Catch up on the latest political news from across Kent with Oliver Leader de Saxe, joined by Councillor David Thornwell, Deputy Leader of the Liberal Democrat Group at Tonbridge and Malling Borough Council and Dartford Borough Council's Conservative lead member for young people George Holt.
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00:30Welcome to the Kent Politics Show live on KMTV, the show that gets Kent's politicians
00:35talking.
00:36I'm Oliver, leader of the SACs, and the question of the day, who are working people?
00:41It's a question Labour are trying to answer ahead of their budget next week.
00:46The party promised not to raise taxes on those groups, with tax rises expected next week.
00:52Who will be impacted is anyone's guess.
00:54And some here in Kent will be wondering whether the money will be there for vital infrastructure
00:59as well.
01:00To make sense of it all, I enjoy councillor David Thornwell, the deputy leader of the
01:04group at Tunbridge Malling Borough Council, and David and George Holt, the Conservative
01:10councillor and lead member for youth at Dartford Borough Council.
01:16But before all that, gridlock.
01:19That was what people in Dartford experienced on Monday, as the Dartford tunnel was temporarily
01:24closed and a lorry fire brought the M225 to a standstill.
01:29It's not the only infrastructure concern facing Kent, with the entry-exit system and capacity
01:36and rural population growth causing concern for many local authorities.
01:41So with the budget on the way, are things about to change?
01:44Well thank you both for joining me here today.
01:47And George, I wanted to go to you on this one, as I know it's a big issue for people
01:51up in Dartford.
01:52Because what we saw on Monday was pretty horrendous, seven-hour waits, traffic at a standstill.
01:58How common is gridlock like this in Dartford?
02:02Well firstly, thank you for having me, and yeah, you're right, it was devastating.
02:07I spoke to so many parents who couldn't get their kids home from school, people who couldn't
02:12get to work, nurses who couldn't get to Downing Valley Hospital.
02:15It was frankly a mess, and even more frustratingly, it's not uncommon.
02:21Obviously what happened on Monday was severe, but traffic like that happens on a regular
02:26basis here in Dartford.
02:28Because obviously it's clear that traffic is being funnelled through a few choke points
02:32here in the county, such as the Dartford Tunnel, such as the M225, and with the Lower Thames
02:37Crossing now in the long grass until next year.
02:41Are you worried things won't improve at the moment?
02:45I'm incredibly worried things won't improve.
02:47I mean, look, the lack of approval for the Lower Thames Crossing is a political failure
02:51on all levels.
02:53I think people look to the government to sort this out, and it isn't a strictly party political
02:58issue either.
02:59When the delay came out a couple of weeks ago, I wish I could say I was surprised, but
03:06I wasn't, because it's the sort of thing that this new government have been doing.
03:10I'm just incredibly disappointed with what they've done here, and it's quite clear that
03:17Dartford needs an urgent solution to the traffic gridlock we're having, and the Lower
03:21Thames Crossing is a solution which was green, it had widely achieved buy-in from most of
03:26North Kent.
03:27I believe more than 85% of the consultation was a return positive.
03:31But to be clear though, Gravesham Borough Council do actually oppose it, and surely
03:36your party has to take some responsibility for infrastructure problems in this part of
03:40Kent.
03:41You have 14 years in power.
03:42Ministers could have cut red tape, could have made planning easier.
03:46Why wasn't the Lower Thames Crossing approved much earlier?
03:49Yeah, as I said when I started, it isn't strictly a party political issue.
03:55I mean, as I said, we did have 14 years, and we definitely should have done more.
04:00Unfortunately, the planning system in this country means that you have to dredge through
04:03years and years and years, and it allows obstructionist activists like, you know, that are in Farrick
04:09and Gravesham to be able to, you know, basically put the brakes on this.
04:12Basically, if you have the right legal team, you can sling things like this down incredibly.
04:18So you'll notice I'm not coming here to, you know, put all the blame on Labour as much
04:23as, you know, it was an act of political cowardice to delay it once again, and for them to use
04:28the excuse they want to hear more opinions.
04:31It's not strictly a Tory Labour issue.
04:33We need to get this done.
04:34I want to be working with my colleagues in the Green Party, Labour Party, and whoever
04:37wants to do it, to get this done.
04:40And obviously, David, you're not up by Dartford, you're Larkfield, you're in Tunbridge and
04:45Moorling Borough Council, but like a lot of parts of North Kent, there's a lot of pressure
04:51on infrastructure.
04:52And I know as a chair of a planning committee, you probably know that firsthand.
04:57Is infrastructure in your ward where you are based up to snuff?
05:02We have problems because they're putting in additional emergency lay-bys on the M20, and
05:08when they're doing that and the roads closed, they divert through the A20, through Larkfield,
05:14through my ward.
05:16And of course, we're also under pressure because of the government, the past one and this one
05:22looks like it's going to be worse, imposing housing sites upon us when we know the road
05:28system's inadequate to accept those housing sites.
05:32So we're having centralised decisions instead of the locals being able to say what should
05:37happen.
05:39I thought George was saying that there was too much red tape around the Lower Thames
05:41Crossing.
05:42Now you're saying that there needs to be more red tape.
05:45Which is it?
05:46I want there to be, as far as new housing sites, to be primarily local decision-making,
05:52not top-down from Whitehall.
05:55But isn't that just nimbyism?
05:57Because obviously, things like Lower Thames Crossing, they've been going on for the best
06:01part of two decades now.
06:02Surely this is the kind of mentality that stops this from happening?
06:05I agree the decision-making on that crossing has taken much too long.
06:09Mind you, that's not untypical, is it?
06:13Look what's happened to HS2 going to the north and how long that's been an issue.
06:21And of course, from a Tunbridge and Moorland perspective, we have concerns that the Lower
06:27Thames Crossing might funnel more traffic down the A228 and Bluebell Hill, which believe
06:33it or not, is still in Tunbridge and Moorland.
06:37Do you hear those concerns, George?
06:39And do you think that the planning application at the moment, like it will mean that there
06:44will be more houses in Dartford.
06:45Can Dartford cope with that as well?
06:47Well, actually, I just want to point out, Dartford has been within its local plan, which
06:52has always been approved.
06:53And we've always managed to be within our housing targets.
06:56One of the reasons we've been successful with what we do with housing is that we've had
07:00a Brownfield First policy in Dartford, which has seen, obviously, the construction of the
07:04Garden City and basically focusing on already urbanised centres, which has prevented unnecessary
07:09green bar development.
07:10So, you know, wards like mine in Wilmington, Sutton and Hawley don't experience a problem,
07:15which David is talking about, where you have rural roads which can't cope.
07:18And essentially, the issue we have is essentially when the crossing clogs up, that's when everything
07:23goes poorly.
07:24You know, most of the time, traffic is flowing freely.
07:29But, you know, when it's bad, it is bad.
07:32And to come back to David's earlier point, I think there might be a bit of confusion
07:35there.
07:36David, sorry if I'm wrong here, but you were talking about basically cutting red tape with
07:40infrastructure projects, but you were talking about having housing decided more locally,
07:45which sounds a bit more of a common sense model, right?
07:47Yes, I agree with that, obviously.
07:54The tests that the last government proposed and which this one and its new planning guidance
08:00in draft still says that the county council, in our case, can't question highway impacts
08:10from development unless the results are severe.
08:14But no one defines what severe might mean, which is unsatisfactory.
08:17Well, I want to kind of ask, because obviously we're giving up the budget right now.
08:21But obviously that will maybe free up some capital investment money for projects going
08:27forward, or it could see capital investment reducing.
08:31Is it something that worries you both?
08:36Yes, I mean, I'm concerned that, again, going back to developments, often the things like
08:42bus services, doctor surgeries and so forth are just not forthcoming.
08:49With local government, really, it's expenditure at the bone.
08:56It's going to be really important what the government does in the budget.
09:00I hope it's not further cuts for local councils.
09:03Is that something that worries you, George, as well?
09:07Yeah, I mean, look, I could come on your show and do the whole Tory-Labour shtick and have
09:12a pop at them. But, you know, what I'm concerned about is this new budget shrinking the
09:17economy rather than growing it.
09:19I've been really concerned by a lot of the messaging from the government recently, which
09:24is not almost, it is talking down the UK.
09:28And I understand they're trying to manage expectations and they're trying to say that it's
09:32going to be difficult. But what really frustrates me is that when you do that, you damage
09:37investor confidence in the UK and companies, individuals are less willing to come and spend
09:42their money here, which has a real, real knock on effect to us on the ground.
09:47That new factory not opening locally means that's 100 jobs lost.
09:51But also we did see a relatively successful investment conference by Rachel Reeves that
09:56did see some money being poured into the UK.
09:59But I think the big concern for a lot of people is whether they're going to be impacted by
10:03potential tax rises.
10:04Obviously, there's rumours of increasing tax on the sale of assets, on shares and
10:08property. And, of course, inheritance tax increases are also being floated as well.
10:13The Chancellor said she had to find £40 billion.
10:16But do you think that your constituents might be concerned about this?
10:20Well, they definitely are in Tunbridge and Morling.
10:23They're definitely concerned already about the cut in the winter fuel allowance.
10:27That's a really big, big issue.
10:29And my personal opinion is that the Labour government should have had a budget much
10:33earlier and not allow this period of not knowing what's going on.
10:39Whatever you think about it, when the coalition came into being, they had the budget
10:44quite soon after the general election.
10:46And I think that would have been a better course to follow.
10:50And George, what about you?
10:53I think David's right there.
10:54I mean, David, you and I can reminisce about the coalition for all day if you want.
10:57But yeah, I mean, look, I think most governments, most incoming governments do their
11:05first budget within four weeks.
11:08And we are well beyond four weeks into this government.
11:10But it has been recessed, though, to be fair.
11:14Yes, and I mean, look, they've had plenty of time to do it.
11:20Basically, if you look at what this government so far, it has been total chaos with what's
11:26gone with Sue Gray in number 10, how they've obviously botched the Lower Thames Crossing
11:32as well. Also, you know, look, actually, funnily enough, I got a text from a friend of
11:38mine today who's sort of in their mid-twenties.
11:40Well, unfortunately, I think we're going to have to leave it there because we're coming up
11:42to our ad break. Thank you both for joining me here on the programme.
11:46We have more politics news from after the break.
11:48Please stick with us.
15:03Welcome back to the Kent Politics Show live on KMTV, the show on your TV that gets Kent's
15:16politicians talking.
15:17And now we're taking a deep dive into Black History Month here in Kent and what it means
15:22for local politics.
15:24And here in Medway, a brand new exhibition has been opened at the historic Dockyard Chatham,
15:28which aims to explore the legacy of the Windrush generation to educate people in Kent about
15:33the impact that Caribbean migrants have had in the UK.
15:43So without any further ado, I want to declare the exhibition officially open.
15:49The legacy of the Windrush generation still alive here in Kent.
15:54Around half a million people emigrated from the Caribbean in the 20 years after the Second
16:00World War, building new lives here in the county and beyond.
16:05Now, a new exhibition at the historic Chatham Dockyard seeks to celebrate that first
16:11generation 40 years on from the beginnings of the Medway African and Caribbean
16:17Association.
16:18I know a lot of the local people are very proud of the exhibition because it tells the
16:24history of their struggles and what they've been through and what they've achieved.
16:28And especially a lot of the younger people in Medway, they get to see that there's a
16:33foundation like MACA here that they can turn to and learn and come along and join and be
16:41a part of. So, yes, it's very, very important for for us to honour the local people and
16:48and and let them have their own exhibition, let them have something.
16:51The first thing you notice when you walk into this exhibition are these, the shackles that
16:56used to chain slaves on a Florida plantation in the 1600s.
17:01This exhibition isn't just about Windrush.
17:04It's the entirety of black history, the good, the bad and the ugly.
17:10Over my shoulder, you can see a section on African civilisation, of the cultures that
17:15existed before British slave galleys arrived on the African coast.
17:20And over here are the living rooms, the kitchens, the places that people used to live
17:25when they came here from 1948 to 1971 to help Britain rebuild.
17:31And this exhibition hopes to educate people here in Medway about the importance of
17:35recognising that legacy and that past.
17:39Our story doesn't necessarily begin and end in slavery and oppression.
17:43We do face oppression every single day of our lives.
17:46But there is so much more about our story that will help to create better understanding.
17:52You know, so we were and are kings, queens, inventors, politicians, teachers, doctors,
17:59nurses, you know, so many different things.
18:02And I think it's important for people to learn more about that so that we can start to
18:07address some of the imbalances and perceptions that people might have about sort of
18:13African and Caribbean communities.
18:15The exhibit is open for the next two weeks, but the message is clear.
18:20Medway's black history isn't going anywhere.
18:24Oliver Leader-de-Sacs for KMTV in Chatham.
18:28Clearly an important legacy there, but what's its impact been on Kent's local politics?
18:40Well, the local government association census from 2022 shows that 90 per cent of
18:46councillors in the UK are white, despite the fact 40 per cent of the population are from
18:51ethnic minorities and less than 2 per cent describe themselves as black, Caribbean or
18:57African. So what needs to be done to open the door for more councillors from diverse
19:01backgrounds? Well, Medway's Deputy Mayor Douglas Hammondish joins me in the studio now.
19:08Douglas, I wanted to ask you, because according to the ONS statistics in 2021, there's
19:15more than 160,000 people in Kent who identify themselves as BAME.
19:21Why do you think that isn't represented in our local politicians?
19:25Well, I think it's a very complicated question.
19:27First of all, thank you for having me on the show.
19:30I truly grateful for the opportunity.
19:32It's a far deeper question than the time permitting.
19:35But loosely speaking, it's about leadership.
19:37It's about making sure people from these diverse communities have aspiration, inspiration
19:44and have the same vehicles to access things such as politics.
19:48What is politics and what can politics do for communities?
19:51I think these are the bigger questions that we need to start to grapple with.
19:55Because Medway is one of the more diverse councils in Kent.
19:59Why do you think some of the district and borough councils are still playing catch up to
20:03some degree compared to our local authority here?
20:07Yeah, our local authority, we really push the bar forward.
20:10Our cabinet is 50-50, split male to female.
20:14We've had three, including myself, obviously, as first citizens of Medway, myself, Nina
20:20Gurung and the current mayor Marion Nesterov.
20:24So we are actively seeking and it's done by design.
20:28You have to be able to openly have some challenging conversations amongst yourselves,
20:34challenge yourselves, challenge your peers in terms of why are parts of your
20:39communities marginalised and what can you do to actually stem the tide and change the
20:44whole dynamic?
20:45Because obviously it's not just the party that you're part of.
20:49It is also Habib Dajan and other councillors on Medway Council, because around 5% of
20:54people in Medway identify as black, Caribbean and African and representation here in
20:58Medway is actually about around 7% based on a bit of research I did.
21:03Do you think that helps build a level of trust in our communities here in Medway?
21:09I think if you take a look at that figure, and although the figure might scare a lot of
21:13people, that's a point in time, it's historical data.
21:16If you take a look at how quick can councils move to make the adjustments to match and
21:22mirror their communities, that's probably the question we need to take a look at.
21:26And there are various programmes you can think about doing.
21:29I know Medway Council are very keen to address that very balance.
21:32But when it's the improper fraction where swathes of the community feel they're not
21:37represented, you do not get trust and trust is very hard to then reassert.
21:43So, again, you've got to take a look at how we recruit people into the organisations,
21:48their actual pathways for career progression.
21:51It's so, so important that people feel when they join a council that they have their
21:59journey mapped out for them so that they can see themselves moving forward in a positive
22:03way. So what we need to do to ensure we get more diverse representative councillors,
22:08that's the key here, representation, ensuring people feel their voices are being heard.
22:13And obviously, there is kind of that tendency to think of councillors as largely older,
22:18largely white. What do we need to do to kind of change that perception?
22:21I think me just sitting here has changed that perception.
22:24As a deputy mayor, proud deputy mayor of Medway, I challenge that stereotype everywhere I
22:29go. People see me and think, you can't be a deputy mayor.
22:32And just the fact that I am and is born out of being supported by a lot of allies
22:38within the community, within our party as well, who really push you forward and take a
22:44look at your skill set, that is where we start to chip away at some of these historical
22:50stereotypes about a certain demographic.
22:53So, yeah, it's a slow moving piece, but I think we're making strides in the right
22:57direction.
22:58Because you were only elected last year as a councillor in 2023 and now you're deputy
23:05mayor. I want to know, like, why did you decide to become a councillor?
23:09Do you kind of see yourself as like a role model for some people from those communities?
23:15Yes, to be to be frankly, when I started as a councillor, I didn't see that far ahead in
23:21terms of me being deputy mayor.
23:22But what seems to happen, and this is why representation matters, everywhere I go,
23:28whether I'm canvassing or whether I'm supporting other councillors or just going to
23:33exhibitions, people ask me for that and they value me being in those positions.
23:38So that compelled me to say, OK, fine, representation does matter because if I can
23:43inspire the next generation to aim higher, that's what I need to do.
23:48Because was there political role models like yourself when you were growing up?
23:54Was there someone that you could look to and go, that could be me one day in Westminster,
23:59in Gunwarf, in a local authority, in a position of power?
24:03Was that something you saw growing up?
24:05Yeah, there are quite a few people I respected in the political arena growing up.
24:12If you look at like civil rights movements, Nelson Mandela, Steve Biko, I'm a big fan of
24:16Steve Biko's writing, being able to articulate your challenges just using your pen,
24:21thinking in ink is very, very important.
24:23Outside of that, there are other characters that are not necessarily political characters,
24:28but nevertheless have moved me forward in a positive way to say I need to take the
24:32mantle like Albert Einstein.
24:34People that really try to change the world, I gravitate to those stories.
24:39So everywhere I go, I encourage people to tell bigger stories about themselves.
24:43Marginalised communities, people from diverse backgrounds typically tell themselves
24:48very stories that do not allow them to grow outside and out of the pain that they've
24:57gone through.
24:58Because obviously there are, particularly in a year of so many tensions in our
25:03communities, in Kent and beyond, have you ever experienced any discrimination since
25:07you've taken on the role as a councillor, as a mayor, from people in Medway or even
25:13from fellow councillors?
25:14No, we are a tight ship, and I must say that.
25:17And we have this word, there's a word being panned around called allyship.
25:23Majority of the party are white, however, they're allies.
25:28They are people that believe in me, they believe in each other.
25:32So when you work in an environment that's so supportive, those instances are less
25:37canvassing now.
25:39That's a different beast.
25:40You're seeing people on their own terms.
25:43You're knocking on doors and they have the ability to shut the door on you, say what
25:46they need to say. But one thing I can express here, the citizens of Medway, they've
25:52been so accommodating, so welcoming.
25:54Yes, they might have utterance to say something to you, but it's up to you to
25:58challenge that. And when they know that you're coming there to add value, I think
26:04they can, they can change their mind and can give you a chance to express yourself.
26:08It's so inspirational.
26:10Thank you so much for joining me, Douglas, during Black History Month.
26:13It's been great speaking to you.
26:15But before we go, there are lots of other ways you can keep in touch with politics
26:19here in Kent and at Westminster.
26:20For the latest news and views, watch the Kent Politics podcast or read the Kent
26:24Politics briefing directly to your inbox.
26:27You can also head to w.kentonline.org slash Kent slash politics for all the latest
26:33news and views.
26:37But that is everything we have time for on the Kent Politics show this evening.
26:41Thank you for watching. Catch up on all our old episodes on our website.
26:45Stick around for Kent tonight.
26:46I'll see you soon.