How might Donald Trump’s recent conviction influence women in the polling booth? Debbie Walsh, Director of Rutgers University’s Center for American Women and Politics, spoke with Michel Martin about what inspires women to go out and vote.
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00:00Hello, everyone, and welcome to Amanpour and Company. Here's what's coming up.
00:09There is a worldwide migrant crisis. And if the United States doesn't secure our border,
00:14there's no limit to the number of people who may try to come here.
00:17Biden takes executive action on the border. We delve into what it means for people there
00:23and for election year politics. Then-
00:27Just explain that we already documented several cases where they executed local people. Tell
00:31them that if we need anything, call signs or names or whatever they might have.
00:38The Crane's Call, a new film, charts one woman's fight for justice in Ukraine. Also ahead-
00:44This just may be a reminder of what you get when you get a Donald Trump presidency.
00:52Michelle Martin speaks to Debbie Walsh, head of the Center for American Women in Politics
00:57at Rutgers University, about how Donald Trump's conviction may influence women voters.
01:21Amanpour and Company is made possible by the Anderson Family Endowment, Jim Atwood
01:28and Leslie Williams, Candace King Weir, The Family Foundation of Layla and Mickey Strauss,
01:35Mark J. Bleschner, The Philemon M. D'Agostino Foundation, Seton J. Melvin, Charles Rosenblum,
01:44Ku and Patricia Ewan, committed to bridging cultural differences in our communities, Barbara
01:51Hope Zuckerberg. Additional support provided by these funders and by contributions to your
01:58PBS station from viewers like you. Thank you.
02:02Hello, everyone, and welcome to the program. I'm Bianna Golodryga in New York, sitting
02:06in for Christiane Amanpour. It is a major election issue, immigration, and now President
02:12Biden is taking action. New restrictions came into effect almost immediately overnight.
02:18Lazy migrants who cross the southern U.S. border illegally barred from seeking asylum
02:22once a daily threshold is reached. Biden said he was left with no choice but to take executive
02:28action, blaming Republicans for blocking a bipartisan border deal. As crossings surge
02:33to record highs late last year, it's a huge shift for the Democratic Party, who for years
02:38criticized President Trump's policies on immigration. Of course, beyond the politics are real people
02:44at the border. The American Civil Liberties Union says Biden's move will, quote, put thousands
02:49of lives at risk. Here to discuss is Andrea Flores, former deputy director for policy
02:54for the ACLU's Equality Division and former adviser to President Obama and President Biden
03:01on immigration policy. Andrea Flores, thank you so much for joining the program. Obviously,
03:07your views on this are pretty apparent. You've been disappointed by this executive order.
03:13You've written an opinion piece about it in The New York Times. I want to get to that
03:17in a moment. But first, let's just begin with what drove this action from the president
03:21now. Cynics will say that this is simply a political stunt by the president, given that
03:27his approval ratings on immigration specifically are very low, around 28 percent. Others say
03:33that he had no alternative, given that he had a Congress that was not willing to act,
03:37even though there was a bipartisan, some of the toughest legislation ever presented
03:41available and a speaker who was not willing to push it forward.
03:50So there's no question that the Biden administration, President Biden, has faced major challenges
03:54with the border and this issue. And part of that is simply because migration levels are
03:59higher than they have been in a very long time, post-pandemic, post-economic collapse
04:05in many countries along sort of the migratory route in Latin America, Central America.
04:11But, you know, he had other options other than to pursue an order right now that would
04:16shut down asylum in a much more restrictive way than he has in the past.
04:20And as a great example, you can look at his own work that his team did by negotiating
04:25with Mexico after the last big surge in border crossings.
04:29And they actually helped reach an agreement with Mexico that led to a decrease by over
04:3550 percent in unauthorized border crossings.
04:38So that's where we've been actually the last five months.
04:40So it's kind of an open question as to why he chose to issue yet another restrictive
04:46ban. When we've looked at the past three years, these types of bans rarely work.
04:51We saw he kept Title 42, which was just as an expansive of an asylum ban.
04:57And we actually saw the highest numbers for the last three years in the past decade.
05:01So these are policies that really lead to the same kinds of results as you actually saw
05:06him get by using foreign policy tools to address migration that way.
05:11So it's probably not the right approach to border politics and fixing the issue.
05:16But it's also why we're arguing that he needs to broaden out the conversation on
05:19immigration to also talk about the things he's doing to help immigrants who are here
05:23today. But if a legal boarding border crossing surpassed twenty five hundred, which
05:29they have throughout most of his presidency, we saw what, thirty five hundred just
05:36earlier this week. Is that not viewed, in your opinion, as a crisis?
05:40Because as you noted, in your view, there are alternative options for the president
05:46that that were you said that there are some options that were already going into effect
05:50and working. That doesn't seem to be the case, though, just looking at the numbers
05:55themselves. It's a great question on numbers.
05:58So I've been on the record.
06:00It is a crisis. It actually has been for the last 10 years.
06:03Right. This started under President Obama.
06:04It got worse under President Trump and it's continued to be an upward trend in
06:09migration. So there's no question that policy action is actually needed here.
06:14But it's a question of which policies actually have the evidence behind them to fix the
06:18problem. Right. So we're not arguing that he should not address the border crisis or talk
06:24about the importance of border security or really short vulnerabilities on this issue.
06:28But why isn't he talking about his own policy?
06:30So he created parole options for some of the highest sort of nationalities that were
06:35crossing the border. So let's take Venezuela, for example.
06:38Eight million people are displaced right now from Venezuela.
06:40It's a huge number. And it's why we're seeing such a high number of border crossings
06:45these past three years from from Venezuelans.
06:47He created an option for them instead of having to use a smuggler, instead of them having
06:51to come up to the border. He created a pathway that allowed them to apply for temporary
06:56legal status in the United States, come with an American sponsor and fly into the U.S.
07:01And that was a much better option, say, than just simply restricting them from coming to
07:06the border and seek asylum.
07:07And what you saw when that policy went into place and he expanded it to three other
07:11nationalities, that also decreased unauthorized crossings.
07:15So we're living in an outdated place on sort of border security policy and tools,
07:21asylum bans have failed the last 10 years.
07:23And so many of us are just asking for him to take a better evidence based approach to
07:27solving the border crisis.
07:29It's also the question of where these people go, where these migrants go.
07:33They don't just disappear.
07:35It is much easier for them to go back to Mexico, to go back to some Central American
07:40countries like Guatemala and Honduras, who already have provisions in place to take them
07:45back. That's not necessarily the case, though, as you mentioned with Venezuela.
07:49And now we're seeing many coming from far away countries, Africa, for example, where
07:54they there is no deal on the table.
07:57It's very difficult in reality to send these migrants back to their home countries.
08:02There's just news today that Mexico and the United States are nearing an agreement for
08:06non-Mexican migrants to be deported directly to their home countries other than
08:10Mexico. I'm not sure what that looks like, given that many of these countries don't
08:15have these types of agreements with the U.S.
08:19This is such a great question.
08:20And when we just talk about border numbers, what we miss is the fact that exactly to your
08:25point, different nationalities get treated differently at our border, which makes it
08:29really, really hard to set border policies that will impact everyone in the same way,
08:34which is exactly why you do want fewer people having to access our immigration system at
08:39the border. So, for example, if Congress, as I as I point out in the piece I wrote, they
08:45have not meaningfully changed who actually gets to come to the U.S.
08:49since 1990.
08:50So we are going on decades of not updating visa categories for employers, for
08:56families, for people seeking protection, whether through asylum or the refugee program.
09:01So we are using an outdated system.
09:03And there's no it's no wonder why we're seeing people from around the world who can't
09:08get a visa, who there's no line for them to join.
09:11You see them now using the asylum system at our border.
09:14That's a bad, outdated situation.
09:16But the problem with the current border policy conversation is just that we keep talking
09:21only about ending asylum.
09:22We're not talking about building out the pathways that we actually want as a country
09:27because we want immigrants for labor shortages to reverse population decline.
09:31We have real national needs here.
09:33But if we're only talking about asylum, we're missing the whole bigger picture.
09:37I want to get to your piece in The New York Times where you say that President Biden is
09:42falling into a trap laid out for him by Republicans.
09:46Explain what you mean by that.
09:49It's a real win if immigration is only defined by what's happening at the border, right?
09:53It means that President Biden doesn't get to talk about DACA recipients and DREAMers
09:58and all of the ways they contributed to our country for the last 12 years.
10:01It means he doesn't get to talk about the horrors of family separation in some ways
10:05because he's talking instead about what he will do or not do differently at the border.
10:10He's not talking about the fact that, you know, President Trump restricted legal
10:14immigration. And that had a huge economic impact on, let's look at university towns.
10:20President Trump tried to fully ban international students from coming to the United
10:24States. There was a huge outcry over that.
10:27And so if you if you flatten immigration, you're not talking about all the different
10:32ways immigrants already live in our communities, already work and contribute.
10:36Then you are losing the conversation because Trump will always go further to the right
10:41than President Biden on the border.
10:42He will always offer a more cruel alternative.
10:45What President Biden can do, which he campaigned on in 2020 and which President Obama
10:50did, was he said, we have had long time undocumented, you know, members of our
10:55communities. And I'm going to keep fighting for not just going to secure the border.
10:59So I talk about the fact that President Biden can right now help up to like one million
11:05American families, particularly married couples who cannot adjust their status.
11:10So undocumented spouses who could adjust their status, if not for our outdated
11:16immigration laws that have not been updated since 1990.
11:19President Biden can actually give them temporary admission and help them get a work
11:23permit and in many cases help them actually access that back to citizenship.
11:28These are powers that President Bush used, that President Obama used.
11:31So we're really just making an argument that there has to be something also protected
11:37for the immigrants who are here today and for the undocumented, because they're part of
11:41the Democratic Party base.
11:43Right. Democrats always say we are going to keep fighting for the undocumented who have
11:47been waiting and waiting across multiple presidential administrations.
11:51But luckily, President Biden does have options.
11:54He's already used some of them, like temporary protected status.
11:57He could use more, more of them, but he still has time.
12:01And I think that President Trump is not going to talk about protecting American citizens
12:05and their spouses. He's going to talk about tearing those families apart.
12:07And you're saying he can do this unilaterally because obviously you need Congress to
12:11provide a permanent path to citizenship here.
12:14And just in terms of the timing, is this something realistically you think that would be
12:18smart for him to do politically, given that the two, Biden and Trump, are polling neck
12:24and neck? This is a top issue for many voters.
12:27Democrats have seen to be weaker on this issue historically, and we're just months away
12:31from the election.
12:34I think it's a huge political advantage.
12:36Look, when President Obama in 2012, also in the middle of a reelection year, did
12:40something immensely bold by creating the Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals or the
12:45DACA program, helping once again up to around one million people who now over the course
12:50of 12 years started families.
12:52They've started businesses.
12:54They're really contributing to our economy in enormous ways.
12:57It is popular to help the undocumented family members of American citizens because let's
13:02consider the alternative.
13:04In this election, he can really draw a contrast and say, I, as president right now, will
13:09protect your family and I will give them a more stable status and I will protect them
13:14against political candidates like Donald Trump, whose sole goal is to take, there's
13:21four million American citizen children who have undocumented parents right now.
13:25Imagine the human toll of President Trump coming in and doing what he has promised to
13:31do. So the question is, what is Biden promising to do to stabilize, take care of those
13:36children, take care of those family members?
13:38And, you know, we just want to show a policy that's an immigration policy that's better
13:44aligned with our party's values.
13:46Look at the impact of only talking about the border for the last three years.
13:49I'll just say you saw no protections for the undocumented for the first time in 20 years
13:53in the Senate border bill.
13:55Right. So you lose momentum in making the argument of why immigrants need to be
13:59protected now. I'm wondering if the mood in the country, notwithstanding where
14:04Republicans are, but even among Democrats, if it has shifted a bit further to the right
14:09on this issue. Yes, there are progressives who are disappointed and have spoken out
14:13against this executive order.
14:15But you have many Democrats, like from Hakeem Jeffries to those in border states.
14:20Sherrod Brown is another example of a senator who have come out in support of this
14:25action. Many are pointing to the campaign that New York Representative Tom Swasey led
14:31as sort of a blueprint moving forward.
14:33So how does that align with where you're saying he should be going?
14:37Because it seems you're pointing to examples that worked maybe four years ago, eight
14:41years ago, but today perhaps are not the most enticing, even for middle of the
14:48line Democrats.
14:52There's no question that the politics on immigration have shifted and there's been a very
14:56direct cause, which is if Democrats don't have a vision for how to make the border
15:01safer, more orderly, how they get people to comply with current law, then you've seen
15:06what we've seen in the last three years, which are horrible conditions at the border,
15:10which are a new crisis in cities that are ill-equipped and not receiving federal
15:16support to manage new arrivals.
15:18Those have real consequences to the politics of this issue.
15:21But as someone who's been in this space through this massive shift, what shocks me and
15:27gives me hope today is that there is still bipartisan support to protect the
15:32undocumented. That's very significant.
15:35Right. In poll after poll, you even see Trump voters polling in favor of saying we
15:39still need to protect the undocumented.
15:41So these recommendations are actually very in line with saying you can be for border
15:46security. Now, as a border expert, I might recommend different policy solutions.
15:51But aside from that, you can also and should be for protecting the longtime undocumented
15:56in this country because it's politically popular.
15:58And you saw Tom Suozzi actually do this in his own tough real in his special election.
16:04He didn't just talk about the border.
16:06That's good. That gets a little bit lost.
16:07He paired it. He said, I want to advance border security and I also want to create legal
16:12pathways and protect the undocumented.
16:14That's a two part message.
16:15And that's exactly why we're advocating for President Biden to do the same.
16:20We mentioned your affiliation with the ACLU.
16:22So I don't have to tell you that the ACLU has already threatened legal action following
16:27this executive order.
16:28We know that the court struck down a similar provision taken by President Trump in
16:342018. Now, the Biden administration says that its asylum ban is different from Trump's.
16:40They've taken more nuance, more provisions and more exceptions for humanitarian
16:45emergencies. And then this can be toggled on and off as opposed to as opposed to just a
16:50flat order. Given that, do you think that the courts will uphold this executive order
16:56or do you think that they also will turn it away?
17:01So it's hard to predict in this current legal environment that we're in, I will say the
17:07text of the law is really clear.
17:09So it says you can apply for asylum regardless of where along the border you enter.
17:16Now, maybe that should be changed.
17:18And I think Democrats should consider the ways we operationalize the asylum system and
17:24to make it far more orderly than we've seen it.
17:26But if we are saying you support the rule of law, you cannot just ignore a whole statute
17:33that lays out the fact that people are permitted to seek asylum regardless of how they
17:38enter. And so what the Biden administration is doing is trying to create restrictions and
17:42completely block people from access to asylum.
17:44So it's a tough legal argument that this is much different than what Trump said.
17:50Yeah. Andrea Flores, thank you so much for your time today.
17:53We appreciate it. Thank you so much.
17:57Well, just hours after announcing that executive action on immigration, President Biden
18:01left Washington for Paris, touching down in France for a five day trip to celebrate the
18:0680th anniversary of D-Day, the historic day when U.S.
18:09and allied forces stormed French beaches from air and sea in World War Two, obviously a
18:15pivotal step in liberating Europe from Nazi Germany.
18:19But amidst the celebration, there is a diplomatic agenda, too, as the president seeks to
18:23deepen ties with European allies in the face of growing Russian aggression.
18:28He'll be meeting with Ukraine's President Zelensky to discuss the state of play.
18:31And Melissa Bell joins us now from Normandy.
18:34Melissa, you, I'm told, are at Gold Beach.
18:37A beautiful picture there behind you.
18:40Talk to us more about what you're seeing, what you're hearing.
18:47Well, this is the beach amongst the Normandy beaches, Bjarne, where some of those
18:54servicemen arrived 80 years ago tomorrow.
18:57That's what all of these people out here are celebrating, the sacrifices that were made
19:02here on Gold Beach by British soldiers, further down Juno that way, Omaha the other way,
19:08where so many American servicemen and women died.
19:11And Harry here is very kind, kind of allowed us onto his vehicle.
19:16This is one of those that was used on D-Day.
19:19There are a lot of Dutch people as well here paying homage to the Dutch servicemen who
19:25lost their lives and who fought so bravely on that day.
19:28And really what's been extraordinary these last couple of days is seeing how many people
19:32have come out here to mark this event.
19:34Of course, as you said, the heads of state will be here.
19:37President Zelensky is coming.
19:39Joe Biden is already here.
19:41The French president has been making speeches throughout the day across Normandy to pay
19:46homage to the very many tens of thousands of civilian victims.
19:50But this is really about marking our respects to those servicemen, specifically those who
19:55came from the United States, came to a country they'd never seen, to liberate a people they
20:00hadn't known. And I think that's something we're likely to hear a great deal from the
20:04president, the American president, about the sort of historical line that can be drawn
20:08before between what was done on these beaches 80 years ago tomorrow by these very young
20:14men in the name of freedom, all that followed throughout the Cold War.
20:20Yeah, sadly, we've lost Melissa's incredibly beautiful live shot there, quite phenomenal
20:26to see her on that jeep there as she walked us through the events playing out today,
20:31obviously highlighting the 80th anniversary of D-Day.
20:36Our thanks to Melissa Bell for joining us from Normandy.
20:39Well, as world leaders reflect on the sacrifices made 80 years ago in Normandy, many look
20:44to Ukraine as a reminder of the ongoing battle to protect democracy.
20:48Its resistance to Russia's invasion is at a dark moment after a surprise attack on
20:53the Northeastern Kharkiv last month opened up a new front.
20:57Meanwhile, there are critical efforts underway to investigate and document the horrors
21:02happening on the ground.
21:03A new documentary, The Crane's Call, focuses on women doing just that.
21:08Longtime human rights expert Anya Nisdat, alongside her Ukrainian colleague
21:14Solomia Stasiv.
21:16Here's a clip from the film in which they visit a mass burial site in Yuzum.
21:23We know that there were some bodies found there with signs of executions, kind of hands
21:36tied behind and signs of torture.
21:42I need to find the families who can talk about it.
21:47Well, joining me now from London is the film's director, Laura Warner, and executive
21:52producer Evan Williams.
21:53Welcome, both of you. Congratulations, really, on a stunning piece of work.
21:58Obviously, this is something so recent, as we're commemorating 80 years ago today or
22:04tomorrow, actually, in Normandy, to now reflect on a war that's just two years, but
22:09still ongoing.
22:10And given all the technology we have now to document some of the same war crimes,
22:15sadly, that we've seen in wars of the past, thanks in large part to the women that we
22:20see in this film, largely led by Anya.
22:23Laura, tell us more about Anya.
22:26I mean, Anya is an extraordinary human being.
22:29She's been documenting Putin's war crimes for the last 20 years.
22:35So she has been documenting war crimes in Chechnya and Georgia and Syria.
22:40And as soon as the war broke out in Ukraine, Anya said, we need to go onto the ground.
22:46We know that war crimes will be committed and we need to be there to document them.
22:51And that's exactly what she did.
22:52And, you know, we're really privileged that she allowed us to come along and document
22:57her work while she was on the ground putting together these quite extraordinary
23:03lawsuits.
23:05Anya herself, being of Russian heritage, being born in Russia, her family has a
23:11history being human rights crusaders.
23:13Obviously, that was a different time in the country.
23:16She says she no longer recognizes the Russia today.
23:19You portray that in the film as well.
23:22She's left the country and now has returned to living in Ukraine, actually, after
23:27living in Paris as she continues her important work in Ukraine.
23:31Evan, the film opens with a staggering number, over 120,000 potential documented war
23:38crimes reported.
23:41How did this particular project come to you and talk about your vision and seeing it
23:47through?
23:48Well, when Russia invaded Ukraine, as filmmakers, we all got together and discussed.
23:53We wanted to do something on what was going on.
23:56And the big question was, what would be the most appropriate and the best way forward?
24:02Many films were being made about the actual conflict and the fighting.
24:05And then through contacts, we discovered that the Clooney Foundation for Justice had
24:09this project up and running through Anya and that they very generously accepted our
24:15application for exclusive access to Anya and her team as they then went through the
24:20process of that extensive war crimes investigation.
24:23Our commitment was to be with them from the beginning all the way through as much as we
24:26could on the ground with them at every point and to follow through the process and to
24:31present to the world what it was that they are trying to do with not just the
24:37investigation, but also in the way they're presenting the findings to criminal courts
24:42across Europe. And the hope is that they can open up these cases under what's called
24:47universal jurisdiction.
24:48These are criminal cases that will then go forward and that Russians, Russian commanders
24:54and soldiers will be on notice that they could be facing criminal charges, criminal
24:59courts in European criminal courts, and that this in a way may curtail, if not perhaps
25:06even prevent future war crimes from occurring.
25:09A very difficult task at hand.
25:12Obviously, it's laudable for her to be doing, she and others that you've worked with to
25:18do the work they've been doing.
25:19But it's very difficult not only to get brave witnesses to come forward, but to find
25:23concrete evidence as well.
25:25And it was interesting at one point in the film where Anya is quoted as saying that she's
25:30never seen so much evidence laid out, left behind by some of these Russian soldiers.
25:37I want to play a moment from the film where she and her partner, another Ukrainian who
25:42was her translator and played an important role in these investigations, actually came
25:48upon some of that evidence.
25:49I found something really good for you, you're really going to like it, look.
26:10Here there are cold signs, names, some numbers, I mean we need to go through it, but in theory
26:17something like that could help us to establish who were the people and units that were involved
26:23in the executions that we've just documented.
26:26So we found the list, they wrote places, like areas or towns or villages, and then on the
26:33right side, code names.
26:36This piece of paper identified the commander of the 1st Battalion.
26:41It's a freaking goldmine.
26:44It's a freaking goldmine, to quote Solomia.
26:47Laura, walk us through what Solomia and Anya actually discovered there.
26:51I mean, in that particular instance, it was a former school that the Russians had used
26:58as a base in a place called Izyum.
27:01And we arrived in Izyum literally two days after the Ukrainian soldiers had liberated
27:06it from the Russians.
27:08So it was, you know, everybody was very traumatized, it was a very difficult place for everybody
27:13to be working, Anya and ourselves included.
27:17And what they were trying to do was to find and document war crimes that had happened
27:22on the ground while the Russians had been there.
27:25And one of the cases that we discovered was of a Ukrainian writer, and he had been abducted
27:32and ultimately executed by the Russians.
27:36And we spoke to his mother, and Anya then basically went on the trail to try and find
27:43out what had happened to him, you know, who had taken him, what they had done to him.
27:49Because ultimately, until they can actually ascertain who the individuals were on the
27:54ground that had committed this crime and who their commanders are, they don't have a case.
27:59And so in many ways, although, you know, this film is set in a war zone, this is kind of,
28:06it's much more of a sort of crime, crime drama, a crime thriller in many ways, because they
28:12are literally looking for evidence on the ground of who has done it.
28:18And you know, there is the, there is the added frisson, of course, that anybody that decides
28:24to work with Anya and take their cases forward will ultimately be standing up in the public
28:30eye and saying, you know, I, I want accountability from Putin and his commanders.
28:38Yeah, and you portray that so effectively in this documentary.
28:43At times it does feel like a real thriller.
28:47And this particular writer, a famous poet whose death they tried to seek justice for
28:53and learn more about, I just have to say, I commend you for just giving him so much
29:00justice and such a, such a beautiful way of really honoring his work and life in this film.
29:09Evan, you've covered other war stories and the war crimes that have come out of them
29:15in some of your work.
29:16I'm just wondering where this particular war and some of the work that Anya and her team
29:21uncovered, where that and how that stacks up in the sense of just the evidence that
29:26they were able to find.
29:28Absolutely.
29:28And as Laura says, I've been blown away working with Anya and Salamir and the team.
29:35Following the way that they then approach these situations, they've got to do it in
29:39a way which is very open-minded and yet very professional.
29:42They can't get emotionally engaged in these things because they've got to acquire the
29:46information and the evidence in a certain way, which will then eventually be presented
29:50in courts.
29:51So being part of that process for the first time was a real eye-opener to me about how
29:56these things actually work, what you actually need, how you then go after the perpetrators,
30:01what information you need to put that case together.
30:04Normally, I've been in situations, for example, similar mass war crime situations where it's
30:10very much after the event.
30:12People are very traumatized.
30:13They remember, half remember things.
30:15There's no documentary evidence often about what happened.
30:19And so you have to piece it together in that way.
30:21But this is following people who are then getting the documentary evidence with the
30:26witness statements, then all the open source information, all the extra details they can
30:32get to put it together in a case.
30:34And following that process, I think, has been really amazing from a filmmaking point of
30:38view.
30:39And I must say also, Solomia there is very much the Ukrainian heart of the investigation.
30:45During the course of the filming, she started off not being involved in this sort of thing
30:49at all.
30:50Anya then brought her on board, and she very quickly became a very important and integral
30:55part of the investigation.
30:57And of course, through her eyes, as you see in the documentary, she's living and breathing
31:02the daily terrors and the conflicts of living in the war zone that all the Ukrainians are
31:07living every day.
31:08And Solomia, I have to say, I have a special place in my heart for her as well.
31:13We all do.
31:14Hearing her thinking Bob Marley is just a really poignant moment in this documentary.
31:22And Laura, as much as Anya and even Solomia are focused on doing their work and trying
31:27not to become too emotionally involved, the fact that you're able to win the trust of
31:33some of these victims to come forward, to tell their stories as they seek justice, especially
31:39for someone like Anya, who Russian-born, right, and getting them to trust her with their stories,
31:49with their dignity, that is really admirable.
31:53And that is something that you highlight in this film as well.
31:56She asks them numerous times, are you OK if you're on film?
32:00Can we use your name?
32:02And they were all determined to tell their stories because, again, they want to hold
32:07those perpetrators accountable.
32:10I mean, it was when we first started, when I say we first started filming, but obviously
32:15we were filming Anya arriving in Ukraine at the very beginning of the full-scale invasion.
32:20And I think one of the things that we really tried to put across, but it's almost impossible,
32:26is the sheer scale of what we're talking about.
32:29You know, as Evan just said, there were, you know, the Ukrainian prosecutors have now
32:34documented over 100,000 war crimes.
32:36And so you imagine we arrive in the country and it's like, where do you go?
32:42Who do you talk to?
32:44It is village after village after village of traumatised individuals who have lived
32:49through, I mean, some of the most horrific experiences.
32:53Some survived and some didn't.
32:55And obviously we, well, we're filming Anya doing her work, but there were numerous people
33:02who were really way too traumatised to be filmed by us.
33:06And of course, we would respect their wishes.
33:08But there were others who you see in the film who were absolutely adamant that what they
33:14want is justice.
33:15And it was quite extraordinary to see that, you know, what Anya is offering them through
33:22her legal work is agency.
33:27You know, they get a chance to stand up and say, what happened to me is unacceptable and
33:32I want justice.
33:33And I don't care if that justice is against Putin and his generals.
33:38I deserve it.
33:39And it's great to see these survivors actually, you know, getting accountability.
33:46Yeah.
33:47And there were so many in this film who I just found so touching.
33:52Their story is heartbreaking, especially moved by a father who survived a missile strike
33:59and his home, the father of a young son who was having a sleepover.
34:03I mean, again, what makes these stories so powerful now, two years into the war, is when
34:08you're hearing from everyday citizens who just want to lead a normal life, they're much
34:14more relatable, I think, sometimes than even the most detailed reporting.
34:19We hear from this father about this terrible night and this missile strike where his wife
34:24and one moment his wife, his son, his friend are all alive and then tragedy struck.
34:29I want to play a clip of him speaking.
35:08His son, his wife, sadly cannot come back, Evan, but the film closes with Anya trying
35:25to seek justice for him, for this father and many others by sending an email to German
35:32prosecutors.
35:34That really is a chilling and poignant moment in the film.
35:39Exactly.
35:40So all the work that they do, that we follow them doing in Ukraine, culminates in the moment
35:47where they pull the files together and they file the first three cases with German federal
35:52prosecutors.
35:54The cases are involving the poet you just mentioned and other men that were detained
35:59and executed.
36:01It also involved the case of Andrei there, whose family was tragically killed in that
36:06huge missile explosion, in fact two missiles that were fired at that civilian site.
36:11The German prosecutors have accepted the case files and are now going through their own
36:15due diligence to pursue the criminal cases, which is a major landmark advance, first of
36:22all for Anya's work and the team, but also in terms of using universal jurisdiction in
36:27this way in the Ukrainian war.
36:30More and more cases are coming forward.
36:31The team is not stopping there.
36:33They're going to be filing in other jurisdictions around the world and in Europe.
36:37So this is just the beginning point, but it shows that the work actually does work.
36:42All of this under the Cluny Foundation as well.
36:44And we should note for our viewers at home who want to see more of Anya, they can go
36:48back and look at Christiane Amanpour's interview with her from 2014 from another film where
36:55she is highlighted, it's called E-Team, about documenting war crimes in Syria.
37:01Laura Warner, Evan Williams, thank you so much for joining the program and congratulations
37:06on this really powerful film.
37:07Thank you very much.
37:09Thank you.
37:11And now we return to the U.S. presidential election and a question on minds of many people
37:15these days is how will Donald Trump's recent conviction influence women in the polling
37:20booth?
37:21Debbie Walsh is the director of the Center for American Women in Politics at Rutgers
37:25University, and she spoke with Michelle Martin on this and what energizes women to go out
37:30and vote.
37:31Thanks, Bianna.
37:32Debbie Walsh, thank you so much for talking with us.
37:34I'm glad to be with you.
37:36So, Debbie, you've spent a long time studying how women vote, how they run for office, basically
37:41how they function sort of in public life as director of the Center for American Women
37:47in Politics at Rutgers.
37:49So, in that vein, just briefly, I was just curious what your reaction was when the former
37:55President Donald Trump became the first former president convicted of a felony.
37:59I think my big takeaway from this is that this was not a surprise in his behavior.
38:07This was not out of character for who he has been.
38:12So the behavior wasn't shocking.
38:15I think I was a little amazed that they managed to get unanimity on all 34 counts.
38:28And I'm very curious to see, and I've been very curious watching since then, how this
38:34plays out and how the public is reacting to all of this.
38:37Based on your read of the data and based on your kind of knowledge of the subject, do
38:41you think this current event, this latest event, will have any impact on how women voters
38:49perceive him?
38:50You know, Michelle, I think that in some ways is the $64,000 question.
38:55I think for a lot of us after the Access Hollywood tape, we thought, well, this is going to clinch
39:02the election of Hillary Clinton.
39:05But we did see that those folks that are devoted to him were willing to let that go.
39:12Now, I think it's really important to always remember that women voters are not monolithic.
39:19There are women who are college-educated women and women without a college degree.
39:25There are women that you break down the women's vote by demographics and you get some very
39:30different outcomes.
39:32So there's sort of not that sweeping notion of how will women vote, but I think for the
39:38women who are solidly in his camp, the MAGA women, I don't think this will have an impact
39:45on how they feel.
39:46I think that in some ways it may even solidify how they feel about them.
39:51I think that for some of those more marginal women voters who have supported him, particularly
39:59the first time around, they have become what I think of in some ways as swing voters, that
40:06they could walk away from Donald Trump, that they are not happy with some of the policies
40:12that have come out of his time in the presidency, particularly around reproductive health issues.
40:21And this just may be a reminder of what you get when you get a Donald Trump presidency.
40:29And it may be more than they can handle.
40:31And they may turn away.
40:32Now, will they vote for Joe Biden?
40:34I don't know.
40:35They may just not be engaged.
40:37They may disengage from the political process.
40:39This verdict comes after a different jury found Donald Trump liable for sexually abusing
40:47the advice columnist, E. Jean Carroll.
40:49Of course, this happened before he was a candidate, but the testimony itself was very sort of
40:54disturbing.
40:55She was awarded millions of dollars as a judgment.
40:59So I guess the reason I raise that is that this comes after that.
41:02And I just sort of wonder just the political impact of both of those things together.
41:07Do you think that that has any sort of cumulative effect?
41:10Donald Trump has changed the nature of our politics and what is seen as acceptable.
41:20The idea, frankly, that you could get elected president of the United States after the Access
41:26Hollywood tape was shocking.
41:30Then you have the E. Jean Carroll case.
41:33Now you have the hush money case.
41:36All of these things in another era would have been disqualifying to be, frankly, to be convicted
41:46of on 34 counts of felony offenses.
41:51We would have thought that would be completely disqualifying.
41:54So all of the norms have really been disrupted by Donald Trump and the MAGA movement.
42:07And that is what has been so confounding in terms of watching how gender plays out in
42:16all of this, because I think there was the assumption always that, well, he would lose
42:21women.
42:22I don't think he cares anymore about picking up and expanding his base.
42:28He is happy with his base.
42:31The fact that after all of this, where was he seen after the trial?
42:35He was seen at a wrestling match with a lot of bros, frankly, cheering him on.
42:45And I think he's comfortable with that as his base.
42:48One of the things that you've pointed out in your own writings and your analysis of
42:54polling data going back for years is that white women have voted Republican in every
43:00election since 2000 in Bush v. Gore.
43:04Why do you think that is?
43:05I mean, because what it could mean is that, you know, party affiliation trumps, trumps,
43:09no pun intended, trumps all.
43:11And I think that was true in the first go round.
43:14I think white women were uncomfortable with the Access Hollywood tape, but at the end
43:21of the day, they were Republicans and they voted Republican.
43:24I think it's also important to note that white women are not monolithic.
43:28So there are college educated white women who are more likely to vote Democratic.
43:34There are non-college educated white women who are more likely to vote Republican.
43:39There are single white women who have leaned more towards the Democratic Party.
43:47Economics has something to do with this.
43:50College education has something to do with this.
43:53And so there is variation even within that demographic.
43:59One of the issues that we see driving voters is the Dobbs decision.
44:03And we find that women are still having abortions, but it's become very difficult, especially
44:08in certain parts of the country.
44:10And we've seen that this has had an effect on women's voting behavior.
44:13Can you sort of talk about that?
44:14I mean, so far, the only way this has played out has been in the states.
44:19But what effect do you think this might have?
44:22I think this is a mobilizing issue.
44:25And it's a mobilizing issue that the Democratic Party learned from the midterms could be powerful
44:30for them.
44:32The red wave that was predicted in the midterm elections didn't happen.
44:39And it largely didn't happen because of that energy that went into the campaigning that
44:45the Democratic Party did, the prioritizing of the abortion issue.
44:50And Donald Trump has said, you know, I did this, I'm responsible.
44:54And the Democratic Party is now pinning it on him and saying, he did this.
44:58This is Donald Trump.
44:59And we've seen that even in some early ads from the Biden campaign.
45:04So campaigns are about informing voters around issues and energizing them to get out to vote.
45:15And if there's not something that is an impetus to actually show up to vote, even if you're
45:22a solid Democratic voter, if you don't feel energized and you don't show up on Election
45:27Day, it doesn't matter.
45:30So this is an issue that can help with turnout, that can get people out to vote, women out
45:36to vote in an election that they might be a little, you know, a little disinterested.
45:43I mean, we've seen some Pew data that shows that voters are tired, that they are tired
45:50and exhausted by the news carrying so much about this election already and about politics.
45:58And they're getting burnt out.
45:59But this issue is very pressing.
46:01And I think it can be an issue that will turn out women voters, energize them and get them
46:07to the polls.
46:08We saw that to be a powerful force in those midterm elections.
46:11OK, so let's wheel it around and talk about the Democrats, especially, you know, President
46:16Biden.
46:17A recent Reuters Ipsos poll released this month, which was prior to the Trump conviction,
46:22I have to say, showed that President Biden is losing support among voters without college
46:27degrees.
46:28And that's a big group.
46:29And it's a diverse group.
46:30It includes a lot of black voters, a lot of Latinas, young voters, suburban women.
46:37Why do you think that is?
46:39I think the party has to be speaking to issues that folks in these communities care about
46:45and making the case, which is what this campaign will need to be about, making the case that
46:52the priorities of this administration, not just what they've done, but what they plan
46:57to do, really speaks to those needs.
47:00That's why, particularly for women voters, speaking to these issues around reproductive
47:06health care are critical and important, also for young women, critically important.
47:12But there we know that those top issues for voters are the economy and immigration.
47:20And when the most recent polling that I've seen still has those two issues at the very
47:25top and abortion coming in as a third top issue, it has definitely moved up in the hierarchy.
47:32This used to be something that was, when it was settled and people thought this was safe,
47:37they didn't go there.
47:38That wasn't on the top of their agenda.
47:41It has definitely moved up.
47:42But there has to be a case made to those voters that this administration has done things that
47:49benefit them, and it has to make a case that the plans for the future also include them.
47:56And this is a challenge I think that the Democratic Party has had, which is taking groups of voters
48:01for granted.
48:04Black women voters have been the backbone of the Democratic Party.
48:09They have been the group that has been most consistent, most there for the Democratic
48:14Party, and gotten candidates elected across the board.
48:18But black women voters are demanding, as they should, to see actual benefit from that vote.
48:26What is it that you have done for us?
48:29And that's what the campaign has to be about.
48:32Do you think that the Democrats and the Biden campaign in particular have spoken enough
48:39about the future?
48:40I mean, former President Trump has.
48:42He said what he plans to do.
48:44He's going to try to purge the federal bureaucracy of people who he thinks are obstructionist.
48:50Have the Democrats answered that with anything?
48:52I think that the challenge that the Democrats have had is clearly enunciating what has been
48:59done over these four years and the ways in which it's benefited people.
49:04Because I think that it doesn't in day to day life, even if inflation seems to be coming
49:09down and the economy seems to be on a better footing, the general public isn't feeling
49:15it.
49:16And if they don't feel it, it's not real for them.
49:19But I think you're absolutely right.
49:21I think there has to be statements about what's coming in the future.
49:26And it can't just be be very afraid of Donald Trump.
49:31It also has to be about the value added that four more years of the Democrats holding the
49:39White House and the Senate and possibly gaining control of the House, what that will mean
49:46in their lives.
49:47And that has to be articulated in a very clear way so that folks feel that it's to their
49:54advantage to have Democrats in control.
49:57I want to ask you to drill down again on women as voters, recognizing, as you said, that
50:02women are certainly not a monolith.
50:04Is there something that has changed for women in the way women see elections?
50:10I will say that even in this upside down world where the conventional wisdom is out the window,
50:17we still see when you aggregate the women's vote, a gender gap.
50:22We still see women voting in a different way than men.
50:28We see that women overall are more likely to support the Democratic candidate than men,
50:35less likely to support the Republican candidate than men.
50:38And even within the support that Donald Trump gets, it is less than, it is more from men
50:48than from women.
50:49So there is still, there is still that gender gap.
50:53And we still have seen women outvoting men.
50:58In the last election, you know, 10 million more women voted than did men.
51:03So at the end of the day, even in all the chaos, even in all the upside downness of
51:09the world, we are still seeing that pattern of women voting differently than men and seeing
51:15women outvoting men.
51:17So the problem then for the Democrats is the enthusiasm gap.
51:20That is their big, the silly scale.
51:22That is a big challenge for the Democrats, that turning out those women from various
51:30demographic groups, from various education backgrounds, getting them to show up at the
51:35polls to feel they have a stake in this election, that they are not so turned off completely
51:43from politics.
51:44One of the things that Donald Trump did do by getting elected was he energized women,
51:50right?
51:52So we saw women running at record numbers in 2018.
51:55We're not seeing that this time.
51:57We're not, we're not not seeing women running, but we're not breaking records.
52:03We saw women engaging in activism in ways that we had not seen in a long time.
52:10You know, women who I think felt like they didn't have to be involved in politics suddenly
52:15felt like they needed to be involved in politics.
52:19But I think there's a certain level of exhaustion from politics.
52:23I think there's watching Congress look broken, looking like this system doesn't work.
52:29And they're tired and they're just tired of it.
52:32And so making sure that they're tapping into some issues that are really key, and again,
52:38making voters feel like they have a real stake in the outcome, that it matters to their lives
52:47what the outcome of this election is, regardless of, you know, your position about Donald
52:54Trump and the issues he cares about, he has made his voters believe that their futures
53:00are dependent on him getting elected, that their lives and their livelihoods and their
53:07futures hinge on his election.
53:12And in some way, the Biden administration has to, the Biden campaign has to, and the
53:17Democrats have to make Democratic voters and independent voters believe that about about
53:24electing Democrats.
53:26As part of your work at the Center for American Women in Politics, you keep track of what
53:30women voters are doing, but you also keep track of what women candidates are doing.
53:35What are you paying attention to?
53:37What are you keeping your eye on as we head to November?
53:40Well, we're keeping our eye on candidates across the board.
53:43Our state legislative numbers are actually looking a little bit better than our federal
53:48candidates.
53:49And I think we may be seeing record numbers there.
53:53There's still lots of primaries left to happen.
53:56But we're looking particularly at the states now, because so much of what's going on is
54:00happening at the states.
54:02And I think for a lot of women who may have been thinking about running, you know, they're
54:08looking again at Congress as a place that's broken.
54:11But state legislatures have a real impact on people's lives, particularly around these
54:16issues around reproductive health, right?
54:19We're also looking now in ways that we haven't in the past, looking at women as donors to
54:25candidates and also the money that flows into women, women's candidacies, and really trying
54:32to do some deep dive analysis and understanding about women as donors.
54:38Who are they?
54:39We may not love the fact that money plays such an important part in politics, but that
54:43is the reality.
54:44So hoping that women are are helping get the candidates they care about elected by supporting
54:51them financially as well.
54:53Debbie Walsh, thank you so much for talking with us.
54:56Thank you.
54:57And finally, remembering Alexei Navalny, the opposition leader who died in a Russian prison
55:02in February, is seen as a hero by many on both sides, inside and outside of his country.
55:08And yesterday would have been his 48th birthday.
55:11In Berlin, thousands attended a concert in his memory, chanting the slogan, Russia will
55:16be free.
55:27Navalny's wife, Yulia, who also attended the concert, has accused Russian President Vladimir
55:31Putin of murdering her husband.
55:34The Kremlin has denied any involvement in his death.
55:37Of course, Alexei Navalny will not be forgotten.
55:41And that's it for our program tonight.
55:43If you want to find out what's coming up on the show each night, sign up for our newsletter
55:47at PBS.org slash Amanpour.
55:50Thank you so much for watching Amanpour & Company on PBS.
55:52Join us again tomorrow night.