Catch up on the latest political news from across Kent with Oliver Leader De Saxe, joined by Cllr Shane Mochrie-Cox, Deputy Leader of Gravesham Borough Council (Labour), and Danny Nicklen, local Councillor for Ebbsfleet ward on Dartford Council (Conservative)
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TVTranscript
00:00Hello and welcome to the Kent Politics Show live on KMTV, the show that gets Kent's politicians
00:27talking.
00:28It's time for Leaders of the Sacks and while Parliament may not be back from recess just
00:31yet, the Kent Politics Show is back after the summer break and a lot has happened in
00:36the last few weeks.
00:38From government housing targets to a clearer picture of which national infrastructure
00:42projects are getting the axe.
00:45And nowhere is that more important than in North Kent's bustling commuter belt, where
00:50trains strike resolutions and the introduction of the Lower Thames Crossing would mean both
00:54things for both Gravesham and Dartford.
00:58Joining me to make sense of it all is Councillor Shane Mockrey-Cox, deputy leader of Gravesham
01:03Borough Council and Danny Nicklin, local Conservative councillor for Epsling Ward on Dartford Council.
01:12Thank you very much for both joining me this evening.
01:15But first tonight, elsewhere in North Kent, Tom Tugendhat has been touring the county
01:21making his case to become the next Conservative leader.
01:25The Tunbridge MP began his regional tour in Chatham, a former Tory stronghold that was
01:30won by Labour in July.
01:32He believes the key to revitalising his party's fortunes lies in revolutionary change.
01:38Though it's difficult to predict the direction the party should take with four years of Labour
01:43government ahead of them.
01:45Our local reporter Gabriel Morris was with the MP earlier today.
01:50At Chatham Towns Ground today, making his pitch to Conservative members.
01:55Tom Tugendhat is in the line-up to be the next Tory leader.
01:58He's been across Kent today trying to score more support, kicking off in what was one
02:04of the county's safest Conservative seats till the general election, where Labour booted
02:09his party out.
02:10What we need to do is we need to be bringing back Tory voters from all parts.
02:14Of course we need those who chose reform to come back.
02:17We also need those who chose Labour or the Lib Dems or those who stayed away to come
02:21back.
02:22What we need to do is offer a proper Conservative agenda that makes sure that we are investing
02:26in people.
02:27And that means investing in belonging, investing in place and giving people that sense of identity,
02:32that pride in our community that is so important.
02:35The Shadow Security Minister said he has a record of delivering and that a revolutionary
02:39change is needed within the party.
02:41But for lifelong Conservative members, what direction do they think their party needs
02:46to go in?
02:47I believe that a lot of the outcome of the recent election was because people didn't
02:52understand what we stand for, which is small government, low taxation.
02:58Some of the actions that have been taken in the last couple of years dealing with instances
03:02such as the pandemic, for example, they weren't necessarily our traditional policies that
03:09were employed to deal with that.
03:11And this is where we have to get back to core values.
03:15However, members won't get a vote until MPs whittle the six-storey hopefuls down to two.
03:20If the Tunbridge MP wins the contest, his chance to become Prime Minister won't likely
03:25be until 2029.
03:27Well, look, we've got four years of opposition, which is appalling, but we've got four years
03:32of Labour overspending, under-delivering that we're going to have to correct for.
03:36So I'm not going to be making commitments on what changes need to be done, because I'm
03:39sure that Labour will be damaging so much between now and then, it's hard to predict.
03:44His party might have been relegated from the government earlier this year, but a Kent
03:48Tory hopeful believes he has what it takes to gain Conservative promotion back to number
03:5410 once more.
03:56Gabriel Morris in Chatham.
03:58Well, joining me to discuss this more is Danny Nicklin, the local Conservative councillor
04:03for Ebbsfleet, and Shane Mockrey-Cox, the deputy leader from Gravesham Borough Council.
04:09And Danny, I want to start with you, actually, because it's quite interesting.
04:12I've noticed the Conservatives in Dartford go under the local Conservative moniker, and
04:17I was wondering, do you and your group feel disconnected from the National Party going
04:22into this leadership contest?
04:25Hi, thanks for having me.
04:26Hopefully you can hear me OK.
04:29Well, in Dartford, we're very much focused on local people's priorities.
04:32We always have done, and that's reflected in the ballot box.
04:36But national politics, whilst we take a leaning trip, we're much more focused on local
04:41issues than that side.
04:44Sorry, I think you're slightly crackling up there, but I do want to ask before we went
04:49on from you was, obviously, what you've got a while to go to make your voice heard as
04:53a grassroots Conservative.
04:55What do you make of Tom Tugendhat as a local councillor, as a local
05:00Conservative voice, as someone who could lead the party potentially?
05:04Do you think he would make a good choice for the leaders of the Conservatives here in
05:08Kent and beyond?
05:11Yeah, I think Tom's got a really good chance.
05:13I've been backing him. I think he's got a lot of good points, makes a lot of sense, and
05:17I wish him the best of luck.
05:19Well, we're going to you, Shane, because I won't be asking you who you're supporting in
05:23the Conservative leadership race, and I wouldn't be preaching to the choir on that one, I
05:26don't think. But are there any contenders in this race that you
05:32think would give Labour a harder time in government than others?
05:35Who do you think would be the most difficult leader that could come out on top going
05:39forward?
05:40Well, first of all, I don't know if I support Chatham Town's new signing, by the
05:44looks of it, in Tom Tugendhat.
05:46I think he's got a lot to do to prove himself, not just on the football pitch, but
05:49certainly as a potential leader of the opposition.
05:53Look, it's up to the Conservatives to choose who they want to be the next leader of the
05:57opposition. And it's right that they have that debate, as each party has their own
06:01debate. It wouldn't be right for me to intervene in their own internal
06:06leadership contest, as I don't expect anyone else to do so for anyone else's.
06:09That's just the right thing to do. But it's good for democracy to have strong
06:12opposition. And I look forward to there being a leader of the opposition for the
06:16Conservative Party that can hold the government to account in a positive and
06:20productive way. That's really what good democracy should be about.
06:23Obviously, Graysham and Dartford were both painted red earlier this year in the
06:28general election. I want to go to you, Shane, because obviously, as a local Labour
06:33voice, what are you hearing on the doorstep?
06:35Why do you think voters in North Kent reject the Conservative Party when they
06:39went to the polls earlier this year?
06:41What do you think was the big cause in North Kent over this?
06:45I don't think there was one big issue.
06:46I think cost of living crisis certainly came up.
06:49I think local issues come up. All politics is local, as the saying goes.
06:52So there were some local issues that mattered.
06:54But actually, it was a variety of issues, from cost of living, energy costs, from
06:58taking even to potholes and to dealing with even the rubbish.
07:03Anything that could help bring people
07:08out. Those issues really were so varied.
07:12And it's important, though, we just listen and act as local politicians in that
07:15regard. And Danny will know, as a local councillor himself, our job as
07:19politicians is to respond to those things.
07:21And there isn't a single issue, I think, that led to the victory.
07:25It was a multitude of things and a multitude of things that led to the
07:27Conservative defeat.
07:29And I think that to paint it as one issue, I think would be wrong because
07:33actually people vote for a variety of different reasons.
07:35Danny, what do you think, because obviously Dartford, a bellwether seat, has voted
07:39with the governing party for years now.
07:42What do you think caused people in Dartford, despite it being a local
07:46Conservative-led council, made it a
07:50Labour win at the general election?
07:54Well, I agree that there's a multitude of issues, but
08:00government needs to respond to people's priority and the
08:04argument would go away.
08:06But we need to learn the lesson from people and we need to win back their
08:10trust. That's what we intend to do.
08:13Brilliant. Well, we're moving on to our next topic now.
08:17While we're on the topic of government, the new Labour administration may have
08:21struck a deal with the trade union Aslef, which could be welcome news to Kent's
08:26commuters. But at what cost?
08:29The new offer is for a 5% backdated pay rise for 2022 to 2023.
08:33A 4.75% rise for 2020 to 2024 and
08:37a 4.5% increase for 2024 to 2025.
08:41That's a deal claimed to be worth £100 million.
08:46Aslef said the new deal was a no-strings-offer, meaning it's not conditional on
08:50changes to working practices, which is a big sticking point for the last
08:54Conservative government. With Dartford and Gradient both having some of the busiest
08:58train lines in the county, what does that mean going forward?
09:03Now, Danny, I want to go to you again first on this one, just because obviously
09:08Ebbsfleet International is such a rail connection hotspot for so
09:12many in North Kent and beyond.
09:15And will this be welcome news for your constituents in your ward?
09:18What do you think they will make of this news?
09:23Well, it's great that the strikes look like they're coming to an end for the unions.
09:30The worry is that, well, what's the next stage of it?
09:33So it looks as though, according to Aslef, of the LNER line, they're going to be
09:39striking again from the mid-November over another
09:44week in terms of conditions.
09:46So we do need to get a grip because it does impact our constituents
09:51locally in both Dartford and Gravesham.
09:54We're lucky the High Street line often not impacted much by the other lines.
10:01So I welcome the news that the government is helping the unions.
10:05We need to make sure we don't start a whole saga with more demands from the
10:11government, which leads to disruption of normalcy.
10:15Now, Shane, obviously, we have heard there's been more strikes announced.
10:20It is a huge price tag for the UK government, especially given some of the
10:24finances that Rachel Reeves has mentioned.
10:27Do you think this is the right thing to do for people in Gravesham and people across
10:32Kent to make this deal?
10:33Obviously, there's a lot of money at stake here.
10:37I think it's one of several deals that have been made, including, one could argue, with
10:40the NHS and helping our doctors and nurses and our well-needed health services to
10:45get the pay rises they need.
10:47Look, what it required is people to come around the table and discuss and what there
10:50was was willing to do so to agree a way forward.
10:54We've got to remember inflation hit high.
10:56So the figures you quoted, Oliver, were backdated for several years when inflation
11:00was exceptionally high. And that's when we talk about the cost of living crisis for
11:04issues that mattered in the election.
11:05This was one of those issues.
11:06We've got to remember that the people that are in Aslefthorpe, train drivers and work
11:11in the rails, are constituents as well.
11:13They are residents. They live in the UK.
11:15And so they're entitled to a good working life as well, as well as everybody else.
11:20And that is the good thing about having trade unions, by making sure that everyone can
11:23work together for a positive outcome for people that are seeking to live and put food
11:27on the table.
11:29I think we could talk about train strikes and the impacts on commuters all day.
11:34But we have to go to a very, very quick break now.
11:38But after the break, we talk about housing in North Kent.
11:42Who's getting a good deal? Is it fair?
11:43And how should we tackle the crisis in affordability?
14:43Welcome back to the Kent Politics Show live on KMTV.
15:10Still with me discussing all the news from across Kent is Councillor Shane Mockrey-Cox,
15:15Deputy Leader of Gravesham Borough Council and, of course, Danny Nicklin, the
15:20councillor from Northfleet Ward and Dartford Council.
15:23But just before all of that, next tonight's house building proposals in by the new
15:30government means thousands of new homes across Kent are going to be built.
15:34Under previous targets, the county was expected to build more than 12,000 homes a
15:38year, but it's set to rise to almost 14,000 with areas like Tunbridge Wells,
15:44Tunbridge and Moorling and Dover all being expected to build more.
15:48With fears for the future of the Greenbelt land, Kent politicians are torn by the
15:54proposals. Well, I caught up with Matt Boulton, leader of Tunbridge and Moorling
15:57Council a few weeks ago, and he told KMTV that he feels these targets are
16:02politically motivated.
16:04If this was about housing delivery, then surely all council areas should be
16:09expected to contribute.
16:11The reality is Tunbridge and Moorling has got many more constraints and
16:16protections on our land than other authorities, including Medway, yet we're
16:22being asked to take more and they're being asked to take fewer.
16:27I think what we heard there is quite interesting, actually, Shane and Danny,
16:31because the inverse is almost true in Gravesham and Dartford, because there's
16:35now higher targets in your borough, Shane, and lower in Dartford.
16:39I want to go start with you first.
16:40Do you think the housing targets for the borough are fair?
16:46I think we've seen quite a lot of development in the while in the entire
16:50area. I think Danny, you represent Evesfleet, which has been a garden city and
16:54was created under George Osborne.
16:55So we've seen quite a lot of development.
16:57I think what we need to focus on, it isn't just homes we're talking about here.
17:01We are talking about the infrastructure that comes with it.
17:03And one of the most important things and the differences we're looking at is
17:06housing tenure.
17:08It isn't just about luxury housing.
17:10We need affordable housing, truly affordable housing.
17:13And we need to look at council housing for the first time in a very long time and
17:17infrastructure that comes with that, because actually it's the mix that's
17:20required. People have a right to have homes.
17:23They have a right to have good homes and they have a right to have a mix of tenure
17:27and so it is right that we have that and it needs to be in the right place.
17:30But it needs to come with the infrastructure.
17:31And that's usually the biggest issue that people say on the doorstep is about the
17:34infrastructure, not just the homes.
17:36And what would you make of that, Danny?
17:38Obviously, Dartford was, I think, impacted by the urban uplift, if I believe.
17:43So what do you make of the new housing targets?
17:45Do you welcome them? Do you think there is a high demand for housing in your
17:50ward, in your council?
17:53Well, in Evesfleet we are leading the way.
17:56The Garden City is going to have about 15,000 houses by 2032.
18:02Something Shane said, but what people say when they're in their constituencies,
18:08that's the right type of housing.
18:10We need more housing.
18:13I agree we need to build more infrastructure to support that housing.
18:17But I mean, it's interesting that we need to use public money to buy an area of
18:22farmland in the A27, to the tune of about £1.5m, to my understanding, to prevent the
18:29development. So we can't just talk the talk.
18:33We need to build new homes.
18:34I know it's a bit difficult for some people, but ultimately, we do need more homes.
18:41We need to fix tenure, we need to build more houses.
18:47The right to reply, Ollie, for the development.
18:50What Danny was referring to, the land south of the A2 and the A27 was bought, not just
18:56saved from development, to create a natural space between the urban areas and the rural
19:00areas, which is actually something that's recommended in the NPPF and the local plan
19:05guidance. But actually, it was also to do biodiversity net gain, a piece of legislation
19:09introduced under the Conservatives, so that when developers cannot produce biodiversity
19:14net gain, they can offset it by increasing that and invest in that.
19:18And without that land in place, developers wouldn't have been able to do it and targets
19:23could not have been met. So actually, it's to enhance biodiversity.
19:26And that was in the public domain.
19:28I'm sure you read that, Danny.
19:30I think what's quite interesting is obviously both Gravesham and Dartford weren't
19:35actually meeting their yearly targets of housing before the changes were brought in.
19:41Dartford only building 610 on average in 2020 to 2023, much lower than its nearly 800
19:47goal previously.
19:48And Gravesham was only building 363 rather than 661.
19:56Is the issue here not necessarily the amount of housing, but delivery on actually
20:00building those houses that's coming in these local plans that the government is
20:04demanding being built?
20:06We're not going to meet those targets at the current rates.
20:08Houses are being developed across both councils, surely?
20:12Well, if I can come in there, this is why we need to encourage competition.
20:17We've been relying on private developers to build new development.
20:21And the pace of planning as well, local development has been too slow.
20:26I welcome the government's attempt to streamline the planning process to ensure more
20:32housing comes forward.
20:33But we need to encourage competition with more affordable homes being built that have a
20:39role to play. We need to look to speed up the new properties, new communities in both
20:49Dartford and Gravesham.
20:51I think it's important to say Dartford and Gravesham are not by natural, they were
20:54authorities, not developers.
20:56So although the housing target is given to us, planning has its streamlined nature.
21:02It can be more streamlined.
21:04But actually, as Danny said, it's about delivery for that.
21:07And there aren't the powers to effectively enforce delivery.
21:09We end up with loads of planned applications going through and then land being held or
21:14swapped or not being able to be developed on.
21:15So there needs to be a level of enforcement, a level of inability to land bank.
21:21And that requires a bit of reform of the sector to ensure that actually it moves towards
21:26delivery rather than just planning permission and holding it.
21:29And that's going to require a little bit of possible and comfortable change for the
21:32sector as we move forward to meeting these targets.
21:36I think just before we move on from this topic, what would you like to see in regards to
21:39those reforms? You mentioned there needs to be some changes.
21:42What are the changes that you would like to see as someone who helps run a pretty
21:47sizable borough council here in Kent?
21:50I think there needs to be quite a lot of reform of the CPO powers.
21:53Currently, you have to pay quite over the top dollar, if you will, if you're trying to
21:59get a site moving or it keeps flipping.
22:01If you want to bring that forward, you have to pay over the odds.
22:04Actually, it should be paid based on the value that it is at the moment.
22:09So there needs to be reforms like that to bring it forward.
22:12Also, it requires a bit of investment.
22:13Danny's right. It's not just about competition, though.
22:15It is about if we want council homes, we need to increase the competition of people's
22:19choice. And that also means making sure we have mixed tenure rather than just letting
22:24developers choose the market.
22:25We need to make sure that the market meets everybody's needs, not just in terms of
22:29houses, but in terms of types of houses, tenure and flats and houses.
22:34So if we give that mix then and that choice, then that should lead to a better housing
22:38market because currently it's not working.
22:40And for one type of development to another, obviously, big infrastructure projects are
22:46a major issue across Kent.
22:49And last month was announced government funding for the proposed Lower Thames crossing
22:53had not been scrapped by the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
22:58Rachel Reeves has taken the axe in a string of schemes last month amid what she claims
23:03is a £22 billion black hole in accounts left by the previous government.
23:08But how will it be funded? Will private investment be brought in to take down the cost
23:13of the £9 billion scheme?
23:15Will it actually get the nod in October?
23:17Well, the local democracy reporting service spoke to Dartford's new Labour MP, Jim
23:21Dixon, about this, and he says the link will be vital.
23:26When we have the planning decision on the 4th of October, I'm looking forward to a
23:31positive decision from the Department for Transport who will be looking at this and
23:36then we can go forward and really look at how we finance this and get it built as soon
23:41as possible. And I'm hoping that that may well be in the next sort of six to seven
23:46years. I know that seems a long time, but that's quite quick in national infrastructure
23:49terms. And I'll be pushing every step of the way for that to happen.
23:54Obviously, Dan, it is something that you have supported, but obviously it's going to
23:58take the best part of a decade to build.
24:02Do you think that's good enough for you and your ward, your constituents, for the
24:07people of Dartford, businesses there?
24:10Well, funny enough, I met Jim Dixon this morning on one of the issues, and that was the
24:15Lower Thames crossing. We both agree that we need the Lower Thames crossing, and we
24:20needed it yesterday. It's taken too long to get the most consulted national
24:26infrastructure team. We've had so many consultations, I think it's just the time to get on and
24:32build the piece of national infrastructure needed to benefit Dartford.
24:40We desperately need it, and I do hope we get it done early October.
24:46Well, Shane, this has not been something that you've been particularly keen on.
24:51Do you think that with throwing good money after bad on this?
24:55£300 million has been spent so far.
24:58Obviously, it seems that people of Dartford really want this, really need this.
25:03But do you think that this is a necessary project for people in your local district?
25:10I'm sure Danny and Jim are doing the best for their residents, and that's exactly their
25:14right, and we're trying to do the best for ours in Gravesham.
25:17This infrastructure project, as you've said, has already cost £300 million without so much as a
25:21shovel in the ground.
25:23Imagine how many pieces of infrastructure that could have solved in what is already a
25:28county that has many transport issues.
25:31What we could have done in terms of our train investment, our bus investment, and to
25:35encourage people to get out of their cars, that £300 million could have gone a long way.
25:39It's currently through the development consent order process, the sort of government planning
25:43permission. It will go there.
25:45We've lobbied hard against it at Gravesham County Council, we've consistently been hard against it.
25:49But if it does go ahead, we want to make sure we get the best possible deal for local
25:52residents as well. So it's got to make sure that it works because it's OK trying to alleviate
25:57the problems at Dartford. We do not want to create the problems that Dartford have
26:00experienced, and they have experienced quite a lot.
26:03We do not want to repeat that in Gravesham as well.
26:07So we need to make sure that this benefits residents if it does happen and it benefits them
26:12exceptionally well.
26:13Very quickly, just before we go, 15 years.
26:16It's a long time for an infrastructure project.
26:19Very quickly, what do you both think needs to be done to make, to speed up these projects?
26:25Well, the infrastructure projects have to take a bit, and that's why we need to be easier
26:30and quicker in planning consultation process.
26:36I think it needs things like that need to showcase the benefits, but also the problem with
26:39the early terms crossing in some ways is it only focuses on that.
26:42It needs to focus on the wider benefits of how it could link up everything in that way.
26:46That's the problem. Well, that's all we have time for The Kent Politics Show.
26:49See you at Kent tonight, a little later on.