In today’s rapidly evolving world, the term ‘Green Jobs’ is becoming increasingly significant. This sector is thriving with new opportunities, but it also brings a unique set of challenges, requiring adaptations and addressing important questions such as:
• Is India transitioning to a sustainable future fast enough?
• Are we prepared to embrace the green job revolution?
• How can we tackle the challenges that come with it?
While we may not have all the answers yet, one thing is certain. With well-defined career paths and strong support systems, individuals can confidently embrace sustainability and contribute to building a greener future.
Sustainability and Regulatory Affairs Editor Sudipto Dey and former Global Head for Sustainability and current professor Santhosh Jayaram speaks with #OutlookBusiness about sustainability, green jobs, career opportunities, and much more.
• Is India transitioning to a sustainable future fast enough?
• Are we prepared to embrace the green job revolution?
• How can we tackle the challenges that come with it?
While we may not have all the answers yet, one thing is certain. With well-defined career paths and strong support systems, individuals can confidently embrace sustainability and contribute to building a greener future.
Sustainability and Regulatory Affairs Editor Sudipto Dey and former Global Head for Sustainability and current professor Santhosh Jayaram speaks with #OutlookBusiness about sustainability, green jobs, career opportunities, and much more.
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NewsTranscript
00:00The moment you talk about sustainability-related jobs, people think it will be more aligned with the environment or something like that.
00:06The three circles meeting, which is economic, environment and social, and their meeting point is the sustainability.
00:13We are going through an era where there is a lot of challenges in terms of whether it is water or soil quality and all those things.
00:21This journey towards a sustainable economy has created what I will call as a level playing field.
00:27If you look across the globe, nobody has cracked the code.
00:30So, whomever cracks the code are going to be the next leaders.
00:45Hello and welcome to Planet People Profit.
00:49I am Sudipto, host of the podcast that dives into the world of sustainability and its impact on our lives, businesses and the planet.
00:56Brought to you by Outlook Business.
00:58In today's episode, we will explore career opportunities in a climate, sustainability and the environment with a special focus on India's rapidly evolving job market.
01:07To help us navigate this exciting landscape, we have an incredible guest, Mr. Shantosh Jairam.
01:11Mr. Jairam, welcome to the podcast.
01:14Thank you for having me here.
01:15You know, your journey into the sustainability education space has been an inspiring one and the story in itself.
01:21You know, why don't you share with the audience, you know, the trajectory of your entry into the sustainable education space?
01:31Oh, so I would say it's very conventional to start with, since that just like any other student of that era, engineering, my bachelor's was in mechanical engineering.
01:44And then I joined the manufacturing industry, to be precise, cement manufacturing.
01:50Okay.
01:51And so first two years, I was a process engineer and then an opportunity came by to do my master's in environmental engineering.
02:01Okay.
02:01And that, I should say, was the turning point.
02:05That must have been 90s?
02:0695.
02:07Oh, yeah.
02:09So that must be the turning point for me to move into the sustainability space.
02:14So after completing my master's, I went back to the manufacturing.
02:18So I should say my career, first nine years was in the manufacturing.
02:23Then the next 10 years, it was the carbon credit regime of the UNFCC, the Kyoto Protocol has come in place.
02:31Pretty early.
02:32Yeah, I mean, I moved into that space in 2002.
02:36And so the next 10 years, I would say I was like in that particular space of verification, validations, certifications.
02:48And that has been the kind of role.
02:50And then the whole of the sustainability management took up quite a bit in India.
02:56And that was the time when I joined KPMG.
03:00And of course, the ride with KPMG has been pretty good.
03:04Being able to develop one of the biggest consulting teams across the management consulting teams in India.
03:12And yeah, I mean, when I turned 50, I already had an idea that I should go back and teach.
03:21Teaching has always been a thing of interest for me.
03:26And I wanted to go back and teach.
03:29And that's how I kind of moved into academic.
03:33So I am starting to teach.
03:36And from this new year onwards, I am starting my PhD research as well.
03:41Interesting.
03:42Yes.
03:43So that has been the kind of journey for me.
03:46So you will be teaching and also be taught.
03:49Yes.
03:50I will be a student as well as I will be a research scholar plus I will be teaching.
03:54Very interesting.
03:55You know, coming back to the basics on green jobs, you know, a lot of people think that green jobs are a, the word itself, the term itself is a bit of a misnomer.
04:07So are we sort of looking at going into an era where, you know, we used to have blue collar workers, you know, white collar workers, then we have green collar workers.
04:17Are you heading towards that sort of a scenario?
04:20And what is your definition?
04:22How should one define green jobs, you know, in terms of jobs which help to preserve or conserve the planet?
04:30So what is your definition of a sustainability related job?
04:36See, we, I would say we have, we'd be mixing up terminologies here quite a bit.
04:40Absolutely.
04:42Green, as I would say, is that making it into a color is a little bit of a challenge.
04:49Because then there are different shades of the color.
04:54And so rather than that, I would kind of look at it from a more sustainability related kind of jobs.
05:00And before I talk about the sustainability related jobs, I should say that we should step back and look at what is sustainability, right?
05:07I mean, because the challenge is that the moment you talk about sustainability related jobs, people think again, as you mentioned, it will be more aligned with the environment or something like that.
05:18See, the word sustainability in the current context, it all kind of evolved when the publication of the limits to the earth or the limits to growth happened from the Club of Rome.
05:32And it was the starting point of this term called sustainability.
05:36Which year was that?
05:38It should be in the 70s.
05:39Okay.
05:40Yeah.
05:40And around the 80s, you know, the so-called Venn diagram, which popularly people know, the three circles, that came.
05:51Edward Barbier, the economist, was the person who brought that in and who said the three circles meeting, which is economic, environment and social, and their meeting point is the sustainability.
06:05Of course, followed by John L. Kinton and the others who defined what is called as a triple bottom line approach.
06:13And then the whole of the standard setting bodies like GRI and all took it out and they brought on sustainability.
06:19And the whole of the corporate sustainability, all those kind of things, got started getting defined as this three bottom lines.
06:26Of course, in 2018, John L. Kinton wrote a piece in a Harvard article saying that it's time to recall, because people have started compartmentalizing it into these three different.
06:39So when he thought of triple bottom line, he was thinking about an integrated way of approaching these things.
06:44But having said that, yes, the social dimension also plays a big role into this.
06:51So when we look at it more from a sustainability angle, I would say that there are three dimensions in which you can look at jobs.
07:01One is every professional, every job will have to integrate sustainability.
07:09So for example, whether it is a lawyer, whether it is an accountant, whether it is a management professional,
07:21I think all of them will have to integrate sustainability as part of their way forward, or even an economist for that matter, because that's the way it has to move forward.
07:33Or for example, even in terms of very hard skills, like for example, you really look at a carpentry, or any of those kinds of masonry.
07:45They all will have to incorporate sustainability principles as part of how they work and how the things should be.
07:54And that has to do a lot with the educational system, skilling systems, and all those things, which will have to integrate this as part of it.
08:02Because that's the only way we can go to a sustainable world.
08:06So that's the one area.
08:09The second area is that there will be a requirement of more number of professionals in certain segments.
08:18Because as we move, as you know, the energy transition is happening, and there are many various advances which are happening in the sustainability area.
08:29So there will be new sectors, new things which will get developed. So there will be a higher amount of professionals who would be required.
08:36Let me give you a classic case. Just before the Glasgow Climate Conference, the COP, UK came out with a subsidy program for improving the efficiencies in the houses, like bettering the insulations and all those things.
08:54The number of applications was so high that they didn't have enough competent people to deliver it.
09:01So they had to cancel that.
09:03So what I'm trying to say here is that these kinds of requirements, when it comes, we do not have enough people.
09:09So there will be like, for example, water, wastewater management. Going forward, there is going to be high demand on those areas.
09:17So we will, the second segment, what I would say is that there will be higher demand for professionals in certain segments, which is something which would happen as we go by.
09:28The third one, which I would say is more of an integrators role.
09:33Okay.
09:34You know, people who are more on the policy administration or strategy, they will have to kind of bring in a thought process of integrating many things to move, whether it is a project or whether it is an enterprise or whether it is a country to move into a sustainable economy.
09:54So there is a role of that integrators who will come in.
09:59So these would be the three dimensions of competence of skills, which would be required going forward.
10:07Interesting.
10:08You know, interesting, you mentioned the skill aspect of the green jobs economy, if I can call it.
10:15You know, do we have enough number of skilled workers in India in the in the green space?
10:23What is your sense?
10:24And is there a gap that you find that needs to be plugged?
10:29Definitely.
10:30Yes.
10:31But again, I would go back to what I said is that I do not know when we say what is a green job.
10:39But having, you know, what I said earlier was that there is a need for everyone to integrate sustainability as part of that.
10:50So for example, let me give you India has, what is it, about 37 skill councils.
10:56These 37 skill councils, let me give you an example.
11:01We have some automobile skill council or let's say BFSI skill council, IT skill council, agricultural
11:09skill council.
11:10Now think about it, each of these skills, which is getting developed, they will have to integrate
11:17sustainability.
11:18So let me take a case of BFSI.
11:21Now this year in the budget, our finance minister Siddharaman announced that there is going to
11:28be a climate change taxonomy, which is going to come.
11:31Absolutely.
11:32Now the moment a taxonomy comes in, which means that it is what it is trying to do is it is
11:39going to look into how the finance sector is going to align with those taxonomy.
11:44How much finance is going into a particular direction is what is going to be monitored as part of the taxonomy.
11:53Definitely the BFSI has to integrate this.
11:57So when we are talking about developing BFSI skill, which means that you will have to integrate this as part of it.
12:04Or for example, an automobile skill council with the momentum, which is happening around the EV.
12:11Definitely the automobile skill council is already doing their best to move into that.
12:16Just look at the skill requirement of a roadside mechanic.
12:19That would change.
12:21Absolutely.
12:22So there need to be an upskilling of many people, which would happen.
12:27Plus what would happen is also some sectors naturally will have a downturn and some sectors will have an upswing.
12:40And for example, in India, renewable energy has been kind of moving pretty up.
12:48I don't think we have any coal fired boilers or any of those which has been announced or coming.
12:54Right.
12:55So you can naturally see the kind of upswing of a particular sector and the downswing of the others.
13:01What it does is also that it puts a challenge to those people who are skilled in a particular segment.
13:08And that's where globally there is this terminology, what we say as just transition.
13:13Yeah.
13:14Right.
13:15And the transition model we do has to be in a manner which is just socially.
13:22And for that, there is a huge amount of upskilling, which is required in those segments.
13:29And for example, new dimensions of hydrogen coming in will require a different skill set or an
13:38updation of the existing skill set to move in that direction.
13:42What it does is these skill councils will have to now look at how do we do that just transition as well.
13:48Okay.
13:49Yeah.
13:50You know, what about the traditional sectors, agriculture, construction, manufacturing?
13:55I know you would have captured some of the manufacturing aspects here, but agriculture and construction,
14:00you know, it's a lot of unskilled and semi-skilled workers who are there.
14:05Do you see a transition for them happening?
14:08Do you see job opportunities coming up in that space?
14:11The whole of the agricultural segment will also kind of change as we are already seeing.
14:18Because we are going through an era where there is a lot of challenges in terms of whether it is water or soil quality and all those things.
14:28And also the choice of crops and add to that the challenges from climate change.
14:35Yeah.
14:36That's right.
14:37The risk from climate change towards agriculture.
14:39So what happens with all these challenges now coming in, some of the traditional practices will be challenged.
14:47And that requires the stakeholders, whether it is the farmer or whether it is the institutions who work around it, have to kind of change.
14:58I know there are quite a number of research organizations in India who are looking into climate resilient agriculture.
15:05They are even developing crops which are more resistant.
15:10And of course, on the water management side, there is quite a bit of work which is happening on that side.
15:15But adoption of all these things will require a change of mindset, of course, and also upskilling.
15:26Okay.
15:27I know there has been efforts from state governments as well as from the central governments on this regard.
15:34But whether if you ask me whether the pace of which is good enough, I should say, yes, the pace can be better.
15:41And we need to kind of move at a faster pace in those directions because some of those impacts have started precipitating.
15:49So we don't have the time to kind of adjust to that.
15:53So you talked about agriculture.
15:54Yeah.
15:55Yeah.
15:56The other one is manufacturing.
15:57Manufacturing, for example, already some of the top sectors are coming under scrutiny because of various geopolitical as well as climate related regulations which are evolving around the world.
16:15Right.
16:16So the so-called hard to abate sector definitely is a challenge with, for example, there is a whole lot of discussion in India about CBAM, carbon border adjustment mechanism.
16:28So that what happens is that some of these sectors will have to move faster as part of their business continuity.
16:37And that really is something which some of the industry leaders know about it and they are working towards it.
16:45But what it also requires is as India, we need to kind of look at this as an opportunity because this journey towards a sustainable economy has created what I will call as a level playing field.
17:02Okay.
17:03If you look across the globe, nobody has cracked the code.
17:06Right.
17:07So whomsoever cracks the code are going to be the next leaders.
17:12So there is a need for us to put in our efforts and resources for some deep tech research.
17:21Okay.
17:22And that deep tech research is required or will be important for us to take a lead.
17:31And that is an area where I have not seen still action.
17:36And that's where I would kind of say that we will have to focus more whether it is private sector or whether it is from the government, whether it is from academy as well.
17:45Deep tech research in some of these dimensions will really help us to lead the way.
17:51Interesting.
17:52You know, coming from mindset change and especially for professionals or young people who want to have a career in sustainability.
18:01What would be your advice be for starters say for example, people who are starting out and they want to have a career in sustainability.
18:08What would be the key issues they should look at?
18:11I don't think it will be quite different to any other advice people usually give to the young ministers.
18:19I would also say follow your passion.
18:22Right.
18:23Because anything which you do, I would only say that integrate the sustainability principles.
18:32Okay.
18:33It's more like ethics.
18:35Right.
18:36So even if you are following a particular passion, you need to be ethical.
18:41Absolutely.
18:42So it's as similar as that.
18:45Right.
18:46I always relate sustainability to what happened with quality in the 90s.
18:5490s quality was a big word.
18:57Yeah.
18:58A whole set of standards coming in.
19:00Quality council.
19:01Yeah.
19:02Yeah.
19:03The quality councils.
19:04Then if you look at the industry, you had a quality control, quality assurance, different departments.
19:09Right.
19:10But today when you look back, you won't see those because quality got integrated to everything.
19:16What you do.
19:17And today quality is being taught in any stream of things as well.
19:23So the advice would be that you had to follow your passion.
19:30But then when you are following that passion, ensure that you integrate the sustainability principles.
19:36And it's quite like or it's as similar as that you had to follow the ethics.
19:42You know, I'm pretty sure you'd be getting a lot of requests from people in mid-career stage, you know, who are looking at exploring a career in sustainability.
19:52You know, how do you sort of go about advising them?
19:56Yeah, it's a kind of a common question which I get on a regular basis.
20:01Okay.
20:02Right.
20:03I have had questions from, for example, finance professionals who come to me and say that I've been 15 years in this profession and I have now a deep interest in sustainability.
20:15So how do I switch careers?
20:16And my advice would be that why would you put all those 15 years of your experience in risk?
20:26The way is that there is quite a bit of movement which is happening around, for example, sustainable finance.
20:34And you are the best person, if you are a finance professional, you are the best person to lead that.
20:40Okay.
20:41So just upskill yourself on some of the periphery of your core competence.
20:47So if you are a finance professional, upskill yourself around some of the sustainability areas in your profession.
20:54And that makes you unique and that helps in terms of the movement.
21:01That also helps in kind of integrating the thought of sustainability into an everyday life, everyday job.
21:09So my advice to the mid-career professionals is that don't put at risk all the experiences which you have gathered.
21:18For example, whether it is a procurement professional.
21:21I mean, you have to integrate sustainability as part of your value chain propositions.
21:28We just had yesterday the amendments which came for the new BRSR regulations from SEBI, which had changed some requirements for value chain sustainability reporting.
21:40So naturally the procurement professional also have to kind of get on board in terms of how the value chain performs in terms of sustainability and all those things.
21:51So they will have to update themselves in terms of how they integrate sustainability into the procurement process.
22:02So likewise, you take any of those provisions, you really will have to kind of look at this is a must.
22:11I would say that I always relate this to surfing.
22:17So in surfing, what happens is that if you catch the wave early, you can surf long distance and smooth.
22:26Yes.
22:27In any case, the wave will take you to shore.
22:32It's your choice whether you want to surf long and smooth or you want to come to the shore tumbling and rolling.
22:39In any case, you will be kind of brought to the shore.
22:42Absolutely.
22:43Right.
22:44So it's up to each one of these professionals to kind of look at that this is a must going forward.
22:50So how do you upskill yourself and get ready towards that?
22:54So upskilling, reskilling is something that's given.
22:58Exactly.
22:59If you have to be a sustainability related professional.
23:02You will have to be a sustainability related professional going forward.
23:06There is no choice.
23:07Okay.
23:08You know, the whole world is moving in that particular direction.
23:13Of course, there can be some noises here and there for some time, which will keep on kind of repeating what the old times sake they will keep repeating.
23:26But I should say that there is only one direction this will go.
23:30I was curious by one statement you made in one of your podcasts, you know, and that statement stuck with me.
23:36You know, it said tomorrow's CEOs cannot be CEOs without understanding sustainability.
23:40Now, take us through that, you know, what is it that would be CEOs would be requiring to do so they are able to get that dream job given this current landscape.
23:52Okay, let me take it a little more philosophical first and then I will come back to it.
23:58Sure.
23:59I'm sure you might have read the Sapiens from Harari.
24:09In Sapiens, the book, the first print, the cover page was that but later on prints, it was the first picture which was showed is a handprint in a cave.
24:23Yes.
24:24I remember.
24:25Yes.
24:26That was the cover.
24:27It's prehistoric.
24:28What was that person trying to tell?
24:33The person was trying to tell I was here.
24:36Yes.
24:37So what I would say is that these are people, the CEOs of today, these are people who have a huge influence in their business, in their community, to their employees.
24:52These are people who have to decide as to what kind of handprint they leave as their legacy.
25:02Because they are at the cusp of things right now to change many things.
25:06And it's up to them as to what kind of handprint they want to leave.
25:12And it's also going to determine as to the decisions which they make, how that organization is going to survive the next 50 years or next 100 years.
25:28Right.
25:29So from that matter, each one of these people, they really need to understand as to how sustainability will influence their business.
25:39So let me kind of articulate it through an example.
25:43Sure.
25:44In 2015, in Paris, when the COP happened and they extended over, suddenly we came out with a Paris Agreement.
25:56To limit the world's temperature to less than 2 degrees.
26:01Of course, later on it changed to 1.5 degrees.
26:04At that time, how many CEOs thought that it would impact their business?
26:11It went as if, yeah, there was a declaration, good for the environment and it was, you know, people from various countries, the leaders of the countries participated, they agreed.
26:26And not many CEOs understood the impact of that.
26:31But come today, if you really look at how things are spanned, you can really see the kind of impact.
26:38Almost 10 years.
26:39Yeah.
26:40The kind of impact it is kind of causing to the business.
26:42Right.
26:43Now we discussed about the regulations which are coming in.
26:48We discussed about the rise of renewable energy from that time onwards to now.
26:53And the decline of some of these sectors.
26:56Many business models are at risk today.
27:01So going forward as well, there will be new dimensions.
27:05Just now we had the COP around plastics, although there was not much of agreement which would happen.
27:10But, you know, things like this, which were externalities to the so-called business model, will be forced to be internalized.
27:22And this is something as part of their risk and opportunity management, the CEOs will have to factor in, in their business models.
27:31So that's a very critical, you know, time in which they are operating that it has to be kind of looked at.
27:44There has to be investments made.
27:45There has to be resources allocated to move in that particular direction.
27:50And that's the role of today's CEO.
27:52And for the future CEOs to continue with that.
27:55Interesting.
27:56But is the academic world sort of aligned with that thought?
28:00I would say, you know, for tomorrow's CEOs to come, you know, be so aware of the sustainability issues.
28:07And who are right now in say business schools and say in graduation or business schools.
28:14Is the academic curriculum, the academic world, is it aligned with that thought or where are we in that space?
28:21I would say, no, we haven't kind of gone and tried to kind of change the curriculum or change the way in which we teach some of the things right now.
28:32Even today, if you go to a business school, sustainability is at best an elective.
28:39Okay.
28:40Or they will call some people to do some guest lectures.
28:44I'm pretty sure you get a lot of requests.
28:46Yes, I do.
28:47But, you know, that half an hour lecture, yes, I can inspire some of those students, but then it kind of, it's only half an hour.
29:00It's not part of their curriculum.
29:02It's not the course part of it.
29:05So it tends to fade.
29:08Rather than that, I would say that it also requires some changes in terms of very fundamental things.
29:16I just finished a book by Professor Stuart L. Hart, where he is doing quite a bit of work in kind of integrating sustainability to management studies.
29:25Okay.
29:26And he says that the current model of capitalism came in when capital was scarce or the financial capital was scarce and we thought the natural capital was in plenty.
29:43It was at an era, the current model of capitalism came.
29:48Yeah.
29:49Now we know where we are in terms of natural capital.
29:53So I think the whole of the economics will have to change.
29:58Right.
29:59I always say we, even today, we look at GDP as a measure of our progress, which came in post-World War II.
30:12That's right.
30:13And mainly when the US was looking at how to keep up their economy.
30:20And when we, you know, the bigger you buy was considered as patriotic at that time in the US.
30:30So a measure like GDP came at that particular era.
30:35And if you produce more, if you consume more and if you waste more, your GDP will increase.
30:43Very similar to what's happening right now in India.
30:45Exactly.
30:46So, you know, some of the basic fundamentals need to change and that has to come in from the academic world.
30:55Right.
30:56So, there is a big need in terms of like, for example, if you are studying for accounting or CA.
31:07Without studying natural capital accounting and social capital accounting, it's not going to help in the future.
31:14There need to be a way of bringing in those accountings into the P&L.
31:20Very interesting.
31:21So, yes, the start has to be at the higher education side.
31:27On the school side, yes, things have started.
31:32The basics of sustainability is being taught.
31:35But that's not being followed currently in the higher education system.
31:39Okay.
31:40The higher education system is still in a bit of an old era.
31:43And I think there we need to kind of integrate this.
31:47Just to give you even, for example, science or chemistry.
31:52Why should you have a separate stream called green chemistry?
31:59The whole chemistry has to be sustainable.
32:02Right.
32:03So, the way you integrate this should not be in the name of sustainability, but that's the way it should be.
32:11Right.
32:12So, I think there is a lot of work which has to be done in terms of, you know, adjusting or not, I won't say adjusting, reinventing the whole of the curriculum on the higher education side.
32:25I think material sciences is something which is going to see a lot of drastic changes going forward.
32:31Exactly.
32:32And some of these dimensions did not get the desired level of interest in the earlier times.
32:40But today it is getting and it is, as I will go back to what I said, it's an opportunity.
32:47And as India, if we are able to kind of do this at the earliest, we definitely will have a longer way to go.
32:57So, what would be your advice to would-be CEOs, you know, who are currently in, how should they prepare themselves?
33:03You know, if the educational, higher education institutions are not yet ready, but they need to be ready, how should they prepare themselves for this?
33:13So, see, the key is to, I mean, any leader, we always say that empathy is a key quality of a leader.
33:24Right.
33:25So, I think the principles are the same in terms of leadership, but how do you apply it is something very critical.
33:34The challenge is that today we are driven by some market dynamics, like for example, quarterly progress.
33:47Now, naturally, as a CEO, you are under pressure.
33:50Absolutely.
33:51You have to show that quarterly improvement.
33:54So, and there has been CEOs in the past who said that, no, I'm not interested in this quarterly thing.
33:59I'm here for a long term.
34:01And those CEOs have been successful as well, you know.
34:05So, I think the need for the people to prepare to go into that position and drive that,
34:13is to understand that there is a higher degree of responsibility of them, not just to the shareholders, but to other stakeholders as well.
34:27So, I think the overall thought process is today more concentrated, whether it is the education, whether it is your preparation, whether you are doing the current job, the overall concentration is on a shareholder primacy agenda.
34:44And that shareholder primacy agenda is kind of taking us away from the whole sustainability agenda, which is the planet agenda.
34:54The planet agenda plus people agenda.
34:57Exactly.
34:58Right.
34:59See, I would bring you back to say that when we say planet agenda, whether it is 1.5 degree,
35:08whether it is 2 degree, whether it is 10 degree rise in temperature, the planet will survive.
35:13People will not.
35:14There will be new species.
35:15What is at risk is for the so-called homo sapiens.
35:16Yes.
35:17And by the way, Harari says that book very clearly says that the exact translation of homo sapiens in English is wise man or wise being.
35:38Right.
35:39So, I think being sustainability wise would be the right way for all of the people who are inspiring to be the CEOs to do it.
35:53You know, coming back to the job numbers, you know, and when we were doing some research, we found that I think last year, you also mentioned to it, mentioned about it in terms of the energy transition space.
36:05You know, that has been the biggest generator of sustainability related jobs or green jobs, if you may call that.
36:12You know, I think around 16.2 million jobs were created last year.
36:18India itself had more than 1 million jobs in that space.
36:21ESG, which is environment social governance, you know, those jobs have been in use for the last few years.
36:28What is your take on the space? How is going to evolve going forward?
36:32See, when you say there were jobs created, I would say is that there was either a stagnation or a kind of a lesser this thing in some other segments as well.
36:46Okay.
36:47Of course, there are new sectors which evolve and which bring in new jobs as well.
36:52Yeah.
36:53But the total number for me, we will have to kind of normalize it.
36:59Okay.
37:00This thing.
37:01But as I mentioned, yes, renewable energy is going high.
37:05So, but then, as I told you, we don't have any new thermal power plants coming in, right?
37:10So, there is, and that value chain, if you really look at the companies who are making boilers, companies who are making those equipments for the thermal, there, there is a stagnation or there is a thing happening.
37:24So, the new jobs would definitely evolve and you will really require people like, for example, there will be a dimension, we are talking about solar right now.
37:37There can be other dimensions like, for example, India is betting big on hydrogen and that definitely is going to bring in a new dimension.
37:47We are also talking about restructuring the grid, micro grids, for example, going to be something in the energy sector, which is going forward, we going to be critical.
37:59And so, all these new dimensions will add new jobs.
38:06But I would caution that there are the existing sectors or the so-called conventional sectors, which we are used to earlier, which will find a stagnation.
38:19And those things we need to look at how do we do that just transition.
38:24You know, coming to some of the, you know, there are a lot of myths around jobs, green jobs.
38:32Yeah. So, also sustainability related jobs, you know.
38:36So, what are your top five myths or misconceptions that you feel you'd like to flag off related, you know, sustainability jobs or green jobs?
38:46And which you've come across and as a, I'm pretty sure as a professor, as a teacher, you would be coming across them on a daily basis.
38:55Myths you might like to burst.
38:58Yeah. I mean, myths, actually myths have helped people to come together. Let me bring it. So, myths are not always bad.
39:08Okay.
39:09Okay. So, if you really look at, you know, there are many myths, especially, for example, many religious myths, have always helped in congregation, people having the same thoughts and that has kept the people together.
39:21So, there are many good things about myths. But to answer to your question, yes, there are myths we need to burst as well. And maybe I can talk about some of them.
39:33The first one I just talked about is the myth that all these things about is protecting nature.
39:42Okay.
39:43Because even today, I see many people making these presentations with a globe in the hand.
39:52When they talk about sustainability, they talk about the globe in the hand and say protecting the nature. It's not about protecting the nature.
40:00Nature will find its way.
40:02Yeah. Nature will find its way. It is protecting the human species. There is a more selfish motive to all this. Right. So, I think that's the first myth. It's not about protecting nature. And we are nobody to protect nature.
40:17We saw that during Covid, I think. Some glimpses of it.
40:20Exactly. So, that way it is about protecting us. So, there is a selfish thing. So, I think that's the first myth I should say that we should break.
40:33The second myth, which I am seeing it quite a bit, especially in the social media and especially in platforms like LinkedIn, is that every resume should have ESG.
40:45Okay. It's kind of, you know, I don't know from where it comes in. But today, if you really see, you will find almost every resume saying that they are working in the ESG space or I've interviewed even people who are experts in ESG.
41:06And I have written about it as well. And there was one interview which I conducted where I asked this person, okay, you say you are an expert in ESG. So, I just asked him, what is IUCN?
41:20And that person came back and said, what has it got to do with ESG? Okay. Then I left that and I moved on with other things like how do you do, for example, greenhouse gas accounting?
41:34He said, I am not a climate change expert. I am an ESG expert. Okay. You know, or what is a modern slavery act? No, I am not a social expert. I am an ESG expert.
41:48Now, I really do not know if you do not know E, if you do not know ES, if you do not know G, how are you an ESG professional? So, that is something which I am seeing. And I do not know what prompts people to kind of put this. But I think, I don't think every resume needs that.
42:04Okay. And sometimes if you put that in the ESG, just like the interview I had, you will be exposed. So, I think I need to burst that with also. Absolutely.
42:25The third one would be with the complexities of the regulations which are happening around sustainability reporting. Today, there is a myth that the whole of the role of a sustainability professional is about reporting. Okay.
42:44So, there is a general thought process which is evolving. And to some extent, I should say that even the sustainability professionals are also behaving in that manner, as a grand excuse to do nothing else but reporting. Multiple reporting requirements definitely takes time. But, you know, it's much, much beyond reporting.
43:13So, sustainability professional means it is not just about sustainability reporting. So, that's the other one. Then, of course, there is this tunneled view around climate change.
43:28Okay. Sustainability is all about climate change. Absolutely.
43:32No, it's not. Yes, it is one of the biggest threats that as a human race we are facing and there has to be a lot of work around that. It's a global agenda. And hence, it gets a global appeal.
43:48But for example, in India, we are going to face a huge crisis in terms of freshwater. Right. So, I think some of those local sustainability challenges get a bit less attention.
44:09Diffused, I would say. Diffused in the name of climate change. So, I think sustainability is not just climate change. So, let's look at that. The last but not the least I would say is mainly, I mean, in the current global order of a kind of a very highly polarized political lines.
44:34Today, the moment you speak about sustainability, you are left oriented. Now, when I say that I should also qualify that I am not, I mean, coming from Kerala, I should also say that I do not believe left is real bad. No.
44:55No. You know, the, the, but the compartmentalization or, you know, saying that the moment you speak sustainability, that you are left oriented is something which we are seeing in the current global order.
45:13Are you referring to what some of Mr. Trump's speeches?
45:17I mean, yes, that's not, I mean, the whole of the Republicans that way and the way in which they have been putting pressure in terms of the various funds and all those things has been in that particular, you know, way of thinking.
45:34But it's also spreading to other parts as well. So, when we talk about sustainability, we are not against growth, but we are in support of sustainable growth.
45:46The way in which we have grown have resulted in the current challenges. Absolutely.
45:52So, the, the, the questions which are being asked is more about, don't we have another way of development, which can sustain our children, our grandchildren, that's the question.
46:07So, it's not about a left mentality over here. So, that is another dimension, which I think, I wouldn't say it's a myth, but yeah, I mean, the way in which the current thought process is something like that.
46:19Yeah, absolutely. I think we've seen that in the last presidential elections, it was widely debated and reported, you know, interesting.
46:31Thank you, Mr. Jairam, for your insights and the fact that, you know, you could sort of take us through the journey.
46:37And your journey, of course, has been a story in itself. So, I'm really glad that we could spend time with each other, you know, and the fact that, you know, we could share your thoughts and your insights.
46:49Oh, thank you very much for inviting me and giving me an opportunity to share some of my thoughts. And hopefully I did justice to that.
46:59Absolutely. Absolutely. Thank you. Thank you very much.