Transfer deadline day reaction from the Sunderland Echo's football writers.
The trio also discuss Sunderland thrashing Portsmouth at Fratton Park.
The trio also discuss Sunderland thrashing Portsmouth at Fratton Park.
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00:00Alan Brown is one of the best signings I've made in a long time.
00:04On a three, I just cannot stress how much I love that business.
00:08I just think that is such good, sensible, pragmatic business.
00:11That big statement, big money signing didn't come in.
00:30Hello, welcome to the Raw podcast brought to you by the Sunderland Echo.
00:33My name is Jason Jones.
00:35I'm joined by James Copley and Phil Smith.
00:38Pleasure to see you on a Monday morning, lads.
00:40The perfect start continues for Sunderland.
00:42It's now four wins from four.
00:44They are top of the championship, a 3-1 win over Portsmouth at the weekend.
00:49Phil, I know we've got plenty of transfer business to be unpacking
00:53after that pretty manic deadline day.
00:55But before we get into that, let's just talk about the game at the weekend.
00:58Another good showing from Regis Labrisse, aye?
01:02Yeah, it's like so controlled, so organised, so disciplined.
01:09It's just like, sometimes it's quite hard to believe, isn't it?
01:13You know, in terms of how quickly they've just become this well-rounded,
01:18organised, dangerous side.
01:20It's like, and I think you've got to give a lot of credit to Labrisse.
01:23I mean, to be fair, like one of the things we talked about towards the end of last season
01:26was that defensively, Sunderland were quite good, weren't they?
01:29Their defensive record was never really sort of terrible.
01:31Even when they were playing badly, they just lost all attack and threat.
01:34And Labrisse has managed to sort of keep that good defensive stuff
01:40but maintain that threat.
01:41And I think that, you know, Portsmouth started strongly, as you would expect,
01:46but, you know, tried to play quite long.
01:48But Sunderland's two centre-halves dealt with it really well.
01:50And it was just such a controlled, professional performance.
01:53And you don't want to get carried away.
01:56But four games, they deserved to win every single one of them.
02:00They've barely given up a chance in any of the four games.
02:02Another game where Paterson basically didn't have anything to do.
02:06It's just, it's undramatic in the most enjoyable way possible.
02:11They just feel in total control of the games.
02:13And I don't think you can really praise them enough.
02:15We know that there's going to be challenges ahead, how they're going to react to adversity.
02:19But they just look like a very well-drilled, organised, hungry side.
02:23And I just don't, you can't really praise them enough.
02:27Shall we talk transfer business then?
02:29Shall we talk about deadline day and everything that happened?
02:31Because it ended up being a very busy, very late one from Sunderland as well.
02:35It felt like we waited all day and then a flurry of sign-ins were announced all at once.
02:39I mean, coming to you first, Phil, just a straight up question.
02:43Do you think Sunderland have done enough in this transfer window?
02:46Are you happy with the business that they've been able to conduct?
02:50Yeah, yeah, I think so.
02:53Listen, I think most of the business they've done is really good.
02:56I think that Alan Brown is one of the best sign-ins Sunderland have made in a long time, on a free.
03:04I just cannot stress how much I love that business.
03:07I just think that is such good, sensible, pragmatic business.
03:10And, you know, yes, it's a break from Sunderland's model
03:14and that there's not a huge resale value, etc, etc.
03:17But, A, he improves your team now and he helps the development of Joe, Dan Neil, Chris Rigg,
03:24who are all going to make, potentially, the club fortunes in the future.
03:29So, I just think I like the pragmatism on that.
03:31Metham, I think, is a great solution to a not ideal scenario in terms of violence, injury.
03:37I really like that business.
03:39So, broadly speaking, I am happy with the business.
03:42I think you've got to see, when you discuss the summer window as well,
03:45keeping the vast majority of the squad in place was good business.
03:48I think it's important we don't lose that.
03:50I think there's two things I would say is that
03:54I expected them to do a bit more off the back of losing Clark.
03:57I expected them to make a bit more of a splash.
04:00And I was a little bit disappointed that I thought that was an opportunity
04:03to then go and really get a deal done up front where you sort of go,
04:07OK, we've lost Clark, but there's Mundell there, there's other wingers there,
04:13and you've used it to address the biggest issue in the squad.
04:16So, I thought it was disappointing that that never really happened.
04:19I know that they did try very hard to do that.
04:21I mean, Bamber at Lorient, who LaBreeze obviously knows really well,
04:24there's someone that they did chuck a fair bit of money at,
04:27but just couldn't get it done.
04:28So, I was a little bit underwhelmed by what happened after Clark went.
04:32Doesn't mean it was a terrible window,
04:33but that was a little bit of a disappointment to me.
04:36The other thing is I do think full-backs are a concern for me,
04:39just in that human sake, and a top-end Premier League player,
04:42top-end Championship players who I think will go up to the Premier League.
04:46So, you don't worry about them, but if there's an injury,
04:49there's obviously an issue.
04:51The caveat to that is I've asked LaBreeze about this twice
04:53towards the end of the window, and in both times,
04:55he said he was completely comfortable with it.
04:57I get the impression that what he would do in that scenario
05:00is switch to a back three and play wingers as wing-backs,
05:03basically really attacking wing-backs,
05:05a bit like Alex Neil did at the start of the Championship season,
05:07when I think it was Clark and Gooch maybe were playing as wing-backs.
05:11So, I am concerned about that, but LaBreeze isn't.
05:15So, maybe I should not be as concerned,
05:18but I do think they've taken a little bit of a risk there.
05:20So, I don't know. Does that answer your question, Jason?
05:23Hopefully, it sort of does in a very roundabout way.
05:26I mean, yes, and I think that's how we're all sort of feeling, isn't it?
05:29You know, it's like there are positives,
05:31and then there are concerning parts as well.
05:34I mean, obviously, the striker question was the big one this summer, James.
05:39As Phil mentioned there, Sunderland tried.
05:41There were plenty of names linked, you know.
05:43In the end, the one that managed to get through the door was Ahmed Abdullahi,
05:4620-year-old from Ghent in Belgium.
05:49I mean, you know, a player who hasn't really played much senior football,
05:55who, you know, looks like he has a decent amount of technical ability about him,
06:00looks big and powerful, but ultimately, I mean,
06:05maybe not the striker that many summer fans will have been hoping for.
06:09No, it does present a little bit of a risk as well,
06:11the way, you know, long-term links to Alexandre Mendy and the like.
06:16So, we were expecting perhaps a player with a little bit more experience.
06:20That doesn't mean that you don't go and sign somebody of the profile of Abdullahi
06:25when they come along, if you really like them,
06:27if you think they're going to contribute,
06:28if you think there could be one for the future.
06:30I've absolutely no problem with Sunderland going and signing a player like that at all.
06:35But that does come sort of within the context of Sunderland's long-term striker problems,
06:41which you could say have been there before really Ross Stewart left,
06:45because I remember we were looking at it in that first championship season
06:50when Sims and Stewart were there thinking that, you know,
06:53we could do with a couple behind.
06:55Obviously, Sims went and then Ross Stewart got injured.
06:58Obviously, Joe Gelhardt coming.
07:00It's been a problem position at Sunderland for a long time now.
07:05I do think there are more options there.
07:09With Maénda coming through, it has really helped ease that worry a little bit.
07:13But yeah, I completely agree with Phil.
07:15I would have liked to have seen that experienced striker.
07:18Not saying that Sunderland didn't try,
07:19because they did quite clearly try all-window
07:22and obviously offering big money to the Lorient striker as well, reportedly.
07:27So it's one of those ones where it's still ongoing,
07:30still a little bit frustrating.
07:32But when you've won four games on the trot,
07:35it does become a little bit less of an issue.
07:37It's been a positive window for Sunderland.
07:39I think deadline day was strange in a way,
07:41because, you know, we all looked at it and thought this could be really, really busy.
07:45And it was really, really busy.
07:47We thought it could be quite exciting with a few twists.
07:49But because of the way it mapped out, and this was nobody's fault,
07:53and it's not me having a dig at Sunderland,
07:55but the business was done late.
07:56And then a lot of the announcements sort of came later on,
08:00you know, after 12, heading on to 1, 2 in the morning.
08:02So that excitement starts to die.
08:04People get a little bit concerned that things aren't happening behind the scenes.
08:08If those deals have perhaps been spread out a little bit,
08:11I think the hype starts to build and whatnot.
08:13But I think it was a positive deadline day.
08:15But as Phil mentioned, it just didn't reach that exciting crescendo,
08:19I think primarily because of the way the deal's mapped out,
08:23but also because that big, you know, statement, big money signing didn't come in.
08:27However, I think what you can say is that Sunderland have actually shown a willingness
08:32to spend money this transfer window for me.
08:35They've brought players in on deadline day for fees.
08:39It might not be sort of massive eye-catching fees,
08:41but certainly significant chunks of money.
08:45And I think quite clearly they were willing to spend as the window went on as well.
08:49So I think there's good and bad to it.
08:53And Phil, is there an argument to be made that, you know, in some respects,
08:57it's almost better to walk away from certain deals
09:00because they don't end up being viable financially
09:03or, you know, whatever the club might be looking for,
09:05than to pursue stuff that ultimately might not benefit Sunderland in the long run.
09:09So they might not have got that sort of focal point senior striker that they were looking for,
09:14but maybe that's not the worst thing in the long run
09:16if it means that come the January window,
09:18that they're in a better position to perhaps bring someone in.
09:22Yeah, I think that would certainly be Sunderland's logic.
09:25And I do get it.
09:26I think what you don't want to do is be left in a situation next summer
09:30where you feel like, you know, your budget is really, really tight
09:33because you're saddled to a player who you weren't 100% sure about
09:36and you've ended up spending a lot of money on.
09:39So I definitely think that, you know,
09:41you should always try and spend less money wherever possible,
09:44because in theory, that should free you up for future windows.
09:47I just think that it was a little bit underwhelming for everybody
09:50because I think obviously that's the way you accept losing your best players, right?
09:55And it's something that, you know, clubs,
09:57I know we probably talk about them too much,
09:59but like Brighton and Brentford, it's like they lose a player
10:01and that must be really disappointing for their fans.
10:03And then they go and sign loads of players that you can get really excited about.
10:07And I think that's how you, it almost becomes palatable that way, doesn't it?
10:10So I think we just didn't have that like bang at the end of the window having lost Clarke.
10:15But obviously what you have to do is view the whole summer
10:18rather than just that end point.
10:20And I think that if you had said to supporters that they would add
10:25real championship experience right through the spine of the squad,
10:28that Clarke would go, you know, maybe for a bit less than people would have liked,
10:32but would go for a decent sum.
10:35And that everybody else would stay.
10:37I don't think people would have been dancing about and saying,
10:39that's like my dream summer window.
10:41But I think it's like a solid window.
10:44I think we can say that.
10:45And ultimately, like, yeah, the Striker thing,
10:49I think it is a little bit less of an issue now that Mienda's doing so well.
10:53I think the big, the interesting ones, it's really hard to judge at the moment,
10:56isn't it? Because we know Mienda is going to have a dip at some point.
11:00It just is because we see that with all the young players.
11:02We don't know enough about Isidore yet, do we?
11:04Like he has been signed as a Striker.
11:06Obviously, as long as Mienda plays like this,
11:08he's going to come on off the left rather than playing through the middle.
11:10But we just don't know enough about him yet to be able to fully judge that.
11:13Because ultimately, like he is,
11:16all right, he's not proven in the championship.
11:18He is a senior Striker.
11:20Like he has played a lot of top tier games and he has scored goals.
11:23So he is a senior Striker.
11:25I feel like once we've seen him play 10, 15 games,
11:28we'll be able to make a much better judgment.
11:30Is he in a slightly different category to Mienda and Hamir
11:34when they first joined, when they clearly weren't quite ready?
11:36So I do think that my perception of the window will definitely be shaped on how
11:42Isidore goes, I think, over the next 10 to 15 games.
11:45It's so sudden, isn't it?
11:47Right, lads, what do we need on deadline day?
11:48Probably a Striker, maybe a fullback?
11:52Nah, should we just go and sign the 19-year-old Serbian attacking midfielder?
12:03Sunderland's most expensive signing of the window was Milan Aleksic,
12:08a teenage Serbian midfielder.
12:10I mean, not a lot known about him, if we're being completely honest.
12:14Not also a position that you would have necessarily expected Sunderland
12:18to go out and strengthen in the last stages of the window, James.
12:22Yeah, hugely, hugely pleased I managed to get that one over the line
12:26because he comes with a big pedigree, doesn't he?
12:28He's played for the Serbian national team.
12:32He's being called up again.
12:33So although he's only 19, I think, is he 19? 18?
12:38Oh, no, sorry, he turned 19 on deadline day, didn't he?
12:41So he signed for Sunderland.
12:43So he was 18 when the interest broke, 19 now.
12:45But by all accounts, hugely talented.
12:48Obviously, I don't watch a lot of football where he's come from.
12:51So I've been relying on the YouTube highlights and clips like the rest of people.
12:56And then look at the Twitter for Serbian football experts,
12:59really, who all rate him really highly,
13:01say he's really technical, adds more competition to that midfield.
13:05And Sunderland must really, really rate him highly because they've forked out a large fee.
13:09It was said to be €3.7 million,
13:12which will be probably the biggest fee Sunderland have paid for a player in a long time,
13:18really, possibly since Will Greig and before that have been in the Premier League, I'd imagine.
13:24So it's positive, I think, that that one's over the line.
13:27But we just don't know enough about him yet.
13:29Obviously, we haven't seen him play.
13:32He might have been a contender to get some minutes for the under-21s tonight,
13:35but obviously he's headed away on international duty.
13:38But yeah, with these types of signings, it's exciting, isn't it?
13:42Because of the unknown, but it's really,
13:45really hard to judge him until you've seen him play 10, 15 games.
13:49And the only thing I can add is that from what I've read on social media and reports elsewhere,
13:57he is hugely, hugely rated and seen as a massive talent in Serbia.
14:02It's so Sunderland, innit? Right, lads, what do we need on deadline day?
14:05Probably a striker, maybe a full-back?
14:09Nah, should we just go and sign the 19-year-old Serbian attacking midfielder?
14:13I know we've got like 14 attacking midfielders, but should we just do it anyway?
14:17Nah, like, yeah, it feels very football manager
14:20when you've got a bit of your budget left at the end of the window.
14:23So you're like, right, I'm going to get the filter on,
14:26under-20, five-star potential, get them signed.
14:29I think it's like, the one thing I would say is that it's,
14:33we talk about, and the investment discussion is obviously a big one,
14:36and I understand that totally in the context of there have been times
14:40where you felt that by pushing the ball out a little bit with a striker
14:43on a couple of deadline days and stuff,
14:45you could potentially push yourself to the Premier League.
14:47And I think that's a really valid debate about at what point,
14:51just to say inability become a bit of a sort of straight jacket.
14:54I do get it. But the one thing you would have to say is that
14:57they have always invested in young players when that opportunity has come along.
15:02And I know that this isn't my argument, this would be the club's argument,
15:05but I think it's worth saying that with stuff like Stewart and Clark,
15:08I think they would argue as well as that doing those kind of deals
15:11means you're always in a position where you can invest
15:14when the right opportunity comes along.
15:16Maybe other clubs who are living a bit closer,
15:19sailing a bit closer to the wind with financial fair play rules and stuff,
15:22they don't get to do these deals when they come along
15:24because they don't have that kind of fund, if you like, that they can go and do.
15:28And so I think it does, the way someone do it,
15:30does mean that they can be alive to these kind of opportunities in the transfer market.
15:34And that's obviously a really exciting thing.
15:36But, you know, I could pretend I know loads about Milano-Lexic,
15:40but I definitely don't, so I can't judge that aspect of it.
15:42But I think it was worth discussing that like financial aspect of it
15:45because as James said, it's like it's a really significant deal.
15:50And obviously it also goes back to as well the debate about experience and youth
15:54and that, you know, rightly there's a balance and we talk about having experience,
15:57but these players are coming to Sunderland because they know they're going to play
16:00and that's, you know, a really important factor as well
16:02when we have these debates about like Sunderland strategy.
16:05It was so unknown that I actually had to Google his name
16:10and double, triple, quadruple check when the link broke
16:14because there's a polo player, a water polo player of the same name,
16:17quite prominent water polo player of the same name called Milano-Lexic.
16:21So I actually thought I was being duped in the first instance
16:24and this was sort of one of those social media things
16:27that was designed to catch us out, but it turned out not.
16:30One of the questions that always get asked in the immediate aftermath of the transfer window,
16:34Phil, is the free agent market.
16:36I mean, there are some names kicking about.
16:38Do you expect Sunderland to entertain any of them at all?
16:41I highly doubt it.
16:42I think like if we break it down a bit,
16:44what are the positions where you would say that Sunderland might sort of look to recruit?
16:48They don't need centre arse anymore now that Metham's in.
16:51They don't need centre midfielders.
16:52They certainly don't need wingers because they've got like,
16:55with the academy players as well, they've got hundreds.
16:57So there's only really strikers and fullbacks.
17:00Now, strikers, we talked about that like proven option,
17:04which I get, but they now have four with Eastdoor as well.
17:08So I don't think you're going to add a fifth player who's going to take time to get match fit.
17:11I don't think any of the names out there are quite of the calibre
17:15where there's any point bringing them in.
17:17I think if you only had like two strikers,
17:19then you might bring one in and say, well, if they play here and then it's worth doing.
17:23I just don't think there's players of calibre out there to justify doing it.
17:27You know, you have got Bruce in, Eastdoor, Meander and Abdullahi now.
17:31We know Abdullahi's going to take time to settle,
17:32but he has been signed as a first-team player.
17:34And as I say, the only other one is fullback,
17:36which, you know, in a way I think there is possibly a need for.
17:40But from, you know, the way Labreece has spoken,
17:43I just think if he gets a fullback injury,
17:46he'd either shift 0-9 across to right-back if it's in that scenario,
17:51or maybe yelled at a left-back,
17:52or he'll go to a back three with Ballardo 9 and Mefham
17:56and play wingers and wing-backs.
17:57That just seems to be the way he wants to do it.
17:59So I guess the fullback's the one where you go,
18:02would you look at it and think there's potentially a deal to be done there?
18:05But if you think that at least, I know it's a long injury,
18:07but he will be back after the November international break.
18:10He can obviously play at left-back with no worries.
18:12I just feel like they're going to crack on. Put it this way,
18:16there's been a much stronger case for doing it in previous windows
18:20and they haven't. So I think that tells you everything you need to know,
18:23really. It's something that they don't particularly want to do.
18:26And actually, they have a pretty big squad now.
18:28It's just a bit, some of the, they've got,
18:31obviously there's some positions where they're a little bit overloaded,
18:33but I don't see them adding to it,
18:35especially when you consider that Aushish and Bard didn't get a deadline day move.
18:38There's two players really to bring back into the fold,
18:41another two attacking players. Never say never, to be fair,
18:45like, but I just, I'd be really surprised if they did it.
18:48Shall we wrap things up by talking about a couple of late outgoings as well?
18:52James, when the news broke that Louis Hemiya was going to Juventus,
18:55did you do the same double-take that I did?
18:59Yes, I did. And obviously that was one I'm quite keen to get checked out
19:03just to see if it was true.
19:06I think Juventus were interested in him,
19:08if I remember rightly, before he joined Sunderland from Benfica.
19:12You know, it's, he's had a tough time.
19:14There's no two ways about it since movement of Sunderland to Hemiya.
19:17Obviously, he had a really good pre-season under Tony Mowbray
19:19and he netted a couple of goals.
19:21You know, a lot of Sunderland fans might not agree,
19:24but there's clearly something there.
19:28We saw that with his goal in pre-season,
19:30which was an absolutely phenomenal strike.
19:32We've seen that he's got an eye for goal at times.
19:35I think application will probably be key for Hemiya and his career going forward.
19:40I think he just needs to work a little bit more on his positioning.
19:45I think, obviously, Jason, when we were at the under-21s against Middlesbrough,
19:50you know, Watson and Burnett were getting down to the byline,
19:54Tudorov at times as well and getting the ball in
19:56and Hemiya wasn't yet in the picture.
19:59But then all of a sudden, sometimes Hemiya will drop deep,
20:02control the ball, pass it out wide, turn and look really good.
20:07You know, it hasn't worked for him at first team level.
20:09That game against Southampton last season felt like such a turning point.
20:13Sunderland won 5-0 and Hemiya was through and should have scored and he didn't.
20:18Still very young. Obviously, Juventus have seen something in him.
20:23And to be fair, if the reported financials around that deal are true
20:28in terms of there being an optional multi-million pound buyout clause
20:33with add-ons and sell-on fees as well,
20:37then it could be a really good piece of business for Sunderland.
20:38But I just think it was right for Hemiya.
20:41And Phil, a word on Pierre Ekwer. It felt like a little bit of a shame to see him leave on loan,
20:46but I mean, probably the right move for the player at this time.
20:50Yeah, I think so. I do think it's a real shame that one,
20:55in terms of, you know, I think like obviously last season he didn't,
21:00well, actually he started the season superbly,
21:02but you just felt like he was always chasing his form and fitness after that.
21:06He got a dead leg, didn't he? He produced one of the best individual performances
21:10I've ever seen against Southampton. And then obviously he got that injury
21:13and just felt like he never really recovered from it.
21:15And I was sort of looking at it and saying,
21:18well, yeah, but it's his first full season of senior professional football
21:22and we've seen with other players that they can be this good,
21:24they can be that good. And then after a while, they start to find their level sort of there.
21:29So in some ways, I thought it was a real shame.
21:31It all seemed to have unraveled quicker than it needed to.
21:34The flip side of that argument is that sometimes you have got to be pragmatic,
21:37both in terms of the player and the club.
21:39And I can't sit here and say, oh, well, I would have kept Ekbar
21:43and then said very obviously that Brown, Rigg, Neil,
21:48Job and now probably Sam Adder ahead of him.
21:51And it makes no sense to just keep him and not play him, you know,
21:53and now you have to throw in Oleksij to that mix.
21:55He's obviously now out-sheeshed because he hasn't got a move.
21:59So I think it's the right deal. And I suppose that there's a couple of things to it.
22:03One, I understand there was like a seven-figure loan fee for the season,
22:08which is good business. And I suppose you look at it and go,
22:11if San Etienne decide to make their option to buy him permanent,
22:15then someone bring in probably about six million quid next summer,
22:18which is obviously a very good business for a player they signed for not very much at all.
22:23If they choose not to make that option permanent,
22:25then he comes back to someone and you can have another look at him.
22:28So I think it's like, I think it's a real shame,
22:30but I think it's really hard to criticize the deal at the same time.
22:33I can't sit here and say what a brilliant signing Allan Brown is
22:36and then say he should never have got rid of the sentiment failure he's deplaced.
22:40So I do think that one's a shame because he's such a good character as well.
22:44But I think it's probably a fairly sensible, pragmatic decision in the end.
22:48I think it's quite smart, actually, that seven-figure loan fee that Phil mentioned,
22:52because we all know that West Ham are going to be due a significant portion of the transfer fee
22:58when Ecua eventually moves, whether it be to San Etienne or somewhere else.
23:02They're going to be owed somewhere in the region of like 25% to 35%
23:06according to various different reports.
23:07So that seven-figure loan fee actually goes straight to Sunderland
23:10and West Ham I don't think would touch that.
23:13So it does make a little bit of sense in that regard,
23:15but I really like Pierre Ecua.
23:16I think that's probably all we've got time for this week, lads.
23:20Thank you for joining me.
23:21Thank you for watching along at home, listening along at home.
23:24We'll be back with The Raw next Monday, I'm sure.
23:27And in the meantime, you can keep up to date with all of the latest Sunderland news on the Sunderdago.
23:32See you again next week.