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00:00It's Mike Hell, Williams, Edge Rusher, Georgia, 49er.
00:06All right, we're coming to you live from the Laughing Monk Studios,
00:08Laughing Monk righteously brewed here in San Francisco.
00:12We're also going out to the River Islands guest line
00:14so that we can check in with someone who's not been on the show in far too long,
00:20and it's actually only been like two or three months.
00:23But we miss you, Greg Cosell.
00:25It's great to have you.
00:27Hey, guys, how are you?
00:28We're great.
00:29Let's jump right into it.
00:30What do you think of the Niners' pick of Mike Hell, Williams?
00:34I mean, I think it's a good pick at a position of need.
00:38You know, Williams is an interesting guy.
00:39I watched him last summer.
00:41I think I watched six or seven games last summer from his 2023 tape.
00:46Then, of course, I watched him this year quite a few games.
00:49He was a guy that, you know, he came out of Georgia.
00:51He was a five-star recruit, a top 50 prospect.
00:55I actually had a chance to see him up close and personal.
00:58He was the Maxwell Award winner when the Maxwell dinner was in Philadelphia.
01:03And so I saw him, you know, in a suit, and he looked like a man when he was 17 years old.
01:08But he's an interesting guy because some would argue that he hasn't quite reached his full potential, you know, because he's big.
01:18He's over 6'5".
01:19He's 260.
01:20He's got ridiculously long arms.
01:21As a pass rusher, I think it's all there in his body, guys.
01:26And, you know, we'll talk about this as we go through this first half hour.
01:30But it hasn't quite come together yet.
01:33But there's no question that it's all there.
01:36And, you know, obviously the 49ers have a very good D-line coach.
01:40So the goal is to get it there because it's certainly when you see what he can do and what he does at times, you feel like if he could just get to that point more often that he could be a dominant player.
01:54How is he as a scheme fit, Greg?
01:56Because we know with, you know, the defensive coordinator coming back and it's, you know, Robert Sala and they would like to run that wide nine with the 4-3.
02:05Does his skill set match with what they most likely are going to try to do with that wide nine and the 4-3?
02:11Sure.
02:11I mean, he best projects and transitions to the NFL as a 4-3 D-end.
02:16There's no question.
02:17You can move him inside and subfronts if you like.
02:19But as a base player, when they line up on the first day of rookie OTA or minicamp or whatever they call it these days, he's going to be a 4-3 D-end.
02:29So I think, you know, what you're looking for, obviously, is the ability to rush the quarterback.
02:34That's first and foremost.
02:36We know coaches will always talk about playing the run, setting the edge, all those fundamental things that are important.
02:42But at the end of the day, when you draft a defensive end with the 11th pick in the draft and a 4-3 front,
02:48you're counting on him to be able to rush the quarterback.
02:52So, you know, he's shown flashes of that.
02:54He's shown flashes of speed to power conversion.
02:57He's very strong.
02:59He's got really long arms.
03:01He's got that short stroke strength where he can jar people.
03:05And the power part is the most critical piece to have as you enter the NFL, and he has that.
03:11So he's also shown the ability to play off contact.
03:15What he needs to get better at is he needs to get better at using his hands to have more tools in his toolbox, as it were.
03:24He needs a larger arsenal of moves in order to rush the quarterback consistently at the NFL level.
03:31I think he's able to do that.
03:34I think it's there.
03:35But, you know, when I finished watching his tape, guys, obviously I didn't know he was going to be drafted by the 49ers.
03:41I basically said that it's all there, but it's an open question as to whether he'll do it in the NFL.
03:46If you don't see it on tape, you don't know.
03:50But there's no question that just as a physical athlete, it is all there.
03:54Greg Cosell, NFL Films, with us here.
03:57We're three o'clock hour on Willard and Dibbs as we break down both what happened yesterday and what's coming later on this evening on day two of the NFL draft.
04:06Greg, can you maybe share with us and the audience a little bit about the why in terms of his college experience and why you think it hasn't fully all clicked,
04:21even though, as you say, the tools are there?
04:25Well, there's probably a couple of reasons.
04:27Number one, I'm sure he was just a ridiculous athlete from the time he was young.
04:32And he probably, as I said, I saw him when he was 17 years old and he looked like a man.
04:36So I'm sure he didn't need a lot of moves and a lot of ancillary things in order to be a dominant, dominant high school player.
04:44Number two, he's been through some injuries in his college career.
04:49And, you know, you never know the extent of those injuries and how they impact a player.
04:53The bottom line is, and this is the case in the NFL, if you are playing, and you guys know this, if you are playing, the injuries don't matter.
05:02You know, there's not one player who walks into a locker room after a game and says, you know, guys, sorry, I didn't play great today, but my ankle hurts.
05:09You know, that doesn't fly.
05:10So it doesn't matter.
05:12So the point is, if you're playing, you're playing.
05:15So, but, you know, from what I've heard, he dealt with some injuries this season.
05:20So maybe that's the reason.
05:22But, you know, like I said, it's there.
05:25It's a matter of getting it out of him.
05:27And when you look at the other players of his caliber and his ilk who got taken in the first round, and you look at his tape, is he comparable with the other players who were either drafted right behind him or all around him?
05:42Well, who are you referring to specifically?
05:45Anybody?
05:46I mean, like Shamar Stewart?
05:47Yeah, and, you know, you talk about Nolan, who was taken a few picks later, a guy who, you know, is in the interior and maybe could be equally a fit for this Niner team that's desperate for both.
05:59Well, Nolan's obviously a D-tackle.
06:02I thought he was D-tackle number one in this draft.
06:05I like him better as a player than Mikel Williams.
06:09But, you know, they might be, they might feel they wanted an edge player.
06:13See, that's the thing.
06:14First of all, I don't know what team's boards are.
06:16I have such great respect for the people in this business because I know what I do.
06:20I'm not one of those people that's going to say, oh, that's a reach, that's a bad pick.
06:23I won't talk like that just because I have too much respect.
06:26I can only tell you what I think, which doesn't mean that it's right or wrong.
06:30You know, I really loved Walter Nolan's tape.
06:33I thought he was a top 10 type player in this given draft.
06:37But, you know, Williams is a guy, look, we could be talking in three years about Williams being a dominant player in the league.
06:44He has that kind of ability or we could be talking about him being just, you know, a good player or we could be talking about him being an average player.
06:51You never know.
06:52But he certainly has everything you want when you just look at pure physical and athletic traits.
06:57Greg, what would you say about his teammate, the linebacker, Jalen Walker, because a lot of people, when they got to the 11th pick and Walker was available too, and again, no Dre Greenlaw position of need in theory.
07:12I'd love to know what your thought was in that moment as far as, you know, that player and the fit with the Niners.
07:21Yeah, when I finished Jalen Walker, I wasn't sure what he was in the NFL.
07:25I think the best thing he does is rush the quarterback, but he's not a 4-3-D end.
07:29So, you know, he's 6'1", 243.
07:32He's not a 4-3-D end.
07:33And I thought that that was the best thing he did was to rush the quarterback.
07:37I did not think he was a great stacked backer.
07:40So when I finished watching him, I said to myself, because the way I watch this, guys, as you probably can figure out, is I'm not just looking at the college tape and seeing, oh, boy, he's a really good player.
07:51I'm thinking about what he is in the NFL, because that's the whole point of the exercise is to project and transition these guys into the NFL.
07:59Now, I obviously don't work for a team, but we're talking specifically about the Niners right now, and they are a 4-3 defense.
08:05And in a 4-3 defense, Jalen Walker, to me, is not a 4-3 defensive end.
08:11Now, you can use him as a sub-front pass rusher, as a D end, but if you're going to line up in your base defense, he is not a D end.
08:21So he becomes a stacked backer, and I'm not sure that that's his best position.
08:26So I wasn't sure about Jalen Walker, even though the guy clearly is sudden and twitchy and explosive and certainly can rush the quarterback.
08:34I'm not sure that the Niners would see him as an exact fit for their defense.
08:39It's an interesting way to look at it, and I think about what you said about Mikel Williams and, you know, maybe coming to the inside on, like, passing downs.
08:48Is he somebody that you would think about playing D tackle in a 4-3 on passing downs as opposed to rundowns?
08:55Can he be a guy who holds up on the interior against the run?
09:00Well, no.
09:01I would see him as a D end in your base defense.
09:04Like I said, maybe, you know, when it's third and long, if you want to bring him inside, if you feel like you have another really good edge pass rusher.
09:10I mean, they still have Gross Matos.
09:13They still have the other kid whose name I can't remember.
09:17The long name, I can't remember his name right now.
09:20Okawonu, yeah.
09:21Okawonu, yeah.
09:22Okawonu, you know, who had really good snaps a year ago, and he played on the outside as well.
09:27So I think in a sub front, you can move Williams inside.
09:30But if you're lining up in your base 4-3 on first and 10 or second and 4, your base defense, Williams is a defensive end.
09:38I don't know if this question is going to fit because there's so many stylistic kind of things here, Greg.
09:45But, oh, and by the way, I want to let all of our listeners know that we are about to be open for your business with Greg Cosell.
09:53So if it's a draft question, where the 49ers sit, their needs, the players who are still on the board,
09:59what happened yesterday, if you've got a question for the great Greg Cosell at NFL Films,
10:04go ahead and dial up right now.
10:06We will take your calls this hour, 888-957-9570.
10:10But you said something in one of your first answers, Greg, about, like,
10:15the question is whether Mike Kell will be able to do XYZ at the NFL level.
10:20How many guys approximately in this draft do you feel like, no doubt, that guy's going to be able to do it at the NFL level?
10:32Boy, that's a high, I mean, I can't, you know, I can't think of all 32 picks right now off the top of my head.
10:37Right.
10:38But, uh...
10:39I mean, before the picks are even made, Greg, like, going into last night,
10:43how, like, did you feel there were a certain handful of no doubters?
10:47Well, I think I always feel that way in my mind when I watch guys,
10:52but I always think in terms of scheme and fit.
10:56Because you have to understand, scouts, they obviously work for a team,
11:00but they think very much in terms of measurables and traits.
11:04Coaches think in terms of scheme adaptability.
11:07How does a guy fit my scheme?
11:09Because that's what he's going to line up with.
11:11Now, obviously, if you have a transcendent player, but there's very few of those,
11:15you might adapt the scheme a little bit because you want to make sure that
11:19you maximize that particular player's abilities.
11:23But, you know, when I watch guys, think of it this way, guys.
11:27On defense, every single week on defense, depending on the team,
11:3117, 18, 19 guys play because there's different packages, right?
11:35Isn't that normally the case?
11:36So maybe one team has 15, but a lot of guys play on defense.
11:40So when I watch guys, and I had to learn this lesson years ago,
11:44when I started watching college players, and that probably goes back,
11:47I don't know, 15, 18 years, I used to think in terms of, well,
11:51he either can play or he can't play, and I was wrong.
11:53I was wrong for a number of years because so many guys play.
11:57You know, there's a lot of guys I watch, and I say to myself,
12:00this guy could be really good as a dime safety, okay?
12:04But you know what?
12:04The 15 snaps that that guy plays, those 15 snaps are really important
12:09to the defensive coordinator.
12:11So there's a lot of guys I watch that I think can play in the league
12:15and make a contribution.
12:17If you're asking me who do I think is going to be, you know, a superstar,
12:20that's always a hard question to answer.
12:22Like, for instance, we mentioned Walter Nolan.
12:25I really liked Walter Nolan.
12:27I thought he was D-tackle one.
12:28When I watched his tape, there were shades of what Jalen Carter did at Georgia.
12:33I just loved his tape.
12:34He was ragdolling, you know, interior offensive linemen in the SEC.
12:38So, for instance, I liked his tape more than Mason Graham,
12:41and Mason Graham won fifth to, I guess, the Browns because they made that trade.
12:46Does that mean I'm right?
12:48I guess we're going to find out.
12:49But that's what I thought when I watched the tape.
12:52Yeah, interesting scheme and fit and situation and the rest,
12:55and I want to pivot just to the quarterback part of it
12:58because Cam Ward goes one to Tennessee,
13:01and Shadur Sanders is still sitting out there,
13:03and yet Jackson Dart got taken later in the first round.
13:07What did you think about the way the quarterback first round played out
13:11with Shadur Sanders still sitting on the couch?
13:14Yeah, to me, it's about right.
13:16It's funny.
13:17I had a number of conversations today with people calling me,
13:20and, you know, I thought Shadur Sanders,
13:24think of it this way.
13:25It's kind of a 30,000-foot macro response here.
13:28In today's NFL, you know, and, again,
13:32now you get down to team and scheme and coaches
13:35and all those things all factor in, okay?
13:38In today's NFL, more often than not,
13:42you really need a quarterback that has some kind of secondary action
13:45outside of structure ability.
13:47Defenses are sophisticated with pressure concepts.
13:51It's really difficult on third down.
13:53So your quarterback has to be able to make plays
13:56outside the structure of the play call at some point in a game, okay?
14:00Now, not everybody's Josh Allen.
14:02We know that, or Patrick Mahomes.
14:04But at some point, you've got to be able to do that.
14:07If you're a pure pocket quarterback,
14:09which essentially Shadur Sanders is, okay?
14:13Now, he's not immobile, but at his core, he's a pocket quarterback.
14:16Just like at his core, C.J. Stroud's a pocket quarterback.
14:19Then you have to be really, really good in so many areas, okay?
14:26And Shadur Sanders is good in some
14:28and has meaningful concerns in others.
14:31So, to me, he was not a first-round pick.
14:34Now, he may end up being a really good player.
14:36It depends on team and scheme and how he's coached.
14:39And if he's willing to be coached, very often it comes down to that.
14:42So, where he, the fact that he was not taken in the first round
14:46did not surprise me at all.
14:47Do you think he's going off the board early tonight or should?
14:53I mean, is he worthy of a second-round pick?
14:56Probably, you know, given the nature of the position.
15:00But I would say in an ideal world,
15:02he's probably a mid- to late-second-round-type pick player
15:06when you look at it, you know, for what his traits are
15:09and what the league is.
15:11He's not as good a prospect as C.J. Stroud.
15:13And C.J. Stroud, like I said, they're similar stylistically.
15:16But Stroud was a far better prospect.
15:19So, yeah, I mean, and I think the reason Jackson Dart probably goes higher
15:23and he has some concerns of his own as well
15:25is that he gives you that mobility.
15:27Jackson Dart can make plays with his legs.
15:30Sanders, yeah, can he run for a first down?
15:33Sure.
15:33But he's not really a playmaker with his legs.
15:36Dart can make plays with his legs.
15:37Greg, what did you think of Ashton Jinty to the Raiders at six?
15:40I mean, you know, it's funny, guys.
15:45That's another thing that now is kind of a larger worldview
15:48because last year there were six running backs in the NFL
15:50that had 300 carries.
15:52That was the first time in a very long time
15:54that you had that number of running backs
15:56with that number of carries.
15:58So maybe it's just a snapshot.
16:00Maybe it's a trend in the league.
16:01We don't know the answer to that yet.
16:03But, you know, I think teams are realizing
16:05that the run game is becoming a bigger factor,
16:07the way defenses have evolved over the last couple of years
16:10to take away certain things in the past game.
16:13And I think the run game is becoming a bigger factor.
16:15So, you know, and the Raiders obviously signed Geno Smith,
16:19and now they have a running back
16:20who will clearly be their foundation back.
16:23He's clearly a very good prospect.
16:25I mean, I've been on record as saying
16:27I don't think he's as good a prospect
16:28as Bijan Robinson was when he came out of Texas,
16:30but he's clearly a very good prospect.
16:33And ultimately the prospect is only as good as the O-line
16:35that can create holes for him.
16:37So that is one that's interesting to see.
16:40One more before we go to the phones, Greg,
16:41because many people are lining up to ask you questions.
16:44But the idea that Jacksonville trades up to two
16:46to take Travis Hunter,
16:47and Hunter wants to play on both sides of the football,
16:51is that something that's really sustainable
16:53in this National Football League today?
16:56Well, here's something that I'm not hearing
16:57a lot of people talk about.
16:58And to me, it's obvious.
16:59And I'm not saying this because I think,
17:01oh boy, I'm smarter than anybody else.
17:02But you are.
17:03Well, no, I'm not.
17:04You know, just ask my wife.
17:07She won't tell you that.
17:08You're smarter than somebody, Greg.
17:10Maybe not everybody.
17:11Yeah, yeah.
17:12I'm smarter than my two cats, you know.
17:16But anyway, thank you.
17:20But anyway, the point to me is this.
17:23The point is preparation.
17:25I mean, could you imagine?
17:26Think of it this way.
17:27Now, think if it's the Niners.
17:29Think if Kyle Shanahan has him
17:31and he wants to play him at receiver.
17:33And he goes into Robert Sala on a Wednesday morning
17:36and says, hey, coach, you know,
17:37the next two days, you know,
17:39Travis Hunter is going to be with me on offense.
17:41So he's not going to be with you on defense.
17:43And Robert Sala says, but coach,
17:45I'm putting in 15 new things this week
17:47for the opponent we're playing.
17:48And you know what?
17:49If he's not, if he can't be in our meetings
17:51and practice on the defensive end,
17:53I don't feel comfortable putting him out there.
17:55See, to me, it comes all down to preparation.
17:57Is he physically capable of doing that?
18:00Maybe.
18:01I mean, I don't think it's realistic
18:02to expect him to play 120 snaps for 17 games,
18:06you know, but maybe I'm wrong.
18:07But to me, it's the preparation part.
18:09You know how coaches are,
18:11what sticklers they are for preparation.
18:13They want guys out there that they can trust
18:15that don't make mistakes.
18:17And I'm not suggesting Travis Hunter,
18:19he's supposed to be incredibly intelligent.
18:21So it's no knock on Travis Hunter,
18:23but it's just if you're not in the room,
18:25you don't know what's being done.
18:26You know, if you're not in class,
18:28you're probably not going to pass the test.
18:30You know, it's just the way it works.
18:32So that, to me, is the issue.
18:33It's the preparation part of it.
18:35And I really haven't heard anybody talk about that.
18:37And to me, that's the obvious part.
18:40Greg Cosell, NFL Films,
18:42with us here for the whole 3 o'clock hour
18:45as we get ready for rounds 2 and 3 tonight.
18:47Greg, we got some listeners
18:49that like to throw a question or two at you.
18:52Let's go to Cole in the city.
18:54Cole, thank you for calling.
18:55You're on with Greg Cosell.
18:58Hey, thanks for taking my call, guys.
19:00Yeah, ma'am.
19:01Go ahead.
19:02So I'm curious, Greg,
19:04if you can talk a little bit about
19:05what happened with Mike Green
19:08out of Marshall.
19:10Like, he was the Sunbelt Player of the Year.
19:12He led the country in sacks.
19:15Baldy was saying that the Niners,
19:16he wouldn't be surprised
19:17if they took him at 11.
19:18And I don't know why he fell
19:21out of the first round.
19:22Like, can you shed some light on that?
19:24All I can tell you is what I've heard,
19:26because I don't talk about this
19:27because I don't know,
19:28but I've heard that there were some issues
19:30with him on a personal level.
19:32So I don't want to go there
19:33because I don't know.
19:34I just heard that.
19:35But I will say this as a player,
19:37he's a more advanced pass rusher
19:39at this moment in time than Williams.
19:41I thought Mike Green
19:42had more tools in his toolbox.
19:46I thought that he had
19:47a diversified pass rush repertoire.
19:50I thought he had a really good feel
19:51for attacking offensive tackles.
19:54So I thought there were two guys
19:56who were not drafted last night.
19:58To me, I'm just telling you
19:59what I think based on my tape study,
20:01there were two guys that I thought
20:03had the most tools in the toolbox
20:05of the pass rushers.
20:07One was Green,
20:08and the other was Nick Scowerton
20:09from Texas A&M,
20:10who did not go either
20:11in the first round.
20:13Scowerton, there's no problem
20:15with him personally
20:15from what I've heard,
20:16but he's not a twitchy guy,
20:18so people maybe think that,
20:19oh, you can't take a guy
20:21who's not a twitchy guy
20:22in the first round.
20:23But yeah, Green is,
20:25I really liked his tape.
20:27Obviously, he played
20:27in a lesser conference,
20:29but he did play against Ohio State,
20:31and I watched that tape,
20:32and he held his own,
20:33actually had a great sack
20:34against their right tackle
20:35with a great spin move.
20:37So just from a pure
20:38athletic standpoint,
20:39and I really like Mike Green,
20:42and I thought he was worthy
20:43of a first round pick,
20:44but I don't want people
20:45to think I'm knocking
20:46the 49ers.
20:47There's many variables
20:48and many factors
20:49that go into this.
20:50I'm just sitting in my office
20:52at the NFL Films
20:52watching tape.
20:53All right, Gary in Daly City,
20:55next up.
20:56Hi, Gary, thanks for calling.
20:57You're on with Greg Gosell.
20:59Yeah, thanks.
21:00Been a fan since the 60s.
21:01Question,
21:01best wide receiver
21:02that would fit Shanahan's system
21:04that's left on the board,
21:05and best big play linebacker,
21:07or just all-around linebacker
21:09that would fit Salah's system
21:11right now.
21:12Thanks, Gary.
21:14I'll give you a wide receiver
21:15that I love,
21:16that I think would absolutely
21:17fit the system,
21:17and that's Jaden Higgins
21:18from Iowa State.
21:19He's 6'4 and an eighth.
21:20He runs well.
21:22He caught a ton of balls
21:25between the numbers
21:25at Iowa State.
21:27That was his game,
21:28but he's got some juice to him.
21:30I love Jaden Higgins.
21:31You know, to me,
21:32I watched him last summer,
21:33didn't know one thing about him.
21:34I think he was a transfer
21:35from Eastern Kentucky,
21:37and I actually love it
21:38when I don't know
21:39anything about a player,
21:41you know,
21:41when he's totally
21:41virgin territory for me,
21:43and then I watch him,
21:44and I really like him,
21:46and I'm like,
21:46oh, I didn't know
21:47anything about this guy.
21:48So Jaden Higgins,
21:48to me,
21:49that was the first name
21:50that came to my mind.
21:52Linebacker,
21:52I'll tell you a guy
21:54I really like,
21:55and he, you know,
21:56linebackers now,
21:57stacked backers kind of
21:58fall into two categories
21:59in this league.
22:00The guys who are athletic
22:01and can run
22:02and are kind of
22:03run-and-chase players,
22:04which the colleges
22:05are giving to the NFL
22:06more than ever before,
22:08and then the old-school
22:09linebackers who kind of
22:11can stack and shed,
22:12as we say,
22:12are physical,
22:13and I really like
22:14Demetrius Knight
22:15from South Carolina.
22:16I have no idea
22:17where he'll be drafted.
22:18He can run,
22:19by the way,
22:19but he's,
22:20at his core,
22:21he's a big physical
22:22stack-and-shed linebacker,
22:24and, you know,
22:25he's just a player
22:25I really liked on tape.
22:27Greg Cosell,
22:28NFL Films,
22:29breaking down the NFL draft,
22:30and we are not done yet.
22:31So, number one,
22:33we're still taking your calls
22:34for the rest of the
22:35three o'clock hour
22:36for Greg.
22:37So, if you've got
22:38an NFL draft
22:39or 49ers-related
22:40question for Greg,
22:42fire away right now,
22:43888-957-9570.
22:46Coming up next,
22:47more with Greg,
22:48and we will get into
22:49specific thoughts
22:50as the Niners are only
22:5211 picks away
22:53from doing this again.
22:54Round two starts
22:55in a half hour.
22:56Maybe are there
22:57some other names,
22:58Greg,
22:58that you like,
22:59and let's look
23:00at the current roster
23:01and maybe some of the needs
23:02they still have.
23:03So,