Catch up on the latest political news from across Kent with Oliver Leader de Saxe joined by Maidstone Borough Council Deputy Leader Clive English (Lib Dem) and Conservative Group Leader Claudine Russell.
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00:00Welcome to the Kent Politics Show, live on KMTV, the only show on your TV that gets Kent's
00:28politicians talking. I'm Oliver Leader-The-Sax, and with one week to go until polling day,
00:33we're taking a deep dive into the Maidstone and Moorling, previously known as Maidstone
00:38and the Weald. Conservative-controlled since 1997, the North Kent seat has relatively divided
00:45the electorate this time around, according to MRP Polling. The same can be said for Maidstone
00:50Borough Council itself, which has felt far swayed from its existence, under no overall control.
00:56With the Rainbow Coalition currently running the show and a local plan to deliver, there's plenty
01:01to discuss. Joining me to make sense of it all is Maidstone leader and Liberal Democrat councillor
01:06Clive English, and Conservative group leader and Marder and Wealding ward councillor Claudine
01:12Russell. But before all of that, Kent has seen its fair share of campaign visits from National
01:19Party leaders, eager to shore up support over the last five weeks. But only one has to say
01:25that he's no Putin sympathiser. That was the message from Reform UK leader Nigel Farage,
01:32as he held a campaign rally in Maidstone on Monday. Some pollsters have Mr Farage as party
01:37second in the overall election race, with Maidstone and Moorling now being a target constituency for
01:43Reform UK. I was there at the campaign bus earlier this week to see what the former UKIP leader had
01:49to say to voters in Kent. As you can see, the Reform UK battle bus has turned up just
01:55outside Maidstone. This is where Nigel Farage, the Reform UK leader, made an impassioned speech
02:01alongside his local candidate, Paul Thomas. Maidstone is polling around 20.1% in favour
02:08of Reform, according to YouGov. That makes him second place here in the election contest at
02:14current time. And they think they have a chance here, but it isn't just about the local politics.
02:21Nigel Farage made an impassioned speech about foreign policy. Obviously he's been called a
02:27Putin apologist over the weekend, labelled as such by opposition parties, angry at his comments
02:33about the Ukraine-Russian conflict. Here was his response from atop the battle bus.
02:39I was alone. I was the only person in 2014 who said there will be a war in Ukraine.
02:51I can't take those words away, and nor would I want to. The fact that I was more farsighted
02:58than the rest of our political leaders is not something that I'm going to apologise for. And
03:04yet this has been turned into Farage makes outrageous statement. Farage defends Putin.
03:11Well, I've done none of those things. I would never ever defend Putin and think his behaviour
03:18in Ukraine and elsewhere has been reprehensible. Maidstone has been under Conservative control
03:23since 2010 under Helen Grant. And people here, the packed-out crowd who were applauding
03:30Nigel Farage's feisty speech, seem to be former Conservative voters.
03:34I asked them what drove them to reform the UK here in the constituency.
03:39None of the other parties have anything to offer. Labour, in my opinion,
03:43are the same as the Conservatives. There's no difference, hardly.
03:47I've always voted for the Conservatives, and I've always felt that not voting for them was a waste.
03:53But I think now that with the Reform Party there is a chance for somebody else to do something good
03:58and it's not a waste to vote anymore.
04:00Well, I loved everything he said, absolutely every sentence I relate to. I myself came to
04:10this country about 23 years ago. I did not come on a dinghy. And I had to go through all the
04:17channels and pay a lot of money to go where I am today to be able to work and contribute to
04:24the economy. And I expect everyone to do the same, not to be freeloaders in here,
04:30coming and taking, and also to have respect for the country that took you in.
04:35I voted for the Conservative Party for over 60 years. I'll never vote for them again.
04:40They're just a bunch of liars. All they said to us has just been told lie after lie.
04:45Now I think the Reform Party is the way this country should go.
04:50And for a full list of candidates for all of Kent's seats,
04:53just go to Kent Online. For Kermadecen and Moorland, the candidates are as follows.
04:58Gary Butler for the British Democratic Party, Maureen Cleater for the Labour Party,
05:03Helen Grant for the Conservative and Unionist Party, Stuart Robert Jeffery for the Green Party,
05:08Yolande Anne Kenwood for the Independents, David Sangrunaghi for the Liberal Democrats,
05:14and Paul Thomas for Reform UK.
05:16Now, once again, joining me is Maidstone deputy leader Clive English and Conservative
05:21group leader Claudine Russell. Thank you so much for joining me on the sofa.
05:25Claudine, I wanted to go to you first, because obviously lots of those Reform voters,
05:29they seem to be former Conservative voters that are no longer voting Conservative.
05:35Is it something that worries you as a Conservative in Maidstone,
05:38that you're going to lose the support of historic voters in the constituency?
05:42I mean, I think, obviously, people are disenfranchised and we do get that.
05:46It's not that we don't get that. But personally, I mean, Helen's always really helped me out.
05:52I've had a couple of issues, water supply issues and stuff in the village.
05:56She's really helped me out. So I think people should, whoever they're voting for,
05:59just read everything that they've got, read all the manifestos and make their minds up on that basis.
06:05Because Clive is not just the Conservatives that seem to be struggling with Reform.
06:10The polls have just 0.1% in it between you and Reform in second place,
06:16you and the Liberal Democrats, I mean. Why do you think Reform are slightly
06:20beating out your party here in Maidstone? Is there any reason for that, do you think?
06:25First of all, you can't be entirely sure when you interpret a Merp poll to a constituency
06:30poll that you've taken local factors into account. They're notably bad at doing that.
06:36And so you've got to be very careful. But secondly, I think the Liberal Democrats at
06:42the last general election very clearly tried to contest too many seats. We were campaigning
06:47actively in about 200 seats across the country. The party's strategy this time is to concentrate
06:54our resources in 80 seats, which we are confident that we, on a good day, would win.
07:01In Kent, that means that our strategy overall is to target Tunbridge Wells,
07:06where we are increasingly confident of a very good result. That doesn't mean we're neglecting
07:12Maidstone, but we do need to target our resources as we're limited in our finances compared to some
07:18of the other parties. Having said that, I would be very, very surprised if the Reform party
07:25came near to winning in Maidstone. On none of the projections I've seen
07:29on any of the Merp polls have Reform won Maidstone notionally. The receipts, they are
07:35winning on the polls, but Maidstone and Morning is not one of them.
07:40What interests me a lot about Maidstone is that it has been Conservative for more than two decades,
07:44Helen Grant being the latest MP for the area. But looking at the polls, Labour, Reform UK,
07:52the Liberal Democrats, all three are polling around 20%. There's not really much in it between
07:57them. And while the Conservatives are around 32% in the polls. And it makes me think, is the reason
08:04why there's been Conservative majorities not necessarily a love for the Conservative party,
08:08but more because these minor parties, these smaller parties, parties in second and third
08:12place are splitting the vote that seems to be against the Conservatives? Or would you say
08:17there is a genuine love for the local candidate? Let's go to you first, Claudine.
08:22I mean, I think there is a genuine love for the local candidate. She works hard.
08:26Don't forget also Maidstone Borough was split between the two Helens. And now, obviously,
08:30with the new constituency, we've got Katie for the Weald. So there will be three MPs that will
08:36cover the Maidstone Borough. But I think, you know, Helen Grant in particular, she's really
08:41hardworking. She's helped me with loads of local issues. And I think she's got a lot of young
08:46people campaigning with her. And that just shows that, yes, whilst she's been there a long time,
08:50obviously, there's still appeal. I would say that Helen's appeal, unfortunately for her,
08:56was very much greater. I'm not saying there isn't an appeal in the remaining constituency,
09:02but her support was very much concentrated in the Weald part of Maidstone and the Weald,
09:08and that is no longer in the Maidstone and the Moorland seat. The Moorland residents have not
09:13had Helen as an MP. So it's in a completely blank slate in terms of experience. Obviously,
09:21they haven't had anyone else as an MP either. But that sort of historic track record you get in a
09:27lot of constituencies simply isn't there for anyone. I think in Maidstone, the issue has been
09:33that it isn't clear who the main challenger to the Conservative Party has been. I believe it is
09:39the Liberal Democrats, but we had a particularly poor result for a number of reasons at the last
09:44general election, which has muddied the waters. I think things have moved on since then, but it
09:50hasn't been clear to a number of voters, and that's why the polling is as it is.
09:56It's quite an interesting thing that you mentioned. Obviously, everyone assumes Maidstone
09:59Borough Council is just Maidstone and Moorland, but Faversham and Millkent is obviously a big
10:03area of it, and the new Weald constituency as well. We don't even know which way it's going
10:08to go yet. Polls indicate Conservative, but we're not necessarily sure what the new seat
10:12could bring. Do you think these boundary changes are going to change the electoral
10:16landscape that much, or do you think it's just going to be a slight readjustment for some voters
10:22who are local candidates? I think the boundary changes have changed a great deal in Kent,
10:28both at local authority level, where you saw a massive impact in the council elections in
10:32Maidstone this year, and also in the general election. I would disagree with you. I think
10:38it's almost certain that the Conservatives will win the Weald. If they don't win the Weald,
10:43the Conservative Party in Parliament is going to be very, very small, below any projections I've
10:48seen. The rest of Kent, however, is very much up for grabs, because if you look at the polls,
10:56you can pick almost any winner you like for a number of the constituencies. So you look at
11:04Faversham and Mid Kent, or Maidstone and Morley, and the projections are not clear at all as to
11:09who's likely to win. Very quickly, just before the break, obviously it's not just the divided
11:16national landscape here in Maidstone, it's also the local parties struggling to get majorities
11:21here quite often. Very quickly, just in a sentence or two, why do you think that is?
11:24Let's go to you first, Claudine. I mean, people want different things. I think it's just a true
11:29reflection of how the vote went. But I would say voter turnout is low and getting lower,
11:34so that's probably one of the bigger issues. And you, Clive? I don't think it's really about
11:38turnout, particularly. I think in Maidstone, for example, and Morley, you've got a very mixed
11:44demography, and that's why you get different results. Well, I'm going to have to cut you off
11:48there, because we're about to go to a break. Coming up after the break, more about the local
11:53plan, and we'll see you in a few minutes.
14:53Welcome back to the Kent Politics Show, live on KMTV, the show that gets Kent's politicians
15:15talking. Still joining me is Maidstone deputy leader and Liberal Democrat councillor Clive
15:20English, and Conservative group leader and Martin and Yording ward councillor Claudine Russell.
15:26Next tonight, the first stage in the legal challenge to a massive housing development
15:31at Lenman Heath has hit a hurdle. A campaign group applied to the High Court for a judicial review
15:37to Maidstone Borough Council's plan to build 5,000 houses as part of its local plan.
15:42With a new party in control of the local authority, will that make any difference?
15:46Our local democracy reporter Gabriel Morris was at the public meeting last night about all of this.
15:53These fields earmarked for a massive development. In the recently adopted local plan,
15:595,000 homes are outlined for Lenman Heath. A campaign group has been seeking a judicial review
16:06against Maidstone Borough Council, but updating this packed out community hall,
16:12well, they told locals it had failed.
16:14What happens next, and we were very prepared for this, is that we ask for permission for an oral
16:21hearing with the judge, with a High Court judge. And in that, our barrister will make the case
16:26as to why we believe our legal challenge of the Maidstone local plan should go before a formal
16:33hearing with the High Court. It was a Conservative-led authority that adopted the plan earlier
16:39this year, but since, there's been an election. The newly elected Green Party leader opposes the
16:45scheme, and he says he plans to urgently review the local plan.
16:49We cannot start it until we're out of the pre-election period, at the very earliest,
16:54which is in about a week's time. There is a process to go through within the council to get
17:01to that point, but as soon as decently possible, we will start that local plan again, and we will
17:09work on a better plan next time.
17:12Councils will often say it's important to have a local plan, because without it,
17:16there's little argument for planning committees to turn down development.
17:19But equally, land earmarked for homes will be attractive to developers.
17:24People do need houses, but they need to be the right kind of houses,
17:28in the right place. And that's the principle that we're working on, as the parish council.
17:33Parliamentary candidates from the local area were also there.
17:36The proposed development on Heathlands,
17:38described sometimes as the Heathlands Garden Village, but around 5,000 homes,
17:42which I oppose, and I have opposed every step of the way for the last five years,
17:46working alongside the campaign group to try and stop this development.
17:49I am totally, 100% behind the reasons why they oppose this site. It's huge.
17:56The impact it's going to have on the environment, the strain on the infrastructure is massive.
18:00The campaign group to save Lenham Heath has been ongoing for years,
18:03but a council leader says a review could take more than three years.
18:08Gabriel Morris in Lenham.
18:13Well, I'm still joined by Claudine and Russell. There's lots of controversy surrounding this
18:18plan. And given that the leader of Maidstone Council is looking to review the plan,
18:21I want to go to you, Clive, as the deputy leader.
18:24Is this something that you agree with? Do you want to see a review?
18:26Do you support the local plan at the moment?
18:30It's not a question of whether I support the local plan.
18:33It's been adopted. There is no legal process for unadopting the local plan.
18:37So whether I support it or not is completely academic.
18:41Although I did vote against it with all of my group at the previous meeting,
18:45but it's been adopted and we can't unadopt it.
18:47Therefore, we can only proceed with a review at the earliest opportunity.
18:53I want to go to you, Claudine, because it was a Conservative-led council
18:56that voted through the local plan earlier this year just for the local elections.
19:00Do you think the local plan delivers for your constituents,
19:04or do you want to see a review a bit like the current administration at Maidstone Borough Council?
19:10No, I think the local plan is the best safeguard for our borough.
19:13Without a local plan, you'll just get mass overdevelopment anywhere.
19:17And it's important. Everyone always says the right homes in the right places.
19:21Yes, but with the right infrastructure, that's really important.
19:24And actually on some of these larger allocations, because the larger allocations are one thing.
19:29There is also a massive amount of dispersal already within this adopted local plan.
19:34It's not like you just do the large allocations and that's it.
19:37Over the whole plan period, we need to plan for nearly 18,000 houses.
19:41So that is a massive number.
19:43So you can say dispersal is the way forward, but dispersal came in the last local plan.
19:49All of the rural service centres, all of the villages,
19:51without a shadow of a doubt, will say we've got no infrastructure.
19:54Our infrastructure is creaking. Our sewerage systems are creaking.
19:57So with some of these bigger allocations, the only thing that you will get that I think
20:03is very beneficial, very unlike dispersal, is big infrastructure.
20:12So there's a slight problem with the microphone.
20:14So we'll go quickly to a little promo, because normally you can join us
20:18next Friday for another episode of the Kent Politics Show.
20:20But did you know that on election night itself next Thursday,
20:24we're doing an all-night special live here on KMTV.
20:27Bringing you every Kent result as they happen.
20:36On Thursday, the 4th of July, six weeks of hard campaigning for this year's general election
20:42will be over.
20:43You will have cast your vote on who you want to run our country.
20:48KMTV's exclusive 12-hour live election programme
20:53will bring you all the action from across every Kent count.
20:57The constituencies that really matter to you.
21:00The Kent Politics Show Election 2024 special live and exclusive on KMTV and Kent Online.
21:07Make sure you're there when Kent decides.
21:15Well, apologies for some of those technical issues there.
21:19But it is very exciting.
21:20There's lots of election coverage next Thursday.
21:25We're going to go back to the chat again.
21:26Now we've fixed those technical issues.
21:29Because obviously, dispersal here around the housing in the major area seems to be a key issue.
21:35I was wondering, do you agree with Claudine?
21:37Do you think the dispersal is good enough in regards to the housing in the local plan?
21:42First of all, the argument that concentration gets you infrastructure clearly has not worked.
21:47We haven't got the infrastructure coming through as a result of that.
21:51And to an extent, it's academic anyway with the community infrastructure level
21:56where every house contributes to a strategic fund.
21:59So actually, it's a bit academic in that sense as to whether it's dispersed or not.
22:05It only really works with Section 106 planning contributions,
22:08which is a decreasing share of what happens.
22:13What I would say is, however we do this,
22:16we have to do it in a democratic and transparent manner.
22:20And I'm not... Claudine had nothing to do with this.
22:23But the way the current local plan was prepared
22:27was not a model of good government or transparency.
22:32And I would finally say, we will review the local plan in a transparent and democratic way.
22:38But a review of the local plan doesn't mean you don't have one whilst you're doing a review.
22:42I do agree, you have to have a local plan.
22:45And at no point are we proposing not to have one.
22:49Well, obviously, the council at the moment is led by the Liberal Democrats
22:52and the Green Independent Coalition.
22:55And obviously, you're not the biggest fan of the plan.
22:57Neither is the leader, Stuart Jeffrey.
23:00Which leads to the question, is the Rainbow Coalition
23:03the right group of councillors, the right administration to actually deliver the plan?
23:07Surely, the Conservative administration which delivered the plan
23:10would be better suited to making it, putting it into practice.
23:15Planning is a technical issue.
23:16It shouldn't be a partisan political issue.
23:19Provided the people carrying it out have got the skills,
23:23then it shouldn't actually be a partisan matter.
23:26What concerned me about the last process was it became one.
23:31I have got 30 years of experience in planning.
23:34Councillor Harwood, my close colleague, has about the same.
23:38I don't think there's any group of councillors,
23:40whatever their party politics on the council now,
23:43are better qualified to lead in this.
23:45But we want the Conservative group and other groups to be involved in that review.
23:50We will not be doing a review that is a Liberal Democrat, Green review
23:54without other councillors, Labour, Conservative and Independent being involved in it.
23:59I probably would just counter that by saying that, obviously,
24:02the local plan process to get to this plan took a lot of years.
24:07There was a lot of evidence, a big...
24:09It's not just something you just do overnight.
24:11You have to build an evidence base.
24:13So it went forward on that basis.
24:15And I think it wasn't...
24:17We were in a minority administration.
24:19The Independents voted for it as well.
24:22And it's in place.
24:23So if they want to dismantle it, that's fine.
24:26It will take a period of time, won't it?
24:28So, like he says, whilst they're doing whatever they do for that period of time,
24:33then they have to figure out how they can also make the plan run.
24:37I would also say, to counter his earlier point,
24:39that the previous local plan never tried the large allocations to get the infrastructure.
24:44These large allocations will come with discrete DPDs,
24:48which are development planning documents,
24:49which mean that they will actually specify the infrastructure that that development wants,
24:53very different to Section 106 or CILF regimes.
24:57Well, I see you nodding there.
24:59So we'll go quickly back to you, Clive, on this one.
25:03All I would say is that the infrastructure money that has been provided so far
25:07is not for a number...
25:09I know it's a very long and complicated story why,
25:12but it is not delivering infrastructure on the ground.
25:14It is not happening.
25:16And that is possibly not entirely down to Maidstone Borough Council,
25:20but that is the situation.
25:22I mean, I completely agree with that,
25:24because Section 106 and CILF at the moment is a retrospective scheme.
25:27If you take money on day one, you want to build something in year 10,
25:30you're never going to have enough money.
25:32That's just logical.
25:33That's why, with some of the larger allocations and the DPDs up front,
25:37you can specify that.
25:38It's a different thing.
25:40Well, with just one week to go to the election,
25:42I've got one last question on that issue.
25:44I don't think we're going to get any much agreement on this local plan topic.
25:48I don't think we'll get much agreement on the election either.
25:50What are your predictions?
25:51Do you think that Maidstone is going to stay in Conservative control?
25:54Do you think Liberal Democrats, Labour,
25:57might build that polling lead-up slightly in the lead-up?
26:01What do you guys think?
26:02To be honest, the result in Maidstone and Moorland is going to be very close.
26:08But I wouldn't want to put money on who's going to win.
26:10This is going to be the closest election result, certainly since 2010,
26:15and maybe even longer than that.
26:18And Claudia, what do you think?
26:19Look, I'm Conservative, we're hard-working, team blue all the way.
26:24Well, on that note, thank you so much for joining me here on the Kent Politics Show.
26:29It's been great to have you both here.
26:30We're sure we'll see you very soon.
26:32Thank you.
26:33Now, as I said before, we'll be going all night on Thursday next week.
26:38And if you have any burning questions for candidates,
26:42use the hashtag KPS and tag us on social media.
26:45See Kent tonight after the break.
26:47Stay around.