Mumbai: in an exclusive IANS interview with International Musician Anupam Shobhakar, where he talked about his insights on his latest fusion album, Liquid Reality. Then, he discusses the creative process behind his innovative blend of genres. Shobhakar also opens up about the role of AI in music, its benefits, and challenges. Additionally, he shares his admiration for legendary singer Udit Narayan and reacted to his recent viral incident. Get an insider's look at the intersection of music, technology, and creativity.
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00:00Anupamji, first of all welcome to INS and talking about liquid reality blends
00:05Indian classical music with jazz rock. So was it a conscious attempt to break
00:10genre barriers or did it happen naturally over time?
00:14Well thank you for having me Sharik. It is my pleasure to talk to you guys.
00:18Talking about liquid reality, there was no conscious effort to break genres or
00:24to create something that's not been done before.
00:28Usually music doesn't work like that. It's a very natural organic process where you start to
00:34amalgamate and connect your ideas through sound and you start to you know
00:39put everything say pen to paper and then music sort of flows in its own direction.
00:45Well there were definitely concepts that came with very strong musical ideas
00:51that I possess and I wanted to capture the lightning in the bottle if you will.
00:55And that's how like the initial writing process of liquid reality started.
01:00What is this liquid reality all about?
01:03It is my new solo album and it's coming up with AGS recordings in the United States and worldwide.
01:10It's coming, it's a worldwide release. The record label is called AGS Alternative Guitar Summit
01:15which is a very renowned guitar based label from New York City.
01:21And it has some great great musicians and legendary guitar players.
01:25I'm very honored to be included in that list.
01:28It's run by my friend Joel Harrison who's an American based composer, guitar player
01:33and he's a very renowned musician himself, a Guggenheim fellow awardee.
01:37And so the album came about my desire to bring together using my instrument
01:47my double neck special guitar which is something I discovered
01:51into fruition with music that I was thinking for a while but I hadn't executed.
01:57So I've been known for doing a lot of instrumental albums, a lot of solo recordings
02:02based on my sarod which is my previous instrument
02:05and my collaborations with great American jazz and classical musicians.
02:09But this time when I started writing music for this album
02:12my wife actually told me that you always write instrumental music
02:16when you lived in India, when I lived in India.
02:18I composed a lot of great albums for companies like Sarigoma, HMV, Times Music
02:26where I used to love working with singers, you know.
02:29And it's my first love to write and to produce and to compose and arrange
02:33with these amazing singers so I decided to bring that back.
02:37And now in America as opposed to maybe 10 years ago
02:41you know there are great singers that sing in Indian languages.
02:45So it started with the idea of me starting to compose all this interesting music
02:50and then involving and collaborating with these great musicians
02:54and that turned into Liquid Reality.
02:56Tell us something about your journey which is quite inspiring
03:00from Bombay to global stage.
03:02So how do you grow up in India, shape up your musical identity?
03:05Thank you, thank you.
03:07Well it's inspiring, it's also very challenging.
03:09I grew up in Bombay, not too far from here.
03:11We're sitting in Bandra right now with the wonderful Sharik Ji.
03:14And I grew up in Juhu which is not too far from here.
03:17And yeah, I mean late 90s, early 2000s kid.
03:22Grew up playing guitar and played with a lot of local bands.
03:26And you know I come from a family of musicians.
03:28My mom was a great singer.
03:30My grandfather was a great sitar player.
03:32My great-grandfather was just a genius luminary who was a poet.
03:37He was a sitar player, he played the Esraj.
03:40He was conferred even a title by the great Ramdhanath Tagore
03:45and who penned some words of poetry for him.
03:48And he was also one of the teachers of the great Tumdi artist
03:51Sureshwari Devi for us.
03:53So with that background I grew up playing guitar, mainly western music.
03:58You know a lot of rock, a little bit of jazz, a lot of metal and rock.
04:02And then I started to get more deeply inspired by the classical music of India.
04:07I had the great opportunity when I was 16 years old
04:09to watch the great Ustad Ali Akbar Khan Sahib
04:12who later on would I know I would become a part of that Nirvana.
04:15His son was my main teacher, Ustad Ashish Khan Sahib.
04:17And it changed my life to watch Khan Sahib play.
04:20And I had to pursue the sarod.
04:23So I put the guitar down.
04:25I'm a person that can only play one instrument at one time.
04:27I'm not a multi-instrumentalist.
04:29I'm a composer who expresses himself through one instrument.
04:32So I put the guitar down and I went seriously into the sarod
04:35studying ragas and talas and riyaz and just 15 hours of practicing.
04:41And then when I moved to the U.S.
04:43a lot of my collaborations were based on the sarod.
04:45I moved to the U.S. because I love jazz and I love western classical music
04:49and I've had the opportunity to study with masters
04:52and work with the great musicians.
04:54And at some point in life the guitar made a re-entry into my life
04:58because when I was playing the sarod I was missing the guitar.
05:01When I was playing the guitar I was missing the sarod.
05:04And as a composer it was important for me to amalgamate
05:08both these instruments into one.
05:10And hence this instrument which I call Khan Baagat.
05:22Well, music is a very colorful medium.
05:24And especially when I think of music
05:26I think of the word fusion
05:30not as a genre or a style.
05:33I think of it as a concept.
05:35It's conceptually fusion.
05:36We are fusion.
05:37We are a direct fusion of our fathers and mothers.
05:3950% of each.
05:41So everything in life is fusion.
05:43In our bodies chemically we are fusion.
05:47So the colors of music, just like the diverse colors of Holi in India
05:53being, according to me, musically the greatest country in the world.
05:57Because it just doesn't boast of one classical music system.
06:01It boasts of two.
06:03The music of North India and the music of South India.
06:05Carnatic classical music and Hindustani classical music.
06:08There's no other country in the world, bar none, in the United States
06:12that has two fully developed classical traditions.
06:16So these are different colors.
06:18The folk music of India changes every 25 kilometers.
06:20The food changes.
06:22So these colors play an important part.
06:24And it just happened when we picked the date for the release.
06:26We were like, oh, it's Holi.
06:28So that's very fortuitous.
06:30Your custom double neck guitar is revolutionary.
06:33So how does it change your approach to composing and performing?
06:38And if you can perform something on the guitar.
06:41Certainly.
06:42I'll answer that question first and then I'll play a little bit.
06:45So, well, it's inspiring.
06:48Revolutionary, I don't know.
06:50But it's definitely challenging.
06:52And for me, it basically inspires me every day.
06:57Because I discover something new.
06:59And because I'm a child of two worlds musically, as you will see.
07:03That this side, the fretless neck, essentially is my Hindustani.
07:07It is my sarod.
07:09Or my sarangi, or my sitar, or my surbahar, or my senior abab,
07:12or my rudravina, if you will.
07:14And this side, of course, is my western.
07:16The harmony and the counterpoint and the voice reading.
07:19And the chordal colors and all of that.
07:22So every day when I sit to practice.
07:24Because practice is really important for me.
07:26You know, I have to practice two.
07:28It's almost two separate instruments, you know.
07:30So I have to practice them individually.
07:32And Indian music is based on something known as the shruti system.
07:35You know, the microtonal system.
07:37You know, the system of just intonation, technically speaking.
07:42Whereas western music, that's why you see the frets here.
07:44It's based on a system known as equal temperament.
07:47And this is very important.
07:49Because in Indian music, you slide.
07:51There is meand.
07:53In Indian music, the notes are never curved like this.
07:56They're always like this.
07:58This is a very special feature.
07:59It's like a wave.
08:00Like a wave.
08:01Exactly.
08:02Whereas in western music, it's like a peak.
08:05You know.
08:06And these are two different beautiful things.
08:08And I embrace them both equally, you know.
08:11And I don't discriminate music.
08:13You know, music is a universal language.
08:15And I don't discriminate anything.
08:17With artists from different countries collaborating on this album.
08:21So how do you ensure a seamless fusion of styles?
08:24With artists from different countries collaborating.
08:28See, Shariq.
08:29The universal language we speak is music.
08:32In a world we live in where there's so much, you know, war.
08:36And there's so much pain and anguish.
08:40And there's so much economic disparity.
08:42Art is one thing that truly brings human beings together.
08:45No matter what culture, what language, what religion, what race.
08:50If people believe in that.
08:51Two musicians when they're sitting with two instruments.
08:53And you just start communicating through music.
08:56And that is a profound thing.
08:58That's a beautiful thing.
08:59That is what makes us human.
09:01You know.
09:02And I truly believe in that.
09:03I do not believe that art separates us.
09:06Art joins us.
09:07Politics, you know, can be complicated.
09:09Money can be complicated.
09:11But artists are very pure.
09:12That's why in India, art is known as Natharama.
09:15You know, it connects you with the divine.
09:17And when I'm working with, especially in New York City, I have to say.
09:21Just like Bombay.
09:22You know, it's a very diverse city.
09:23Musicians, the greatest musicians from all over the world.
09:26And we just talk the language of music.
09:28You know, we get together.
09:29I'll write something.
09:30I love to write the music through, like, traditional Western notation.
09:34And we'll set up charts.
09:36We'll get together, we'll rehearse.
09:37And we'll just go play the music.
09:39To me, it's all the same.
09:40Whether it's Japan or China or Germany or France or, you know, anywhere.
09:45Mother India is special.
09:48Purists often argue that fusion music dilutes the essence of classical tradition.
09:53So how do you respond to that criticism?
09:55Well, like I was saying earlier.
09:58I consciously believe that the word fusion is a little misunderstood.
10:02I do not think fusion is a style of music.
10:04I really think fusion is a concept.
10:07I think, like I was saying, we are all fusion.
10:10We're exactly halves of our mothers and our fathers.
10:14That makes us fusion.
10:16Our mothers come from a completely different family.
10:18Our fathers come from a different family.
10:20From a part of the world or family.
10:22And we fuse to become our identities.
10:24Our food is fusion.
10:26Tomatoes didn't belong to India.
10:28They came as a part of the Colombian exchange.
10:30We use tomatoes in our food.
10:32That's fusion.
10:33Similarly, music, if you look at the word sitar.
10:36The word sitar is a Persian word.
10:38But we play classical Indian music on it.
10:40The word sarud.
10:41My previous instrument, sahrud, in Persian means good sound.
10:46But it is played in Indian music.
10:48This amalgamation of cultures has always existed in music.
10:52Film music is fusion music.
10:54You'll have a wonderful melody, which is of an Indian ilk.
10:57But you have this lovely orchestration, which is Western.
11:00Even if it is the deepest classical music, there is some fusion in it.
11:04You cannot escape that.
11:05Because of humanity, we are a fusion of chemicals.
11:09So I look at it even from a scientific point of view.
11:12I have a problem with the word purity.
11:14Every time I hear the word purity, I start to get a little suspicious.
11:19Because it sort of reminds me of things like pure blood, pure race, and pure people.
11:25So I don't subscribe to those ideas.
11:28Sir, you have said John McLoughlin.
11:34McLoughlin, Kita playing in Shakti was a revolution.
11:37So do you think Indian musicians got the same level of global recognition as Western artists in fusion music?
11:43Absolutely.
11:44And I find they get even more recognition now.
11:48Especially now.
11:49And like I was saying to you earlier, Shariq, I feel like every Indian musician has a little bit of Shakti in them.
11:54They've been such a path breaker.
11:57And they've been such a game changer in music.
11:59And they were doing it in the 70s.
12:01Even before we were born.
12:02At least before I was born.
12:03And they really changed the way fusion, or I like to call it crossover music.
12:10Because it crosses over cultures.
12:12Is perceived and also enjoyed and experienced.
12:17And I feel, yes, Indian musicians, especially I like, you know, I'm also involved in the MESC.
12:22With my friend Anusha Srinivasan Iyer.
12:25Part of the, I feel like the ministry under Modiji, they're doing a great job with the MESC.
12:30With upskilling of Indian musicians.
12:32And I feel this is a great visionary initiative.
12:35That I'm very, very honored to be a part of the MESC as an honorary member.
12:39Where upskilling and education become a big part.
12:42Indian musicians are already global.
12:44You know, they're winning Grammys.
12:46I'm a voting member of the Grammy Academy.
12:48And, you know, every year you see amazing Indian artists really break the barrier.
12:53And Pandit Ravi Shankar was the one that, we call him the godfather of world music.
12:59You know, he was the one that really brought these worlds together.
13:02We're really basically sitting on his shoulders, you know.
13:05And my teacher, Ustad Ashish Khan, back in the 70s when he was working with George Harrison of the Beatles.
13:10And so many amazing projects.
13:12These people have led the way.
13:14Do you think that these people have led the way?
13:19But at that time there was no such recognition given to them?
13:23I feel there was incredible recognition given to Pandit Ravi Shankar.
13:27Incredible recognition.
13:29Not only the Bharat Ratna, which of course is amazing and, you know, it's such an honor.
13:33But from the Grammys to winning an Oscars.
13:36But there were not many people knowing about that achievement of them.
13:40Which was such a big achievement for India.
13:42Well, but it was also the 70s and there was no social media.
13:45You know, the world was a different place.
13:47You know, we didn't communicate as easily without the internet as we did.
13:50But imagine then where there were barely any Indian musicians in the US or in Europe, you know.
13:57But these people came in and they completely changed the way people think of India back then.
14:03Because, you know, people didn't know much about India back in the 60s, in the 50s.
14:07When Ustad Ali Akbar Khan went for the first time and cut the first LP of Indian music in 1955 in New York City, my city.
14:17And the commentary was given by the great violinist Yehudi Menuhin, you know.
14:22And yeah, I mean, if they were not getting recognition then, which they were,
14:27they're getting even more recognition now because of social media.
14:30And the world's a closer place because of the internet.
14:33Some say that Fusion is just a trendy label for marketing music.
14:37Do you think Fusion music is truly innovative or is it just a repacking of existing traditions?
14:43It's in the hands of the artist, really.
14:45You know, it's what the artist does with it.
14:48You can go to a restaurant and they can say that, oh, we have Delhiwala Butter Chicken.
14:53But they could be making you Hyderabadwala Butter Chicken and nothing wrong with it.
14:56But it really depends on who the artist is.
14:59I feel this is a very, very subjective thing.
15:02So if you have an artist that has taken the time to study music,
15:06taken the time to study Indian music, Western music,
15:09Fusion just doesn't have to be Indian and Western music.
15:12You know, it could be African music meets Japanese music.
15:15But it is, like I said, it is not a genre.
15:19It's not a style. For me, it's a concept.
15:21Fusion is how you take the jeera and you put the dhaniya into it.
15:27And that is fusing with the chemicals and creating this beautiful aroma.
15:30So that's in the hands of the chef, you know.
15:32So a competent, skilled composer have always created great fusion music
15:38from the likes of RD Burman, to the likes of Ravi Shankar, to the likes of Shakti.
15:43Last thing, we have some fun questions.
15:45Go ahead. Let's have fun.
15:47So if liquid reality were a holy color, what shade would it be and why?
15:53If liquid reality was a holy color, as in not the holy trinity,
15:57like the festival holy.
16:01I would think it would be something like crimson red.
16:04Don't ask me why.
16:07What's the wildest reaction you have received from a classical purist
16:12after they heard your music?
16:14The wildest reaction I've received is they have embraced it
16:19and they've said, you're changing the game.
16:23If you could jam with any musician dead or alive, who would it be and why?
16:53Since you are a fan of both Indian and Western music,
17:06if Eddie Van Halen and Ustad Ali Akbar Khan had a musical duo,
17:12who do you think would win?
17:23What fun people think always get wrong about fusion music?
17:54You could go anywhere with your wife, with your kids.
17:55You could watch a movie.
17:56You could go for a nice dinner.
17:58But you came all the way, bought a ticket, sat down,
18:02and you watched a concert.
18:04And you gave me that attention and that time in your life.
18:07You are not wrong, man.
18:09The audience is never wrong.
18:11The artist can be wrong, but the audience is never wrong.
18:15Lastly, we just need to ask you one thing.
18:18Recently, there are many news coming up about the concerts of India.
18:24Some say that the organization is not good.
18:27Some say the infrastructure is not good.
18:30And recently there was a case of legendary singer Udit Narayan.
18:34So he was in a concert where the fan came and kissed Udit on the cheek.
18:43And he suddenly was in what mood, we don't know.
18:46But he kissed on our lips.
18:49So if you want to give a reaction,
18:51how an artist should maintain his dignity in a concert?
19:12We are Saraswati Bhakts first.
19:14So it's a very pure thing.
19:16Only in India you'll see that we'll go and we'll touch the stage
19:19and we'll take a pranam and we'll take our shoes off.
19:22So it's such a beautiful thing.
19:24Look, I don't know anything about such a controversy.
19:26So I cannot comment on something I haven't seen.
19:28There are many things coming about AI music and AI tools.
19:34Good question.
19:35So tell us something about that.
19:38Is it damaging the image of musicians or singers?
19:43What do you have to say about that?
20:08orchestras and stuff.
20:09But then keyboard sequencing started.
20:11And those poor guys were driving rickshaws.
20:13So technology will come.
20:15You cannot stop it.
20:16That's just like trying to stop a tide or a wave.
20:20There was a time when you had dial-up phones.
20:23Hello.
20:24But now it's a mobile phone.
20:25So technology will come.
20:27It's again how you use it.
20:28Technology is a double-edged sword.
20:30It can destroy.
20:31It can also create.
20:32So I feel like if we let AI replace the human element in art or society.
20:40See, remember, even pilots when they're flying a plane,
20:43they rely on a lot of technology, a lot of computer instrumentation.
20:47But the final decision is always that human intuition.
20:51So that is what makes us artists, musicians, human beings.
20:56That complex fusion of ideas is what makes us human beings.
21:01So if AI completes the algorithm, totally gets rid of that human element,
21:06then it's not the music I'm personally interested in.
21:09Because for me, music is a human interest thing.
21:13Yeah.
21:14And lastly, what message do you have to give to your friends?
21:18Stay safe.
21:19Stay healthy.
21:20Stay responsible.
21:21Be good to your parents.
21:22They are the blessing.
21:24Be good to your fellow human beings.
21:26Listen to good music.
21:27And if you're a guitar player, man, practice 10 hours a day.
21:30You're welcome.