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00:00I need to be better at my anger management, you know, sometimes fair in your head because you're
00:05just unhappy about something and then you're going and showing it somewhere else. But in reality,
00:10other people don't know what you are going through.
00:12Hi guys, it's Lenora and welcome back to the Pursuit of Progress. I'm a person that's gone
00:30through different transitions in my life as I'm sure you have too. And this podcast is all about
00:36learning from others who have also gone through different parts of experiences in their life.
00:42And I'm always fascinated with how they are able to overcome different obstacles and challenges.
00:48So I hope as you are joining me, you're ready to pop because this is the Pursuit of Progress.
00:54Now, today's guest is very, very special because he's a person that I get to sit down with almost
01:01every day. He's someone that knows me and probably I would say I know him pretty well too.
01:08Sure or not?
01:09Yeah, I'm pretty sure. So okay, before I get into saying who the person is, this person is
01:17a retired professional rugby athlete who holds the record as the longest playing Malaysian athlete
01:23for nine years in Japan's Rugby One League. Then he is also the only Malaysian athlete to play rugby
01:30in the US MLR. And he has conquered all kinds of obstacles in his life to bring where he is today.
01:37So please welcome to the show, my husband, Duke Christian. People know him also by so many different names.
01:45Thank you for having me today.
01:47Yeah. So how would you actually like to, would you like to say wifey or would you just like to be normal?
01:53Keep it professional here.
01:54Okay. So the man has said so already. Okay. Let's first start with at the very beginning.
02:00You've gone through so many things already. So if you could describe your childhood in one word, what would it be and why?
02:10I always wonder why am I different than everybody else? And all my friends are very shorter than me. Most of the time, most shorter than me.
02:21And I will be like five years old and five feet. So I'm always wondering like, why am I always different than everybody else?
02:32Hmm. And that puts me aside. Like I was always in my own bubble because I don't have a team to join.
02:44Nobody fitting my description, like nobody fitting in my world. And I always try to fit in with them.
02:53So I would say like kind of miserable, but at the same time, yeah, with the love and passion showed by my family,
03:00I always feel like there's nothing wrong with me. It's just, I'm the one who doesn't find what is, what makes me different at that time.
03:10Yeah. If you don't mind me, if I were to actually say that, if you could put one word, I would say it's unique.
03:15Now I'm thinking about it. Then I feel like, yeah, I always been this special kid who had a lot of energy, had a lot of athletic in him, but don't know where to direct that energy to.
03:29Coming from a family who have no sports background, my family has been always supporting me in sports or in studies and everything.
03:38Like I tried hockey and they're like, okay, they buy me hockey. And I say, I want to do the football and they put me in a football academy.
03:46So they always been supporting me because they see that I am very athletic. I have a lot of energy.
03:52So that's helped me to find that I have this athletic in me.
03:59But the one thing that I don't have, it's principle and value at that time at a very young age.
04:06So I grew up being very athletic, but at the same time, I'm trying to fit in with the community that I'm around.
04:13Yeah.
04:14So my energy was spread around and, and yeah, I don't have one direction where I'm going to go.
04:21Right.
04:22Until I found this principle and values.
04:25Through rugby, would you say that was it?
04:27I would say through sports, because any sports will teach you these values and principles, you know, rugby did for me.
04:36You know, rugby welcomed me with open arms.
04:40Rugby, what I'm saying is like the community, the support, and you know, rugby don't demand much yet.
04:47You have to be in a certain height, weight all.
04:50So whatever shape you are, they just welcome you like, okay, come in and play.
04:55And that's fit me, fit in for me, because I always been the kid who miserable, like I told you earlier.
05:02So I'm using it a lot, but so for me, I, when I want to go and join somewhere, I always see what I don't have.
05:11And rugby doesn't give any option to me because rugby don't have any discussion.
05:16Like you have to be, be slim, fast fit.
05:20They're just like, you want to play rugby?
05:22Come join us.
05:23So I just fit in, fit right in.
05:26Okay.
05:27If you could pinpoint one memory from your childhood, what childhood memory story that you think shape who you are today?
05:37Most of the time, the promises that I met to my parents.
05:41Oh.
05:42Yeah.
05:43Like how?
05:44Like my father always liked to put me in the front of the seat in the motorbike and take me anywhere, anywhere he go.
05:51And there is one time we are waiting in the traffic light and just this one car just stopped next to us.
05:59And my father just sitting on the motorbike.
06:01And then it's like, Hey, when you grow up, would you get me a car like this?
06:06And me being young child.
06:08And I'm like, yeah, sure.
06:10I will get you one.
06:11And then my mother, most of the time is like, she will be like, Hey, when you grow up, would you take care of us?
06:17So it comes to Indian family.
06:19There's always the boy have the responsibility to take care of the family.
06:23So she will be always ask me like, Hey, once you grow up, you have family and all.
06:29Would you still take care of us?
06:31I'm like, for sure.
06:32I will take care of you guys.
06:33But that's put a lot of responsibility in my shoulder at that age too.
06:38I'm like, I have to grow up.
06:40I have to become something so I can take care of my family.
06:44So you say that story shape responsibility, the value responsibility in you.
06:49Okay.
06:50And when you were, when you were younger, right?
06:52What was the first big dream you had for yourself?
06:56I mean, it didn't have to be rugby.
06:57It could have been anything.
06:59And did you believe that you could achieve it at that time?
07:02I always admire to be an athlete, superstar athlete.
07:09So you just wanted to be a superstar.
07:11Yeah.
07:12I always watch this David Beckham during that time.
07:15He's coming up Rooney, superstar athlete lifestyle.
07:19I'm like, man, that's cool.
07:21Like I see them in the Pepsi ads.
07:23I admire the lifestyle, but I don't, I didn't see how can I get there.
07:31Or maybe I don't see the possibilities of how can I get there or anything.
07:36And as I grew older with the life coming to understanding and then I'm like, okay, like I told you, like the responsibility in my, in my shoulder.
07:48So I'm like, okay, I'm going to find a job so I can support the family.
07:52I'm going to keep my life straight.
07:55And rugby was, I played rugby at 19 years old during my high school.
07:59That's where I get to know what is rugby, but I was not really involved in rugby at all.
08:05And after that life happens and 19 years old, I come across again with rugby.
08:12And that's where I really committed into playing rugby.
08:16And it was not even like supporting for whatever I want, but it gives me a platform where I can stay and work.
08:25So play rugby and work.
08:27That was my first idea.
08:28Along the way, while I committed to play rugby, I started, rugby have this core values.
08:35Mm hmm.
08:36So with the core values and with the circle, good circle around me, I started to see life more than just finding paycheck, the living paycheck to paycheck.
08:47Or so my mindset has changed.
08:50Once I grow 30, I wanted to be, I want to have a life like this.
08:55Mm hmm.
08:56I started to more like a manifest of my life.
08:59And by believing, by seeing people around me, being, being involved with them.
09:05And honestly, I'll tell you that life, my, my life has changes slowly, take one step at a time.
09:12And growth, like I always looking for what can I learn from whatever I do.
09:18And that's helps me to getting better every day.
09:23So when you said that you dreamt of being a superstar athlete.
09:26Yeah.
09:27And at what point through all that, right, because you did so many different sports as well.
09:31Yeah.
09:32But rugby was the main one.
09:33Then when did you actually believe that, yes, you could be a superstar athlete?
09:37Even now, I don't believe that I am a superstar athlete.
09:42Are you sure?
09:43I don't think that's true in the house.
09:45Because, you know, you are superstar to someone else's eyes, not to yourself, because you know what gets you here.
09:56So for me, to my eyes, I'm still the boy who are trying to do better every day.
10:03Whatever I'm doing, whatever I have done is past.
10:06But what am I doing with what I have done for the future?
10:11That's where makes me so.
10:13So I still want to be the superstar that I dream of at the young age.
10:16Okay.
10:17So that is with when you finally became, for some would say that you're already a superstar.
10:22So now let's go with your athlete and professional career time.
10:26What's something about being a pro athlete that no one talks about?
10:30I think being a professional athlete is a very lonely route.
10:37It will be very selfish most of the time because you will be focusing on yourself a lot.
10:45Most of the athletes, when they're explaining, you can see that at some point they come into a place where it's everything about me, me, me.
10:56What am I doing?
10:57What have I do?
10:58What have I done?
10:59And everything.
11:00And that's not something bad.
11:02Being selfish is not bad because you have all the good intention and you cannot, you know, like you cannot pour from an empty can.
11:10So you have to fill yourself up, then you will be capable of doing the things, the good things that you wanted to do.
11:18Like for people who are not involved in sports, they still want to do a lot of stuff, but they're always thinking about what can I give then how to make myself capable of giving.
11:29Hmm.
11:30So come to athletes, professional, I will say like, it's always about what I can do.
11:36So I will be capable to do something.
11:38So most of the athletes, they didn't, they won't share this because it sounds selfish, lonely and everything.
11:45But I think that's where you found, you started to question yourself, like, okay, what can I do that will makes me better than what I am today?
11:55So when you say lonely, does that mean you don't even get to talk about it with your teammates or it's just not possible to do that?
12:03You can talk about it with your teammates, but the points I, for me, I believe like the point will not make sense to you because it's just you and yourself.
12:12Maybe your, your teammates have different ideas of whatever me going through.
12:18Hmm.
12:19And most of the time when the athletes go into this, uh, solitude mode, most of the time they will avoid to talk to anybody and just surround themselves by just nobody and just themselves.
12:37Hmm.
12:38And most of the time we can find solution when we get to that level.
12:42So since we're talking about thoughts, right, was there ever a moment where you thought I'm not good enough to be here?
12:50Like say you have already gone into Yamaha time, right?
12:53Um, okay.
12:54For those who don't know, he played in Japan for, uh, six years with Yamaha Jubilo.
13:00Yes.
13:01And then after that, he went on to Hino Red Dolphins.
13:03That's for now three years.
13:04Yeah.
13:05So during a time when you first entered into Japan from being in Malaysia, was there a point that you thought I'm not good enough to be here?
13:13And how did you handle that?
13:15Not only at the first, even after my sixth year, I still like, what did I did right to deserve all this?
13:25Hmm.
13:26And the support that you're getting from home, from in Japan.
13:31And people are like, bro, you are in Japan that you are well known in Japan.
13:35Like people in Japan was talking to us from a boy go from Sungai Puthani to end up in Japan and being well known in Japan.
13:44Like a, a dream life.
13:47And sometimes I can come into a reality and ask myself like, what did I did to deserve all this, this, this dream life?
13:55Yeah.
13:56It's, it's sometimes it's like, it's just unbelievable.
13:58It's like, it's not about what you have done.
14:00It's about what is, what are you doing now?
14:04Okay.
14:05So I'm like, okay, so I need to keep working on my, on my, my routines.
14:11Like most of the time, my routines is the one who shaped me to who am I become in the future.
14:16It's not what I have done before.
14:18So most of the time we end up on thinking like, I don't deserve this because I am this, I like five years ago, I did this and you just stuck in the past.
14:28It's more so like, more importantly, it's about what are you doing today is what going to shape you in the, in the future.
14:36Hmm.
14:37You have this thing that, uh, we, we've talked about it.
14:40So, which is the, the wind mentality.
14:42Yes.
14:43Um, this is, uh, during my playing time, this one of person, his name is Chris.
14:50And then he was talking to us and he was talking about how athletes handle their mental and how, what's helped them to perform most of the time.
15:01And when they have a setback, how they go through the setback.
15:04And then he come, come up with this, uh, what's called win.
15:09Win.
15:10And then he asked like, do you guys understand what is this win means?
15:13And everybody like, of course we are athletes.
15:16We know what is win.
15:17Just get the W.
15:18We want to, yeah.
15:19Get the W.
15:20We want to win.
15:21We want to win everything.
15:22And then it's like, yes, that's normally win, but this win stands for W I N.
15:28It stands for what's important now.
15:30So every time when you go through any setbacks or for you rugby players, you guys can give away a penalty.
15:38So yellow cards or red cards.
15:41And if you have this win mentality with you, you always will think about what's important now, where it will just take everything off.
15:52Like, Oh, I shouldn't have done that.
15:53I shouldn't have done this.
15:54I shouldn't have played like this.
15:56I should have prepared more.
15:58Well, other than thinking all that, you will think about what I should do now.
16:03That will put me in a better place in the future.
16:06And you can use this also in any part of your life as well.
16:09Right?
16:10So I took that deep in, like I just planted in my head, like not only in the rugby, even in my everyday lifestyle.
16:18If anything goes bad or anything I did that get me the setback, I will always think about what's important now, what I should do now that will clear my head or that will help me to put me in a better foot.
16:33And that helps you get focus and clarity, right?
16:35I get most of the time I manage to come back.
16:38Sometimes I don't even realize it.
16:40This is a real thing happened yesterday.
16:43Okay.
16:44Elaborate.
16:45So yesterday I was running a program at one of our famous company and they come up with a slogan called Dare to Win.
16:57And Dare to Win, it's so many content that I can come up with, but I don't have any clarity.
17:05And the night before this program come, we have changed some structure.
17:11My presentation has changed and I got all chaos in my head.
17:16And the night I was sleeping, I was thinking, what am I going to talk about when it comes to Dare to Win?
17:22Because I need to come up with some content where I can elaborate to the participants.
17:28And that morning I wake up early.
17:31I was not in a good mood because my head is like, keep going back to that.
17:36Okay.
17:37What are you going to say on that slide?
17:38Okay.
17:39I remember that not good mood thing.
17:41And I just wake up and then I come outside.
17:44I thought like, okay, I can go and search for it or read a book and I can find it.
17:49So during this time I was trying to find because it's just clutter in my head.
17:54I don't have anything structure and I was just stop thinking about what I need to search.
18:00And then I have some things that I haven't done.
18:02Like I put my shoes to be washed and my laundries I haven't done yet.
18:08And I drop everything that thinking about how can I find the content.
18:12I just start doing like, I just go and clean my shoes.
18:16While I'm doing that, clearing up all the mess, cleaning my shoes, doing my laundries.
18:21Just by doing what's important at that time or just by clearing the mess in the house.
18:27It helps me structure my thoughts.
18:30So that those, the cleaning process help you get the small wins.
18:34So yes, I can say it that way because you know, that's something that I supposed to be done.
18:39But it haven't done yet because I was busy with creating like my slides, my presentation and everything.
18:45But the small things that I'm missing, it's compounding and then it gives me the chaos in my head.
18:53There's so many things that I have to be done.
18:55Okay.
18:56While I'm cleaning my shoe, cleaning the house, doing the laundries.
19:00It's all small things, which is, doesn't make sense why I need to do that.
19:04Yeah.
19:05To do my presentation.
19:06But those are counts as a small wins of the day.
19:09It's just clear up your, your, your thoughts.
19:13And it's helps you to structure.
19:15What do you want?
19:16Okay.
19:17I'm going to make a mental note that I'm going to make you do more cleaning in the house.
19:20Cause it seems to clear your thoughts, which is good.
19:23Still coming back to your pro athlete life.
19:26You already mentioned on how you handle when you're, you thought that you didn't deserve
19:31or you weren't good enough.
19:32So it, I will relate it back where it's coming back to, um, what's important now.
19:38Yes.
19:39And now, okay.
19:40I want to ask about the hard parts when you were in, when you were a pro athlete,
19:46what's a loss of failure that still stings when you think about it?
19:50Could it have been a red card or it could have been something that happened when you were playing?
19:57What was the hardest thing during your professional life?
20:00And how did you come out of it?
20:02That's one thing that, um, I still not happy with is that, of course, the red card that I get it.
20:10And I know I did it because if I get a red card for something that accident, I will accept it.
20:18And now I'm like, okay, it's a accident happened.
20:21But this thing is, I did it.
20:23I really not happy with what's going around outside of the field.
20:27And I take it in the field and I was just going hard in it.
20:31And then somebody trying to tackle me and I'm trying to hurt that person.
20:35And it's clearly can see that my intention is to hurt that person.
20:39And it's got me the red card.
20:41And that was my last year of the, of with that club.
20:46And still, when I think about it, I'm still like, uh, not very happy about my action.
20:53But that's gives me a point where I need to control my anger management.
21:03Like I need to be better at my anger management.
21:05You know, sometimes it sounds like fair in your head because you are just unhappy about something.
21:12And then you're going and showing it somewhere else.
21:15But in reality, other people don't know what you are going through.
21:19And not everybody, the world is not around you.
21:23So you need to be more aware of your actions, aware of your temper and learn how to control your temper most of the time.
21:33So would you say it's more of understanding self-awareness?
21:36Self-awareness.
21:37So from that incident, it's more about self-awareness.
21:40Like now I'm looking at it.
21:42I'm like, nah, man, that's not the man that, that I want to be.
21:47And that's not the man that I want my children to grow up to see.
21:53And with that, what's the hardest truth?
21:55I'm sure with all the things you've gone through in sports in all your years,
21:59what is the hardest truth you had to accept about yourself during your career?
22:04Like, for example, just now was the anger thing.
22:06Yeah, I'm like a very high temper person.
22:10But sometimes I see the high temper has helped me in a certain places.
22:16Like sometimes when I get upset, I just keep it to myself and show it in, like show it in, go to the gym or like go and do some workout by myself.
22:29So I think having that high temper, it's like a natural nature of human being, but aligning the temper, the energy to understand where to align that energy.
22:42It's it's very important.
22:43So I'm not happy with, with something going, going around and outside of the field, I could have aligned that energy somewhere else, you know, do extra workout, prepare myself to do well.
22:55And see that direction where am I aligning that energy?
22:59That's where goes my, the result.
23:02Would you say, what's the one tool that you've taken away from that self-reflection when you have that angry emotion?
23:11How do you translate it into something that's positive?
23:14Even in my program, I talk to people a lot, like everybody have a lot of energy.
23:19It can be fear, it can be anger, it can be sad.
23:24Only by learning how to aligning the energy in the right place, any setback can become your fuel.
23:34Okay.
23:35So it passed your athlete life.
23:38Now let's go into something more realistic, which is now transitioning out of pro into where you are now.
23:46We've discussed this a few times, but like, did, was there a point when you came out, did you already know that you were going to retire?
23:53Yes.
23:54Um, two, three years before I actually retired, I already preparing to retire.
24:01Mm-hmm.
24:02And I always had these thoughts in my head, like, how am I giving back to rugby, especially in Malaysia?
24:08Because all the kids that are following me during my professional and they're asking me like, hey, bro, I want to be like you.
24:15I want to play like you.
24:16How can I do?
24:17What can I do?
24:18So I always had this idea that I want to start an academy.
24:21And come back, like I retired last year, 2023.
24:26I announced my retirement in 2024.
24:28And July, I managed to get my, open my own platform called RSC Rugby Academic in Royal Slango Club.
24:39Yeah.
24:40Okay.
24:41Did it scare you when you knew you were going to leave rugby?
24:44I kind of losing identity.
24:47It doesn't scare me, but I'm like, okay, what am I if I'm not a rugby player?
24:52Mm-hmm.
24:53That comes into my head.
24:55And whatever else, like I'm telling myself, like people started to calling me, bro, are you going for the coaching?
25:01Are you going for this, that?
25:02Did it annoy you when people kept asking?
25:04It annoys me most of the time.
25:05I'm like, I'm not a coach, man.
25:07I'm not this man.
25:08You understand?
25:09It takes time for you to accept that you are not that player, the main guy in the field anymore, because that's all you know.
25:21It takes some time.
25:22It took me like almost a year plus to understand that, okay, I'm not a rugby player anymore.
25:29Now I'm more into coaching, more into guiding, more into train people into performance.
25:37So I need to find more.
25:39So I'm starting from zero again.
25:41So starting from zero again is another fear, like fearful things, because you know that what are the things that mostly your mind is always trying to protect you.
25:51And then they're like, you're starting from zero again.
25:53They're like, what you starting your life from zero again, learning something new.
25:58But just because I always believe in growth, like learning, getting better every day, not only in sports, even in a real life, like business or anything, it gives me that stability of like, it's okay.
26:12I'm going to learn every day.
26:13I'm going to get better every day.
26:15And then one day I'm going to perfect it.
26:17I'm going to master this.
26:18So that took away the fear and confusion of the loss of identity just by going, okay, I can learn something new every day.
26:27I like that.
26:28Okay.
26:29And what's the one thing you lost when you stopped playing?
26:33And what's the one thing you've gained?
26:35I lost my solitude, solitude space most of the time.
26:42Okay.
26:43And I gained a lot of social skill.
26:46Oh.
26:47I started to talk to a lot of people.
26:50I started to bounce off ideas, brainstorming with people, meeting new people, building my network and open my vision into looking at what I need to do, what I need to do to who I need to meet, who can help me get me what I want.
27:09So if I had met you after you had retired, say, I didn't, I didn't know you back then.
27:13Right.
27:14And I meet you now after you're done with pro-life.
27:17What kind of person would I meet?
27:19You will meet a person who is ambitious, a lot of, like he wants to do a lot of things with sports and potentially a boss.
27:36A boss.
27:37Okay.
27:38A boss.
27:39Okay.
27:40How do you want to be remembered?
27:42Not as an athlete, but as a person.
27:45I don't know how do I want to be remembered by everybody, but I just don't want to be forgotten.
27:54Hmm.
27:55Okay.
27:56Yeah.
27:57I'm going to ask something even more personal.
27:58How would you want your kid to remember you?
28:01I just want them to be proud of me.
28:06That's it.
28:07Okay.
28:08Little one knows.
28:11Okay.
28:12This one we've spoken about before, which was, which one scares you more?
28:15Failure or success?
28:16For me, the success, uh, fear me, scares me more.
28:22Why?
28:23Why?
28:24Because, you know, anybody can be success one time.
28:29To keep up with it is what gives you a lot of responsibility and a lot of hard work.
28:36Because the expectation from outside and everything is totally different.
28:40The pressure and the responsibilities.
28:43So keeping it.
28:44So yeah.
28:45Keeping up with the success, it's fears me more than failure because I know every time
28:52when I fail, I'm going to be just better than last time.
28:55Hmm.
28:56Okay.
28:57Yeah.
28:58Anyway, I really hope, I really liked the few things that we touched on that I think
29:01were good tools.
29:02Number one was the W I N what's important now.
29:05And there was another one that you mentioned, which I found really helpful for anyone coming
29:09out, uh, realigning your energy.
29:12Yeah.
29:13Yeah.
29:14Yeah.
29:15That's a very useful tools.
29:17I would say.
29:18One last one, right?
29:19For any athlete who's going to a transition, just like you from pro to workforce or everyday
29:24life, what would your one quick advice be?
29:28Um, don't rush the process because these athletes, they always have, have this tendency
29:33of want to see the result quick.
29:35So don't rush the process.
29:37Take one step at a time.
29:39We have all type of source to find knowledge now in this time of age.
29:46Don't be worried.
29:47Like what else, if not this spots, what else I have?
29:51Because we have abundance out here.
29:54So just trust the process and take one step at a time.
29:58Nice.
29:59And with that, we're going to say trust the process.
30:01There's definitely going to be more here on the pursuit of progress.
30:04I want to say a big thank you to, to Duke, my husband for coming on to share a little
30:09more insight.
30:10You saw some, you heard some parts of the house and I'm very happy.
30:14We didn't get into an argument, but yes, thank you so much for joining us on the pursuit
30:18of progress.
30:19It will be back again next time.
30:21See ya.
30:23Bye.
30:24Bye.