In an exclusive interview with India Today, Jammu and Kashmir Chief Minister Omar Abdullah talked about the Pahalgam terror attack and Operation Sindoor.
Category
🗞
NewsTranscript
00:00And joining me now is a very special guest. I'm joined by Omar Abdullah, Chief Minister of Jammu and Kashmir.
00:05Appreciate your joining us, Mr. Abdullah. It's been a tough fortnight, I'm sure, for you.
00:11And thoughts with the people of Jammu and Kashmir. First we had Pahal Gaam, then we had Operation Sindhu.
00:17We've had cross-border shelling in which civilians have been killed in Poonch and other border villages.
00:22Your thoughts at the very outset of what these last few weeks have been like for the people of your state.
00:30Well, I mean, what do I say? It's been unexpectedly bad.
00:40Obviously, Pahal Gaam came out of the blue. We weren't expecting anything like that, given the last four or five years of relative calm.
00:50Followed by the intense cross-border shelling and bombardment, which brought in areas hitherto completely untouched by this sort of cross-border shelling.
01:07You talked about civilian casualties. We saw civilian casualties in Uri, in Rajori, in Poonch, and areas in these districts that came into the range of shelling, where we haven't seen shelling in the past.
01:25We saw drone activity over Sirinagar and Jammu, something that is completely unheard of.
01:32We haven't seen this sort of activity in Jammu since, I guess, the 71 Indo-Park War.
01:38So, I mean, what does one say about the kind of fortnight that Jammu and Kashmir has had? It's been difficult.
01:47It's been difficult. Let's start with Pahal Gaam, Baisar, and the manner in which that massacre took place,
01:52and the manner in which there was an attempt made by the terrorists to discriminate between Hindus and Muslims.
01:57Did that make it even more difficult in terms of the fact that now Kashmiris found themselves suddenly being in the crosshairs of terrorist violence?
02:10Has this increased, you believe, the anger in Kashmir against those who've used terror to divide people?
02:17Well, there's no doubt that for the first time the people of Jammu and Kashmir, and Kashmir in particular, came out of their own accord.
02:29It was a completely spontaneous, unplanned, unchanneled protest by people against what had happened in Pahal Gaam.
02:40And this happened in Sirinagar. It happened in our other major districts. It happened in rural villages.
02:47Basically, the people of Kashmir came out and said that we don't support this. This is claimed to have been done in our name.
02:54But this is not who we are. This is not what we want. And we will not allow you to use this violence as if this is something that we want.
03:03But in the backdrop of Pahal Gaam and then the attack on the innocent civilians in Poonch, we reported this terrible story of twins, 12-year-old twins who died in the shelling.
03:17Is there growing anger against Pakistan and what the Pakistani army state has done to Jammu and Kashmir over the last three and a half decades?
03:25What terror has done to the people of the state?
03:29Well, if the people weren't angry, Rajdeep, they wouldn't have come out. Nobody forced them to come out.
03:37It wasn't part of any government plan. It wasn't part of any political party's plan. It wasn't part of any individual's plan.
03:44It was a spontaneous expression of anger. But may I just add that where there was a spontaneous expression of anger about what has happened,
03:53what happened in Pahal Gaam to those 26 innocent people. There's also a simmering disappointment
04:00that not enough is being said about all the people who died in this cross-border shelling.
04:05It's almost as if they're being paid lip service.
04:09The fact that, as I said, we've lost people in Rajori, we've lost people in Poonch,
04:13we've lost people in Uri, Baramulla, we've lost people cutting across religious lines, we've lost Muslims, we've lost Hindus, we've lost Sikhs, we've lost civilians, we've lost B.S.F. troopers.
04:27If Gurdwaras and temples came in the range of shelling, so did two madrasas in Poonch.
04:34But somehow, in the national narrative, while a lot is being said about the 26 people who died in Pahal Gaam,
04:42not nearly enough is being said about the innocent blood that was spilt as a result of this shelling.
04:48It's almost as if that almost didn't happen.
04:53But that has been the story, in a way, of Jammu and Kashmir, hasn't it?
04:57A number of Kashmiris have suffered because of what terror has done, what Pakistan-sponsored terror has done over these decades.
05:06Their story often doesn't get told.
05:11Yeah, but that's the point I'm making.
05:13It's a pity.
05:14No, but only half, that's the point.
05:16Only half the story is being told.
05:18The story of Pahal Gaam is being told.
05:21But the story of, like you said, the twins, the lady in Uri who died in her car,
05:26my additional district development commissioner who died in his home in Rajori while carrying out his duties.
05:36These stories, unfortunately, aren't being told.
05:39And I want them to be told because they're a part of a continuation of the same story that started in Pahal Gaam.
05:46Let's come to the Prime Minister for a moment and the Modi doctrine, what happened with Operation Sindhu.
05:53Do you fully believe that this is the way now to take on terror?
05:56There is a terror attack.
05:58We will hit back not just at the terrorists, but at their sponsors.
06:01The Prime Minister has made that amply clear.
06:03We will not be subject to nuclear blackmail by Pakistan.
06:08We will go and hit them in their terror bases and their air bases.
06:11Do you support that?
06:11Well, which Indian won't support it?
06:18I think every Indian who believes in their country and believes that their country has a right to a peaceful existence would support this.
06:27But then this is a continuation of a doctrine that was started by Prime Minister Modi earlier.
06:32Now he's put it into words.
06:35But essentially, this is a continuation of what happened.
06:38It started with the Uri attack and the surgical strikes.
06:41It was followed by Pulwama and Balakot.
06:45And this is the third installment in that same story.
06:48This time, the doctrine has been put into words.
06:52But action on this doctrine started a few years ago.
06:58Will it deter Pakistan-based terrorists, you believe?
07:01Because Pakistan has sponsored terrorists.
07:04They've also many...
07:05Do you believe that this will deter this Pakistani army state, this jihadi factory?
07:09Rajdeep, I wouldn't presume to speak for Pakistan or the infrastructure that it sets up.
07:19This is a question only the government of Pakistan or the people that Pakistan sets up in these sort of camps.
07:28Only they can answer that.
07:29I can only hope.
07:30I can only hope that it deters them.
07:32I can only pray that it deters them.
07:34But I can't say it with any degree of confidence because we've seen violence in the past.
07:39And I just hope to God we don't see the sort of attack that we saw in Pahalgam in the future.
07:46One of the worrying aspects, of course, is that some of these attacks do not take place without local support.
07:52And there is a belief that both in Pahalgam and in other attacks in the past, there's been local support from within the valley.
07:58How do you see that?
08:00Will that infrastructure also crumble or not?
08:04You know, Rajdeep, I don't want to get into a political argument on this channel today.
08:12And I don't want to do it in the aftermath of what happened in Pahalgam.
08:15So I'm not going to get into the whole local infrastructure and what has been said about it in the past.
08:23Except to say that it has existed in the past.
08:30It has been to a very large extent marginalized.
08:34And I think we need to focus on the positives that came out of Pahalgam.
08:38There were very few.
08:39It was a very, very dark cloud that hovered over us.
08:42But the one silver lining in that dark cloud was the spontaneous way in which the overwhelming majority of the people of Jammu and Kashmir came out against the attack in Pahalgam.
08:53I think this is an opportunity we haven't had in the last 35 years.
08:58So rather than focusing on the negatives of the very minuscule sort of minority of population that gives support to these sort of attacks,
09:06I think it's important to focus on the overwhelming majority of the population that stood up against these attacks.
09:13And we need to build on that core support.
09:16My worry is that in everything that's happening, we will lose sight of that.
09:20And this, I mean, once in a lifetime opportunity perhaps that we've got, we'll fritter it away.
09:27No, but is that anger against Pakistan, you believe?
09:29Rajdeep, is there now enough sufficient local anger against Pakistan and what Pakistan has done in bloodying the valley over the last three and a half decades?
09:41How do you want me to quantify that anger, Rajdeep?
09:44We've seen a spontaneous display of that anger.
09:47What more do you want the people of Kashmir to do?
09:52They came out spontaneously and loudly made their voices heard.
09:57What else do you want them to do?
09:59They've silently withstood the shelling from Pakistan without complaining.
10:07They haven't complained that the sort of breakdown of the ceasefire put them in harm's way.
10:12They've quietly withstood the destruction of their homes, of their shops, of their livelihoods,
10:17because they believe that that was the price they had to pay for the situation that developed after Pahalgaam.
10:26So, I think, as I said, we sometimes tend to miss the forest for the trees.
10:32The focus for us should be on the majority of the people of Jammu and Kashmir who have very vocally made their stand known that they don't believe that what happened in Pahalgaam was done for them or supported in any way.
10:51How do you use what you use, the word opportunity?
10:54This is an opportunity.
10:56What is that opportunity you see?
10:57Is it now to ensure that more is done in a way to bridge the divide that has existed in the past between Kashmir and the mainstream Indian power?
11:08Do you believe this is the right time?
11:10You said earlier, I don't want to anymore talk about statehood.
11:13This is not an issue I will raise now.
11:15That's what you said in the assembly.
11:16No, I didn't say that.
11:18I'm sorry.
11:18No, Rajdeep.
11:19That's not.
11:20No, one second.
11:20What did you say?
11:21It's important that I, I mean, you, you, I said that this is not the opportunity to talk about statehood.
11:27My exact words were, no, let me, let me finish because you sort of have taken statehood off the table in total.
11:34That's not the case.
11:35I said, humne isse pehle bhi maanga hai, iske baad bhi maangenge, lekin aaj isse mauke pe nahi maangenge.
11:41The assembly session that was called to condemn the attack in Pahalgaam and to, to sympathize with the 26 people whose lives were lost and their families, that was not the occasion to talk about statehood.
11:54I will talk about statehood.
11:56It will be an ongoing conversation with the government of India, but it wasn't, that wasn't the time for it.
12:01So when would you, so, so, so what do you, when you say opportunity to me on the show, that this is an opportunity, how do you believe this opportunity should be availed?
12:11What would you like to see?
12:12I, I believe, I believe that there is a huge constituency for peace in, in Jammu and Kashmir.
12:21That constituency has to grow.
12:22You have to start trusting the people of Jammu and Kashmir.
12:26You have to start trusting the people of Kashmir.
12:29I think it's important that instead of randomly picking up and detaining people, we need to be more focused in the action that we take.
12:36Not every Kashmiri is a terrorist sympathizer.
12:39Not every Kashmiri is an overground worker of these terrorist organizations.
12:45So we need to stop treating every Kashmiri as though we suspect them.
12:49Not everybody who uses social media is doing so to demonize India.
12:53But somehow, oftentimes, we respond in a very heavy-handed manner.
13:00It's almost as if when all you have is a hammer, then everything to you looks like a nail.
13:05That's, that's not the way we need to treat the people of Jammu and Kashmir.
13:09And that's the point I made.
13:10That's when I talked about this is an opportunity.
13:12You're making an important point because we've seen in the last few weeks security forces blasting the house of alleged terror suspects.
13:20Do you believe that's the right thing to do or that they also deserve due process?
13:24Is that what you're saying, that this is what fuels anger from time to time?
13:31That's, that's, that's one specific thing.
13:32There's, there's, I mean, it's, it goes beyond that.
13:35It, it, it sort of spreads to the sort of very widespread random way in which we detain people if we don't detain them the way we summon them to police stations from morning till, till late at night.
13:48There, there are a whole host of things that I believe if we sort of correct this constituency for peace and this, this spontaneous constituency for peace, this can be grown.
13:59And, and that is the point I'm trying to make.
14:01I'm not in any way, shape, size or form supporting the terror infrastructure in Jammu and Kashmir.
14:07I'm drawing a distinction between the significantly much larger population that wants a normal, peaceful life and, and trying to insulate them from the sort of actions that we've seen in the past.
14:21Let me come specifically, Omar Abdullah, to the ceasefire and what Donald Trump said.
14:25Donald Trump seemed to suggest that, A, he was the one who brought the two sides together and then went on to say that he was very, he was open to settling the thousand year Kashmir dispute.
14:38Of course, he needs a history lesson, but quite apart from that, how do you see that, does it worry you that you've got a U.S. president talking about mediation and thereby going against stated Indian policy as well as internationalizing Kashmir in a way?
14:52Well, unfortunately, as a result of the last couple of weeks, Kashmir is back and center as an international issue.
15:03To some extent, the fact that the U.S. has sort of hyphenated India and Pakistan again after a very long period where this thing had been completely dehyphenated.
15:16I think that's something we're going to have to take into consideration and try and work to correct.
15:23As far as Donald Trump and his attempts to mediate, look, we know what he's like.
15:28He injects himself into a whole lot of situations that he knows very little about.
15:33I wouldn't take that aspect of it very seriously.
15:37We'll have to wait and see.
15:39I think that's something for the Ministry of External Affairs and for the government of India to deal with.
15:43No, but does it worry you as the chief minister of Jammu and Kashmir, the manner that a U.S. president should announce the ceasefire and then almost unilaterally claim that he's ready to resolve the dispute?
15:57Rajdeep, I've got too many real world problems to worry about what Donald Trump is tweeting or not tweeting.
16:02I still have people in hospital who are injured from the cross-border shelling.
16:06I still have people whose homes are in ruins.
16:10I still have people whose businesses and shops are in ruins.
16:15I need to put their lives back in order.
16:18Where what Donald Trump has to say on his social media platform or on X, honestly, in my list of priorities is pretty low down in the pecking order.
16:30Let me ask you, though, a question that I know troubles you, but you've not always been open about it.
16:36The fact that while Kashmir was, after Article 370's abrogation, effective abrogation brought into a union territory,
16:43law and order, for example, was taken away from the chief minister, goes to the centre, the LG runs the show.
16:48Do you believe that you've been a chief minister who's been hamstrung as a result?
16:54That even when Pehelgaam happens, there will be those who'll point fingers at you, Omar Abdullah,
16:58when the truth is you didn't even attend the high security review meetings called by Amit Shah,
17:03that was all done with the LG there.
17:04Does that trouble you that the law and order is not with the chief minister
17:07and you therefore do not have the powers you need to have?
17:15I'm sorry, what's the question in this?
17:17My question is very clear.
17:18Do you believe that if Omar Abdullah is to be held accountable, you need more power also?
17:25Power with accountability, you must also have the power?
17:29Look, Rajdeep, when I'm responsible for security and law and order, by all means, hold me to account for it.
17:37And until then, you'll have to hold those people to account who are responsible for it.
17:42The elected government is not responsible for security and law and order.
17:47And therefore, as much as some people might like to hold me to account for what happened,
17:53this is not the opportunity.
17:55Yes, as in when Jammu and Kashmir is restored to statehood and full statehood,
18:00where the elected government is responsible for security and law and order,
18:03then I'm responsible for every single life that is lost in Jammu and Kashmir during the period that I'm chief minister.
18:10And I will take on that responsibility.
18:12I've never shied away from accepting responsibility for the things that are under my direct control.
18:19But as I said earlier, the conversation about restoration of statehood is one that will be had,
18:25and it will be had at the appropriate level in the government of India.
18:29Appropriate level, but when?
18:31Should it be had right away?
18:32You said in the assembly that was not the opportune time, but should it be held now?
18:35It's definitely, it's definitely, well, it's not going to be held tonight,
18:40and it's not going to be held on your channel.
18:42It will be held behind closed doors with the people that matter in Delhi, and it will be held.
18:47At the earliest?
18:48Do you believe it should be held at the earliest?
18:50Let's be fair.
18:54I think the prime minister, home minister, defense minister have a few things on their plate at the moment.
18:59Let's get through this immediate problem, and then we'll take it from there.
19:03Do you believe Pahlkam was a major security lapse?
19:06Who do you hold responsible for it?
19:07Not, I'm not getting into that one.
19:13It's definitely a conversation that needs to be had, but again, it's not a conversation I'm going to have over the airwaves of your channel or anybody else's channel.
19:23You know, you are also the tourism minister of Jammu and Kashmir,
19:26and one of the beliefs was that tourism was becoming a huge bridge between Kashmir and the rest of the country,
19:32and tourism was booming.
19:33This was going to be the big season for tourism.
19:35Now that Pahlkam has happened, a lot of tourists have left.
19:39What is your message?
19:39How are you going to bring back and restore confidence that Kashmir is safe to come to?
19:47We'll do it brick by brick.
19:48It's going to be a slow process, but it's a process that we will begin.
19:53I think at the moment, our focus should be on ensuring an incident-free Amarnath Yatra.
20:00If we can conduct an Amarnath Yatra, incident-free, largely on the same scale that we've had in previous years,
20:08that will give some confidence going ahead, and then we'll build on from there.
20:14What's the biggest learning for you, Omar, of these last three weeks?
20:19Is it, as many believe, every time we feel that we're taking one step forward, Kashmir gets pulled one step back,
20:25because terror takes place, or there is some tragedy lurking around the corner.
20:29How is, you know, how is all of this, what is your big learning from what's happened in the last three weeks?
20:34That in Jammu and Kashmir, just because you've had a good day today is no guarantee you'll have a good day tomorrow.
20:43And do you have a message for Pakistan and Islamabad?
20:46What's been very clear is this is a country whose army, rogue state, has, as I keep saying, bloodied your valley.
20:52Do you have a message?
20:53Would you, if you were to tell Asim Munir, who spoke of the two-nation theory,
20:58and Hindus and Muslims can't coexist, or you wanted to say something to Shahbaz Sharif, what would it be?
21:04Please let us get on with our lives.
21:08Please, just let us get on with our lives.
21:12We want to live peacefully.
21:14We want to be a part of the Indian growth and success story.
21:22And just let us get on with our lives.
21:26And Omar Abdullah, are you more optimistic about the future than you were before the 22nd of April?
21:32Do you believe that it is still possible for Kashmiris and indeed the people of your state to live peaceably
21:38and to find perhaps a light at the end of this dark tunnel?
21:43Are you a little bit more optimistic today, now?
21:47How do I answer that, Rajdeep?
21:56The sound of the guns is still echoing in our ears.
22:01I'm hopeful.
22:03I'm hopeful.
22:06If we get a few good months, a few peaceful months, if we get a good Amarnath Yatra,
22:10then call me back and we'll talk about how optimistic I am.
22:15Right now, let's just say I'm hopeful.
22:16I want to say one thing, though, Omar.
22:18I heard you speak in the Assembly and I know you've gone, met a lot of those who've been injured.
22:23You've stood up to be counted at this time.
22:26Your speech was a fine speech that brought a lot of people,
22:29both in mainstream India and in Kashmir together.
22:32I hope that that Hindu-Muslim unity can last.
22:36I'm sure you want that above all else because that has been a huge scar,
22:41both in the Kashmir Valley, going back to what happened to the pundits,
22:44to what's happened in recent times.
22:47I guess the world is still there, right?
22:52Well, absolutely.
22:53And we've seen evidence of it on the ground.
22:55This attack in Pahalgam was designed to split communities.
22:58It was designed to tear this country apart on religious lines.
23:03It was designed to pit Muslims against Hindus.
23:06And the one place where this would have been most apparent would have been in Jammu and Kashmir.
23:11But it didn't happen.
23:13It didn't happen in Jammu.
23:14It didn't happen in Ponch.
23:16It didn't happen in Rajori.
23:17It hasn't happened in Doda, in Kishtawad, in Ramban,
23:20in any of the places where this was designed to tear people apart.
23:26And hats off to the people of Jammu and Kashmir for that Hindu-Muslim Sikh itihad.
23:32They have lived up to that Mahatma Gandhi's sort of Roshni ka chirag lit in Jammu and Kashmir in 1947.
23:41And again have proven that they will not allow these forces to rip apart the relations that exist between communities.
23:52Let me leave it there, Omar Abdullah.
23:55As I said, we end this conversation on a note of hope.
23:59It isn't easy being the Chief Minister of Jammu and Kashmir as you've realized yet again in the last three weeks.
24:04But I thank you for joining me and having this conversation, Omar Abdullah.
24:09And I call it a conversation in the truest sense of the word.
24:12So thank you.
24:15Pleasure.
24:16Omar Abdullah there, speaking out and speaking very loudly and clearly.
24:22I hope the people of India and Pakistan have listened today to the Chief Minister of Jammu and Kashmir.