Kick and Chase returns to discuss which England, Welsh, Irish and Scotland players will be in contention to play for the British Lions.
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00:00Hello and welcome to National World's Kick and Chase Rugby Union podcast. I'm your host
00:11Martin Simpson, joined once again by Phil Bramley and James Copley. We're going to be
00:15looking back at the Autumn Nations Test Series from England, Wales and Scotland. And we're
00:21going to be doing an early preview of the 2025 British and Irish Lions Tour to Australia,
00:27some of the tough selection choices that faces Andy Farrell. So let's start off, I think,
00:31with Wales. James, obviously, once again, our resident Welsh expert from the northeast of
00:37England. Deep, deep ties, deep ties in Wales. It was not the best Autumn Nations Test Series
00:48for Warren Gatland. No, he came out of it looking pretty poor. I think that's the big
00:53question, isn't it? Has the Warren Gatland magic failed? It obviously did Wales so well for so
00:59long, they say never go back. But that is now 12 consecutive Test matches lost for Wales,
01:04which is the worst in the team's entire 143-year history. Obviously, they lost all six Nations
01:11matches as well, including against Italy, who, of course, are much improved. Wales haven't lost
01:18all three games in their entire, sorry, all of their games in their entire from 1937. And then
01:23there were only three games. So this is literally the worst period of Welsh rugby that anybody can
01:28remember. There are so many questions that go beyond Warren Gatland in terms of the chief
01:33executive of Abbey Teeny, Nigel Walker as well, the director of rugby. I suspect one of the three
01:39will go at some point soon. I think it feels a bit feral. It feels like there's a little bit
01:44of infighting. There's going to be another review. And I think people in Wales are getting
01:50sick of reviews. And just on a wider point, the chief executive came out and said that she's not
01:56a rugby expert, but she'll conduct a review and take into advice sources from all over Wales and
02:02each aspect of the Welsh game. But I don't think anybody in Wales really knows what to do.
02:08I've seen some people comment that the last thing she should be doing is taking advice from people
02:13within Welsh rugby. And I think just on a wider, broader point, I think Wales and the rugby union
02:20in Wales have been eroding the culture of rugby in Wales for so long. It seems to survive every
02:26time they have to survive or have to make a decision. They have to cut off some part of
02:31Welsh rugby. A region has to go. We move it into a regional format. Now they're talking about three
02:36regions. And there's so many issues with funding. And it just feels like the culture has been
02:42eroded a little bit. And it just goes to show as well that winning games can hide a multitude of
02:47sins. And for a long time, Wales did very well. But the underbelly you always suspected was a
02:51little bit soft, and that's come into fruition. So I think the whole game in Wales needs a bit
02:55of a visionary, which is easily said than done. There's also the questions of money and funding
03:01and whatnot. And hugely concerned, actually, to see the games towards the back end of the
03:06Orkney Nations. And there weren't full houses at the Principality Stadium, which is a huge,
03:09huge concern, because that is the gravy train. Not a lot really to say about the rugby. It was
03:15generally poor. I think Warren Gatland does have to take some responsibility for that. However,
03:20the responsibilities go way beyond him. Does that mean he should still be in a job? I'm not
03:27necessarily sure. I don't think the two things are mutually exclusive. He should probably be
03:30doing better. And so should the game in Wales and decision makers. So yeah, it's a feast or famine
03:37with Wales and rugby in Wales. But at the moment, it feels very feral. It's a massive crisis,
03:44and it feels like it's going to eat itself. So yeah, it's a crazy time down there at the moment.
03:50We talk about cycles in international rugby, Phil, and we've been speaking about this for
03:55Wales for a while now, it feels like, in terms of the sort of golden generation of the
04:022010s, aging out and moving on. And obviously, it feels like that's basically done now. I mean,
04:08there's a couple of guys, Gareth Anscombe was always around about the squad during that point.
04:14And then I believe the likes of Adam Beard and Thomas Williams were sort of coming in towards
04:21the end of that. But obviously, we're seeing the sort of last of the guys kind of phasing out of
04:28the Welsh squad now, guys like Talupe Faletau and Liam Williams. But Wales just aren't really
04:36kicking on. And you look at like what Gregor Townsend said for Scotland after Australia about
04:40how it was, I think it was even certainly under him, it was the most caps he'd ever had in a
04:46single starting 15. And he thinks it might have even been a Scottish rugby records. And there's
04:53a good blend of youth and experience. Whereas Wales are sort of at the opposite end of that,
05:00they're trying to get this settled squad in place. But it's really difficult when you just
05:07keep losing test matches. Yeah, I think it's been an issue for a number of unions, this idea of
05:12succession planning is something that was leveled at the Irish that they hung on to Sexton for so
05:16long. But when he finally does hang up his boots at the age of 55, they haven't got anybody else
05:21to come in. And now Ireland are now kind of having this argument about is it Prendergast,
05:24is it Frawley, who is going to be the heir apparent? And I think Wales were a little bit
05:30victim of their own success. They had that golden generation and they held on to them for so long.
05:34There were so many players that were undroppable that it meant it was really hard to blood them
05:38coming through. And now they have all gone. Unfortunately, Wales are starting from basically
05:43ground zero and having to build up. And I do think there are some green shoots, there are some
05:48players that you can build a team around, but it is going to take them some time. I do wonder
05:54whether they need to look beyond the principality and look overseas and maybe look at that kind of
05:59eligibility criteria, which is obviously Scotland have done a really good job at identifying players.
06:04And to be fair, Ireland have done this as well, the likes of CJ Standa, identifying players that
06:08they want and then almost bringing them in for that eligibility criteria. The problem that Wales
06:12have at the moment is that, as we've said, the Wales union itself and the domestic game is in
06:17such trouble, it's hard to lure anybody of any talent to play in Wales because they're going to
06:23get hooked in the URC time after time. And they haven't got the money that the French teams can
06:28pay, those really top players. So it is really difficult. And I do have some sympathy because
06:32I don't really know what the solution is. It's not as if there's a factory that's just churning out
06:39world-class fly-hards like they used to back in the 70s. So tough days for Wales. But as I said,
06:44I do think they have got some bright sparks. I think they have got some players that they can
06:47build a team around going forward. And it will be interesting when we come on to the description
06:51about the Lions, how many Wales players we think will figure in that potential touring party.
06:55That's half the problem, actually, with Welsh rugby at the moment, just quickly, is that
06:59they don't want to allow a mass exodus, which would probably kill the game in Wales by reducing
07:05the 25-cap rule again or scrapping it and get rid of it. But then they can't attract anybody
07:09anyway. So it feels like they're in purgatory and limbo at the moment. It's a very strange situation.
07:14Well, let's talk about the Lions selection because there's a lot of doom and gloom there
07:19from a Welsh perspective in terms of I think people are genuinely saying that Wales could
07:25have no representation in the Lions squad. I don't think that will be the case. I mean,
07:34it's feasible that they won't have any representation in the, certainly in the Test
07:4015 or even the Test 23. But there are, so I've circled five players from Wales, James, that I
07:48think feasibly I could see being picked. I've only got one back, so we'll start with him. I think
07:55Tomas Williams could maybe go as the third string scrum half. I don't really see anyone from
08:03England, any of England's scrum halves necessarily being in the mix. I think we're going to have
08:09Jameson Gibson Park at nine and Ben White as his deputy. But I think Tomas Williams
08:14maybe goes as third string scrum half. Yeah, I had Tomas Williams written down myself alongside
08:19Jameson Gibson Park, Ben White. I think the caveat to this is a lot will depend on the
08:24Six Nations, won't it? I mean, Nick Mitchell's highly rated by England. If he came back in and
08:28played well, England winning a Grand Slam or a championship isn't beyond the realms of possibility,
08:33you would think, with their talent pool. Obviously, there's Jack Van Portfleet as well,
08:37who I really like. So injuries can happen, and you never know, but I think we'd be pushing it
08:43slightly for him to get in. But yeah, I think Tomas Williams is one that would go. Not necessarily to
08:49start, obviously, but I think his performances probably merit that just about. But as I say,
08:56a lot can happen in the Six Nations. Dewey Lake's a player that I like. I think he has a good shot
09:01of going. It is. He's obviously Wales' captain. He is inexperienced, though. He's only got 15
09:06Wales' caps, only 25, I think. Jack Morgan at flanker is a possible shout. Tommy Raphel,
09:14Wales' other flanker, he's 25 or 20 caps. Jack Morgan's 16 Wales' caps. So there's a little bit
09:23of competition in there as well. I've got some others that I can reel off as I'm going through
09:30that. I don't think we'll make it. I think Adam Baird has a Lions' cap, fairly experienced with 58
09:36Wales' caps. A handy player, but with Wales being dominated so often up front, I don't think he
09:43would go. You mentioned full-back, but Liam Williams, he's 33 now. He does have four Lions'
09:47caps under his belt, 91 Test match Wales' caps. But he is getting on. The Six Nations will probably
09:54tell us a lot about him as he didn't play in the Orton, but he faces huge competition. Let's face
09:58it, Black King Hall for Scotland. Hugo Keenan, some decent English options as well. Josh Adams
10:05didn't play in the Orton. He could be an option on the wing if he gets fit and has a good Six
10:09Nations. He does have a Lions 2 under his belt. Other wingers as well, perhaps Rio Diaz. If he
10:16had a good Six Nations, Tom Rogers had a good Orton, but only has a handful of caps. But are
10:21these lads going to get in ahead of Vandermeer, James Lowe for Ireland, Hanson for Ireland,
10:25Darcy Gray for Scotland? I don't think so. You mentioned it a little bit earlier, but Talupa
10:30Faletau has 104 Wales' caps, Test match experience, another number eight. Is he going to make it
10:37again? I think his time has probably passed him by in terms of the Lions. And then really,
10:45I mean, other names you could throw out there. I don't think we're going to see a 10 go from Wales.
10:53I think Marcus Smith is going to be in there, Finn Russell. And then you've got the Irish options
10:57as well, Craig Casey and Jack Crowland. So I can't see Anscombe making it. I can't see Costello
11:02making it, even if they did have good Six Nations, to be honest. Mason Grady at centre was decent in
11:08the Orton before his injury. Cameron Winnett at fullback is decent. Nick Tomkins at centre is a
11:14good player. If they all had Six Nations stormers, there were injuries and helped Wales win a
11:21championship or a Grand Slam. Maybe they could force the way in. But in terms of championship
11:26or Grand Slam aspects, I don't think there's much chance of that happening. So yeah, I'm clutching,
11:32I'm reaching at straws. But I do think there's only probably, I think Dewey Legg will go,
11:39I think Jack Morgan will go, Thomas Williams. And I think that could be a lot. I really,
11:46really do think that could be a lot. We're going to take a short break, but we'll be right back.
11:51Welcome back. So that was Wales. Let's move on to Scotland next. Obviously, I'm here to represent
12:12Scotland with my somewhat sometimes harsh views, but let's move. So I've taken a note of,
12:21I've probably been a bit harsh on Scotland here, because I think I've got 11 players that I think
12:26I could conceivably be. I mean, a lot of these guys will definitely go. I've got 11 players,
12:31I think could conceivably be in the mix. So let me just go through some of them.
12:37And Pierre Schumann, someone I think has a good shot of getting a loose head. And then I debated
12:45so much over the back row. Because I think similarly to what we were speaking about with
12:50Wales with guys like Jack Morgan, or Jack Morgan, I think will go but to a lesser extent, and
12:56probably guys like say, Aaron Wainwright and James Botham. And it's just so competitive. And there's
13:04so many guys that feel very much at the same level. But Rory Darge is a player that I think
13:11is really, he's still quite young. So I think it would be good to get him on tour because I think,
13:18come the next Lions tour, he could probably quite easily be the Lions starting open side.
13:26It wouldn't surprise me. And I actually think he's good enough to be an even be in contention for
13:29that right now. Also, he's got a bit of versatility can play at six, but a lot of back rowers can play
13:37six, seven and eight these days. So I don't think I think there's gonna there's a lot of guys much
13:42like Matt Fagerson's a player who's, I think in with some degree of a show. And if he has a good
13:48six nations, I wouldn't be surprised to see him go. But right now equally, I wouldn't be surprised
13:53to see him left at home. And then in the box, the only player I'm iffy at the moment is Darcy Graham,
14:06because I think if we're gonna take four wingers, it's going to be low Hanson van der Merwe and
14:14one of Graham or Faye Woboso. And I think that that's going to come down to the six nations.
14:20But again, just given Faye Woboso's youth and his promise, and given that this fourth winger probably
14:28isn't going to be featuring in the test matches. My gut is that Faye Woboso gets in ahead of Darcy
14:35Graham as good as Darcy Graham has been. And I would be gutted to see him left out. Where do you
14:40stand on that one, Phil? I think it's interesting the way that the the change in the laws of the
14:46escorting has changed the role of the wingers now. And actually, if you look at the way the
14:51games are being played, you do want those chasers and you do probably want those guys that are a
14:54bit more physical, which probably lends itself more to certainly to Faye Woboso. That is his
14:59X factor. It's kind of going up and chasing them and bringing those balls back. And probably
15:03that's maybe not Darcy Graham's strong point. You could argue it might not even be Duane's,
15:07because obviously he's more just kind of give me the ball and let me run through people. So
15:11yeah, I'd be interested to see how Farrell plays that and how it pans out. I think if you're going
15:16to play that sort of game and seeing the way the game's moving, Faye Woboso probably is one of,
15:20yeah, I would start Faye Woboso and Lerwood would be my starting choices right now. But we'll see
15:25how things play out in the Six Nations. Yeah, no, Doohan van der Merwe starts ahead of Faye Woboso,
15:31Phil. Come on now. I appreciate everything you've just said. And look, I've spoken on the show
15:38before. I think Faye Woboso is a terrific player with a bright future, but right now,
15:43unless he scores something like 10 plus tries in the Six Nations, I don't see how he gets in that
15:48side. Not just not just van der Merwe, but also Matt Hanson. I think probably also gets them again,
15:56Hanson for me, gets in ahead of van der Merwe just because of the kind of the aerial,
16:01particularly Australia and looking at how they're going to play. We know what their game plan is
16:04going to be. They're going to go for those kind of those kicks. They're going to look for those
16:09kind of aerial because that's not the Australian game has always been their strength. And now with
16:13Joseph Silesi that they've kind of brought in, you really need those aerial players. So yeah,
16:18that would be interesting. I think Faye Woboso is one of the few backs that England probably
16:23will take with them. I think 10 is really interesting. What's really interesting is that
16:28globally, no nation really seems to have got a nailed down 10 with the exception of Scotland.
16:33Obviously, you know, Finn Russell is first name on the team sheet, but you look elsewhere,
16:36obviously Wales are going through, who's our starting 10? Ireland have kind of chopped and
16:40changed now that they've moved beyond that kind of era where they kind of knew Sexton was the
16:47first name on the team sheet. England's really interesting one. Marcus Smith, I think was
16:52brilliant in the Autumn International Series, but he was brilliant because he kind of had to create
16:57stuff out of nothing because the team just had very little shape. I actually thought that when
17:03Finn Smith came on in the Japan game, England played with a lot more fluidity and a lot more
17:08structure and looked a lot more attacking across the board. That's an easy thing to say because
17:13obviously Japan were tiring. Marcus Smith had kind of run around, but I do wonder what's going to
17:19happen. And obviously the other elephant in the room for Farrell is what does he do with his son?
17:23Does Farrell, you know, come back from the cold? I mean, I must admit I haven't seen him in a long time.
17:29Surely not. Well, hold on now. I know he can play centre as well, but surely
17:35Thierry Pellaudo is nailed on to go and I would argue should even start judged on his
17:41game against Australia. We're meant to be speaking about Scotland here and we've
17:45just ended completely in England now. I apologise. Yeah.
17:52What I will say of Scotland, I think Ashman has a chance. I quite like him. He's a bit of a dynamic
17:58hooker as well. So we'll see where he goes. And yeah, it would be an interesting one.
18:06And I apologise for hijacking your Scotland. Is there anybody else that you haven't mentioned
18:10you think that we should pay due homage to in Scotland? The one thing I will mention,
18:15I think Blair Kinghorn for me is the starting 15. I think Keenan has been brilliant,
18:20but anybody that can play in that Toulouse team, which effectively they've got four
18:23international fullbacks and he plays in that final and effectively wins it for them.
18:29Yeah. Kinghorn for me is starting 15 all day long.
18:33Well, I mean, the only other player that I think I was maybe on the fence about were the
18:40locks were Cummings and Gilchrist. I don't think it's inconceivable that if either of them two have
18:44a really good six nations that they could go. But again, it's just such an open position and
18:51it feels like there's maybe just a bit too much competition and there's going to be at least one
18:55quite open spot in the locks. And it feels like one player needs to put their head above the
19:00parapet for that. And I do think Cummings potentially could be the player that does
19:04that, but we'll have to see. But in terms of the players, I think are obviously bolted on to go.
19:09Xander Fagerson's going and I wouldn't be surprised if he's the start in tight heads,
19:13just given Tide Furlong's injury issues. And then in the backs, I honestly think
19:22I wouldn't, I wouldn't be, I can't see it, but I would be perfectly fine with
19:28Scotland's starting back line nine to 15 being the Lions test starting back line. I think Ben
19:35White goes, I think Finn Russell goes, Tui Pilotto and Hugh Jones go,
19:40Vandermeer and Kinghorn obviously go, and we've spoken about Darcy Graham as well.
19:46I'll throw one last mad suggestion out there. I don't think you'll go, but
19:54if say, for example, touch wood, hope it doesn't happen, that Finn Russell or Blair Kinghorn were
20:02to pick up an injury and miss the six nations, then Tom Jordan is going to get a real chance to
20:07sign. He really impressed me in the autumn nation series for Scotland. So I wouldn't be,
20:14I wouldn't rule him out at this stage, but I'm not banking on him going now, but I think,
20:22yes. So in terms of the back line, I think it's pretty much, other than obviously Faye Wibosa,
20:27who we've spoken about, then there's the Owen Farrell, a few other guys. I think it's going
20:32to be a straight race between Ireland and Scotland players for those starting spots.
20:38For me, I think probably Jameson Gibson Park starts at nine ahead of Ben White, but I think
20:42Ben White's a very able deputy there. Yeah, I think the six nations is going to give Sione Tui
20:51a real shot at displacing Bundy Aki. That's going to, because right now he is the line starting 12,
21:00but Sione is going to be putting pressure on that position. 13, again, I could honestly see
21:06Hugh Jones starting in the test at 13, the way he's been playing. Again, a good six nations,
21:11and I think he nails that on. As I've said, Van der Marwe, for me, has to be one of the starting
21:16wingers, probably ahead of Hanson and Faye Wibosa, with James Low another wing. Blair Kinghorn
21:22starting fullback. Yep, totally agree with that. Now we need to have the discussion.
21:30Does anyone really want to go head to head with me right now and say that Finn Russell doesn't
21:34start at 10 for the Lions? Because I promise you I will get heated up if we have to have this debate.
21:40Finn Russell is the best standoff in world rugby. You do not leave a player of his ability and his
21:48caliber out of your test squad on big match days. And with Johnny Sexton retiring right now,
21:54there isn't another standoff that touches him. For me, I appreciate Marcus Smith's talent,
22:01but as much as I think Ben White is maybe, I don't want to say like a poor man's Jameson
22:08Gibson Park, but a similar player, just slightly down a bit. And you could say similarly for Sioni
22:14Tuipulotu from Bundiaki. I think that's what you look at with Marcus Smith. Marcus Smith is
22:20in the same mold as Finn Russell, but he's a downgrade on Finn Russell. So I don't see why
22:27he would start ahead of him. Does anyone have any objections to that?
22:32I'm a big Marcus Smith fan, but I do agree with you. I think Finn Russell should start,
22:36but I honestly don't think Owen Farrell should be anywhere near it. That's my take on it.
22:43I tend to agree. Just looking at it, I think what's really interesting is you look what
22:49happened last time in an Alliance tour and Russell was almost seen four years ago as still being that
22:56maverick, still being a little bit of a risk. I think what's been really interesting is seeing
23:00him play at Bath and playing with Ben Spencer is much more of a controlling nine. I think he's
23:05shown that he can control the game. He can run those shapes. He can still do those unbelievable
23:11things that I don't think any other 10, perhaps other than Marcus Smith, can do. Literally create
23:16a tryout and nothing. He still has that, but I think he is the complete package. And I agree,
23:20unless something goes catastrophically wrong or, heaven forbid, he picks up an injury,
23:24I can't see anybody else starting at 10 for that first test. So yeah, I think he's the man.
23:30And again, I think he's proved that. The interesting thing with someone like Marcus
23:34Smith, obviously England have been using him at 15. So I think there'll be one or two players
23:39you may well go because they've got a little bit flexibility and cover off the bench. So yeah,
23:44I'm not going to argue with that one. I'm full of paid up memory of the Tartan army there.
23:50We're just going to take another short break now, but we'll be right back.
24:05It's John. Actually, that's an interesting one, James. So Phil's named a boulter there in
24:13Sail Shark's prop. Can I pronounce that right? Sorry, Phil, was it Opoku?
24:17We just call him Asher.
24:19Asher. You know what? I'll stick Tom Jordan as my boulter. Anyone you would pick for that kind
24:28of position? Because there is always one. Mine would be either Tom Rogers or Mason Grady.
24:34Tom Rogers was really, really impressive for Wales. I think he's already got like,
24:40I'd have to look it up, but maybe two, three, four, five caps or something like that. Mason
24:43Grady, I was impressed with at the centre. He got that injury. So yeah, one of those two, but
24:51that's sort of what I alluded to in my section that unless Wales have a really impressive six
24:56nations, I can't see them being anywhere near it, unfortunately for them. Because as I said,
25:00Tom Rogers was one of Wales' brighter sparks, I would say, in the automations.
25:07Phil, Sam Underhill, where would you rate his chances at the moment?
25:12I think he's really good. I think, unfortunately, that back row is just so ferocious. I mean,
25:18again, we haven't touched on Tom Curry, who I think at one point looked like he was going to
25:22play every Lions tour until he was 50. I still don't think he's quite back to how he has been.
25:28I mean, the injury, well, it wasn't actually injury, it's more a sort of wear and tear on
25:33his hip bone that they had to have shaved off. I still don't think he's quite back to his ferocious
25:38best. But I mean, again, that sort of kamikaze twin combination that at one point we have Curry
25:45and Underhill just chopping down things left, right and centre, I certainly think you would
25:48have one of those in your team, certainly possibly in the 23. They do things that nobody else is
25:55daft enough or brave enough to, which is just like, you know, chop people down the ankles time
25:59after time and get back up and do it again. So I would see either of those as good shouts.
26:03And they do offer something a little bit different. They are probably those kind of
26:06out-and-out old-fashioned flankers, rather than now, which seems to be the fashion for the hybrid
26:13lock flanker combination, which I get because, you know, it means you can move people around,
26:16you're a bit more flexible. But I still think that you need that bite, that both those players have
26:22that dog, that aggression, that extra fight on the floor, particularly, you know, depending on
26:29the referees and who you've got and how they referee the breakdown. If you can get over that
26:34ball and slow it down, particularly, again, because we know that's Australia are going to want tempo,
26:38they're going to want quick ball. If you can slow it down, it's going to make a massive difference
26:41helping to keep them out. And on the subject of English boulders as well, I guess Sleitholm would
26:46fall into that category, potentially? Yeah, I mean, again, there are a lot of those Northampton
26:51players. Again, we didn't talk about George Fairbank in the mix. I thought he played really,
26:55really well. And again, he's another one that can offer a bit of 10-15 combination.
26:59And in fact, a lot of those Northampton players can play pretty much all across the back line.
27:04I like Sleitholm. I think he offers something a bit different. But again, as we talked about
27:08before, I think it's going to be down to those slightly taller wingers because of how it's
27:14playing. I thought Tom Roebuck, again, a shameless sale plug once again, took his try really well
27:20when he came on against Japan. It's probably a little bit too early for him, but he's in that
27:23similar sort of mold. And I can certainly see in four years' time, he might be in the mix if he
27:27keeps going. But yes, I suspect that the wingers that we've talked about already, Doohan, Darcy
27:34Graham, James Lowe, Faye Wibosaw, I think they probably have a nod ahead of him. We've touched
27:39on quite a few English players just throughout the course of the show. Obviously, Marcus Smith
27:44we spoke about, Faye Wibosaw we spoke about. There's maybe a few guys worth having a mention.
27:51I just feel like with England, I marked about 18 players in total because I feel like so many guys
27:57are in with a shout, but many of them are competing against each other, especially with
28:01the back row. So I was interested when you said that Jamie George maybe doesn't even get on the
28:06plane. Would there be a potential that he drops out of England's starting 15 come the Six Nations
28:15and that could really open the door for presumably Luke Cowan-Dickey to be in with a shout? Because
28:20again, Hooker for the Lions does feel probably the most open position. Yeah, again, interestingly,
28:26Cowan-Dickey got man of the match at the weekend in the Celtigers game, scored a try, looked really
28:30good. His darts are really good. He's a really strong scrummager, but he's also pretty dynamic
28:37around the park. So yeah, it will be interesting. I think it's interesting looking at England,
28:42obviously Jamie George has been the captain and I think he brings a certain presence with him.
28:48I still personally think that the Cowan-Dickey is probably the better Hooker. And I think Theo
28:53Danstock has dropped a little bit. So he seems to have dropped out of the mix. Although whether
28:58you'd write him off completely, I don't know. But yeah, I mean, I think as far as the Lions
29:02concerned, Sheehan, I think if he gets back to fitness is probably there or thereabouts. So
29:07we'll see. But yeah, I certainly think Cowan-Dickey is on the plane for me. He's a really good,
29:13solid player, but also has a little bit of X factor. And it's just, it's the kind of player
29:18that you want in your squad. I think he's the replacement for Manu in terms of being just
29:23somebody who always plays with a smile on his face and always just seems to be loving life.
29:28And I think that's, that's really important. You know, we've talked about players ability,
29:31but it's also about, you know, having that ability to lift people when you're at way on tour,
29:36to blend teams together quickly and to be a bit of a gel, be a social secretary almost,
29:41that kind of brings people out of their shells and forces people to form a team. I can see him
29:46doing that job really, really well, as well as being top-class Hooker.
29:49Well, let me, before we go, before we move on, I've got one more player I want to speak
29:53about, but before that, there's just, I want to fit in one last Seal Sharks player,
29:59just for a bit of fun, George Ford? No, come on now, you've been, you've been
30:08raving about the 10 position in Finn Russell and you want to bring George Ford?
30:11After Finn Russell and Marcus Smith, I mean, like this player, you're only going to take two 10s.
30:16So if you take a third 10, you may as well take someone hugely experienced to just play in the
30:21midweek games and be a decent leader around the training park and hold the bags.
30:27I think it's really interesting, because obviously in the New Zealand game,
30:30that penalty goes two inches to the left and George Ford is a hero and comes on. Now,
30:36rugby is a game of fine margins. He'd only just come back from quite a lengthy injury. I suspect
30:42he wasn't quite right for that game, but we'll see. And as we have touched on, a huge amount
30:49is going to depend on what happens in the Six Nations. There are players that are on the
30:52periphery that can play themselves, maybe not into a starting position, certainly not a 10.
30:56I still think Finn Russell will start, but I can absolutely see that there's a logic that says
31:02that Ford gets some more games under his belt for sale, performs well in the Six Nations.
31:07The caveat being if he starts, because obviously in the Japan game, he was dropped completely.
31:12And it depends, you know, how Borthwick sees that 10 berth, whether he wants either of the Smiths
31:19and then Ford, or whether Ford drops out of the pecking order completely.
31:22But I still think George Ford is an absolutely class 10. He's on 96 or 98 England caps now.
31:30He's got massive experience. He's great at kind of moving the team around the park,
31:36and again, has that sort of calming presence that you probably need. So
31:40I think he's an interesting shout. As we keep saying,
31:43the Six Nations will make or break a lot of these plane tickets.
31:47Just very briefly, James, but on that, I know you kind of shirked it, that I
31:52balked at that idea, but if it was George Ford versus Owen Farrell, who would you have?
31:57Oh, God. I think George Ford. Yeah, George Ford over Owen Farrell.
32:01Honestly, I'm just thinking now, and I just had a quick check there. George Ford hasn't
32:06been in Alliance squad, which to me just- That sounds bizarre, doesn't it?
32:11It does, doesn't it? You would assume that being so around England so consistently,
32:16but yeah, I guess Owen Farrell just kept him. Owen Farrell has been around the last
32:20three, is that right? But yeah, so one last England player.
32:23Here's a question for your one-word answer just quickly. Who captains the Test match
32:27team for the Lions against Australia? No justification, just a one-name answer.
32:32Finn Russell.
32:34Doris.
32:35I would go with Tua Paloto, I think.
32:38Well, just quickly, Phil, I've got one last England player I really wanted to speak out
32:42before we go, and that's, if you were to say to me one England player that you would
32:47most expect to be a Test starter for the Lions, I think for me it would be Mauro Letoce.
32:52Actually, I'll come to you first on that, James, just because
32:56from a non-England fan point of view, he's a very easy player to dislike,
33:01and when he's having a bad game, it is very enjoyable for the opposition fans.
33:05When he's just conceding penalty after penalty.
33:08But when he's at his best, he is pound for pound one of, if not the best lock in world
33:15rugby, and given how open a position that is for the Lions, he would be the one England
33:21player I would be most confident in saying will be a Test starter next year.
33:27Yeah, I think so. He's a player I really, really like.
33:30He's only 30, it seems like he's been around forever.
33:33He's got eight England caps.
33:35In terms of British and Irish Lions as well, I think he's up to, will it be two tours now?
33:40This could be his third, six Test caps as well for the British and Irish Lions.
33:45So, I think he gets a lot of undue stick at times.
33:47I think actually there's an argument to say that he should have been made England captain
33:52at some point.
33:52I do get what you're saying, you know, when he is turning over the ball, it can be frustrating
33:57when he's off it, it can be frustrating.
33:59Alan, when Jones turned over the ball plenty for Wales and we all still loved him, it's
34:03just that position, that territory.
34:06If you get on the wrong side of the referee, if the rest of your teammates are at it, that
34:09can happen in those positions.
34:11So, I think he's a magnificent player and I think he's one of those where once he's
34:16gone, I think people will realise just how good he is.
34:18Not to say that he hasn't had a lot of praise over the years because he has, but I think
34:22when a player's around that long, you enter phases, don't you?
34:25You enter the taken for granted phase.
34:27I think we had that with Sexton.
34:28We had that with the likes of Alan Wynne-Jones and then you sort of emerge from that and
34:32then you sort of get your flowers, don't you?
34:34And I think Eto'oge should get his flowers at some point soon.
34:37Would you go along with what I was going with there, Phil, that Eto'oge is the most likely
34:43England player to sort of be a test starter?
34:46Yeah, I think he's also come back into some of his best form, actually.
34:51I think he did dip off a little bit for a while, but he certainly seems to be back to
34:56his best and Locke probably is, other than obviously a couple of the Irish lads, probably
35:01a more open position.
35:03I still think personally, if I was picking my starting 15, I would pick Jack Willis in
35:08the back row.
35:09I just think he is phenomenal.
35:11You could argue he's the best back rower in Europe.
35:14So if it was me, I would say he is my option.
35:19But then the back row is so competitive.
35:21There's so many good players and there are so many, as we've touched on, combinations.
35:24Do you want an out and out, six or seven, or do you want a combo, Locke, Flanker?
35:29So yeah, I think Marrow is a good shot.
35:31For me, it'd be certainly between those two.
35:34Well, that's where we've got to end the show, I'm afraid.
35:36But thank you very much, James.
35:38Thank you, Phil.
35:39Thank you very much if you've been watching or listening at home.
35:42And hopefully the three of us will be back in a couple of months' time,
35:46in time for the start of the Six Nations.