Sunderland's latest financial accounts are explained by Sunderland Echo football writers James Copley and Phil Smith after a £9m operating loss.
Category
🥇
SportsTranscript
00:00 reading between the lines. At the moment, the club is not set up to maximise the revenue it can get off the pitch.
00:07 You look at maybe the opportunity Sunderland had last season and the squad they had last season,
00:12 the division, the way it was last season, had they just turned the dials a little bit further around.
00:18 [Music]
00:30 Hello, James and Phil here from the Sunderland Echo. Today we're going to be bringing you
00:35 something a little bit different. We're going to be having a look at Sunderland's most recent set
00:39 of accounts. We know there's a head coach search ongoing, the upcoming transfer window and the
00:46 under-21s are in action in their Premier League Two play-off quarter-final against West Ham.
00:51 We won't be talking through any of that today. That'll come later, hopefully. But Phil,
00:55 we thought we'd drill down into some nice financial things.
00:58 Yeah, well, I think at the moment we're waiting for significant developments, I think would be
01:04 the word to say on the new head coach and the retained list and all those sorts of things.
01:08 So it seemed like a good moment actually to dip into something that I think is always a big
01:13 talking point. And I think it's also a really interesting time to kind of take stock and have
01:18 a look not just at Sunderland's financial position, but also kind of what we've learned about how
01:22 they're operating under this ownership. Because I think after two seasons in the Championship,
01:26 there are so many questions about, questions like ambition, sustainability, how close are
01:31 Sunderland to getting to the Premier League? Can they get to the Premier League under this model?
01:35 So it felt like while we've got a little bit of a breather, while we wait for things to really
01:39 start more up and running in terms of next season, that it might be nice and interesting to sort of
01:44 have a chat about what we've kind of learned. First thing to say, obviously, is this is the
01:48 accountants for Sunderland's first season back in the Championship. So the way the accountant
01:52 reporting works, it's a year behind. So this is for the season that ended with Sunderland's
01:57 defeat of Luton in the play-off semi-final. But it still tells us a hell of a lot, I think,
02:01 about sort of where the club's at and where it's headed.
02:05 Yeah, absolutely. If you want some reading alongside this podcast or after this podcast,
02:10 Phil covered Sunderland's accounts for last season. As he's just mentioned, that's the
02:14 period that comes out every year. So it's a year behind. That's over on the Sunderland Echo website
02:19 as well. I think Phil would both point towards Chris Weatherspoon, who has a probably far deeper
02:23 understanding of finances in general that we could both ever hope to, is good reading as well.
02:28 He also presents it really well on Twitter and it's really easy to sort of digest, isn't it?
02:34 Yeah, absolutely essential reading. Definitely go and find Chris on Twitter. He'll kind of have
02:39 all the information you need in a really sort of, like I say, easy to understand,
02:43 easily digestible way. And kind of what we'll be doing is sort of picking on some of the threads
02:48 of that really and trying to place it in a bit of context about where the club's at.
02:52 Indeed. So just looking at the accounts, when you sort of read them, you go through them,
02:58 the headline that sort of jumps out straight away is that Sunderland made £9 million in losses.
03:04 That was up from their last season in League One, as you'd expect. Now on the face of it, Phil,
03:09 you read that and you think, oh my God, £9 million, that's a lot of money. In terms of
03:14 the Championship though, it's not actually that uncommon. And I think Sunderland rank in the
03:18 bottom five actually for losses. Just explain that sort of picture, because it's sort of a
03:23 wider trend, isn't it, in terms of the Championship being a bit of a money pit really.
03:28 It is a money pit. There's no other word for it. I think kind of the story of these accounts really
03:34 is that Sunderland's revenues from going from League One to a Championship club meant that
03:40 they benefited from a bit of extra TV money, a bit of extra ticket revenue, these kinds of things.
03:45 But that was significantly outstripped by the extra money they had to spend essentially on wages,
03:51 not just players, general staff and as well, but obviously predominantly players.
03:55 So that's basically a dilemma that all Championship clubs face. The revenues that
04:01 they draw from the TV deal does not match what they need to spend on wages to compete with the
04:07 teams who are benefiting from the parachute payments. And that is where we've seen so many
04:11 teams in recent years get into huge financial trouble. Reading, Derby are probably the two main
04:17 examples. There are clubs who've spent really heavily and managed to get promoted, which meant
04:22 that those problems never came past Bournemouth for an example of that. But that is obviously a
04:26 huge risk. And so £9 million is a huge loss. Certainly would be a huge loss to me if I lost £9
04:33 million, I suspect to most of our listeners. But the reality is in the Championship context,
04:38 it's a relatively solid set of results. It comfortably puts them in the bottom half.
04:43 It was a long, long way off being one of the biggest losses in the division.
04:48 And so in a strange sort of way, you know, some of the relatively stable financially,
04:53 I would suggest for the level. But I think it does just go to show it's the important context
04:57 in terms of when we judge words like ambition, and we should always expect something to be very,
05:02 very ambitious at this level. I'm not suggesting that for a second, we should expect the club of
05:06 something size to be pushing towards the top end of the division. But the reality is that ambition
05:12 at this level means writing off a huge amount of funds in the hope that it will enable you to get
05:18 to the Premier League. But obviously, there's no guarantees. And if you don't do that, you can
05:22 begin to see why the levels of money that you're losing can cause you a world of pain. So I guess
05:26 what this shows us is just what a difficult dilemma Championship clubs have. How far do you
05:30 push it in order to try and get to the Premier League? How far do you push that risk?
05:35 I feel very split Phil on that issue that you've just mentioned. You know, a lot of fans would say
05:42 that you need to speculate to accumulate. A lot of fans are quite happy for Sutton to sort of be
05:47 run within the means. The caveat to that is it would be great if Sutton could capitalise a bit
05:51 more on their commercial revenue. And we'll come to that in a second. But Ipswich have shown maybe
05:56 that you do have to spend a little bit of money to get out of the division. They've done, you know,
06:00 marvellously well. On the flip side of that, look at Hull City who've missed out on the play-offs.
06:04 And now all of a sudden, their owners making a few rash decisions and a little bit of concern.
06:09 So it is such a fine tightrope. And we've seen really when a club like Sunderland gets into a
06:16 lot of debt in terms of the Ellis Short days. Yes, he wrote that debt off, but it also came with a
06:20 cost further down the line in terms of Sunderland's parachute payments being promised to Madrox. So
06:25 I can sort of see both sides of the argument. What do you think this tells us about
06:30 Kirilu Idre for Swansea Tories intentions at the club?
06:32 Well, I think that what we expected in the first season back in the Championship was when you put
06:39 their sort of results into context of the Championship clubs, they weren't anywhere near
06:44 one of the top spenders in the division, as you would expect, because obviously you have
06:49 three teams who've just been relegated. So have parachute payments coming into the club. You also
06:54 have another three or four who are still in receipt of parachute payments. So it may not be at the
06:58 same level as those three relegated clubs, but they still have that advantage. We did see probably
07:03 that some of them were a little bit more ambitious than we might initially have thought in their
07:06 first season back in the Championship. So their wage bill actually grew fairly significantly.
07:12 I suspect that's a combination of factors. One is obviously staffing levels going up a level means
07:16 you know you increase your staffing. One is players they obviously brought into the club,
07:20 lifted the wage bill. But I suspect what we also saw was a lot of players already in the squad saw
07:24 their wages increase, whether that was being handed new deals because of their progress,
07:28 or whether it was pre-existing clauses in their current deals that were automatically triggered
07:32 by promotion. So what we should say is that Sunderland's wage bill very much placed them
07:36 within the mid-table category in terms of they were right in there with the teams who were
07:41 spending at a level where they weren't competing with teams at the top, but you would look at it
07:45 and think well they would expect a mid-table finish and hopefully push towards the top end
07:49 of the table if they can. We know that after the season, Christian Spiegel confirmed that internally
07:55 the target being a top-half finish. And while it undoubtedly significantly overachieved,
08:01 I think that this probably did show that there was a relative level of ambition. I'm not saying
08:06 you know they were spending as Ipswich did over the last 30 months to go straight back up, but
08:10 there was a relative level ambition. What's going to be really interesting is when we throw this
08:14 forward to next year and we see the accounts for this season is will the wage bill have grown?
08:20 Because I think a lot of fans would turn around and say well do you know what I actually think
08:24 pound for pound that team that played Luton was a stronger team than the one that finished this
08:29 season. And what I suspect next season. Also got rid of a lot of the older players who might have
08:34 been on a bit more money as well. Exactly, so it'll be really interesting to see how much that
08:38 wage bill has grown. If it has I think there'll be a very interesting debate about whether someone
08:43 has kind of got value for money in terms of as you say moving on those experienced players who
08:46 are performing pretty well. And what I expect it will show is that someone significantly
08:51 underachieved this season and finishing 16th. So the accounts certainly tell us what we thought
08:58 was that Sunderland are not sort of an Ipswich or a Hull who I know Ipswich haven't spent a lot
09:04 in the way of fees this season, but in terms of wages and also the fees and wages that they spent
09:09 to get out of League One meant that they were spending pretty heavily all round. So Sunderland
09:13 are definitely not one of the biggest spenders in this division that's true, but we shouldn't
09:19 probably fall into the trap of thinking they're one of the very smallest spenders in this division
09:23 because that's absolutely not the case either. And that's kind of what these set of accounts
09:29 have kind of underlined for us. Where the question is, is exactly what you say is in terms of can the
09:35 money that's starting to come in from player sales, and we'll move this forward a little bit
09:41 because I think it's really relevant to this point, which is that these accounts don't cover
09:47 the deadline day business. So the sales of Ross Stewart and Lyndon Gouge aren't included
09:54 in these accounts. Now that obviously will make a significant difference to Sunderland's financial
09:59 position. Also not included are the acquisitions of Reeson Pembele and Adil Al-Shish on deadline
10:07 day as well. So that'll obviously upset the Stewart money a little bit, but broadly speaking,
10:10 you would expect to see that Stewart money make a significant difference to Sunderland's accounts
10:14 the next time they're released. And the really interesting question is, it's kind of clear that
10:19 Sunderland are going to have to, as you say, speculate to accumulate, especially in positions
10:24 like Stryker, where we found they found it very, very difficult to find those sort of gems, if you
10:30 like, that they got Ross Stewart. That increasingly feels like a bit of a one-off. And it feels as if
10:34 they are going to have to... It increasingly feels like it is going to cost a bit of a premium really
10:40 to get that quality in those positions. And the big question I think moving forward is,
10:44 is the money that starts to come in from the sale of Stewart, maybe it'll be a Jack Clark this summer,
10:49 who knows, maybe it'll be a different player. Will that allow them to sort of close the gap?
10:53 And at the moment, I think that's where the big question mark lies going into this summer window.
10:59 I think it's definitely an avenue that needs exploring, but why is it then taking them so long?
11:02 But then when you said the priority of getting out of league, well, it sort of made me think of
11:07 Birmingham City in a way, and their American owners have come in and they've decided to change
11:12 a lot and promise a lot as well. And ultimately, they've ended up actually going backwards on the
11:17 field as well. And it sort of feels like that was the main priority of Sutherland's ownership when
11:22 they came in. You could argue that they've gone significantly backwards on the field in the past
11:27 12 months, but it seems like that's always been their primary focus, Phil, and whether you agree
11:32 on the timescale or not, now they're getting around to some of the aspects of the club that
11:36 have been a little bit neglected over the years. The major issue this season, as we've seen,
11:40 has not just been investment, it's been that the decision-making hasn't been as good.
11:44 That's really what these accounts show. We know that there's going to be a huge investment in
11:48 the stadium and the line, and that's going to have a significant impact on the club financially,
11:52 because of the scale of works that is actually required to refresh the stadium and line and
11:57 bring it back up to where it needs to be. And we knew this already, Phil, but it does really
12:04 underline that this way of doing things, this model, is based around ultimately player sales.
12:11 And I don't mean player fire sales, I mean probably selling one player a summer for big money and
12:17 reinvesting that. Yeah, well, I think one of the really interesting things about these accounts is
12:23 there's two sides to it. One, I think it does underline that if there isn't going to be
12:27 persistently significant cash injections in the ownership, and they are putting cash in the club,
12:33 these accounts again show they are putting money into clubhouse losses, but it's not just the level
12:37 of some of their owners in the division. That is just a fact. And so it underlines the importance
12:43 in that context of, for example, a Ross Stewart sale, which we expected eventually to earn something
12:49 between 8 and 12 million, depending on certain add-ons and what have you, in terms of closing
12:54 that gap. The other thing that's really interesting from these accounts is they make a huge point.
12:59 These accounts come with some notes from the board, if you like, which I would recommend any
13:03 fan to go and read. Last year, when the accounts were released, they basically revealed their plan
13:10 to get to the Premier League and what is now another two seasons. And this one, they make a
13:15 big point in saying how they really want to target increased commercial revenues. So they clearly feel,
13:21 reading between the lines, that at the moment, the club is not set up to maximize the revenue
13:28 it can get off the pitch. I don't think that's any surprise to any Sunderland fan who has gone to
13:33 buy someone a shirt for Christmas or a birthday or got some merch for a loved one and has found
13:38 that experience quite frustrating. So I think these accounts underline that they see that
13:44 as an avenue where, obviously, it's not going to make up the level of losses we're talking about,
13:49 but it's something that is really important to the business plan moving forward. And we've already
13:54 seen, obviously, the Hummel deal, the Fanatics deal, to see Fanatics take over the retail side
13:59 of the operation. This is obviously a really key part. Trying to tap into that almost,
14:04 trying to think of a better phrase for it, almost like US brand marketing,
14:09 is something that they see as a really important part of how they're going to try and push the
14:16 club a little bit closer to sustainability in the next few years. Obviously, David Breese was
14:20 confirmed as the new chief business officer, I think was the title he was given. And it seems
14:24 fairly clear to me that this is going to be a massive part of his remake, given his experience
14:29 with the MLS and in American sport. It seems like something to me that I get the impression Kirill
14:35 really wants to push because he feels that's something where the club's kind of being left
14:40 behind a little bit at the moment. And we knew that, we talked about it a lot. When the new
14:44 regime, when the new ownership came in, the focus was we have to get out of Ligue 1. So the investment
14:50 was primarily put into the playing side, not just in the players, in all the stuff that goes around
14:56 the players, the analysis, the data, the scouting, the recruitment team that was rebuilt. It has been
15:01 a significantly longer process to start rebuilding the off pitch stuff. And I think everyone who
15:07 follows something or supports something has come across that at some stage, they've seen that
15:12 rebuilding, if you like, whether it's through ticketing frustrations, whether it's through
15:16 shop frustrations, whatever it is. So it's interesting to me that they're almost setting
15:20 a stall out here to say that this is something that we're going to really step up over the next
15:25 couple of years. And it's going to be interesting to see how much, sort of how good they make on
15:29 that pledge and just how much we actually see that investment and whether we see a significant
15:34 impact on that going forward. - It's funny, isn't it? Just to go off on a little bit of a tangent,
15:39 but so while I was listening to you speak there, I was sort of thinking, you know, it's great that
15:45 this fanatics thing is coming now, this Humboldt deal, all of this sort of stuff. And I hope that
15:49 boosts the commercial revenue. And I think it's definitely an avenue that needs exploring, but why
15:52 is it then taking them so long? But then when you said the priority of getting out of league, well,
15:56 it sort of made me think of Birmingham City in a way, and their American owners have come in and
16:01 they've decided to change a lot and promise a lot as well. And ultimately, they've ended up actually
16:07 going backwards on the field as well. And it sort of feels like that was the main priority of
16:12 Sunderland's ownership when they came in. You could argue that they've gone significantly backwards on
16:16 the field in the past 12 months, but it seems like that's always been their primary focus, Phil, and
16:22 whether you agree on the timescale or not, now they're getting around to some of the aspects of
16:26 the club that have been a little bit neglected over the years. - Yeah. And obviously one of the
16:31 significant things that has happened since the period which these accounts cover is obviously,
16:36 we know that there's going to be a huge investment in the stadium of life.
16:39 And that's going to have a significant impact on the club financially because of the scale of works
16:44 that is actually required to refresh the stadium of life and bring it back up to where it needs to
16:49 be. So that's going to be a significant, I don't want to use the word drain, because that's probably
16:54 a little bit dramatic, but that's going to have a significant impact on the sort of accounts that
16:57 we see in a year or two years time. So I think you're absolutely right. And it also raises another
17:03 interesting question, I think, as well, as we talk about those commercial revenues and all these
17:07 kinds of things. Well, that obviously depends on an element of feel-good factor. - Oh, absolutely.
17:12 - If you want your fans to be hyper-engaged and spending their money, which they are very happy
17:20 to do when they feel enthusiastic, when the product's good. And when I say when the product's
17:24 good, I don't just mean the little product, as in the retail and all those kinds of things,
17:28 of course that's very important, but they need to feel engaged with what's happening on the pitch.
17:32 And that's where there's this really interesting balance, which is what we keep going back to,
17:36 where is the financial balance between investing to put a team that can compete at the top end of
17:42 the pitch, playing a really aggressive, good-to-watch style of football, that will ensure that your
17:48 ticketing levels remain where they are, which remain absurdly high, really, given the relative
17:53 lack of success over the last decade. And it also makes people feel engaged in a way that they then
17:58 want to go and spend their money and invest in the club, if you like. So again, that's a really
18:03 interesting question for me in terms of, I think we know that some of them want to do things
18:08 sustainably, they're not going to invest rashly, they're not going to invest in a huge way,
18:12 but it's at what point do you then begin to threaten what you really need, which is that
18:18 kind of unity, if you like, or that buy-in is maybe a better word for it. And I suspect this
18:23 season, or over the last 18 months, maybe that balance hasn't quite been there, I think,
18:28 it's probably fair to say. And that represents a really interesting sort of challenge going forward.
18:35 Yeah, it's ironic, isn't it really, Phil, that you talk about the enthusiasm and relying on that for
18:42 commercial success. It's a year ago today since Sunderland beat Newton Town in the play-off,
18:47 first leg semi-final at the Stadium Flight, Ahmad with that lovely goal coming back from
18:51 a goal behind, and the enthusiasm around the club at that point, whereas the commercial
18:56 offering wasn't too good and these changes have come, maybe it's a little bit too late in
19:00 Sunderland fans' eyes. I'm sure they'll see the benefits eventually. I guess, Phil, as well,
19:06 and we are going off-piste a little bit here, we'll come back to the accounts in a second, but
19:09 I guess a lot of Sunderland fans would argue that incremental investment is good,
19:14 running, you're sort of walking before you can run and all that sort of stuff. But you look at
19:18 maybe the opportunity Sunderland had last season and the squad they had last season,
19:22 the division the way it was last season, had they just turned the dials a little bit further around
19:27 in January perhaps, or maybe even the previous summer, then Sunderland could have had a real
19:33 chance this season. It's what ifs and maybes, isn't it? But I guess that, as you say, is the
19:39 balancing act that Sunderland are striving to find. Yeah, it's a funny one, that, isn't it? I
19:44 mean, I think the business in last summer window, not the summer before last, when they came out,
19:50 I think it was a pretty solid window, wasn't it, in terms of adding Ahmad, although he came in and
19:56 sort of took them a while to get going, adding Ellis Sims, up front with Ross Stewart. Pretty
20:00 unlucky, to be honest, not to get Nathan Broadhead. I know there's always a lot of discussion about
20:04 Nathan Broadhead. I think people forget that they did actually agree a deal to sign him permanently.
20:09 Broadhead decided not to take it at that time. By the time January then rolled around, it was a very,
20:14 very different deal because Ipswich had entered the equation. We all have a sense, I think,
20:18 of how aggressively they were spending at that time. So I think that's an important caveat.
20:22 The January one is definitely a different one. Gelfard was a significant signing. We shouldn't
20:28 forget that. He was one of the more expensive loans coming down from the Premier League at that
20:32 time. The idea was for him to play with Stewart, which obviously would have been a very different
20:37 proposition. But you're absolutely right in what you say. It's going to be a debate, I think,
20:41 to have next January. It's going to keep coming round. What is the balance between pushing it
20:48 that little bit further? Listen, if Sunderland had pushed the ball out, maybe it would have always
20:53 gone to Ipswich. So maybe it's a little bit moot. But let's say theoretically, if Sunderland had
20:57 gone to the level they had to at Land, Keith Moore and January, maybe they would have snuck in the
21:01 playoffs. And then who knows? The flip side of that is maybe they wouldn't. And maybe then they
21:06 would have finished 10th and they would have eaten up a huge amount of their budget on a strike that
21:11 was then going back to his parent club. So there's no really easy answer, is there? I think that's
21:17 the top and bottom of it. There's two aspects to it, really. One is that it feels as if there needs
21:25 to probably be a slight shift in certain areas of the pitch where I think they are going to have to
21:29 invest. I think that's obvious. The other thing is a major issue this season, as we've seen,
21:34 has not just been investment. It's been that the decision-making hasn't been as good.
21:38 That's really what these accounts show. Because although Sunderland did spend relatively well
21:43 at this level, they overachieved because they made good recruitment decisions. They picked up Ahmad,
21:48 who other teams weren't particularly interested in because they hadn't worked at ranges, but they
21:52 were able to spot the talent and put them with a head coach who gave them loads of confidence.
21:56 They made good decisions. Tony Mowbray was an outstanding appointment. And I think if
22:01 you were to hold our hands up and say we weren't that really that bust at the time, I've got to say
22:05 they left a perfect manager for the squad in this situation. Do you know what I mean? So they were
22:09 able to bridge some of that gap through shrewd decision-making. This season was the opposite,
22:14 where actually, I would imagine, we'll see when the accounts come out next year, but I would imagine
22:19 they were again spending at a mid-table level, possibly up a mid-table, but they made bad
22:24 decisions that then meant they underachieved. Obviously, the way a decision to sack Tony
22:29 Mowbray when they did and then bring in Michael Beale. So while definitely, I think everything
22:36 we've seen shows the need for ongoing investment, what we should also say is these accounts show us
22:41 the value of good decision-making. And that more than anything has been the problem this season,
22:45 that decision-making has not been at the level that we'd seen it at in the previous 18 months.
22:50 Dare I say this is a little bit of a lull, a little bit of a calm before
22:54 the inevitable incoming storm, which is about to hit us at some point.
23:00 From next season, and people have started to read about this, is there's going to be a new TV deal.
23:04 The short-term impact of this is lots more games on TV, lots more rescheduling, but hopefully with
23:11 more advanced notice. But I do think that's going to be worth, judging by the initial estimates,
23:16 I think that's probably going to be worth a couple of million quid every season to
23:21 championship clubs. What's going to be interesting is, do the clubs use that
23:25 to help cut the losses they're making, or is it just going to inflate wages more?
23:30 [Music]
23:32 [Music]
23:34 [Music]
23:36 [Music]
23:38 [Music]
23:46 [MUSIC]
23:56 (upbeat music)