In this episode, she opens up about the challenges of balancing sports and education, the tough transition after retirement, and why being an athlete today means more than just winning medals.
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00:00That's the hard part about going into retirement because they're so used to getting like $4,500.
00:05You don't have any experience, but then you expect to have the same salary based on your sports achievements.
00:23Welcome to The Pursuit of Progress.
00:25I'm Lenora Lowe, and I've had my fair share of transitions in my life.
00:30Once upon a time, from brand planner to radio announcer, MC, content creator, and now the new thing in my life, motherhood.
00:37I'm sure everyone has gone to some form of transition too.
00:40Through it all, I've been fascinated of how people grow and adapt, and that's what inspired me to start this podcast.
00:48Now, The Pursuit of Progress is about embracing change, pushing limits, and learning from those who have walked different paths,
00:56which is why we've got different guests coming onto the show, and hopefully you're going to learn a thing or two from them, as am I.
01:04So I hope everyone is ready to P-O-P, POP, The Pursuit of Progress.
01:09Let's dive into it.
01:10Today, I'm joined by my first guest on the first episode.
01:15I'm really excited because once upon a time, I used to watch her, okay, when growing up bowling.
01:22I couldn't think of a better guest.
01:23She is a multiple-time SEA Games gold medalist, a former world champion, and the first Malaysian inducted into the International Bowling Hall of Fame.
01:33With over two decades of dominance on the lanes, please welcome a friend of mine that I met in Pilates, Dr. Charlene Zulkifli.
01:43I want to say, like, there's going to be, like, yeah, should we put, like, clapping sounds?
01:49Yeah, I would do that.
01:53Girl, thank you so much for coming on to the show.
01:55Thank you for the invitation.
01:56Yeah.
01:56Can we just dive straight into it, right?
01:59Can you give us a glimpse of what was it like growing up as little Charlene Zulkifli?
02:05What were you like?
02:06Well, I was, looking back now, I think, like, over 40 years, I'm kind of amazed at how very goal-oriented and serious I was at such a young age.
02:19Because I was, I started bowling when I was nine.
02:22I was always into sports, as everybody knows, like, from my articles and things like that.
02:27So I started bowling at nine, and then I started going seriously into bowling at ten.
02:32And then when I was 13, I started representing the country.
02:36But during that whole four-year process, before I got selected to represent the country in the junior team and also the adults team, I was bowling every day.
02:46I was like, normally at that time, we don't have the kind of training that the athletes go through now, which is like, now they go through five days a week.
02:56And you have gym three sessions a week and so on.
03:00At that moment in time, it was just part-time.
03:04So we only had, like, three sessions a week.
03:07And then gym is not compulsory, it's up to you and things like that.
03:11So from being somewhat like a semi, you could say semi-professional, to actually doing that so early on in my career.
03:21That's why now when I look back, it's like, oh, it's like, wow, how did, how was I, like, normally when you're ten and things like, oh, you just want to play.
03:28And like, yeah, you're not so focused on, like, on things like that.
03:30I've got to ask on that question.
03:31I'm coming to that as a question.
03:32So, like, when I was nine, looking back, I'm like, okay, how was I so focused in just being so single-minded, in just trying to achieve my dream and, like, bowling, like, five, six days a week.
03:47And, like, certain days, I'll bowl, like, two sessions after my training and so on.
03:52And so, life has always been busy for me ever since I was, like, nine until now.
03:59So whenever I have, like, idle time, I feel kind of weird.
04:03You're a workaholic, I'm sure.
04:04Yeah, yes, I am.
04:06Workaholic and perfectionist.
04:07So, because you're just so used to that fast-paced life.
04:11So when I was nine, I was, like, bowling and I was doing other sports as well at school.
04:17And then I would, like, you know, at that time, my parents were working, so they didn't have time to, like, send me everywhere.
04:24So I just take, like, the normal bus since I was, like, ten.
04:28When I was, like, 12, then my dad sat me down and we had a talk.
04:32I'm like, okay, you know, for athletics, I don't think it's going to be easy for you because you're vertically challenged.
04:38They actually said that you're vertically.
04:40No, my dad, my dad, me and me, yeah.
04:41Okay.
04:41I mean, it's a known fact because both of my parents are also vertically challenged.
04:45Okay.
04:45And then we said, okay, so maybe a skill sport.
04:48So there was only a few skill sports at that time.
04:51And he was actually bowling with my mom.
04:54They started bowling at that time.
04:55So we said, oh, why not try bowling?
04:58So I tried it and liked it and kind of, like, really fell in love with the sport and just continued from then onwards and, like, never looked back.
05:09Yeah.
05:09So coming to that question of, you said that at 10 years old, you were already so focused.
05:14Yeah.
05:14Do you have a recollection of what made you so goal-oriented?
05:18Like, was it something your parents encouraged or you saw something?
05:23I think a bit of, a little bit of everything.
05:25Because my parents were always like, okay, you know, you have to set a goal, whatever you want to do, make sure you find your passion and things like that.
05:32But I think naturally, I was just a very competitive person.
05:36So the first ball I threw was in the gutter.
05:40Okay.
05:40So it really irritated me.
05:42I was like, ah, how come, why?
05:44Because I played all different sports, you know.
05:46And everything was fine, except this one.
05:48It's okay.
05:48I wasn't, like, the best athlete, but I could play all different sports.
05:52But I was more good at sports where I was in control of the movement instead of reaction sports.
06:00Okay.
06:00I'm a bit slow in that.
06:01So I was like, why did it go into the gutter and things like that?
06:06So I was like, then I kept bowling, bowling, bowling until, you know, the ball didn't stop going into the gutter and things like that.
06:13So I was just like, at that time, probably we didn't have social media or anything like that, but we have now, so a lot of distractions.
06:21So I was just like, oh, and I joined sports.
06:23So that kind of helped.
06:24And I just started competing early with my peers and also some of my seniors.
06:32And I just enjoyed the competition and just enjoyed having, like, school, like, activities in school, sports, different sports in school.
06:40And actually going back and, like, training after school, I would go straight to the bowling alley.
06:46I would even go home, go straight to the bowling alley and then train and then wait for my parents there.
06:51And then just finish my homework there.
06:53And then we would have dinner there and then they would bowl.
06:56I would just watch and then we would go back home after that.
06:59Our bowling was pretty much your entire life.
07:01Yes.
07:01It was always about creating history.
07:04For you.
07:04That was the intention that you had every time.
07:06Yeah, me and my dad.
07:07So he said, you must make, if you're going to be involved in something, you must be the best.
07:14And, you know, and set up a pathway for other girls or other bowlers that are young as well, that want to be in the team.
07:23Because at that time, that mentality was like, okay, you have to be, like, you know, a certain age to be in the national team.
07:29So I was like, I kind of broke all the barriers.
07:32Like, oh, you're 14 and you're in the team.
07:34When I was 15, it was my first SEA Games in Singapore.
07:38And I won, I think, two or three goals.
07:41Yeah.
07:41And two or three silvers.
07:44So that kind of, like, set me up.
07:47And, like, even before when I was, like, younger, nobody would shout.
07:51Nobody was aggressive when they bowl.
07:53No, when they celebrate?
07:55At that time, the bowlers were not expressive.
07:59Oh.
08:00But you were?
08:00Yeah, I was the one.
08:02So a lot of my seniors were like, who is this girl?
08:05Like, you know, why is she, like, shouting?
08:06But now if you go to all the junior tournaments, it's a norm.
08:11So the kids would, like, shout and, like, you know, be expressive.
08:15That's how it progressed.
08:17And that's how I kind of, like, broke some barriers while I was still 14 until when I was in the team, like, for 30 years.
08:27Wow.
08:28Okay.
08:29When you mentioned quite a fair bit that you hate losing.
08:32Yes.
08:32I hate losing.
08:33I would look at every single thing that, mistakes that I make, whether I, like, miss a spare or, you know, how many shots did I hit the target or in the pocket and things like that.
08:44And I will analyze it and, like, okay, in the next training session, I must make sure I don't do that again and things like that.
08:51And, like, during the training session as well, like, whenever I got a list of skills that the coach would give me on Monday, I would bowl and train on, after training on Monday itself and then on Tuesday so that I want to make sure that I'm able to at least get, like, 60 or 70% by the next training session.
09:11Which is Wednesday.
09:12Yeah, which is Wednesday.
09:13Wednesday.
09:14My gosh, you're really a perfectionist.
09:16Looking back, I'm like, how was I able to, like, actually, like, think that at that age where most of the kids now, even because I coach as well, so I mentor kids.
09:28So most of the kids now don't have that same drive.
09:32So I don't know whether it's just me being me or just me hating to lose.
09:39Yeah, that's why I'm still trying to get to that part of.
09:41Why is it you hate losing so much?
09:43I just want to be, like, because my dad was like, yeah, you know, if you're second, yeah, it's okay, but you're still the first loser kind of thing.
09:50That's why I said my dad just knows what button to push.
09:52Because he, like, he knows I'll get irritated by it.
09:56So I'm like, I'm going to just zone in and, like, train harder and make sure I improve myself so that the next time I don't lose that way.
10:03Well, I mean, like, after working with you very briefly for the first time, actually, last year, I can see that.
10:08I mean, like, you were so meticulous on our rehearsals and whatnot, just sharing that we actually had a time where I got to MC for you last year.
10:16So you said that the focus part, your mental game is stronger than most of your peers.
10:20So, like, for anyone who is trying to get their focus back or to improve their focus, what do you think would be a good way to start?
10:28The difference between somebody who's, like, whether you're top 10 percentile of athletes, like the iconic athletes, Malaysian athletes,
10:36like Atok Azizo, Atok Nikol, me, and so on, is I think we focus a lot on the details compared to other athletes who are good as well.
10:48But then they just are not able to break into that top 10 percentile of athletes in Malaysia or in the world.
10:56It's because, like, for me, for example, I'll break my goals down to, like, my new goals that I can achieve.
11:04Oh, wow.
11:05So you're like reverse goals.
11:06Yes, reverse goal setting.
11:08So, yes, I want to represent the country when I get to 14 years old from Malaysia.
11:14So what do I need to do?
11:15I have to become a national champion.
11:17So how do I do that?
11:19I have to, like, win in the junior circuit and things like that get spotted or SUGMA.
11:23Then I'll get picked into the national team.
11:25So that's how I work.
11:27It became easier for me to reach the bigger goal because subconsciously when you have smaller goals and you reach them, you'll be good.
11:36Whether you like it or you realize it or not.
11:40So it kind of just, like, just came with the flow of, like, everything.
11:45Right.
11:46Yeah.
11:46Okay, I got to ask, like, transitioning, right, from athlete and then now is a wife and then motherhood.
11:54What was that transition like?
11:57Uh, for me, it was fun.
11:59It was fun.
11:59So, um, it was hard at first when I got married.
12:03Oh, you know, after you get married, you're going to stop being an athlete.
12:06They said that.
12:07Yeah, yeah.
12:07It's a normal, our Asian culture probably, you know.
12:10So then when I got, when I was a mom, it was like, okay, normal, uh, normally the culture is like, okay, once you are a mom, you have kids, you stop being an athlete because, you know, you work and all those things.
12:25So for me, I was like, no, why should I, I still am good.
12:29I still can contribute for the country.
12:31And, um, I don't see that as a stumbling, yeah, a hindrance or a stumbling block for me.
12:38But I just need to make sure that everybody is on the same page as me.
12:43So I was quite lucky to have a very good support system because he knows, he's an athlete as well.
12:48So he knows, okay, you know, uh, we would support each other.
12:52Yeah.
12:52But the transition, it's, it's, once you're a parent, it's like organized chaos, but you just have to go with the flow.
13:01I'm trying to understand that organized chaos and yet it's a flow.
13:04Yeah, because you can't be like, okay, no, get riled up over small things.
13:10It's like, okay, this one doesn't work.
13:11Okay, fine.
13:12Let's do something else.
13:14So just like, um, just adapt, just adapt.
13:18From transitioning, athlete, wife, motherhood, and then now you're retired, right?
13:24Yeah.
13:24From, from the national team.
13:26From the national team, but I still bowling.
13:27But you're still bowling.
13:27Yeah, I still bowling.
13:28Okay, so technically you're not fully retired lah.
13:30Yeah, kind of.
13:31Okay, but either way, your life has now gone into a different chapter.
13:36Which brings me to, you are now working for MSN, basically.
13:40Yes, yes.
13:40Which is, okay, for anyone who's watching, like, we are both wearing the jackets that she gave me.
13:45We twinning, okay?
13:46Yeah, twinning.
13:47So maybe you want to tell, like, what do you do in MSN and what's the department?
13:50So I'm actually the head of the Malaysian Athletes Career and Education, MACE, in MSN, National Sports Council of Malaysia,
13:58where we are actually taking care of the athletes' welfare.
14:03So it started in, it started in 2006, but at that time it was just a unit, athletes' welfare unit in NSC.
14:12So in 2019, it became a full-fledged secretariat on its own.
14:16So we have about, like, 10 or 11 staff in MACE.
14:20So we help athletes in terms of education, if they want to continue their studies or even their studies.
14:28For example, they're from out of town, out of state.
14:31So they had to come to KL and be trained in Bukit Jalil together with all the other national teams.
14:36So we process their school transfers.
14:40We help them to get into universities, whether it's a local university or private university.
14:48Or right now we kind of branch out to international as well.
14:52And then we also help them with scholarship applications.
14:58If they want to defer their classes in university, we handle that process with the university and their lecturers.
15:07That's in terms of education.
15:09In terms of career, we help them in their transition, like what I went through.
15:14Yeah, I want to talk about that actually.
15:16Transition, so teach them, you know, how they should prepare for life after retirement if they want to go into the workforce.
15:23These are for any athletes or specifically national athletes?
15:25These are for national athletes in the National Sports Council program, our high-performance athletes.
15:32And then we help them, we do courses like public speaking for them or like Microsoft skill, Microsoft Office, PowerPoint, how to present.
15:45Things that you will actually get usually like you will learn maybe in school or something like that.
15:49Yes, because not all athletes go into university.
15:52What's it like for an athlete in Malaysia?
15:56Do they still study like how you did or?
15:58Yes, now I'm very happy that a lot of our athletes are doing dual career, like they're student-athletes.
16:05Before, it wasn't that way.
16:07Before, it's mostly like, okay, either you're a student or you're an athlete.
16:11You can't be both.
16:12But now, as the time progress and changes happen, there are more to, okay, I need to be.
16:19Because now, even if you're an athlete, you have to be an educated athlete.
16:22You have to be a thinking athlete.
16:23So you can't just be just all brown and no brains.
16:27Is that what it was like before?
16:29Yes.
16:29And what a lot of people think an athlete is?
16:32It's like still, you know, you just do it for fun.
16:35You know, sports can't get you a steady income and things like that.
16:39But now, you see, everything's changed.
16:41We have more professionals.
16:42And, you know, sports open up a lot of different careers for athletes as well.
16:47You can be an emcee, commentator, sportscaster, and things like that.
16:51So we help them in their transition.
16:54When you're an athlete, even though it is different, but do they automatically think that the salary is going to remain the same?
17:03Yes.
17:03Which is not.
17:05Because you have to realize that when your salary, when you're an athlete, is based on your achievements as an athlete.
17:13But when you go into coaching, you are judged on your coaching achievements, which they do not have any yet.
17:21But since last year, we've made some improvements because some of our coaches are national athletes.
17:27So they are able to carry a certain part of their success.
17:32So they have like an extra allowance.
17:33If you're world champion, you get like a thousand or two thousand extra if you become a national coach,
17:38which is the improvement that we've made from the national coaching program.
17:44So we help them, prepare them for if they want to become a coach.
17:50So at least they already, once they retire, they already are able to get like a decent salary,
17:57like maybe like three thousand as a start compared to thousand eight or two thousand.
18:02I was going to ask, it may be a censored thing, but please be real with me.
18:06Like usually how much can an athlete make in Malaysia?
18:11A ballpark figure?
18:12I mean, if you're an Olympian, you get seven thousand five hundred and above.
18:15A month?
18:16Yes.
18:17Oh, wow.
18:17Which is quite a lot.
18:18But we are paid really well compared to some other countries because everything else is paid for.
18:24Food, accommodation, if you stay in the National Sports Council, competition, allowances, competition, everything is paid for.
18:33Plus you get a salary.
18:35What if you're not in Olympia?
18:36Okay, Asian Games medallies or Commonwealth, you get four thousand five hundred.
18:40If you're Sea Games medallies, you get two thousand five hundred.
18:42So if you're a student, you get like five hundred to eight hundred, but now it's gone up as well.
18:47So minimum you get like thousand eight hundred.
18:51That's the hard part about going into retirement because they're so used to getting like four thousand five hundred,
18:58which is at the managerial level if you go outside.
19:01But when you go out into the working environment, you don't have any experience, but then you expect to have the same salary based on your sports achievements.
19:14A lot of companies want to hire athletes because we have a lot of the good qualities that sports give us like punctual, motivated and things like that.
19:22But because you don't have any work experience, so you go in there, you don't know, you're not good at a lot of different things.
19:29Probably you're not good at presentation, you're not good at this, you don't have experience in presenting to the board and things like that.
19:35So those are the things that you need to learn.
19:37So we try and get them to learn that while they're still an athlete.
19:42Ah, okay.
19:42So that when you decide to retire, the transition, you will still go through that transition and, you know, learning process.
19:51But we try and shorten it because I think the IOC did a survey before.
19:57They said athletes, once they retire, the first two years after retirement, they go through depression because we lose a sense of self.
20:04We lose our identity.
20:06Like, you know, like you're so used to training and the regimented schedule and things like that.
20:10But then once you retire, I'm like, oh, what am I going to do?
20:13I've never really thought about it because we're so used to being in the present that we don't really think about the future.
20:18If you're an athlete, you just, okay, just focus on what you're doing now, you know.
20:23You don't think about, like I said, don't think about the results, think about the process.
20:27But then you forget that, you know, once you retire, you have to have the same, you can bring the same recipe or the same things that you do when you're an athlete to your retirement.
20:39You have to prepare the same way.
20:41So I tell a lot of the other athletes, I share with them, okay, because sometimes it's too overwhelming for them to like think of, oh, I have to go to this course, I have to go to that course.
20:51But to me, it's okay.
20:52You can just do maybe one hour a day at first if you're not.
20:56Baby steps.
20:56Yeah, baby steps.
20:57So those are also steps in improving yourself.
21:00It doesn't necessarily mean that, okay, I have to have this certificate, that degree and things like that.
21:05But you have to be smart and you have to know.
21:07And even for me, after graduating from UM with my degree in sports science, I thought I would become a coach.
21:16But then one of the things I told myself, okay, what?
21:18Because at that moment in time, a lot of coaches did not get paid well.
21:21If you want to become a coach, I want to be overqualified for the job.
21:25So they have to pay me the same salary as a foreign coach.
21:28Can I ask why would they do that?
21:29Is it because, I mean, with all your achievements and everything, and you're a smart cookie.
21:33So why would they want to pay more to international when national is...
21:38Because, for example, like, not necessarily if you're a great athlete, you can become a good coach.
21:44It's totally different things.
21:46Because if you're an athlete, you just focus on yourself and your achievements and what you have to do.
21:51If you're a coach, you have to focus on the whole team and the whole individual.
21:56So sometimes it's too much to handle if you're not used to it.
22:00Because you have to think of the bigger picture, not only you.
22:02So I actually dabbled into coaching even before I retired.
22:07So I went and coached our SUGMA, consultant for our SUGMA team to have baby steps.
22:15And then because I know that by the time if I retire, I've already had coaching SUGMA and my resume and coaching all this other stuff.
22:23So when I start, they can't pay me low.
22:26They have to pay me plus I have my degree and things like that.
22:29So they have to pay me like slightly higher than what probably they would pay a fresh coach.
22:36But then after I graduated, I'm like, okay, I tried coaching early.
22:41And then I'm like, oh, yeah, I can become a coach.
22:42But it didn't really give me the fulfillment that I thought I would get.
22:46So I started going into also management, sports management, administrative, you know, sports association, state level and then national level.
22:58And I'm like, yeah, that's kind of nice.
22:59But, you know, because there's a lot as an athlete, you know, you get different perspectives.
23:05Like when you're just an athlete, you just think about yourself.
23:09You're kind of selfish.
23:10Yes, I've heard that many times.
23:11So when you are a coach, you have to think about a bigger number of people.
23:17And then when you become a sports administrator, it gets bigger and bigger.
23:21So when I became a sports administrator, I'm like, oh, okay, this is nice.
23:25But, you know, a lot of my teammates are coaches.
23:29So if you want to change the whole ecosystem, improve the whole sports ecosystem, we have to be able to contribute in different, different areas.
23:38So if every national athlete becomes coaches, you still won't have sports administrators and the other part or sports scientists or physio and things like that.
23:48In other words, you need to broaden the horizon.
23:50Yes, you have to broaden your horizon.
23:50So because I tried everything early, so I'm like, okay, I've done this, done that.
23:55So maybe I can do something else.
23:57So then I was always the outspoken one in my team and when I was an athlete.
24:04So I was like, okay, I was like, okay.
24:06Then I found out like towards the end, I'm like, okay, I'm into athletes welfare.
24:10I like, I like helping other athletes speak up and things like that.
24:15Now that it's beyond the scoreboard already.
24:18You could always see the strikes, that as your scoreboard.
24:22But now, how do you measure progress and success in your daily life?
24:27I have this thing where I was like, okay, yes, even when I coach, I'm like, yeah, you're successful.
24:33But then as a coach, for me, it's more important for me to shape an athlete to be a good athlete in terms of their attitude and everything else, instead of just being a champion athlete.
24:51You know, because I think winning championships and everything is great.
24:55But if you don't have the right attitude, you have the right mindset and everything else, you won't be successful in life.
25:02I love that.
25:03I actually have one more question, but we got to keep it really short.
25:06Okay.
25:06It's more of like a fun, quick one.
25:08Okay.
25:08If you can summarize it.
25:10What scares you more?
25:11Failure or success?
25:14That's kind of hard.
25:15A bit of both.
25:16Success sometimes gets to your head.
25:19So you always need to have your feet on the ground as well.
25:24Be confident, but be humble.
25:27Failure is because sometimes it's not that easy to come back from failure.
25:32Swallowing your pride and your ego when you need to.
25:35It's not that easy, but it's an ongoing process.
25:39You got to pick one.
25:40To pick one.
25:42Failure, probably knowing myself.
25:44Okay.
25:45Because of the loss, right?
25:46The whole personality.
25:48Yeah, yeah.
25:48Okay.
25:49Sharlyn, thank you so much for joining me on the very first podcast.
25:53It was very eye-opening in the life of an athlete that you transitioned through so many
25:58things.
25:58Yes.
25:59And I really hope whoever that is listening and watching, you also pick up some things
26:03right here and your mind just went, pop!
26:06Pursuit of progress.
26:07See you in the next episode.
26:08Bye.
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