T Koshy, MD & Chief Executive Officer at Open Network for Digital Commerce (ONDC), is spearheading the government-backed initiative to make digital commerce interoperable in India.
In an insightful conversation with Deepsekhar Choudhury of Outlook Business, the ONDC chief talks about the threat of monopolistic platforms to India's surging digital economy.
In an insightful conversation with Deepsekhar Choudhury of Outlook Business, the ONDC chief talks about the threat of monopolistic platforms to India's surging digital economy.
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00:00:00In the last 20-25 years, the world had been trained in shape-to-think platform.
00:00:05One entity will set up a central system.
00:00:07They will onboard different sellers, make their catalog visible in that platform.
00:00:12And they will tell the consumers, if you want to buy anything from these sellers,
00:00:16I will give you a front-end application.
00:00:18You come there and then buy.
00:00:20Every entity will have certain target consumers.
00:00:24What ONDC has done is that ONDC created a protocol.
00:00:27If a seller makes itself visible in the network,
00:00:31any buyer-facing interface will be able to discover.
00:00:34All these buying applications can, on behalf of their consumers, discover the product relevance.
00:00:40So that is the whole idea of unbundling and interoperability.
00:00:43Hello and welcome to the Escape Velocity podcast by Outlook Business,
00:00:59where we talk to the movers, shakers, thinkers and doers of the tech and startup ecosystem.
00:01:04Today we have with us Mr. T. Koshi, the CEO and Managing Director of ONDC,
00:01:10Open Network for Digital Commerce.
00:01:12If you have done digital payments, if you have traded stocks on the internet,
00:01:17Mr. Koshi has already touched your life.
00:01:20Now he has bigger ambitions.
00:01:22Let's hear from the man himself.
00:01:24How are you, Koshi?
00:01:25Welcome to the Outlook Business Escape Velocity podcast.
00:01:29Thank you, Deepshagar.
00:01:30It's nice to be here with you.
00:01:31And I am very keen to listen to what you want to ask.
00:01:34So how have you been?
00:01:35I've been doing fine.
00:01:36We had an excellent run.
00:01:38Like as you know, Open Network for Digital Commerce is the first time in the world experiment that is being done in India.
00:01:45So that way, instead of trying to be a follower, India is being a leader.
00:01:50And there in the last couple of years since we started, we are very happy about the traction that is developing.
00:01:56But we know it's just a start.
00:01:57It's just a beginning.
00:01:58We have a long way to go.
00:01:59But we are very happy about where we have reached till now.
00:02:02And we are very confident about where we are going to go forward.
00:02:04I think you guys started around 2021, around December, January, December, 2020 or January, 2021?
00:02:12No, December 31st, 2021.
00:02:16The company was registered.
00:02:17I joined as a formerly as a member of the team in February and my team joined in April.
00:02:22So what we did is initially in end of April, we got some sellers through a seller application and some buyers brought by one buyer application, Paytm, to do some very close group kind of testing.
00:02:36You see that there's an idea that works.
00:02:38The whole idea of unbundled architecture that it will work.
00:02:42And during the year, we did the testing and end of the year 2022 is when we started making ourselves public and say that, hey, in Bangalore to some network participants and through some pin codes, we said that public at large can check it out.
00:02:59And that was all available only in few pin codes.
00:03:01And there were only few sellers and few seller MP.
00:03:04And the whole of January of 2023, when we first made ourselves public, we did about 1,200 transactions with a few hundred sellers.
00:03:13That's where we started.
00:03:15And now in the last two years, like in December of 2024, we did 15 million transactions plus.
00:03:23So we started with grocery and food.
00:03:26And then over a period of time, we added like mobility, we added fashion, beauty and personal care, home decor, electronics.
00:03:33And one by one, we were enabling.
00:03:36Because as I said, the idea of an unbundled open network is not derivative of the world.
00:03:42So we had to figure out the protocols to be refined for that, as well as to help the sellers understand this new concept and be ready to, you know, participate.
00:03:54Because till now, the whole world had been tuned and trained and shaped to think only platform.
00:04:02I'll interrupt you once here.
00:04:04Because when we talk about ONDC, the person on the street, you know, will ask, what is the ONDC app?
00:04:11I think that is a question that you encountered a lot.
00:04:14Or what is the ONDC platform?
00:04:17So can you explain to our viewers a bit about what really is ONDC?
00:04:20Is it like Amazon, Flipkart, Swiggy, Zomato?
00:04:23Or is it something different?
00:04:24I understand this confusion.
00:04:26Because in the last 20-25 years, the world had been trained and shaped to think platform.
00:04:33So what does a platform mean?
00:04:35Is that one entity will set up a central system.
00:04:39They will onboard different sellers onto that platform.
00:04:44Make their catalog visible in that platform.
00:04:47And they will tell the consumers, if you want to buy anything from these sellers, I will give you a front-end application.
00:04:55You come there and then buy.
00:04:59So what a platform means is that there are some sellers in the platform, some buyers in the platform.
00:05:04They can only transact with each other.
00:05:07But Deepshaker, if you really think, that's not how we were trained to think in internet.
00:05:11I am sure that before commerce came, you know, we started using internet, worldwide web.
00:05:19And how did it happen?
00:05:22In the worldwide web, you will use either Chrome, either Edge today, or Safari, or Firefox, or Internet Explorer.
00:05:32In fact, good old days when it started, it was Netscape.
00:05:35Yes.
00:05:35So it was internet.
00:05:37Different browsers came and told that you use any of the browsers, and the browser will help you to discover any website that is there.
00:05:48So when you were making your website, you did not make one for Internet Explorer, one for Netscape, one for Lynx, or one.
00:05:58You just made a website using HTTP as a protocol.
00:06:02And you hosted on the net.
00:06:06Since you used this protocol, different browsers could come and discover.
00:06:13Yes.
00:06:13If you remember, I chatted only with Netscape.
00:06:15Yes.
00:06:15Then came Internet Explorer.
00:06:17Yes.
00:06:17In fact, Chrome came much later.
00:06:19Yes.
00:06:19So what they all familiarized with the idea that you can use any browser, see the same site.
00:06:26That's how Internet evolved.
00:06:29If you look at even in your email, you can use Gmail.
00:06:33Yes.
00:06:34You can use Yahoo Mail.
00:06:35You can use Outlook Mail.
00:06:38You can use any of them.
00:06:39I can also use any of them.
00:06:41I don't have to be in Gmail to get a message from you.
00:06:45If you are in Gmail, you are in Gmail.
00:06:48Yes.
00:06:48You don't have to, if I am in Outlook Explorer, you don't have to be in Outlook Explorer.
00:06:54Yeah.
00:06:54What makes it possible is the idea of interoperability.
00:06:58The protocol, an open protocol, allow different providers of information to be seen by different browsers.
00:07:06Different email servers to talk to a different email server.
00:07:09Yes.
00:07:09But when it came to commerce, it was very different.
00:07:12If you are a supplier in one platform, you are visible only to the consumers in that platform.
00:07:20So now look at the pain for the seller and the buyer.
00:07:24If you are a seller, if you can join in one platform, you are visible to all the buyers.
00:07:30So join means what?
00:07:31You have to have a contract.
00:07:32You have to have your all conditions, terms and conditions agreed with that platform.
00:07:36You have to do a technical integration.
00:07:40You have to arrange for whatever is a packaging and distribution, all arrangement.
00:07:45But they have a certain set of consumers.
00:07:47See, every entity will have certain target consumers.
00:07:52I don't think they will make for everything to everybody.
00:07:54Any platform, look at this.
00:07:56Any platform, if you look at whether it is the, any buyer application, I don't want to give any names.
00:08:00They have a certain customer segment.
00:08:02And that customer segment, they will address and they will make the visibility, everything, convene into that customer segment.
00:08:12So the seller will also be there.
00:08:15Similarly, supposing that seller wants to be there in some other platform who has got a different set of consumers.
00:08:21He will have to do all this thing all over again.
00:08:23So at the end of it, how many times will you have to do it?
00:08:26Similarly, for the buyers, if you go to one buyer application, he has a certain set of sellers.
00:08:31If you go to another buyer application, certain set of sellers.
00:08:34If you want to be both, you have to do it both.
00:08:36So what ONDC has done is that ONDC created a protocol.
00:08:43If I use the HTTP of commerce, which says that if a seller make itself visible in the network using this protocol,
00:08:54any buyer facing interface will be able to discover.
00:08:59Just like we saw Chrome and Internet Explorer and its game coming develop, nobody knew.
00:09:05So when it started, I am sure that you remember you used one.
00:09:08Somebody said, hey, this is a good one.
00:09:10So similarly, different buying applications in the ONDC world has come.
00:09:16For example, Paytm is a buying application.
00:09:18Ola is a buying application.
00:09:20Mystore is a buying application.
00:09:22Bajaj is a buying application.
00:09:23In fact, to sort of help a lot of people to say, hey, does ONDC also have a buying application?
00:09:29In fact, we recently launched one called DigiHeart.
00:09:31It is just getting bubbly.
00:09:33But that is not in competition with others.
00:09:35That is a cooperation with others.
00:09:37All this buying application can, on behalf of their consumers, discover the product relevant.
00:09:43So that is the whole idea of unbundling and interoperability.
00:09:46So does it mean that you are envisaging a future where if I go to, say, a platform like Amazon,
00:09:54then I can see the sellers on Zomato or Swiggy, which are restaurants, which are generally not on Amazon.
00:10:01Or if I go to Zomato and Swiggy, then I can see the sellers on Amazon who sell clothes or jewelry.
00:10:09So you are saying that is the future that you envisage for e-commerce.
00:10:14That is a possibility.
00:10:16Okay.
00:10:16It says that if the buyer application maintained by anybody makes it ONDC protocol compliant,
00:10:24they will be able to see any products in the network.
00:10:28Similarly, if the seller application makes themselves visible, they will be visible to all buyer application.
00:10:35Whether the established players will immediately do it is a question.
00:10:39The established players, on the long run, in my imagination, they may think that it is a part of this network.
00:10:45Or they may decide to say that I would like to be a, you know, for a specific set of sellers and specific set of buyers, we are planning in the niche operators.
00:10:53For example, like if you look at the payment system, like the AMEX strategy is different from VISA strategy, which is different from UPI strategy.
00:11:02Correct.
00:11:03You know, some of them are accepting UPI, some of them are not enabling.
00:11:06So this is how it will, it will grow.
00:11:08So on, it is, whether it is possible, yes, so long as you make it ONDC protocol compliant.
00:11:14But I want to understand why is it important that, that this can happen, this can become interoperable, you can go to a platform and see the sellers on all other platforms, that I understand, but why is it important for India's e-commerce to become interoperable?
00:11:36What is the reason?
00:11:37What if it's not interoperable and platforms operate by themselves?
00:11:42What is the problem with that?
00:11:43There are multiple advantages of being interoperable.
00:11:47Let's try to look from the seller side, then we can look from the buyer side.
00:11:51If you look at the current platform centric world, take any domain, let's say consumer products, food, ride hailing, ticket booking, in each of them, you will see only one or two platforms.
00:12:03The reason is, since they are closed platform, any entity which creates a certain volume of buyers and sellers will have a very advantageous position because of the network effect of a closed network.
00:12:19So, that's why there will be only two or three entities in any place.
00:12:26In fact, what is the challenge of such two or three entities concentrating in multiple places?
00:12:32It's not a problem only in India, it's a problem globally.
00:12:35In fact, probably, Deepshagar, you might have seen, even the developed countries are struggling with this challenge.
00:12:41Yes.
00:12:42For example, American economy had the same challenge of few enterprises having the dominant share.
00:12:49And you know that Biden has come out with, you know, that person heading the Federal Trade Commission, FTC, you know.
00:12:56And they are together trying to create a regulatory approach to remove this market concentration and associated practices, especially like self-preferencing and so on and so forth, which is against the interest of the industry at large.
00:13:09In fact, the studies have shown, published study by prominent, you know, the universities in the world, even in US itself, which says that when there is too much of concentration, it suppresses innovation.
00:13:23It reduces competition, because innovation, it's not that they are very innovative, but for their segment of users.
00:13:32And it is putting enormous pressure on small business and especially some of the practices like self-preferencing, which means that the platform who has all the data with respect to who is buying, what is selling and so on and so forth, they make many of the sellers irrelevant to the market.
00:13:50Either because they are not giving sufficient information or based on the superior information they have, they are bringing alternate suppliers, which are under their control.
00:14:00For example, can you explain this?
00:14:01For example, let's say if you go to one of the criticism that you saw in the in the developed market, is that one of platforms say that, okay, this product is selling well.
00:14:09Okay, I tell one of my group companies to make the product in India, while it is legally not allowed, but influencing such controls is not a difficult thing.
00:14:17So, this is why probably you would have seen the competition commission, the parliamentary committee's study on e-commerce came out many of these issues.
00:14:28Because they have some specialized preferences for some sellers, either drive or shape the consumers towards that product.
00:14:37It means that consumers' option itself is getting limited or having some special deal with them, which is against the interest of any competing product.
00:14:46Because the central entity has all the information, all the access to the buyers, and the sellers are only left to follow the guidelines of terms and conditions, payment, advertising, marketing, commissions.
00:15:00Whereas, when there are, if you look at the physical world, Deepshake, how does the physical world work?
00:15:05There are, you will see Infinity Mall, and you will see Paligabasa, and you will see Sarojini Market.
00:15:10Yes.
00:15:11Some products sell everywhere.
00:15:12Yes.
00:15:13Some products, specialized products sell only in, let's say, Infinity Mall.
00:15:17Some mass products available only in Paligabasa.
00:15:21That is how the market, the true market works by perfect competition, with various entities, like sellers, developing products for certain segments of buyers, and using those channels which are relevant to them.
00:15:35And each of the channels, they can decide on the policy.
00:15:38Today, as a seller, can you, if you are a seller, can you decide the policy on how you are going to market in, let's say, if you are a restaurant?
00:15:46Can you decide your exposure strategy in Swiggy and Somato?
00:15:49They will tell you your strategy.
00:15:51Same way if you do own any other application.
00:15:54Whereas, that's your…
00:15:55Strategy in terms of my pricing or…
00:15:56Your pricing, your promotion, where will be seen on the buy site, what is the time of delivery, who is the delivery entity that is being used, what is the delivery…
00:16:09I mean, everything is done significantly, you know, decided.
00:16:12Probably, sometimes, I am not saying any specific, there could be even, because there are only one or two dominant players.
00:16:19They have a dominant control in terms of data.
00:16:22Dominant in terms of pricing.
00:16:23For example, somebody can say that, Vipshagar, you should give me the best price.
00:16:28If you don't give me the price, if you give anybody else a better price, I will kick you out of my marketplace.
00:16:34It becomes possible.
00:16:35So, see, whenever there is concentration of few large players in any business, not just digital commerce, it happens even in physical commerce.
00:16:45If that happens, it will end up being not in the best industry of the industry at large.
00:16:53That's why, if you look at, everywhere when they felt, even developed countries, even hundreds of years ago, why did Sherman Act come to, in US?
00:17:03Because of market concentration of, well, lab.
00:17:06And there were few enterprises who practically had a stranglehold on the economy.
00:17:11They felt that that kind of a stranglehold is against the best interest.
00:17:15Specifically, small business dies.
00:17:17Then the study showed that a lot of small business globally has died because of this conservation.
00:17:23Small studies have shown that even big businesses losing their market control and their margins.
00:17:29Eventually, the enterprises, only when there are few enterprises, any segment in any, not just digital commerce,
00:17:36will be at the, not at the best interest of suppliers as well as demand.
00:17:42That's why interoperability becomes very, very critical.
00:17:46So, it means there could be multiple buyer applications.
00:17:49For example, I will just give you.
00:17:51Today, whatever said and done, while you and all of us might be using heavy uses of e-commerce, what is e-commerce pronunciation?
00:17:58Seven to eight percent?
00:17:59In India.
00:18:00In India.
00:18:01Some places, it's a little more.
00:18:02In India, it's seven to eight.
00:18:03That's on the buy side.
00:18:04In sell side, two to three percent.
00:18:07I mean, even if I am running that organization, I will do the same thing.
00:18:10Let's be very clear.
00:18:11Okay.
00:18:12Because I have a set of shareholders.
00:18:14I identify what is the most promising buyer segment there.
00:18:20I will see what are the best thing to offer.
00:18:23And I will go and choose those things, put it there.
00:18:26Correct?
00:18:27And then I will make it and I will make the whole policies for them.
00:18:30Like for example, if I am going to set up competition to infinity in all a new model, let's say in Saket.
00:18:36If I am meaning to meet the requirement of the affluent class, I will make the whole thing that way.
00:18:42Yes.
00:18:43But the thing in the difference between the physical market and digital market, in the physical market, they cannot finally end up owning all marketplaces.
00:18:51I will give you an interesting example.
00:18:53Imagine.
00:18:54See, just do a thought experiment.
00:18:58There are different marketplaces in every part of the country.
00:19:02Imagine all the marketplaces in India, whether it is Lajupad Nagar or whether it is, you know, Infinity Mall, Vasanthi Guhar, I am giving the Delhi references.
00:19:14Imagine all Dutch infrastructure is owned by two large businesses.
00:19:19Yes.
00:19:20Okay.
00:19:21Then every seller is completely at the behest of those two businesses.
00:19:25Yes.
00:19:26Today the world is not like that.
00:19:28All these are owned by very, very different enterprises with very different priorities with different stuff.
00:19:34So that's why any buddy who wants to set up a shop can choose what is convenient for him.
00:19:41But in the digital world, no, there are only two people who decide how the consumer product should run.
00:19:48Two or three people who decide how the restaurant should run.
00:19:52That's why these days you see a lot of hoo-ha from the restaurant industry that they are very unhappy that now if the establishing platforms come out and directly or internally having control,
00:20:06and then they start competing with the restaurant.
00:20:09I mean, I heard the restaurant.
00:20:10I mean, as much as public information as you have, saying that, you know.
00:20:14You talk to them more so you know.
00:20:16I mean, you can look at the public information that is there.
00:20:19It says that they are feeling that their business is to be compromised.
00:20:25If I just take you an example of what happened to some of the study report of the, like US itself, very well developed.
00:20:31They said a lot of small mom and pop shop have died because of the large established players come and just kill them.
00:20:38And there again, their approach is if you sort of make a lot of competition irrelevant, then your ability to charge your price become very convenient, isn't it?
00:20:50Your market power increases.
00:20:51These are basic laws of economics.
00:20:53There are only few people.
00:20:54But till now, in e-commerce or in ride hailing or food delivery, I mean, if you and I are users, we are getting very good discounts, right?
00:21:03I mean, that is happening.
00:21:04I mean, tell me, is it anybody giving charity?
00:21:07Okay.
00:21:08Are they doing it as for charity?
00:21:10They are doing to have a market control.
00:21:12If you remember, again, if I just take you, when, I'll give you two examples.
00:21:18When ride hailing started, there was a lot of discounts that's available, no?
00:21:24Yes.
00:21:25Is it available today?
00:21:26You ask the taxi driver, are they getting the same kind of pricing?
00:21:30Similarly, go and take, you know, that is why some of the patterns and etc.
00:21:35Go and talk to many of the products.
00:21:37You will see many products, the prices, some places, you know, you will see some very key product where some prices are advanced.
00:21:43Some places, prices are more.
00:21:44You would see for many of the normal products, high frequency product, you would see.
00:21:50And there again, let's understand, nobody is going to give any charity.
00:21:56Somebody has to pay for it.
00:21:59If you have a higher market power and squeeze the sellers, seller's profitability, eventually some sellers will die out.
00:22:06So, it is not that they are giving some out of their pocket.
00:22:09But some, as a strategy, one of the strategies used by any platform anywhere, is that like we say, you know, lightheartedly says, get a large user.
00:22:20I have a lighthearted way of saying, plug the user and push the seller.
00:22:25So, once you develop a habit, and once the market is in your control, after that, the buyers will have no option but to comply with the terms and conditions.
00:22:38That's what we have seen in many places.
00:22:41Not just, like I said, if you go and check out, there are enough studies that is coming up from the most supreme universities who have done the studies.
00:22:49Even the study done by our parliamentary committee on finance, on e-commerce, saw many of these practices, including some of the practices like, you know, you would have seen whatever dark patterns or whatever they identified,
00:23:02which are unfair means of influencing the consumer.
00:23:06That's why they call it, there is nothing dark about it.
00:23:09Say that, they use a very nice word, say that unfair means are being used to compromise the interest of the buyer or the seller or both.
00:23:18But the interest of the buyer momentarily, I mean, at least when somebody is searching for a product on the internet, on some app, is to get the lowest price and the best quality, right?
00:23:29See, that's why I said, we have to think about that.
00:23:31But we have to realize what is long term that is happening.
00:23:33So, eventually, that's why in many other products, you will see the consumer is getting a larger price.
00:23:41I mean, paying a larger price than the price at the restaurants or price at, or probably some item, you will see a specific discount.
00:23:51Let's say who is making the product, the seller, the platforms are not making the product.
00:23:56So, who can reduce the price at whose cost?
00:23:59Either the seller has to compromise his margins or somebody has to throw in money and nobody throws in money out of charity.
00:24:08Yes.
00:24:09The shareholders of the platforms are not going to throw in money for charity.
00:24:12Yes.
00:24:13So, that's the way they will manage.
00:24:15And they will manage, or they can manage some, you know, market power to draw out better margin.
00:24:27Or they can kill some intermediaries.
00:24:29For example, if you are able to kill all the Kirana stores.
00:24:33Okay.
00:24:34Then that margin, you can have it.
00:24:38If you can kill all the restaurant and make your own, like for example, if you, if I am just saying, every product is being made by your facility.
00:24:48Okay.
00:24:49And that too, with no dine out facilities.
00:24:52There will be some advantage that is being given short term.
00:24:55Yeah.
00:24:56But it is only for that particular segment of the buyers for that kind of buying.
00:25:00On long term, the whole idea, why did, like everywhere in the world, why is regulatory intervention is happening to prevent monopolistic processes?
00:25:13Because they know on long term, it's against the interest of the economy at large.
00:25:17Hmm.
00:25:18The developed countries are using regulatory approach.
00:25:21Hmm.
00:25:22We are using technology and market, which is more fairer way of doing.
00:25:25Hmm.
00:25:26Because what is ONDC is doing?
00:25:28It's bringing a technology framework and a network to bring competition and interoperability.
00:25:35I mean interoperability and unbundering through which you bring competition and meta option.
00:25:39It is trying to achieve the same challenge that globally facing.
00:25:42Hmm.
00:25:43Then why are they, see, for example, I said, America Innovation and Choice Online Act by the
00:25:47American government.
00:25:48Or Digital Market Access of the European Union.
00:25:51Or Digital Markets, Consumer and Competition Act of the UK.
00:25:55Why are they all coming?
00:25:57Because there is a realization by the regulators and the governments that such humongous concentration
00:26:03by few enterprises is not in the best interest of either the seller or the buyer or the country
00:26:09as a whole on long term.
00:26:10I mean that is accepted fact by all these enterprises.
00:26:13By all countries.
00:26:14All countries have realized.
00:26:15Some are using regulation.
00:26:17We are smartly using technology.
00:26:21If you look at the same, see, if you look at any business, there are two sides.
00:26:24Payment and goods and services.
00:26:28The challenge was there in both sides.
00:26:31We first linked the payment side.
00:26:33If you look at, for years we had digital payment in our country.
00:26:38I don't know when cards got introduced.
00:26:40Even when I was a small kid, cards were there.
00:26:42And it has been growing.
00:26:43Technology had been growing.
00:26:44If you look at, ballots got introduced, you know, in early 2000s and so.
00:26:51When technology grew.
00:26:52All over the world.
00:26:53But what was the speed at which the digital payments are growing in India?
00:26:593%, 5%, 7%, 10%.
00:27:01I remember the discussion that we had in 2013 or 14.
00:27:05I mean 14 plus, when the UPI started talking.
00:27:09He said, we are currently doing about 250 million digital transaction in our country.
00:27:15By the ballot guys and the card guys and all together.
00:27:18Koshi, in 3 years time, you would see it growing 250 million, going to 600 million.
00:27:23What more can you expect?
00:27:25Are you expecting that every, you know, those days there are some post machines, swiping cards
00:27:31or, you know, something, you know, even mobile payment, you know, the whole.
00:27:35I mean to say that all the sellers, small business, etc. are going to be ready to accept digital payment.
00:27:43We are India.
00:27:44We are only cash economy.
00:27:45We won't take digital money.
00:27:47It is traceable.
00:27:48They'll need a POS system there.
00:27:50They'll need digital familiarity.
00:27:51They'll need investment for POS.
00:27:53All those things were there.
00:27:55But when you change the model and the protocol became interoperable and unbundled, it changed.
00:28:02People came out with innovation.
00:28:04If you remember again, if you look at when UPI started, even NPC even put a reference application called Beam.
00:28:11And they said that that is not the only one, it can be many more.
00:28:14Different, in fact, initially used to use UPI ID.
00:28:17Then somebody said, hey, making everybody remember UPI ID is a pain.
00:28:22Like, you know, you'll find a way to standardize UPI ID.
00:28:25You'll find a way of standardizing acceptance of money using your QR code.
00:28:29It means that you don't need even a POS machine there.
00:28:32They only need a sticker of a QR code which will help to scan.
00:28:37That means even a guy sitting in the street without any worry can now stick a paper there and it will come to his account.
00:28:44How did the market react to it?
00:28:47It took some time.
00:28:48If you remember, the idea of UPI came in some 2013.
00:28:52I think programming started in 14, 14, 15.
00:28:56Finally, it's got launched in 16.
00:28:58Built up gradually and then build up its volume.
00:29:01Demand was one reason and then pandemic came other reason.
00:29:03It built up.
00:29:04Today, how many transactions we do?
00:29:0517 to 18 billion transactions a month.
00:29:08If we had stayed with the existing framework of digital transaction and left with the existing providers of those facilities, which are only banks and some, you know, card companies and one or two wallet companies, we would not have seen this kind of thing.
00:29:28Innovation came with each of the components from different segments.
00:29:31Then one of the entity who opened that like Paytm brought that box, the talking box.
00:29:38That's like a big hit.
00:29:39Now even Geo is doing the same.
00:29:41That became a big hit that helped a lot of sellers in doing their productivity also and their willingness to adoption.
00:29:47It's all made, it did not come from the existing card companies or existing big players.
00:29:53It came from one of the players and which is good.
00:29:57Others are accepting it.
00:29:58But one thing here, because you said it's, you know, it's not good to have two huge players dominating the market.
00:30:04In UPI, we see, if we see how the market consolidation has happened, it's two players who have 80% of the market.
00:30:12Finally, if you look at payment, only one SKM.
00:30:16Yes.
00:30:17Which is digital.
00:30:18Yes.
00:30:19Even there, if you look at few entities have significant market share, but they don't have the market control.
00:30:29Let's assume, let's make a theoretical model.
00:30:31One of the, let's say one is a consumer financing application.
00:30:34There are two of them, more are coming.
00:30:36Okay.
00:30:37But in the behind that, the supply is handled by all the banks and financial institutions.
00:30:42Yes.
00:30:43Only the customer interface by two or three people and more people are coming now.
00:30:48Let's, for example, one of them say that for every transaction, I am going to charge.
00:30:53Forget the legal, assume that the government says, if one of them say that for every transaction, I will charge 5 rupees.
00:31:00Then no one will do UPI.
00:31:02They will all jump to other place, right?
00:31:04Yes.
00:31:05So, it says you can, nobody will be able to have a market controlling hold on the consumers or sellers.
00:31:15The moment, that is the competition.
00:31:17Because the moment, even if they are only, now there are more.
00:31:20Let's say that if somebody, if both of them start doing, the third one can suddenly come in.
00:31:24They say, I can do it better.
00:31:25Because just, it is all interoperable.
00:31:28You don't need, for example, if I am using, let's say I am using the word Paytm.
00:31:32And you as a seller is using phone pay.
00:31:34Doesn't matter.
00:31:35If let's say these people start being unfair to their consumers.
00:31:41There will be 10 other fellows who will make this stuff.
00:31:44There is nothing, because protocol is public.
00:31:48There is nothing confidential about it.
00:31:51So, in that way, the ill effect of this concentration is limited.
00:31:57And secondly, even for the seller, same thing.
00:32:01They can, if you go to many other places, they will have multiple things.
00:32:03They will have a Paytm gas scanner and a phone picker scanner.
00:32:06It doesn't make, see the problem happens when each of them are using proprietary protocol.
00:32:12That means the network effect is encouraging concentration only in that one and exit becomes very challenging and competition becomes impossible.
00:32:24That is one.
00:32:25Now, when it comes to consumer, I mean the e-commerce side, how many SKUs are there?
00:32:32Millions.
00:32:33Millions.
00:32:34The way you buy fashion is different from the way you buy food.
00:32:39There again, you'll see a lot of specialization.
00:32:43You would see, there are some buying applications, you're focusing only on, let's say food.
00:32:47Some buying applications said, hey, let me figure out, because food has become matured, are let me figure out how food works.
00:32:53and then i'll add typical example is again ola ola was a ride-hailing application
00:33:01he initially if you remember he had tried long ago some food business and it was very painful
00:33:06for him to operating to handle both the taxi driver and the restaurant so he said i'm good
00:33:11at handling taxi drivers i am running my mobility application suddenly when ondc came hey now without
00:33:17a headache i have 100 000 restaurant on the other side i only add same food and consumer interface
00:33:24so ola becomes a food delivery app just easily easily in fact they went live in a month's time
00:33:31and then after having learned now he has added grocery also and he has already announced he's
00:33:38coming to a higher segment he said each other segment you only need few people and the consumer handling
00:33:42and one thing more that happened you know it's since we are talking about all i was just saying one of
00:33:48the innovation that happened if you look at the commerce you think like a seller let's say you're
00:33:53a restaurant you're good at making your you know deep shaker i am not good at making yeah let's assume
00:34:03that you can make your restaurant deep shaker bengali restaurant okay okay assuming that you started
00:34:09as if that you got a nice chef when you started aha you're good at making your big tea fry
00:34:16meat key fry okay i tried to use a my favorite bengali dish okay i mean the dishes there but you
00:34:23have other challenges how you make tell the world that you are there okay and the other bigger challenge
00:34:33when koshi made an let's say you set it up in dwaraga koshi is living in green park when koshi
00:34:39makes an order you want to get it delivered to me yes either you have to have your chotus yeah
00:34:45otherwise you have to go to established logistics player if you are only a small time player if you
00:34:50go to any of the established logistics players boss i can't technically integrate with you i can't do a
00:34:55contract with you i don't even know deep checker you're a fresh business i don't even know how good
00:34:59you are so now we'll have to contract so then what is the option an established platform will give you
00:35:05logistics as a part of their service it will be a package it will give you a package say that you
00:35:10make yourself visible in my platform i'll also take care of the logistics yes yes so you become
00:35:16under their thump
00:35:20because you are no other option now when ondc came and said the buying application let's say
00:35:25oil app came the buying applications earlier it's helping you to you know expose to larger number of
00:35:31sellers but again you have a challenge of a logistics that's when so we said finally
00:35:41logistics is nothing but another catalogable service now so we discussed with the logistics player and
00:35:46the first one to hit the idea in a big way was again ola he said i'll make logistics as a service
00:35:52available only to the network he said my logistics services now to the network anybody who wants to buy
00:35:59cannot come and do a one-to-one deal with me you can buy from the network sadly deep sugar
00:36:07bengali restaurant got an order from paytm because buying application for delivery you will buy a
00:36:15logistics you as a seller will buy a logistics service from the network which is given by ola you
00:36:21stitch them together and get a delivery that is an idea we started in last april may initially we
00:36:29do daily we should do over 200 300 application transaction now we do about 70 to 80 000 transaction
00:36:36only hyperlocal in few cities now we are going to expand it widely the beauty is initially it was only
00:36:41ola today ola is only about 65 70 percent the remaining year more and more people are coming
00:36:48and the most interesting thing deep sugar they are coming not just for the transaction in ondc
00:36:53earlier only the people who bought in ondc now out of the 100 transaction i do in hyperlocal delivery
00:36:59infused it is 30 percent is being bought by other entities who was not transacting in ondc they are
00:37:06only coming for logistics okay they got some orders from somewhere maybe they got a whatsapp order maybe
00:37:11they got a phone or maybe they got an order from a existing network from a swiggy zomato amazon
00:37:17i mean wherever you got something yeah so he says that i will deliver at because i'm buying logistics
00:37:23from here okay so these kind of innovations all become possible only because of unbundling and
00:37:30interoperability that won't happen overnight you're talking about social transformation changing business
00:37:34practices people figuring out it works for example it took one year for somebody to figure out this
00:37:40logistics as a possibility i started in 2023 it is only 2024 may logistics come now we are trying to
00:37:45work out on the um in the hyper i mean the intercity logistics also similarly you already heard
00:37:53announcement saying that warehouse as a service packaging as a service they all could come as
00:38:01available in the ondc network in fact some packaging companies have they realized there are a lot of
00:38:06small sellers who are all could not have a minimum order quantity because they were all making
00:38:11different kind of services now they said hey all of them are buying from ondc network so i'll create
00:38:16some standard offers and make it available so for me it's convenient you were also by the same standard
00:38:22side he will also buy the same standard so these kind of changes but if you ask me all these things
00:38:26will happen overnight no so from five like i said now from thousand to five million it happened one year
00:38:33five million to 15 million happened in the next one year and i'm hoping this kind of tremendous
00:38:38growth will happen by more and more people learning the adoption what is your aim for this year the end
00:38:44of this year how many transactions in our market no i said last year we did uh three to four times and
00:38:50i should at least fight it i mean we should see an accelerator five to eight times when in the next 12
00:38:55months that's what i'm trying to and i'm seeing that as more and more people coming for example
00:39:01interesting innovations are happening in the buy side you have not seen a big announcement for
00:39:07example bajaj finance they are you know you know what their business is now they're saying that i want
00:39:15to enable my consumers to benefit from the ondc network so you would see they have sort of strategic
00:39:23alliance by which they make it possible so they'll sell loans on on dc or not just loans okay they say
00:39:29that my people a lot of people who come for loans i want them to be exposed to buying other things
00:39:34through a strategic alliance strongly if you look at their they found a way to bring what they call
00:39:39hamara mall where you can actually in fact they just done a soft launch through appropriate
00:39:45strategy gallons in the buyer application in a big way you can buy you'll be able to buy food and
00:39:50electronics and fashion interesting thing now when somebody buy an electronics they say hey by the way if you
00:39:55want you can buy my card that becomes a possibility similarly another innovation in fact they're just
00:40:02going to go launch you know in the maybe next month is a gaming application called nazara
00:40:11nazara is what game yes so they know that lots of kids come and play the games there but while playing
00:40:17games you also want to have fast food yes you want to order for your pizza you want to order for your
00:40:22uh coca-cola today what do you have to do here to go to zviggy or samadu yeah imagine he can click
00:40:28at the bottom while playing the game on the gaming app you can order so they can they started in fact
00:40:35they're starting with food etc and then imagine they can be if they're a tech company they can be more
00:40:40innovative they can find a way in which when you're seeing a device there say you want to buy this they
00:40:47can say that you want to buy this device click in the game itself they can become a buyer application
00:40:51yeah i don't know whether you notice you have not seen much advertising because they just started
00:40:56you saw the prasad baradhi's ott na waves have you seen that no prasad baradhi just launched
00:41:02because few lack of downloads already an ott like netflix or hotstar it's called waves okay go and
00:41:09download it okay so you will get a lot of old in fact if you're a lover of old hindi movies and
00:41:15serials etc it's a very good place okay you will see at the bottom shopping okay go and click there
00:41:22you will be able to buy everything from ndc okay because they have enabled the buying application there
00:41:30they are just making sure that all our problems are hand out before they start publicity
00:41:36so this so what is going to happen is that different buying surfaces who have digital consumers
00:41:43for something can now add complementary product so every app and platform can become based on for
00:41:50say that my customer base they will only search out what is relevant yeah for example just saying
00:41:55bajaj finance has a certain market segment of buyers coming to them they will try to make those products
00:42:02relevant they will help them to search out those products there's no point in showing products which
00:42:08are not relevant yeah for example cscsp has become a buying application even airpay and novopay are some
00:42:16buying applications you know why i give the name they essentially even spice bunny they essentially
00:42:22currently deal with some business correspondence or some business for the rural consumers
00:42:28now if they become a buyer application and they are becoming in fact they already started
00:42:32two thousand transactions every day they can help assisted commerce there are people in the village
00:42:40who come to them say that they can show them they go a computer may be a pad may they go yeah phone
00:42:44may go there go jaja a order caro it will get delivered here and you can compete probably i'll charge
00:42:49you two rupees i'm just making or 10 rupees for being like your old pcos yeah now their buying application
00:42:56will create only products relevant for them they will not show them the one lakh iphone they may
00:43:03show at 10 000 rupees of a cheaper phone so today if you really look at any of the i mean if you look
00:43:10at phone is one of the most prominent variety but immediately start bombarding with offers etc on the
00:43:15most premium phone because that is meant for people who can afford those premium funds the upper 10 percent
00:43:20of the first variety yeah not even 10 who say they come back but for the other it doesn't make send
00:43:26them to curate i mean you can go and search out and some you know less expensive product but that is
00:43:31not what they will promote correct so this enables so any buying application come and say that i am going
00:43:37to curate for my sellers that is why interoperability and unbundling is on long term good for consumers and
00:43:45sellers otherwise on long term they will suffer i mean it's been proven globally in many segments every
00:43:54country has taken measures at every point of time for example sherman act was came in 1870
00:44:00the whole idea was to take out the challenges of concentration of bell labs and standard oil and so on
00:44:06so forth and they were what they came in forcefully broke them up by law yes what we are saying is that
00:44:14instead of trying to do that you know the enforcement kind of approach which also is there if we can
00:44:20make the technology and market make it possible and encourage that the possibilities are much fairer
00:44:27faster and more democratic but i have a question here because you know because everybody says that
00:44:33ndc is the upi of e-commerce and because you also drew the comparison gave the example in upi the rbi
00:44:42or the government asked all the banks to uh come and join upi right the banks were the basic
00:44:49infrastructure of upi they were where all where the accounts were from where the transaction was
00:44:56originating and ending the supply is there yes consumer interface is done by other enterprises yes but
00:45:01the banks were told it was enforced on banks in a way right so do you think that without enforcing
00:45:09on any of the big suppliers or uh yeah e-commerce platforms do you think uh this will organically
00:45:15become that it may take a longer time but here finally all said and done yeah in the banking side
00:45:22like bankers they are a highly regulated entity under rbi and there how many of them are there
00:45:28that's 10 000 i mean i'm taking all the small now chota motor bank together and they're highly
00:45:34regulated and actively so even implementation is easy and it makes sense whereas in in when you
00:45:39look up seller there are millions of sellers so there is that is why the government says i am
00:45:45strongly endorsing and supporting and eventually they may even find it wind makes the power you know
00:45:54working in an ond open network much more easily it needs certain amount if i'll give you another long if
00:46:01you look at the example it goes chicken egg if you remember i'll tell you one of the old first big
00:46:08transaction in the digital market in the capital market initially you know nse came with digital
00:46:19market initially there was only practically we only one stock exchange it took a long time for them to
00:46:24the government did an intervention by creating an institutional thing can you explain this in
00:46:29whatever the time i think you were also there yeah there were 23 exchanges which predominantly there
00:46:34was only bsc okay and the in terms of automation was being very very slow so if you look at the
00:46:41institutions government through the institutions took an initiative to set up a digital uh stock exchange
00:46:48that's how nse came okay they acted as an enabler and then that was on the trading side on the settlement
00:46:57side we through institutions nsdl came initially it was not there was no rule and in fact it was very
00:47:07interesting because capital market the liquidity is a very critical thing if lots of people do not have
00:47:15electronic share there cannot be liquidity and if there's no liquidity of electronic share they will
00:47:19not come so we had the same chicken next story so through enablement even on a control market through
00:47:26enablement engagement education persuasion you created a certain amount of mass it is then the
00:47:33regulator came and said now a cleaner way of doing this is only digital for a sophisticated and so they
00:47:39and brought in certain amount of regulatory requirement there again they said i'll small business will not
00:47:47force them you know if you wanted to sell 100 shares you can do it in physical firm but eventually it
00:47:53became so prevalent nobody wanted to reach a physical share even today even when the physical
00:47:59shares were being allowed if you go to a broker he will say that if you if i have to deal with digital
00:48:03physical chair i'll say 25 discount so what we are saying is so we'll have to keep on working
00:48:10towards reaching some threshold you know the best example is like you know we started with grocery and
00:48:15food and then mobility if you look at mobility 100 there again there's only one practically one or two
00:48:23excuse and it is in a sense digital final you know i book you as a driver and after that you deliver but
00:48:31that booking is digital and you are already entered into a contract deliver is take me somewhere okay
00:48:37that way it is much more digital if you look at that is why the the adoption became much faster
00:48:43in food while we when we plugged in the the logistics food picked up very fast and that gave
00:48:51confidence more and more people to come and say that let me jump into it so similarly you would see
00:48:57these like for example when other segments related segments like you know like budget ads of the
00:49:03world measure of the world start pushing on electronics and so on so eventually probably there
00:49:07might be some regular i mean the market itself will push or probably some regulatory nudge or some
00:49:13would come okay endorsement except i may come uh to tell people the benefit so you're talking about a
00:49:20complete very broad cross-section of products sellers buyers and that's why government has taken some
00:49:26affirmative action for example you might have seen the msme ministry came and said that i'm going to
00:49:32just announce a scheme to help the msme to liberate the network you would see um even many philanthropic
00:49:40capital coming and say that i will work with the small business to familiarize themselves how to deal in
00:49:46a digital market see it is not just digitization of the catalog it is also about teaching them the
00:49:53discipline of dealing in a digital market having good packaging so that if there is somebody is
00:49:59making an order for something from calcutta to delhi from a small suppliers he has perfectly
00:50:07reliable packaging so that it reaches here without getting lost it has good documentation to make sure
00:50:15that it when there is it is changes from multiple uh hand you know it doesn't get dropped because
00:50:24something did not mess add up you know or uh you know all these elements have to come so there's a lot of
00:50:31capacity building that has to take in place people have to get used to same thing would have happened if
00:50:37you really look at um five years ago nobody knew uh social marketing i mean social media today everybody
00:50:46learned to go into social media like 70 80 percent of the people go into social media and they are all
00:50:51using some um just give an example let's say uh instagram marketing let's say when i see something in the
00:51:01instagram if i don't know the suppliers i'm not so sure whether i can trust him i don't know what is
00:51:07credential okay if whereas if you are given a link to say that you are a supplier in ondc and give a deep
00:51:15link of a qr code hey ondc means this guy's reputation i can see from there there is certain amount of due
00:51:21diligence that is there so a lot more all these people who are now don't why do they do that because
00:51:27they know that they can't find a place in the established marketplace or it's too expensive in the
00:51:32established marketplace now they can all become a part of a organized marketplace with certain
00:51:37credibility coming in yes so that helps a seller and helps the buyer true that will help the small
00:51:44sellers from across and and the buyer also so these are the see all these building blocks will
00:51:49gradually evolve if you remember look at the last 10 years how even e-commerce evolved in our
00:51:55time how social media evolved in a time so that's how here is something do you think without the
00:52:01biggest players in e-commerce joining do you think uh ondc can still become uh big see the thing is
00:52:10when you say because it's like saying that without the card players could you have started upi
00:52:16that time they were the biggest players how much did they do 250 million transactions
00:52:20today how much what is the market penetration seven percent so we would see uh you would see these
00:52:27guys now that places like restaurants is maturing logistic is maturing you are seeing more and more
00:52:33bigger players coming and participating so it might if they if the bigger come jump in it will be faster
00:52:40but then that cannot be the otherwise it take a slightly longer time but that's a direction that
00:52:46we are going to see so another question is that you said that the small sellers can join the digital
00:52:53bandwagon using ondc but one of the things that kirana stores small sellers today are concerned about
00:53:01is quick commerce that in the big cities quick commerce is killing their business where does ondc come
00:53:08in here in quick commerce what does quick commerce mean quick commerce mean that i can place an order
00:53:15and i'll get it delivered in double quick time let's take 10 minutes or 15 minutes
00:53:22what does it entail it means that somebody has to the moment the order digitally the the the order
00:53:30will go in instantly that means the seller will has to pack it and seller will have to get it picked up
00:53:38and get it delivered within 10 minutes within 10 minutes so it's a preparation time and the delivery
00:53:44time now if you look at multiple things are evolving in the ndc network one is some of the
00:53:49logistics guys i mean these are all hyper local it's not about delivering from delhi to chandigat
00:53:54it's all about within the five to six kilometers many of the uh supply i mean the logistics provider
00:54:01saying that i have decent supply of logistics if you ask me i can be there ready to pick up in couple
00:54:08of minutes time you be ready to pack up and make it available so we are seeing some of these sellers
00:54:17getting themselves ready to make a quick delivery quick packaging not all of them and some logistics
00:54:27players are saying in this location i can handle it and i'm confident about these sellers packaging and
00:54:32making it available so buyer applications have started differentiating saying that these sellers
00:54:38can deliver in 15 minutes 20 minutes interestingly even in a food supply the average time for delivery
00:54:46in food and ondc network is 33 minutes in the 2 million transactions that happens every month average
00:54:52time is 30 to 33 minutes we have reached that time and used to be 50 55 60 minutes when we started
00:54:58now here so these things are happening and some of the grocery what is the average time i just don't
00:55:04remember it's actually because nobody has put that but there are many of them who are ready to deliver
00:55:09in 30 to 35 minutes okay and now um some experiments are happening uh probably you'll see in couple of
00:55:17months time in some of the locations the clusters of sellers coming together as well as a logistics partner
00:55:24who will make the supply of logistics the delivery boys available as a common otherwise you as a seller
00:55:30if you have to have your total and the big guys don't want you there so some of the sellers and coming
00:55:38together are creating mechanism saying that okay for these items for this high demand i'll keep them
00:55:44already and a logistics guy saying that i'll give you a logistics immediately in that location
00:55:50so you're seeing such innovations happening but i think one of the extraordinary things that have
00:55:57you know about quick commerce is that you have very disparate skus on one screen from the same seller
00:56:04from the same dark store can that happen with ndc can that happen with the kirana's coming on ndc i'm just
00:56:12thinking aloud not that anything can come one is i'm just now i'm just visualizing that's what i mean
00:56:18i mean if you go to a quick commerce and i'm just buy a phone uh sorry you can buy a electronic some
00:56:25say a charger and a packet of chips on the same screen can that happen no i'm just saying visualizing
00:56:31whether it is for imagine i'm just making a theory imagine let's say lachpat nagar there are all kinds
00:56:38of sellers together let them all get on boarded okay and that is on the supply side i'm assuming
00:56:49that collectively they set up a dark store one shop they assume that i am the dark store for all the
00:56:54popular products what is the meaning of dark store it means it has to be immediately packaged and made
00:56:59it ready otherwise if i had to pick up chips from here and phone from there and shirt from there and
00:57:05this thing it becomes a pain imagine all of you come together make these things available in one
00:57:11location so on the buying side you will see your shop and your shop and his shop place the order and
00:57:17all of them delivery is coming from one location and then the logist can pick up and get it delivered
00:57:25so these kind of experiments are being developed it's happening this experiment people are trying to shape
00:57:31these things but whether has it started the answer is no the beauty of an unbundled architecture is that
00:57:39diverse innovations can come it will not be as fast as somebody coming with a billion dollar and say that
00:57:44this is my fantastic model i'm going to set it up and get done that can they can do it faster quicker
00:57:52but can they serve the whole requirement of a country you mean you say five uh quick commerce
00:57:57companies can require meet the demand of the whole of the country 500 billion dollars so that's why
00:58:04you would see it's like saying that um like in the different segments of consumers who are willing
00:58:12to pay a different kind of prices uh who wants a certain kind of service will come there you know
00:58:20who will you know who will get used to a new idea will so they are all coexist but will that be the
00:58:27only way are we saying that all of our country will become quick commerce supplied even all of delhi
00:58:33will become the supplied by quick commerce two quick commerce companies then if there are other
00:58:38options that is there you will see innovative ideas coming but they will when you somebody comes with a
00:58:45billion dollar they can implement a specialized service double quick and they will build up the market
00:58:51share but if there is no other option to have for any new development then they will practically have
00:58:59control of the market then it will come with its own associated practice that you have seen globally
00:59:04whereas if the other models are possible you will see such innovation for example while a lot of people
00:59:09are more comfortable with nasa habit i want in 10 minutes time if i see that if something can be come in
00:59:15half a day's time without something there's no desperate urgency and if it's giving me a better deal better
00:59:21option you know in each of them otherwise the while they have given a diverse kind of product
00:59:28and there it will just for the same product how many there is a limit on which skus they can keep
00:59:34for each of them they collectively the offer the fine to me is collectively offers otherwise you will see
00:59:41that i'll have three two kinds of potato chips three kinds of four and four kinds of stuff that is all that
00:59:46is there because it doesn't make sense for them to keep a larger variety while the breadth will be
00:59:52there in terms of product product types but product manufacturers that kind of depth cannot be there
00:59:59you know nobody can keep either they have to keep their inventory or the suppliers will have to go and
01:00:03keep their inventory so these kind of challenges will come but an ondc network enable different
01:00:08options for different sectors even i'm just trying to say even let's say if quick commerce companies
01:00:12if they say that i'm making myself visible into ondc network there's nothing wrong for them no the
01:00:17buyer application say that if somebody want 10 minutes you go and pick up from there so if they
01:00:21join on dc they also like the same question that you asked earlier existing is there a reason for
01:00:25them to join make the supply available here is that no i said eventually they may see that that is one
01:00:32now it is all on the early stage of expansion time we don't know how it is going to mature
01:00:36how these new models will come how the entities who are impacted since they are disparate and very
01:00:44spread out one you know they will take a longer time to come together to some or it will take some
01:00:51maybe somebody else a different idea to bring them all together may tightly longer time compared to a
01:00:56single one billion dollar impact that's another question i want to ask the commerce minister i think
01:01:02ondc comes under ministry of commerce i think last year the commerce minister had said this at a
01:01:09public event that if you are a platform if you are an e-commerce platform you shouldn't just go to
01:01:18ondc to enter a new area let's say you know you do food delivery on your platform you shouldn't just
01:01:24come to quick commerce to get into grocery you should also bring your expertise no no what he said is
01:01:31what i remember what he said is don't if you are a somebody who has got both sides yeah just don't
01:01:36come only on one side it doesn't say that don't add and side say that you know i'll help my sellers
01:01:42but i will not expose my buyers he said eventually you should bring both of them it should be a
01:01:46commitment to both sides not to one side not that anybody can have complementary you didn't have for
01:01:50example that is actually bad idea that's not what he meant for example if you already have some idea
01:01:55yeah yeah if i can give complementary product for example hola well i said i have my running
01:02:01business in mobility yeah i'm giving consumers the other products yeah isn't it better for ndc
01:02:08by exposing his ride-hailing clients yeah without ride-hailing come probably they will come
01:02:14see that all my ride-hailing i'm giving all the other products in the ndc network he's exposing his buyers
01:02:20buyers which is that that's out but he should also expose his sellers to what do they sell them
01:02:24the drivers probably eventually he may come my thing is he says that his buyers are being exposed
01:02:32for all the other products it's not that his buyers are for example his buyers cannot buy the
01:02:37ride-hailing promo and dc network but they can buy all the complement you should let these innovations
01:02:43happen so long as it's in the interest of the see what he said this it should be done in the best
01:02:50interest of the network on a long term it was not it was not a rationing idea into the guys of
01:02:58disciplining idea supporting idea say that let the network grow so will bavish bring his ride-hailing
01:03:05into it that you have to ask i think these uh two entrepreneurs who you have been closely working
01:03:13with bavish and vijayashekar sharma i think ptm and ola both of them are on ndc yeah so do you think
01:03:22they see it as a huge opportunity to will they invest behind it no both of them are very strongly
01:03:29committed and you would have seen public uh uh utterances by bavish himself or his team in fact
01:03:36recently there was a interview by his uh senior person handling the ndc side capish came in cnbc
01:03:43where they said that we started with food and you're added grocery and we're adding more and in fact
01:03:49he made i'm he made a public announcement that it is no more the brand name is no more all our caps it's
01:03:55all our consumer and vijayashekar also has taken very publicly strong positions of his support and
01:04:01how he plans to liberate on ndc and like i said now bajaj has come now nazir has come many more uh you
01:04:08know the enterprises are coming under by set even in tata new you can buy food through ndc network so
01:04:15when do you think at least not if not on the volume side i think that's not possible that when do you
01:04:22think that ndc at least in terms of value will become as big as upi in terms of transaction value
01:04:29no value we don't even track okay see thing is it is actually number of transactions that has to
01:04:34become more and more level so the way i look at is we have given first focus to what you call consumer
01:04:39products which is food and grocery and fashion and all of them and logistics to support and supporting
01:04:48see whatever that it is some of the areas go deeper and supporting areas like logistics travel
01:04:54you know even financial products so all of them come one by one like i said see these transformation
01:05:00social level transformation do not happen overnight it takes a little time and we're building on that
01:05:06thank you koshi for giving your time to us for coming here and hope our viewers have enjoyed this podcast
01:05:14uh for any more questions uh regarding ndc you can always email koshi would be great if you can
01:05:21say your email id to the viewers you can send the mail co at ndc.org there is one place you will see
01:05:28my colleagues or me will respond to you thank you for your time koshi thank you for tuning into this
01:05:34episode of skm velocity until next time