a couple other owners gave him an opportunity
00:06:13So Jimmy went on his own so I was the head guy there for four years and I brought in Fernando a group
00:06:19Who who followed me for hell I think
00:06:2315 years
00:06:25But a an agent
00:06:27Joe produce your own who's a clock urn?
00:06:30you know sells by sells horses and
00:06:33Been a racetrackers whole life. He one day come up to me in the in the pack. I was schooling a horse and he said
00:06:39Would you be interested in and training horses and I was like, well, yeah, it's kind of
00:06:46Open-ended question. It's like well, yeah, you know
00:06:49Like, you know, let's have lunch tomorrow and I got a proposition for you
00:06:53So I had absolutely no idea what he was gonna tell me
00:06:57so we went to lunch across the street to talk in a town deli right outside the Belmont stable gate and
00:07:03He said I'm representing a big owner out of Kentucky's a guy that wants to get bigger
00:07:09and you might have heard of him and
00:07:12But he's got a farm. He's got a lot of horses and he wants a he wants one trainer
00:07:17He doesn't want to be the the fourth string and a guy in a big trainers barn
00:07:22And I said sure what's the guy's name's Ken Ramsey?
00:07:25so at the time, I mean
00:07:28He was a guy that had some pretty good horses, but he wasn't the behemoth that he wound up being
00:07:35Yeah, you know Eclipse Award leading owner and winning training titles
00:07:40It's not a thousand horses and then kitten all across the country
00:07:43Yes, unfortunately, I was I predated the kittens. I got the train to Ghazi's. Okay with Ghazi
00:07:51You know, he was a pretty decent stallion, but he wasn't exactly kittens joy
00:07:54yeah, but I went down there and you could see that he he was really eager to
00:08:01Expand and to do this and those kind of opportunities like just don't come around very often
00:08:08especially when
00:08:10You know
00:08:10You got to remember this was kind of predating the super trainer
00:08:14Where there really wasn't any super trainers at that point the way we see them now
00:08:20and
00:08:22I I said the chief I said, you know, I got an offer to train horses. What do you think and he's like
00:08:28Fly down meet the guy see what you like and you know make your decision
00:08:33So I went down with my dad and we spend a couple days. We went to the bar and we went to the
00:08:38Farm and you know, it just was one of those opportunities. It was too good to pass up and when I came back
00:08:43You know Alan Jerkin said to me Chuck
00:08:46You know, what do you think be honest and I was like, it's a great opportunity. He said listen
00:08:51it doesn't work out you can always come back and
00:08:56That was that was a
00:08:58That was how I got started and I had 14 horses to start with the first day
00:09:04We sent four of them back to the farm because they just weren't I mean more horses that we we wanted
00:09:12You know, it was a good opportunity and it was a great way to start I mean
00:09:16The first meet at Saratoga now, this was in May the first meet at Saratoga
00:09:20We won five races and that was back during the I think the five-week Saratoga meet
00:09:26So, you know we got the ball rolling right away and I mean as things turned out mr.
00:09:32Ramsey was was difficult and difficult on him
00:09:35He was difficult on self in a lot of ways and we wound up parting ways
00:09:40But it was a great opportunity and and I you know, I'll always be grateful for giving me that chance
00:09:46sometimes, you know, I might say I might blame him for forgetting Ian because
00:09:52training horses just turned out to be
00:09:55It's amazing just in that 20-year period that I trained because I stopped training in July of 2019 and I started in
00:10:02May of 99
00:10:05everything changed
00:10:07Everything changed and almost all of it is not a positive change. It's gotten much much much more difficult
00:10:14and
00:10:15It's you know, the game shrunk as well and it's one of those subtle things that we don't see
00:10:21You know, we look back now and you can look at the Jockey Club fact book and see the full crop like plunging
00:10:27But it doesn't feel like it from year to year to year to year, right?
00:10:30It's one of those things that like, you know, I remember in the early 2000s 2003 2004
00:10:38I would go to Keeneland and I would buy horses on the cuff
00:10:41Keeneland give me credit because we always paid and
00:10:44I would buy one see when I liked I buy one at the yearling sale and by the time I got home
00:10:49That was a soul. I had two three four owners that were all in
00:10:55Ten years later 15 years later, I
00:10:58wouldn't dare do it because I don't know if I'd have to beg people to get involved and and it just got to be
00:11:06It got to be not fun for me
00:11:08yeah, and if you're gonna do something seven days a week 365 days a year and
00:11:13Trainers take great risks. And and this is something that I don't think people understand in that
00:11:19We're privy to a lot of rules and laws
00:11:23based upon the the states that we race on very few people just run in one state and
00:11:28There's all kinds of tax laws. There's all kinds of laws with immigration laws
00:11:33You know the guys got in trouble in New York
00:11:37with the Department of Labor and
00:11:39I'm not defending him, but in a lot of ways they paid people the way that
00:11:45We've always paid people right?
00:11:48And there was no one I shouldn't say no one but
00:11:52people
00:11:53You know in a lot of cases didn't realize that when they were doing anything
00:11:57Well, and then you know once you're you're made aware that you can't do this anymore
00:12:01You can't pay people in this fashion. You have to have a clock blah blah blah
00:12:04then you have to take care of business, but um, you know, it was just
00:12:09where
00:12:10The law the Department of Labor and racing don't mesh very well because this is not a nine-to-five job
00:12:17Yeah, and you know that the care of a horse
00:12:21takes many forms and
00:12:23you need to make sure that
00:12:26You know your people are a you know showing up and doing the job properly, but you hate to rush people and
00:12:33And
00:12:34Economics matters. It's in the end. Everything comes down to it comes on the math. I said it's a lot
00:12:40everything comes on the math in the end and
00:12:43even for the big outfits, you can't just
00:12:47Take it on the chin expense-wise
00:12:50Because you know, we still have a hard time getting paid. Yeah
00:12:54There's no mechanism that really has been set up in racing to ensure that we get paid, right?
00:12:59And
00:13:01There's a lot of risk in in the workman's comp
00:13:04Some of the workman's comp rates and New York has done a great job. I mean, I'll give the credit to
00:13:10Rick Violet, especially who did a lot of the heavy lifting and
00:13:15Made the rates reasonable
00:13:17at some point guys were paying like 40% of the payroll to workman's comp crazy and
00:13:23it's just
00:13:25you know, there's something wrong when
00:13:27As a business owner
00:13:31You're better off if you're employed and this sounds horrible, but it's the truth if your employee
00:13:37Passes away
00:13:38Then if they're they're badly hurt
00:13:41Because if they happen to pass away that's covered under liability
00:13:45Liability insurance is relatively cheap. Yeah, and I mean it's an insane thing to think but that's how bad workman's comp
00:13:53Is in some ways and you know racing is a very dangerous sport very, you know, it's
00:14:00You're you're literally a second away from from being hurt badly at any time horses can kick they can jump they can fall on you
00:14:07You know the riders especially
00:14:10It's I mean look at you know, poor Cindy Weaver. I mean Cindy Weaver's head of the rider is
00:14:15you know on the racetrack and
00:14:19For something that happened to her
00:14:21Um
00:14:22It's just it just goes to show you because like I said, she's been around for a long time and she is good
00:14:29safe and
00:14:31You know, thank God that you know, she wasn't killed and it's just how many other businesses you go to work
00:14:38You know you go to work as an accountant. You don't have to worry about you know, maybe a thousand pound horse fall on any day
00:14:46Tell me the workman's comp rates aren't as exorbitant in the accounting field
00:14:51You have paper cuts
00:14:54You might staple your finger to something
00:14:59Anywhere you got to deal with the IRS full-time, that's that's no bargain either
00:15:03That's for sure. But you know, this is like, you know, you're you're a critic of racing
00:15:07I think this is why I wanted you on this show because you know
00:15:10You say a lot of really smart things not just on Twitter on your show
00:15:13But one of the things that I think you've had that kind of personal experience about is the super trainer thing
00:15:18And you know, I think you speak for a lot of men and women who have been squeezed out of the game
00:15:22It's just struggling to maintain a shed row
00:15:24Why has the problem of the super trainer gotten so much worse over the years and and what if anything can be done about it?
00:15:32You know, it's funny. Um
00:15:34I've said this
00:15:36for about 15 years now and
00:15:39It's it's just math in the end
00:15:42It's just a mathematical issue and that if you have a thousand horses per se on your backside and
00:15:49They're divided by five people and they all have 200 or they're divided by 50 people all have 20
00:15:56What do you think's gonna get you better racing?
00:15:5920, you know 20 trair 50 trainers trying to get in a race or or or five and
00:16:07Somewhere along the line and and I like it's funny
00:16:10You know, I appreciate you the kind words, but there are a lot of things that I said
00:16:13We're gonna happen that happened, but I gotta admit that one thing. I never saw happening was
00:16:22The the partnerships of the billionaires
00:16:26never saw that happening and
00:16:28It was one of the things that I always thought would prevent the super trainer thing from really taking off because hey
00:16:35I'm a billionaire. I own these 35 horses and I got to play second or third fiddle in my own barn
00:16:42Like I you know, I never foresaw those guys saying hey, we should all you know join together
00:16:48Yeah, because if I was a billionaire, I wouldn't be partners with anybody
00:16:52Like that's the whole point of being a billionaire
00:16:56Never saw that coming and that really kind of makes it difficult. I you know tracks ignored their own rules
00:17:05Like I said earlier, you know Naira
00:17:0835 years ago
00:17:09Saratoga was kind of a dumping grounds for the horses that they couldn't qualify for stalls at Belmont or aqueduct and now it's it's reversed
00:17:16and because of the size of the facility the
00:17:21Trainers really the bigger trainers don't have to say no and I don't blame the trainers for taking the horses
00:17:27I mean, they're playing by the the lack of rules that exist
00:17:31it just becomes a math issue and
00:17:34You want competitive races you have to create
00:17:39You have to create more more
00:17:42Outfits that have a chance because as it is now
00:17:46you know, it's like five or six guys and then you know, maybe one guy will get a horse here and there but it's just
00:17:53It makes it difficult. Well, it's you know, it hurts the wager. It's like yeah. Well, that's the thing
00:17:57It's not really good for anybody except for the super trainers
00:18:00It seems like and even then it could be it I could see it being a pain in the ass in some regards
00:18:04Yeah, the smaller fields like if you're an owner and you're now like third or fourth on the shelf, you know for a trainer
00:18:12That maybe has a new owner is trying to impress that owner and wants to get that horse out to the track first
00:18:17It really doesn't seem like it's good for anybody
00:18:19So what you know, is there a solution other than just limiting barn size like and that you know
00:18:24That brings in the whole argument about you know, whether or not that's restricting free enterprise
00:18:28And you know, I'm sure there's a lot of
00:18:30Libertarians on the backstretch that would have a problem with that. Like what do you think? Is that the only solution?
00:18:35Well free enterprise really doesn't isn't it really doesn't
00:18:40It's not pertinent because free enterprise basically deals with government and the government isn't involved in that
00:18:47The the rules that on stall limits were always track rules and tracks decided that they would relax them
00:18:54um, I
00:18:55Mean I thought of something a couple of months ago and
00:19:01I've been a critic of Heise
00:19:03And I've been a critic of Heise because and I believe in the concept. I think the concept is fine
00:19:08I mean the concept makes a tremendous amount of sense, but I believe Heise is
00:19:15Operating at about 30% of where they should be operating and not to go into too many other subjects
00:19:21But like, you know the jockey issues
00:19:23like why has
00:19:25Why has the using a they're using much much kinder sticks and be why is that such an issue?
00:19:32when
00:19:33Hurting is a far bigger
00:19:36Safety issue. I mean, it's it's not even like they're not even in the same ballpark. Yeah
00:19:42But you know one of the things the Heise could do being that you have to register your horse
00:19:48Now there you know, there's no getting around it
00:19:51I guess if you live in Texas get around it, but I don't know how long that's gonna last. Um, but
00:19:59You could set up rules saying that a
00:20:02Trainer is only allowed to to have a hundred registered
00:20:07horses in his and is
00:20:10Under his control. I mean it could be done and I'm sure that the lawyers will all roll their eyes and this and that but
00:20:18Every sport has limits
00:20:21Alabama can't have 300 guys
00:20:24Seems like they but you know, they can't have that and the problem isn't that the the super trainers
00:20:33Are getting the best horses the best trainers always got the best horse. That's not anything new
00:20:38Woody Stevens didn't train a bunch of made in 50s
00:20:41You know Charlie Whitman wasn't out claiming 5,000
00:20:45The problem is that those guys now have have everybody else too
00:20:48they have the second tier horses and they have the made in 30s and they have the claimers and and
00:20:54And that's really one of the problems and that that exists. I trained a lot of beaching horses over the years
00:21:01And now those those horses aren't even available. They go to the big trainers and it doesn't it doesn't make sense for the owners
00:21:09Because they're paying far more expense wise for horses that really don't
00:21:15It makes no sense. Yeah, you know, there's there's no point paying $150 a day plus plus plus for horses
00:21:21They're gonna run for made in 25. Yeah, all that's doing is you're helping the trainer boost his stats, which is fine
00:21:27But you know the it economically it makes no sense and in the game where most owners are kind of upside down
00:21:35It's one of the fascinating things to me
00:21:38A guy told me one time that
00:21:40He had a couple horses that he thought I would do well with but he didn't want to upset his trainer by taking them
00:21:45And I said, you know
00:21:47Let me see their PPS and he showed me their PPS and the trainer was Todd Bledger
00:21:51and one was a horse that was consistently getting beat for made in 20 and one was a four-year-old horse that never started and
00:21:58Wasn't you know wasn't working lights?
00:22:01And I said to him I said do you think Todd's gonna get mad about those two?
00:22:07He might have forgotten he even trains
00:22:11Please someone take these horses. Yeah, you think he's gonna say, you know what those guys I took those two
00:22:16I'm not gonna train his steak horses that good anymore
00:22:19I'm not I'm gonna do a bad job of them because I'm mad about those two and it's just
00:22:24It's it's just it's just a strange dynamic. Yeah, but but it is an issue
00:22:29but I mean, it's an issue that the game has to
00:22:33Everyone has to get on on board and and you know as well as I do in this business
00:22:39It's almost impossible. I
00:22:42Mean if we if the government said hey horse racing people, we're gonna we're gonna give you guys a billion dollars
00:22:49Yeah, here it is divided up
00:22:52No one would ever get anything because we would spend the next two years
00:22:56Arguing over who should get water the bill we lost in legal costs. They would say we would spend it on legal costs
00:23:02You know what I
00:23:04Ran, you know more horses than you did or blah blah blah blah. And I mean, that's the thing is like so many of these issues
00:23:12You know the other part of all I said too is that I think we're creating issues like the shoe rule like
00:23:18if
00:23:19If the state came out and said, okay
00:23:22You have to use only this brand of tire this this style of tire. No one can use anything different
00:23:30You saw all right fine, where do we get it? Well
00:23:32No one's used them ever ever before we don't use those to have to make them
00:23:38So, how do you know that they're better than the ones we're using because like the for the shoes the toe grips four millimeter toe
00:23:44Grab shoes and now I mean I trained for all these years about on the back side for you know
00:23:48My whole life. I had no idea how many millimeters of toe grip. Yeah
00:23:52You know wasn't like something that it's like you say. Oh, well, you know, how many millimeters is your toe grip?
00:23:58no, no one ever says yeah, and
00:24:00most everyone had gotten away from the big quarter horse toes and
00:24:06They used Queens place and there was no reason to change that. It's essentially the same thing and
00:24:12A blacksmith told me because I said to him I said what's the deal with the four millimeter toe grabs?
00:24:17He goes I have no idea. So what do you mean? You have no idea?
00:24:20He goes they don't exist Chuck. So what do you mean? You don't exist? He goes nobody makes four millimeter toe grabs
00:24:26And I'm like what and he goes yeah, that's that's why we're all you know sitting here saying well we have to use these
00:24:33But you know, we don't even have them and the manufacturers are struggling to make them
00:24:37And that's just something like like all the issues we have. Yeah
00:24:41Like that's a creation that recreated issues and that and someone asked me this morning. Um
00:24:47Talking about the the rich strike. Yeah, Rod Charlie controversy. So well if that horse had toe grabs on
00:24:54You know would it given him an advantage I said well it probably gave him an advantage I go but I
00:25:04Can't tell you and I don't think anyone else can tell you if it's a
00:25:09Half of 1% advantage or a 1% advantage or I mean, how would anyone know? Yeah
00:25:15This is we've been racing horses for a hundred years and this is never something that anyone ever cared about and it's just
00:25:23It's baffling because I don't know I can't answer the question because how would how would you know?
00:25:29What's the thing is like you like you say we're creating issues whether it's that whether it's arguing about LASIKs for 20 years
00:25:36Whether it's banning the whip in certain jurisdictions at certain tracks
00:25:40Like we're creating these things that within the industry
00:25:43like who gives a shit about toe grabs like I've been watching this week the
00:25:47Controversy from the rich strike hot rod Charlie thing and it went from people yelling at Sonny Leone for leaning over into
00:25:53Tyler Gaffney on which is a legitimately dangerous thing to now everybody's arguing about the shoes all day and all night on Twitter
00:25:59I'm like who could possibly care this much about this and I want to transition from that to me to what I think is the
00:26:05biggest issue
00:26:06in racing which is drug trainers and juicing trainers and
00:26:10I think that you know, we do a lot in racing without you know, fixing that core issue and
00:26:17You know that I kind of think of back to the service of Navarro stuff where
00:26:21Everybody in racing knew what they were doing. It was painfully obvious
00:26:25We all had to sit there with a straight face and pretend like their success and their win rates were legitimate
00:26:31Until the FBI came and busted down their doors and then we could all speak freely about what we all knew was going on
00:26:37So you're not a fan of hyzer. I
00:26:40Take that from you. But what do we do?
00:26:42What do we do because there are definitely still certain guys certain big-name trainers
00:26:46Well, I won't say so we don't get sued but certain big-name trainers who I am almost certain aren't cheating
00:26:52What do we do? Is there is there any solution?
00:26:54I'm not not I'm not not a fan of hyzer. I'm a fan of the way hyzer has been set up
00:27:02I think that's a that's a problem
00:27:04Listen, they could have asked me
00:27:05I would have sat in the corner and not said a word and took notes and given it to him and helped him out of
00:27:10Situations they got themselves into I
00:27:13Said this a long time since this whole thing kind of rolled out. I've watched football my entire life
00:27:19I played football for one year and I got buried by a pulling guard. I was 160 pound defensive end
00:27:27So that was it for me. My career was over, but I've watched football my whole life
00:27:31I am far from an expert on football. Yeah, and if Roger Goodell called me up and said Chuck
00:27:35I want you to set up rules
00:27:38For for the NFL I
00:27:42Would have to bring in coaches
00:27:46players on both sides of the
00:27:48field kickers
00:27:50specialists
00:27:51Referees, you know get it get a consensus of people and say all right
00:27:55What are the rules that you guys think can be improved on? What are the rules that you guys think?
00:28:02Are you know are no good? What are the rules you think should be expanded on?
00:28:08And how do we make this better?
00:28:11But no one's asked anyone that really knows what the hell they're doing and that's the problem
00:28:16I look at these boards and all very very credentialed people. They're very smart people
00:28:20but
00:28:24If you gave any of those people
00:28:26$50,000 and said you need to wager every penny of this for the next, you know month and
00:28:34Do you think any of them?
00:28:36Would not lose all the money
00:28:40Right and wagering is part of
00:28:44racing, so they're very smart people, but they don't know how to wager and
00:28:49None of them really know anything about the backside and even the veterinarians the vet you're getting people from from clinics. Yeah, and
00:28:57it's like
00:28:59This is the problem. I have is that why not make and I understand the politics behind it
00:29:06but at some point
00:29:08And this goes, you know, this is our whole country
00:29:11without any consensus forming without any compromise
00:29:15like we just get to these, you know in these corners whether it be politics on a state level a national level or
00:29:25you know horse racing horse racing has gotten a lot more political and
00:29:29It's a Lasix is bad. And this is good and you know
00:29:33Whips are bad and the animal rights people are gonna do this and
00:29:37and it just is like a
00:29:39political argument instead of a
00:29:42Business argument and in the end if you make the business stronger
00:29:47Then we're gonna have a better chance in the future
00:29:51if you weaken the business, then you're gonna have a less of a chance and and I'm coming at it now from I
00:30:00Mean I'm sure I have all that experience as being a trainer owner. I've bred horses. I sold horses. I bought horses
00:30:06So, I mean I have plenty of experience in that
00:30:09You know that that that area and lots of other people do but from the outside now looking from the outside in
00:30:16You say yourself
00:30:18What are we doing to move the game forward?
00:30:23That's not just lip service because yes Navarro in service
00:30:27We're mocking the game in their own ways, but
00:30:34We kind of got them by mistake
00:30:37Yeah, and what are we doing now? It's going to change that
00:30:43because I don't know and maybe there's some grand plan that there will but
00:30:50Surveillance on the ground is the first thing that has to happen testing is never gonna be
00:30:57We're not testing humans
00:30:59we're testing animals and
00:31:02The unfortunate part is that um, they can't talk
00:31:07so
00:31:08We know where they are 23 and a half hours a day. I mean, it shouldn't be that hard. Yeah
00:31:14You know, but I think a lot of tracks
00:31:18Because it comes out that attracts in a lot of ways a lot of times the racing commissions
00:31:22They're just not equipped to do it. I mean, Florida hell
00:31:25we don't even you know, we just got a racing Commission like a couple months ago, they had a
00:31:32division of parimutuel wagering as part of the division of
00:31:36business
00:31:37Which had 38 separate chapters under the state of Florida. So
00:31:43This wasn't gonna ever be an organization that could have a real stringent
00:31:50Investigative force they just
00:31:52didn't have the budget and
00:31:54you know, we
00:31:57We struggle in
00:31:59the legislature's all over the country and
00:32:02I mean think about the horse racing. Let's call them with their slot machines in Kentucky
00:32:09It was a little dicey
00:32:11That those things were gonna get passed and and it did
00:32:15Getting through obviously to the to the benefit of the industry, but it was not a slam-dunk. That's in Kentucky
00:32:23And what racing really can't afford to do is get involved in politics
00:32:29because
00:32:30We're just gonna be
00:32:32We're just gonna be the surface on the wave and it's gonna take us where it takes us because we not we're not strong enough
00:32:37We don't have the lobbying power. We don't have the voting power. We don't have the organizing power that
00:32:44literally everyone else does
00:32:47and
00:32:48It's just it's a little bit tricky but you know, the tracks need to come to the table and do it
00:32:53I I just don't know
00:32:55how
00:32:56And you know, I'm hoping that Heise does do that because that's something that really needs to be done. I
00:33:04mean listen rumors have been part of this business since
00:33:08The 20s the spit box is known as the spit box because they used to put heroin underneath horses tongues
00:33:15That's why the that's where the test barn is and we're talking in the 30s and 40s, you know
00:33:20Wow, so there's there's always gonna be people trying to to get an advantage
00:33:25And like you said, it's what are we really doing? I
00:33:29Don't know. Yeah, I mean the only thing I can think of is, you know, the parks raids, you know
00:33:34That's something that I've seen that's like an actual tangible thing
00:33:37That's being done to stop people from using syringes or batteries or whatever and just you know last week
00:33:43It was their biggest weekend of the year the Pennsylvania Derby and the fact that people were still trying to cheat and that they caught
00:33:49Them was like, you know in one on one hand
00:33:52It's it's pretty sad and a pretty big indictment of the people we have training in this business
00:33:57Some of the people on the other hand
00:33:59I think it's a positive development that even though he's a negative for headline in the short term long term
00:34:04Like you say surveillance, that's how you catch people because they're always gonna be ahead of the test
00:34:10Yeah, and we don't even know what those guys had yeah, you can't have syringes that's illegal period yeah, but
00:34:16We don't know if the headaches promising in those things and they were using them because they were just cheap
00:34:20Yeah, and you know like that's the whole that that's what got Rick Dutrow in trouble
00:34:26And you know Dutrow got an unreasonable sentence
00:34:30versus
00:34:31You know many other people with far less transgressions
00:34:35It's difficult though for me to explain to people why
00:34:40I'll say her name Linda Rhines is still training when her license was revoked six months ago or eight months ago
00:34:46and of course the reason is because as a
00:34:50citizen of the United States
00:34:52She has rights and the rights allow her to appeal or get an injunction and continue to train and appeal
00:35:00The decision which is made by a state body government body, so it's gonna take a long time
00:35:05I understand that I get it, but you have a hard time explaining to people
00:35:09why a person is still here and
00:35:12It's it's it's not just here
00:35:16Look at Kristoff Sumyon right the elbows the guy he gives them the flagrant to foul on the backside
00:35:23Right they let him ride yard card, which is the biggest card of the year yeah now
00:35:28We read today. He's coming here, and he's riding the Keeneland and in the the the maker's mark
00:35:34And you say to yourself man this guy's business
00:35:41Where's the penalty and this is a
00:35:44Obviously happens in a different jurisdiction in France and and they gave him two months on that same day
00:35:49Yeah, it was but it was two months, but in and it even goes back to
00:35:54The rules that we have here for jockeys when they get suspended where they're allowed to ride in
00:36:00Designated races yeah, you know the top guys. I mean Mike Smith
00:36:05He probably prefer to be suspended all the time where you can only ride
00:36:14I'm suspended click
00:36:16Suspended click
00:36:23Jockeys can pick what days they want to be suspended like imagine if that was any other sport and like you had
00:36:28Fernando Tatis was like I'll be suspended in the offseason
00:36:33Let me see how the season plays out
00:36:38Yeah, it's it's
00:36:41It's
00:36:43It's it's difficult to explain and I
00:36:46Mean I've been a proponent, and it's it's not easy to do
00:36:49I mean there are things a lot of times we talk about well. We should do this. We should do that
00:36:53We should do this. It's not always easy, and that's the one beauty of hyzer
00:36:57Is that we can supersede all the states right? I'm sick of hearing about
00:37:04Scott Cheney telling me about the all in California the rules of racing say you can do this
00:37:09You know you can basically annihilate horses out of the gate because of the rules of racing, California
00:37:13Well, why are the rules of racing not the same everywhere?
00:37:16That's that that should be the one basic thing because essentially all of our racing no matter what track
00:37:22It's at is the same they all leave from a gate
00:37:25They'll run around a turn for the most part and and they go to the wire
00:37:30Like why that that would be the easiest of all the rule changes to to make and I mean
00:37:38I've been a proponent the hyzer should have taken that from from the start and
00:37:46It should be like the NFL or the NBA and yet there's issues in those sports, too, but the difference is
00:37:54That they are trying to do it
00:37:58Professionally, and we have this scatterbrained system. It doesn't work. There's no oversight. There's no
00:38:06You know you made a call you made a DQ or you didn't make the DQ
00:38:10There's no explanations that are going to a central office that's saying well you guys
00:38:15You did the right thing in this big case or no you missed it. You should have done it this way
00:38:21without that
00:38:24without
00:38:26Supervision without oversight without being on a common
00:38:30rule book we're gonna have these these
00:38:34Situations where
00:38:35As a player you and me and everyone out there
00:38:38We're watching this race go off at this track and this race go for that track and then this race goes off at this track
00:38:45so for us our horse racing world is all these races and to say that
00:38:51In this state you're allowed to do this on you know hurting wise in this state. You're not
00:38:57That to me is a bigger deal than if
00:39:01Butte was a 24-hour drug in one state and a 48-hour drug in the other state because and yeah
00:39:06No one really knows that
00:39:08Something that happens. It's a given. It just is very tough for a guy to understand
00:39:13Why one horse was taken down when one horse wasn't and a lot of times the explanations just aren't
00:39:20You know did they come in there? It's like man
00:39:23I'd still don't get why they did it and you know Pat Cummings my friend is a huge proponent
00:39:28Yeah of the category argued about it last week on the show. He was on the show. Maybe we talked about it
00:39:33I said Pat I said, you know, we should do start a cottage business
00:39:36We should buy life insurance for the jockeys. Nice. These guys are gonna be like if you're gonna tell them hey, you know
00:39:43We're gonna we're gonna suspend you or we're gonna take days, you know, we're gonna give you days
00:39:47But you know, we're not gonna take the horse down. I mean our biggest races will be like
00:39:51He'd be like roller down and I made the exact same point to him and you know
00:39:55He's very in favor of those rules
00:39:58Well, you like you're saying there's a lot of ambiguity and not not not a lot of uniformity
00:40:03but I think there are certain things that should be black and white and should be
00:40:06Punishable by for majors periods of time like I think about the Peter Miller thing
00:40:11in California when he takes a vacation quote-unquote air quotes if we're listening to the
00:40:17Audio version of this and then he's back in six months and it turns out he was training all along and he gets a seven
00:40:23Day suspension. I don't want to hear about the CHRB statutes and all these all these
00:40:29Technical reasons for why a guy who was scamming the betting public as blatantly as you can possibly be now
00:40:37Listen everybody in the know
00:40:38Knew what was going on again?
00:40:40Like everybody who had any kind of inkling who Peter Miller is and who Ruben Alvarado is knew what was happening?
00:40:46but if you're a newer player, you don't really know those guys you were being scammed by
00:40:50By the the the racing form telling you this was being trained by a different trainer who was not a leading trainer in, California
00:40:57Why on earth can't that be more than seven days? When is something so black and white?
00:41:03Yeah, I remember when I worked at Yonkers
00:41:06I worked when I got out of the University of Arizona race track program
00:41:09My first job was at Yonkers in the harness track. I was assistant racing secretary and
00:41:14If you were a guy that was suspended and
00:41:18Learned training and you you you know had a beard trainer what they call
00:41:22Yeah, like they would rule you off like pretty much indefinitely if they found that out seven days. He got
00:41:29yeah, and
00:41:32Racing just does a poor job of of
00:41:35just explaining what's going on and
00:41:40There are
00:41:41There are situations and this was again what I think Heise should be
00:41:46Involved in this in that you have a lot of states have
00:41:51Maximum penalties that they can give they can't find a person more than X amount. They can't
00:41:56give a person more than X amount of days and
00:42:00That makes it difficult. Uh, I mean, you know, we're going back to
00:42:05Guys who are ruled off at one track and not ruled off at another track. Yeah, I'm private, you know private property rights
00:42:13Those are difficult things to understand and and that's you know, that's something that
00:42:19that racing because there's no central structure really struggles with because a lot of the tracks are very very sensitive I
00:42:27Mean, you know like racing in this business. This is the most super sensitive business I've ever seen in my life
00:42:33Yeah, it's just people you want to be a real-world sport and I've said all the time with people on Twitter and it gets met
00:42:39We're not really a sport. Oh
00:42:43What went on today at the racetrack at parks and Delaware or wherever
00:42:47No one's going to watch that for the sport of it. This is a gambling activity
00:42:53This is a state sanctioned wagering activity that just happens to have a race involved
00:42:59Like sure the Breeders Cup the Derby the top horses different story people are always gonna watch those kind of races
00:43:07And they bet they bet him like mad. Yeah, this is a gambling country. Yeah, and it's it's
00:43:14So many years we had to like turn the other cheek and you know, we've got the NFL telling us, you know
00:43:20Yeah, we don't believe in gambling. Meanwhile, you know quickly that turned
00:43:23Meanwhile if a team puts out a
00:43:26An injury report and a guy isn't really injured. They'd find him like a half million dollar. No, I'd beat his girlfriend
00:43:33Oh guys are Jimmy the Greek now like Phil Simms. All these guys are Jimmy the Greek now and two years ago. It was verboten
00:43:39That's amazing
00:43:41It was always kind of like you were pretending like yeah, but um, I mean it's a gambling country
00:43:49Even now we we don't do enough
00:43:54and you know we talk about
00:43:57This is a new issue too. This is something that didn't happen
00:44:0120 years ago the late odds changes. Yeah, and
00:44:05The first thing that we talked about was the first thing that we talked about was the second thing that we talked about was
00:44:11This is something that didn't happen 20 years ago the late odds changes, yeah
00:44:17and the frustration and
00:44:21And I know what some of the guys say some of the sharper guys are correct in that. Yes, if you read the daily double
00:44:27Uh probables or sometimes the exact the probables horses are that are overlays are going to get bet but they're getting bet because
00:44:34There's guys with algorithms betting
00:44:37and
00:44:38Like at least naira i'll give them credit for for shutting them out of the wind pool because the wind pool is really where it's most
00:44:46um
00:44:47Obvious, yeah, especially when it's on the screen
00:44:50At the top of the stretch and the horse clicks down from four to one to five to two
00:44:55You know, it just gets people it's the mental thing because this is a mental sport
00:45:01I mean, you know as well as I do you go through a long losing period and you're handicapping and your betting gets affected because
00:45:08you know, you're just
00:45:10You know
00:45:11That's why like it's like for me. It would be impossible to do this professionally. Yeah, because I can't take the losing streaks
00:45:19It's hard. I i'm like
00:45:22I'm kind of like a level better and I don't push the envelope too much
00:45:28um, even when i'm winning I don't just start, you know, uh
00:45:32I'm comfortable with with you know
00:45:33$100 to win. I don't start betting 500 to win because i'm on a good streak and you probably should
00:45:40Itp will probably tell me i'm it'll give me all the uh
00:45:45all the reasons why i'm right or wrong, but
00:45:47You're such a twitter guy itp
00:45:50Nicknames for people on twitter. I don't can't I can't even believe I know who that is, but I do I do you do know
00:45:56Yeah, he's am I famous? Yeah, and you know, the funny thing about him is is his his his delivery is horrendous
00:46:03But his uh, a lot of what he says is 100 true. Yeah. No, he's a sharp. I'll be honest
00:46:09He helped my play. Yeah
00:46:11I remember, uh, you know last year I did really well at the metal lands at the the harness not the thoroughbreds last year
00:46:18I did really well with the harness
00:46:20and
00:46:21I made a couple scores and I did it because
00:46:24I didn't spread
00:46:25and I I kind of you know
00:46:28Uh pushed the envelope a little bit and and made my plays and made them stick and and they hit you know
00:46:34And so I won I won I won more. Yeah, and uh, you know that that's that's part of you know
00:46:41Gambling, but but the mental aspect of seeing odds change. It just gives you
00:46:47that
00:46:48the the first thought process in your mind is always
00:46:52Somebody's betting after yeah, somebody's somebody's past posted
00:46:55um
00:46:57it's is it that far out of the realm of possibility in 2022 with
00:47:01People are hacking into everything that someone couldn't hack into our system
00:47:06Are better except are we saying that that the the paramutual systems that we're using in horse racing or are?
00:47:15stronger than banks and stronger than the defense system department and
00:47:19And all these other places that have been hacked into ballpony would say no
00:47:23Yeah, I mean listen that's
00:47:25It's it's such an interesting case because it's the only it's only bet
00:47:28It's only winning bet you can make on anything where you feel like you lost
00:47:32Like that's a special thing to be able to make winning betters feel like they lost
00:47:37Only racing could could get it could concoct that
00:47:40experience for for betters
00:47:42But yeah
00:47:43it's interesting to hear you talk about your your wagering because
00:47:45You know, I I know you from hanging out with you and your dad at saratoga
00:47:48I know your dad was a big handicapper
00:47:51You know, how how has your handicapping style evolved over time?
00:47:54Like I know you're not technically supposed to bet when you're a trainer
00:47:56But i'm sure you would place a couple bets down. What how has it evolved over time?
00:48:00Well, I think you're allowed to bet as a trainer
00:48:02You just can't bet against your own horse in your same room. How could that possibly be policed? I mean, whatever it can't
00:48:08It's not I mean, honestly guys like julio. Kanani. He was probably the third biggest better outside of california when he was
00:48:15rolling, um
00:48:17but no, I was never, you know, I was never like that, but
00:48:20uh
00:48:21Now I have a lot more time when I was when you're training. You just don't have that much time, right?
00:48:25You know you're getting up in ungodly hours
00:48:28You know, you're you're working and and then like I I was never a person that could sleep in the daytime. I couldn't nap
00:48:34So, you know you'd be up all day go back to the races
00:48:37Then if you had clients or you had something going on, you know, you wanted to have
00:48:41a little bit of a life, you know, you went out to dinner or something next to you know, you're home nine ten o'clock and
00:48:46And and you're starting all over again, so now I have more time to look at the pps then
00:48:52Then uh, then I did then but um, you know, I try to concentrate on on a few tracks. I i'm not
00:49:00Like barry my partner on the going at circle show. I know you've had him on
00:49:04He's amazing
00:49:05He can handicap literally any track in the world and win
00:49:09I'm, not saying he wins all the time, but you know i'm saying he's profitable at the australian harness
00:49:15But he he cashes tickets and it's crazy. He called me or he texted me one day. It was like
00:49:20Real late at night embarrassingly late at night for us to be texting each other talking about gambling
00:49:25But it was past midnight and he's like dude. They're not paying off this this I hit the try at the
00:49:32you know
00:49:33Australian b I was like what?
00:49:35Yeah, it's been 45 minutes and they're not paying. I think they're not gonna pay me
00:49:39Yeah
00:49:41Anytime you get an australia a b or c, you know, it's it hasn't that wasn't that wasn't that wasn't the plan a
00:49:47For that day's betting, you know, one of the funniest things talking about my dad and my dad's funny because my dad likes the little tracks
00:49:56He says, you know, I got no shot to big tracks. He goes, you know, there's guys they're watching every angle
00:50:01I got they got drones watching the horses and you know, he goes so so he likes the finger lakes and indiana grand
00:50:07He's got this indiana grand fetish
00:50:10and um
00:50:12he uh, he watches the races and he watches the replays and all that but
00:50:17you know, sometimes he has trouble sleeping and
00:50:20um, I remember this is about I don't know 10 years ago
00:50:24and
00:50:25My mom pulled me aside. I came to saratoga for a visit. My mom pulled me aside
00:50:30She said you're all serious like, you know, we have to talk about your father
00:50:33So i'm thinking oh man, it's like a health issue because my dad would be like the last person
00:50:37You know to tell you anything's wrong
00:50:39So i'm thinking what's wrong, you know?
00:50:41Oh, no. No, he's he's healthy as a horse. He goes. I think he has a gambling problem
00:50:46I said what?
00:50:47Just I caught him the other night
00:50:50About two o'clock in the morning. I was like, yeah, and he goes he was up betting races from new zealand
00:50:57And I was like, okay
00:50:58Like why do you think he has a problem?
00:51:00Chuck what does he know about new zealand? He doesn't know anything. How do you know anything about new zealand racing?
00:51:05He's he's up at two o'clock in the morning betting I think he has a gambling problem I said mom
00:51:11My dad my dad, you know
00:51:13He'll he'll fish through the the place pools to see like if a horse is underlaid in the place pools
00:51:19And some of those late night races sometimes the whole place pool is like 200 bucks
00:51:23I said mom he bets like 10 bucks a night. I think if this is gambling problem is his biggest problem. I think you're pretty good
00:51:31Because he doesn't handle very much money and you know
00:51:35And you know, so I told him and he's like, well, what else am I supposed to do at two o'clock in the morning?
00:51:40That's only natural
00:51:42Indiana grand and new zealand. That's the hand because that's the handle split
00:51:46It's so funny people say oh well racing, you know hasn't been brought into the new era
00:51:52I mean five o'clock in the morning this morning. I'm i'm looking at
00:51:56At happy valley races go i'm like home, you know
00:51:59Like you could be walking down the road at three o'clock in the morning betting races from korea
00:52:04Yeah, like 20 years ago
00:52:06man
00:52:06Wasn't happening when when when I was a kid
00:52:09Oh, man, we used to have to the things we used to have to do to make a bet
00:52:14The places we have to have to go I remember on on palm sunday
00:52:19I drove from belmont
00:52:21to um this and this was
00:52:23This was I was working for pete ferriola. I believe I I drove from from uh from belmont to uh,
00:52:30garden state
00:52:31to bet uh
00:52:33Some horse in california who had gotten a bad trip and there's some some kind of thing
00:52:37So I had to drive all the way because meadowlands wasn't open either that day
00:52:41So I drove all the way to garden state to make a bet on the horse who probably you know who lost I believe as well
00:52:47but I mean to think
00:52:49nowadays
00:52:51You don't have to do anything. We could make a bet right now. Well, you said you still can't on palm sunday here
00:52:56This like puritanical nonsense law is still in effect in new york
00:53:00Where you're not allowed to even open your wagering account on palm sunday for easter as if this is salem, massachusetts
00:53:07Someone explain that to me, please, you know, I went to catholic school and I don't remember palm sunday being that big of a deal. Yeah
00:53:15Even if you're religious like come on
00:53:17Palm sunday is it's like it's you know, like all right, I get easter, but I mean, I mean on sunday. It's like
00:53:24Yeah, well and the garden state story is funny because you know
00:53:29Friends of mine have taken that bus down to atlantic city plenty of times. So there's there's all sorts of you know
00:53:35Commonalities there but we got to get out of here just because we're taking up too much time and i'm you know
00:53:39I love talking to you
00:53:40But I wanted to be able to plug going in circles before we go because it's a great show
00:53:44And you and barry do a great job
00:53:46What what made you want to get into the world of podcasting other than how notoriously lucrative podcasting is?
00:53:53That's right, I mean
00:53:56We're doing this from uh from the isle of man because i'm ducking the irs
00:54:02Actually, uh, jason bidas, um, jose lescano's agent who's a friend of mine for forever and he actually was my first employee when I
00:54:12Went to he was working for jerkins
00:54:14And he'd worked for shug and rich shosper before and when I went to kentucky
00:54:18He went with me so him and I he was my first my first employee
00:54:21but
00:54:22um
00:54:23He called me up. It was right during the pandemic. Uh,
00:54:27like late
00:54:28April so about a month into it when we were just like everyone was totally bored out of their mind. Yeah
00:54:34And he's like you should do a podcast and I was like, yeah
00:54:38So I didn't even know how to do it, you know
00:54:39I didn't know how to get on or or anything and I said, let me look it up. So I found um
00:54:46The app anchor which is real easy to do. I mean it's like idiot proof believe me. Yeah, I could figure it out
00:54:52Anybody can figure out it. It's super easy to do
00:54:55and um, you know, we we
00:54:57I did one and and uh, I think the first show I did was like 10 minutes
00:55:00I don't remember what I talked about. It's rambled like I do
00:55:03but um
00:55:06A couple weeks into it
00:55:08um
00:55:09I was you know, I talked to barry and we met online
00:55:13Yeah, I mean we met uh through through twitter facebook
00:55:17Um another racing twitter love story. Yeah, man
00:55:20Barry asked me, you know ask questions trying to
00:55:24to uh, you know get answers for things. There's a lot of things that racing does
00:55:28um
00:55:29poorly and one of the things is is really educating like people as to what the hell is actually going on and
00:55:36Uh, and I think again, that's that's a lack of a central, you know
00:55:41A central body to to do that
00:55:43Everyone kind of thinks well the other person should do it or you know
00:55:46This group should do it or why should we do it?
00:55:47But but anyways barry and I met and and um, I was like man
00:55:51This guy is is a really sharp guy and he's he's well spoken and we had a lot of other, you know
00:55:57commonalities as well. Um
00:56:01And I was like, hey, you know, would you want to
00:56:03Do you want to do the show with me?
00:56:05So we did a test run and it went really well and it got a lot of good feedback
00:56:09So I said well, you're you're the co-host
00:56:12There you go. The pay is not great. But uh, at least we're not going to put you in a different tax bracket
00:56:18but um, no, it's been great and and uh, we try to cut it down a little bit and
00:56:23we get going sometimes and we get rolling but um, I used to do two shows, but it just got to be
00:56:31There's so many podcasts out there. Yeah, and a lot of there's a lot of good podcasts. They just get lost sometimes
00:56:37Yeah, and a lot of people interview do interviews and they're great and actually it's something that's probably underrated and I know we all make
00:56:44fun of them a little bit and the guys who make picks sometimes they just get to be like
00:56:49tedious
00:56:50but um
00:56:52Uh
00:56:53It just is you know, like for us it's just us talking basically. Yeah, and you know, we try to
00:56:59I try to bring the
00:57:01That educational part up to try to explain like why or why this is or why that is and you know
00:57:07Sometimes i'm right. Sometimes i'm wrong, but at the very least you're going to get uh,
00:57:11the viewpoint of someone that has experience and i'm going to try to explain why
00:57:16This should work or why this won't work and and barry's got a lot of strong opinions too. And and the handicapping wise, uh
00:57:22He comes up with horses man, and i'm telling you sometimes like I I give up turf sprints
00:57:26I just don't even handicap him anymore. I just said barry just just you know
00:57:30Tell me what to do. No, tell me tell me how to get live here because they just
00:57:35they just I I
00:57:37I can't figure out what to do like my handicapping theory is
00:57:41I like to figure out the race and how it's going to set up and who should be where they should be and fraternities
00:57:48It just seems like it's chaos, you know, and i'm like
00:57:52How did that horse wind up on the lead? Yeah
00:57:54Uh, but uh, no anyways golden circles we do we tape it monday night and it's usually out late monday night tuesday
00:58:01um, we're we're we're playing around with doing some video and
00:58:05um
00:58:07maybe uh
00:58:09We'll get uh patty to be my consultant
00:58:14I do want to have you on because um
00:58:17you know, it's uh, you're a good dude and and you know, we have uh,
00:58:22We've known each other for a long time and it's uh,
00:58:25You know, I respect your opinion and you have a different take on a lot of stuff
00:58:29And I think that's that's really the best is when people have different takes if we always agree on everything
00:58:34Larry loonan's one of our big listeners. Larry's a great dude
00:58:37And larry's been around forever and he's like you guys agree too much. So every once in a while we have to come up
00:58:44A disagreement but uh, and i've been writing uh, the going to circles digest which I did every day during the
00:58:51Saratoga meet and I was kind of blown away by how much support I got for that man. We we had
00:58:561500 almost some some days 2000 downloads. That's crazy, you know great
00:59:02it was uh
00:59:04It was fun doing it got by the end of the meet. It was it was a little tiring because it's just you know
00:59:09Every day i'm old. Yeah, but um, at least it's not six days a week anymore. It's only five
00:59:14All those witty things I have to say, you know, I ran out of them
00:59:17I don't like driver's day. But uh, no, it was great. And I still do that on fridays. Um,
00:59:24but um, okay going that's going in circles, uh digest dot substack.com
00:59:30which is a mouthful but
00:59:32but um
00:59:33That's great
00:59:34And you you should be be getting that kind of recognition for your for your twitter feed as well
00:59:39Because you're one of the most educational guys in the business and it's great
00:59:43I think to have those those thoughts into one place whether it's the substack or whether it's the podcast
00:59:48But we got to wrap this up because someone's gonna cut chuck's lights off
00:59:51I think I think chuck didn't pay his electric bill or something. It's getting very dark
00:59:58And i'm starting not to recognize chuck as much as I did in the beginning of the interview but my guy
01:00:03Uh, I love you. It's always good to talk to you
01:00:05Say hi to your dad because I really miss him and thanks for coming out man
01:00:09Thank you for having me. It was great. I appreciate it. Absolutely. Great time awesome
01:00:13Thank you
01:00:16Last time on better things I came up
01:00:18Heartbreakingly empty beating a neck out of the pick three. Thanks to another
01:00:22Uncompetitively ridden new york turf race. Stop me if you've heard that before
01:00:25I did give out dancing buck in the belmont turf sprint if you listen carefully
01:00:29So i'll count that as a dub for the show and my pride even if the ledger doesn't reflect it
01:00:34Probably should have just gone all in both legs in the pick three where I singled dancing buck
01:00:39So basically while I haven't had an outstanding day since the first installment of the series
01:00:43I have been over the target just about every episode but find myself with a small deficit
01:00:4895.65
01:00:50Thanks to a combination of bad luck questionable wagering decisions and the restrictions of having specific races to bet
01:00:57Such as often the horse horse players lament good opinion middling results
01:01:02But there's always another opportunity tomorrow if you can remain clear-headed this week
01:01:07That opportunity takes us to beautiful historic bucolic. Keeneland
01:01:11Keeneland fall meet is one of the most special and scenic race meets in america
01:01:15If not the world as dear to my heart as the belmont fall championship meet and even belmont at the big a are
01:01:21The backdrop and the racing at keeneland in the fall are both second to none
01:01:25The quality is certainly evident in looking at the fields for our six breeders cup winning year in challenge races
01:01:31This saturday and sunday will start with the saturday races
01:01:33The grade two thoroughbred club of america stakes the grade one claymore and breeders futurity and the grade one coolmore turf mile
01:01:40The three races which can all be seen on cnbc from five to six eastern this saturday october 8th
01:01:46Feature fields of 9 12 and 12 as part of an all graded stakes pick five
01:01:51It also includes the grade one first lady and grade two woodford. I'm going to keep it simple saturday
01:01:57Just pick one horse to bed each of the first two races and then play a pace dependent five horse exacta box
01:02:03In the turf mile try to get lucky there in the tca
01:02:06I'm playing the race to fall apart a bit with three or four speeds signed on
01:02:10I'm taking a shot with a bomb and number one little tootsie
01:02:13Great name by the way
01:02:14She she might be a bit too slow to win this but she ran the best race of her life too back in the groupie
01:02:19Doll at ellis where she made a sustained wide bid all the way around the far turn
01:02:24She kept on well enough in the stretch to win it by a length and a half
01:02:27She was a distant third in the locust grove stakes last out at churchill
01:02:30But that was a salty field and that was going two turns. This is clearly a one-turn filly
01:02:35I thought about going with number two palm cottage, but she has three speeds to her outside after two wire-to-wire wins
01:02:41She'll have to work out a trip
01:02:43Whereas little tootsie can just drop back from the rail and make one run
01:02:47She'll be at least three times the price of palm cottage
01:02:49So i'm betting little tootsie twenty dollars to win in place
01:02:52She should be in the 15 to 20 to one range. So if she does she does get there it's going to be worthwhile
01:02:58I'm also playing the breeders futurity to fall apart as well
01:03:01Although it's a bit more difficult to come from far back in the short stretch
01:03:05Going a mile and a 16th on the dirt at keeneland
01:03:07That's why i'm interested in number 10 lost ark was a half brother to presumptive champion nest
01:03:13He's got enough speed to lay close without being burnt up if they go 22 and change and 46 and change up front
01:03:19He was pretty green in the sapling at monmouth last out which worries me a little bit
01:03:23But he also exploded away with powerful strides in the stretch
01:03:26Despite that and he looks for all the world like a horse who's going to appreciate any added distance
01:03:31Both physically and in pedigree as an addition to nest
01:03:34He's also a half to last year's 10 furlong big cap winner idol. He draws outside
01:03:39I think the kickback he got from the inside post in the sapling added to his greenness
01:03:44So I think flabby and pratt should be able to keep him in the clear
01:03:47I think despite his relation to nest he's going to get lost on the board a bit with a bunch of highly regarded cults
01:03:53Big figures and top from top barns in here hoping for somewhere in the eight to one to ten to one range
01:03:58So the bet here is 30 to win in place or number 10 lost ark the coolmore turf mile is a dizzying race
01:04:05I mean stop me if i'm repeating myself
01:04:07There's a lot of speed sign on number one classic causeway number two smooth like straight
01:04:12Number five mason number 10 some hot locket some like it hot brown and number 11 emirati all should be vying for the lead
01:04:20Terrific terrific betting race where you can make a case for a lot of them. So i'm not going to overthink it
01:04:25I'm, just going to box the five horses. I like best in the exacta playing against the main contenders like santine
01:04:31Who could get caught up on or close to a hot hot pace?
01:04:35So the play here is a five dollar exacta box number three order of australia number six
01:04:41Ivar number eight annapolis number nine casacrede and number 12 set piece for a total of one hundred dollars
01:04:47Total invested for saturday's races and even two hundred dollars
01:04:52Sunday, we've got three more winning year in qualifiers the indian summer stakes
01:04:56Which is in the juvenile turf sprint division the grade two castle and key bourbon stakes in the juvenile turf division
01:05:01And the grade one judd mott spinster stakes in the distaff division all of which can be seen from five to six eastern
01:05:08On cnbc
01:05:09It's gonna be hard to make real money in the indian summer or the spinster with legitimate heavy favorites in each
01:05:15But this is the last call for breeders cup challenge races. So let's give it a go in the indian summer
01:05:20It's very hard to get past the philly number five love brains
01:05:23Whose three races tower over the rest of this field?
01:05:26The only potential knock on her that I can see is she appears to have missed the work
01:05:30Between her september 11th and september 24th breezes, but that's not enough to make me play against her for real
01:05:37I'll bet a twenty dollar exact five love reigns over number seven known a hudson number six
01:05:42Monsieur coco and number 11 private creed for a total of sixty dollars in the bourbon
01:05:47I'm on number nine gigante who was very very impressive winning the kitten's joysticks by six and three quarter lengths last out
01:05:54i'm hoping the race stays intact and and there's no also eligibles that draw in because
01:05:59The only other early speed resides on the also eligible list and with the 12 set to go as is
01:06:04Gigante is supposed to be nice and loose on the lead underneath him. The possibilities are pretty much endless. It's a really good betting race
01:06:11Fascinating in fact, so i'm not going to get cute
01:06:13I'm going to do a 50 cent trifecta nine with all with all for a total of 55
01:06:19In the five horse spinster the favorites are legitimate and number one malathot number three latruska who are an incredible
01:06:2627 for 39 combined in their careers talk about wind machines
01:06:30The only possible alternative is the progressive number four played hard was one three of her last four
01:06:36She posted a career high 99 buyer and winning the locust grove by five and three quarter lengths last out
01:06:41I like her in particular because I don't think latruska
01:06:44It's quite the same horse this year as last year
01:06:46And if not played hard is going to get the jump. It's choosing me the first of pounds
01:06:50She's going to get the jump on malathot. So I do think she's a little bit interesting again with a five horse field
01:06:55It'll be tough to get paid
01:06:56But I think played hard considering the the presence of the two favorites will probably be a solid seven two or four to one
01:07:02So i'm playing a 40 40 dollars to win on number four played hard
01:07:06An extra and excuse me in a ten dollar exacta box number one malathot number four played hard and then a ten dollar saver punch
01:07:14Number one malathot and number three latruska overplayed hard total invested in the race is eighty dollars total invested for the day
01:07:21Is 195
01:07:23Add that with the 200 we invested on saturday. We're in for 395 this weekend
01:07:28So let's get it best of luck. Enjoy the phenomenal action at keeneland with six
01:07:33Breeders cup tickets being punched from five to six eastern on cnbc both saturday and sunday
01:07:39All right, so that's going to do it for this week's edition of better things with joe. Bianca
01:07:43Thank you so much to chuck simon for coming on talking to me for a while
01:07:46If you haven't listened to the going going in circles podcast don't usually plug other podcasts
01:07:51But that's definitely worth listening to with chuck and barry. You do a great job. So thanks to chuck for stopping by
01:07:56Thanks to the breeders cup for their sponsorship
01:07:58Thanks to our producer patty wolf and our editors anthony larocca alia larocca and nathan wilkinson. We'll see you next time
01:08:05We'll be back breeders cup week for a big breeders cup preview show here on better things with joe. Bianca. See you then
01:08:16You