Ahead of the opening ceremony of the Summer Olympics in Paris, Christiane speaks with two-time tennis Olympic gold medallist Andy Murray. French Sports Minister Amélie Oudéa-Castéra discusses preparing a city to host the Olympics and how sports can rise above politics. Michael Waters explores the history of transgender athletes and the Olympics in his new book “The Other Olympians.”
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00:00Hello, everyone, and welcome to Amanpour & Co. from Paris.
00:09Here's what's coming up.
00:14Let the games begin.
00:15We have a special show as the Paris Olympics kick off.
00:18First...
00:19I love tennis, but I'm not able to train and prepare as well as I used to.
00:24Two-time Olympic tennis champion Andy Murray joins us
00:27as he announces Paris will be his farewell to the profession.
00:32And...
00:33We are very focused, very concentrated.
00:35We have very well prepared,
00:37but we know it's a heavy responsibility on our shoulders,
00:41but we are up to the challenge.
00:43Can sport unite a fractured France and a fractured world?
00:47I ask the sports minister, Amélie Oudéa-Castérac, also ahead.
00:52It strikes me that we've been having the same conversation
00:56kind of over and over again,
00:58and often a race from all of this is the athletes themselves.
01:02The other Olympians.
01:03Author Michael Waters tells Hari Sreenivasan
01:06about the gripping true stories of pioneering trans
01:10and intersex athletes competing in the 1930s.
01:23Amenpour & Co. is made possible by
01:26Jim Atwood and Leslie Williams
01:29Candice King Weir
01:31The Sylvia A. and Simon B. Poita Programming Endowment
01:35to Fight Anti-Semitism
01:37The Family Foundation of Leila and Mickey Strauss
01:41Mark J. Bleschner
01:43The Philemon A. & B. Poita Programming Endowment
01:47The Family Foundation of Leila and Mickey Strauss
01:50Mark J. Bleschner
01:52The Philemon M. D'Agostino Foundation
01:55Seton J. Melvin
01:57The Peter G. Peterson & Joan Gantz Cooney Fund
02:00Charles Rosenblum
02:02Kou & Patricia Ewen
02:04Committed to Bridging Cultural Differences in Our Communities
02:08Barbara Hope Zuckerberg
02:10Jeffrey Katz & Beth Rogers
02:12And by contributions to your PBS station from viewers like you.
02:19Welcome to the program, everyone.
02:21I'm Christiane Amanpour in Paris,
02:23where the Olympic flame is making its way through this city of light
02:27before tomorrow's opening ceremony.
02:30100 years since they held their last Summer Games.
02:33That was 1924.
02:35Athletes from 206 Olympic national teams
02:38are descending on the French capital
02:41as the world tries to unite
02:43and the Olympic ideals of excellence, respect and friendship.
02:47These games will see the return of superstar champions
02:51like the British diving prodigy Tom Daley,
02:54the Jamaican sprinter Shelley-Anne Fraser-Price
02:57and, of course, the American gymnast Simone Biles.
03:01It'll be an Olympiad like no other with new sports,
03:04such as breaking, also known as breakdancing.
03:07And for the first time ever, there will be gender parity.
03:11More than 10,000 male and female athletes competing side by side.
03:16My first guest tonight knows these games very well.
03:20The British tennis star Andy Murray
03:22is the only man to take gold twice in men's singles.
03:26We met here earlier this morning ahead of his training
03:29for this, his final professional competition.
03:34Andy Murray, welcome to the program.
03:37It's a big deal, this, right?
03:39Not only are you in the Olympics for your country,
03:42but you're retiring after this.
03:44Are there all sorts of mixed emotions?
03:47Right now, not really.
03:49A couple of months ago, I definitely was...
03:52I was unsure about when I wanted to finish
03:55or if I wanted to finish.
03:57I was finding the...
03:59You know, making that decision quite difficult
04:01and I obviously consulted, you know, my family and my team.
04:04But ultimately, you know, the decision had to come from me
04:08but as I, like, sit here today, I'm really happy about it.
04:12I'm happy that I get to finish playing in the Olympics
04:15with, you know, a lot of my...
04:17You know, I consider a lot of the tennis players on our team
04:20like close friends of mine and getting to be around them
04:23and, you know, have great memories from the Olympics.
04:26So, you know, I'm happy about it.
04:28You know, we're all obviously really watching this business
04:32of age and retirement.
04:33Obviously, Joe Biden has stepped off the stage.
04:36You know, Nadal, we don't know what he's doing.
04:39Federer has stepped off the stage.
04:41He did a whole movie about his retirement.
04:43We don't know what's going to happen with Djokovic.
04:46You know, everybody in your profession
04:48seems to have so many injuries.
04:50You're obviously young.
04:51You know, you're being forced...
04:53I don't feel it.
04:54You don't feel it? No.
04:55How do you feel?
04:57I mean, mentally, I still feel young,
04:59but physically, you know, the last few years
05:01have been really hard for me.
05:03I've gone through quite a lot of surgeries,
05:05and I've had a lot of injuries, and...
05:08Yeah, and that's why I'm ready to finish playing,
05:11because, you know, I'm still very competitive,
05:13and I want to be out there.
05:15I love tennis,
05:16but I'm not able to train and prepare as well as I used to.
05:19Here we are at the Olympics.
05:21You are a two-time Olympic winner, gold medalist.
05:24You've won Wimbledon twice.
05:26You've won the US Open twice.
05:2846, you know, titles.
05:30And you've been number one,
05:32and you helped your country win the Davis Cup in 2015.
05:35How do you feel today about your accomplishments,
05:38on and off the court?
05:40Um...
05:41I'm really proud of what I've achieved.
05:44I've worked extremely hard throughout my career.
05:47I've given, you know, I feel like,
05:50as much as I could to my profession.
05:53You know, I feel like I've worked hard,
05:57and I'm proud of what I've achieved.
06:00Obviously, you know, when you look back and reflect on things...
06:04..or the way I am,
06:06there's always things I wish I'd done a bit differently, probably,
06:09and there's a few regrets in there,
06:11but on the whole, yeah, I did as best as I could,
06:14and I'm comfortable with that.
06:16And what do the Olympics mean to you?
06:18Because it's somewhat different than a Grand Slam event,
06:21mentally, I suppose, and in terms of teamwork.
06:24Yeah, it is different, and I've always fed off that.
06:27I've really enjoyed the whole team, you know, atmosphere,
06:31and, you know, that's been a big reason
06:34for why I've played some of my best tennis,
06:37and, you know, when I've competed for my country,
06:40you're playing for something just bigger than yourself,
06:43and I've really enjoyed that.
06:45And you ended a 77-year drought
06:47in men's singles winners at Wimbledon.
06:49I mean, that must have felt incredible as well.
06:52It... I mean, when I look back at it, yeah,
06:55I mean, it was...
06:57You know, it was an amazing day for me,
06:59and I think for, you know, sports fans in the UK,
07:02it had been, like you said, it had been a long time.
07:05At the time, I didn't take it in as much as I wish I had done.
07:10I just felt so relieved to finally, you know, finally have done it.
07:14I'd come close quite a few times,
07:16and I guess that was sort of almost what I felt like.
07:20My whole career was sort of building towards,
07:23was trying to win Wimbledon, and if I hadn't have done that,
07:26I probably would have felt like I'd failed in some way.
07:30And because of that, I didn't fully appreciate it.
07:33I just kind of... I was, like, just relieved it had happened.
07:37But then when I look back, like, a few weeks later,
07:40I was like, well, it doesn't end here.
07:42Like, I keep going. You know, what's next?
07:45It was quite... It was quite strange.
07:48What about fans?
07:50I mean, you know, I wonder whether there's a lot of burden you feel
07:54or you have felt throughout your career.
07:56You know, you have a really funny
07:59and sometimes grumpy demeanour on court.
08:02Sometimes is a polite way of putting it, yeah.
08:06And then you are funny and the crowd loves you,
08:09and I remember that long, crazy match in the Australian Open,
08:12I don't know, ended at three in the morning or something crazy,
08:15and you got this huge ovation and everybody stayed to watch you.
08:19What have you taken from the crowd throughout your career,
08:23from the beginning and then as you got better and better?
08:26Yeah, that's probably the thing that I'll...
08:29Well, I'll definitely miss that a lot when I finish.
08:32Like, I think anyone that's playing in professional sport,
08:36like, you want to be playing on the biggest courts and, you know,
08:39in front of... I never minded if the crowd were for or against me.
08:43We were just playing in brilliant atmospheres and...
08:46Really? You never minded?
08:48No, no. I mean, if I was playing in the UK
08:52and, you know, the crowd weren't behind me,
08:55then, you know, you would probably feel that a little bit,
08:58but, you know, when we were playing Davis Cup matches away from home
09:01and playing sort of hostile environments,
09:04like, yeah, I loved that, I enjoyed that,
09:07and there's some of the matches that you remember the most, really.
09:11It's weird for some of us who like and enjoy sports
09:15and then we see, for instance, let's say the British soccer team,
09:18football team, you know, they're often hated or lionised
09:22and I just wondered, why do you think people are like that sometimes
09:26with their own teams, fans, I mean, and the media and the tabloids?
09:31Yeah, it's a fine balance.
09:33Like, obviously, like, trying to win Wimbledon, you know,
09:36I got close quite a few times before doing it
09:38and each time you lost and didn't quite get there,
09:41it felt like there was almost like a backlash, a disappointment
09:45for not achieving that when actually, you know,
09:48making the final of Wimbledon, like, big picture,
09:51is a brilliant result, really, you know,
09:55when the football teams have come close and not quite done it.
10:01I don't know, like, I'm not sure exactly why there is, you know,
10:05a big sort of backlash or negativity around that,
10:10but it's definitely there and, you know, for sure,
10:12the athletes, you know, they feel that.
10:15Throughout your career, do you feel you've been supported,
10:18not only by your own team, obviously, and your family,
10:21but by competitors?
10:23I always, especially tennis,
10:25don't you all end up in the same locker room, you travel?
10:28You know, it's quite interesting to see how you get out there
10:32and it's, you know, mano a mano combat for several hours on the court,
10:36but then there's the handshake, obviously,
10:38and then there's, I guess, the socialising and the friendships
10:41afterwards and despite it all.
10:44Yeah, and it is like a big family travelling with each other
10:47and there's, you know, I've had disagreements and issues
10:51over the years with, you know, not lots of players,
10:54but, you know, it has happened.
10:57But then, now that I'm coming to the end,
11:00I sort of wish I hadn't or tried to resolve some of them sooner
11:05because, at the end of the day, it's sport
11:08and, you know, it's not that important in the big picture.
11:12It feels, at the time, to us like it is,
11:15but, yeah, it's like one big family travelling
11:18and, you know, you want to be respected and liked
11:21by the people that you're working with.
11:24You know, you bring up something interesting, want to be liked.
11:27Everybody says Djokovic is big, sort of,
11:30maybe his mental frailty is wanting to be liked.
11:33Yeah, look, I think, obviously, at times it's been difficult for him
11:37because, you know, Nadal and Federer,
11:41before Novak became, you know, the best player in the world
11:45and, you know, in terms of title and everything,
11:48the best, you know, the best male player,
11:51you know, he's won the most Grand Slams
11:54and had an unbelievable career that, you know,
11:57Rafa and Roger were so loved and had a brilliant rivalry.
12:01I think Novak has huge support around the world,
12:05but, yeah, I think at times it has been difficult for him
12:10to not maybe feel the same support from the crowd
12:14as Rafa and Roger got,
12:17but, you know, he still does have massive support around the world.
12:21I think he's extremely well respected, you know,
12:24not just in tennis but in world sports
12:27because of all of, you know, because of all of his achievements.
12:30And I think at times he's thrived on that as well,
12:33you know, when the crowd hasn't been behind him.
12:36He's played some of his best tennis and his best matches
12:39when that hasn't been the case,
12:41so in a strange way it's maybe helped him achieve more.
12:44But, yeah, I think, you know, it's been hard for him at times.
12:48So you've been, you know, on Safari we talk about the big five,
12:51the big five, you know, beasts that you try to find.
12:54There was the big four at Wimbledon,
12:56you and Rafa and Federer and Novak.
12:59What was it like being part of that pantheon of real greats
13:03and for a long time?
13:05And now I'm afraid you're all sort of...
13:08Were you leaving, Federer's left?
13:10As I said, we don't know about Novak and Nadal.
13:13Yeah, I mean, look, I didn't achieve anything close
13:16to what any of those guys did,
13:18but there was a period where, you know,
13:20often we were competing at the latter stages of all of the major events.
13:25Look, it was...
13:27To be successful in this period has been very hard.
13:31You know, not many players manage to win grand slams
13:34and, you know, get right close to the top of the rankings.
13:37I mean, like I said, it's been amazing
13:39what all three of them have achieved in the same period.
13:43I don't think that we'll see that level of dominance again in tennis.
13:49But, yeah, I'm proud of the small part that I played in that
13:53and I think the achievements that I had in this period, yeah,
13:58mean a lot because of how great those guys have been
14:01and how hard it has been to win major events during this period.
14:05So it's been special to see how they've also driven each other
14:09to go to the levels that they have and achieve what they have.
14:12So, yeah.
14:14And who would... If I asked you who you would bet on,
14:17who you would see as the next great,
14:20is it Alkaraz, who's already great?
14:22Is it Sinner, who's already great, well, he's number one?
14:25Who is it in the men and the women, in fact?
14:28Yeah, so it's always difficult because you don't know
14:31the next sort of 16-, 17-year-old that's coming through.
14:34I won't have watched them play and I don't know.
14:37Maybe there's some young players that come through in the next few years
14:41that are better than all of the players at the top just now.
14:45But for me, I love watching Alkaraz play.
14:48He's obviously achieved great things,
14:50so it's easy to sit here now and say that,
14:53but when I watched him and played against him the first time a few years ago,
14:57I just loved the way that he went about things.
15:00He's got a great game and he's already won four majors
15:04and I think will win many more, providing he stays healthy.
15:07And on the women's side, Iga Sviatek.
15:11She's, you know, she's a brilliant, brilliant player.
15:16She's done extremely well particularly on the clay courts
15:19and she can make a few adjustments on the other surfaces.
15:22I would expect her to go on and win lots more majors.
15:26It was noted when you took a woman coach, Amelie Moresmo,
15:31and you were, I think, the first male player to have a female coach,
15:35and then came out all these, you know, you really put yourself
15:39noticeably behind equality and equity for women in this sport
15:44and maybe throughout life.
15:46What is it that made you not only have those feelings
15:50but actually speak about it and promote the women's game as well?
15:55Well, it wasn't something I'd really, you know,
15:58when I was in my teenage years or like early 20s on the tour,
16:02it wasn't something I'd given much thought to.
16:04I was focusing on my own career and wasn't, you know,
16:07thinking about much, much else, to be honest.
16:09And then when I started working with Amelie,
16:12things changed for me quite a lot because I obviously recognised
16:16there was a big change in attitude in terms of, well,
16:19the way that players in the locker room were talking to me about her
16:23and, you know, even people who were part of my team.
16:26Negatively?
16:28Yeah, negatively.
16:30You know, the media were obviously very interested in the story,
16:33but each time I lost, I got asked a lot of questions about my coach
16:37and Amelie had never experienced that before.
16:40You know, I realised that this was different
16:43and around that time, I started to have a few more conversations
16:46with my mum about what it's like.
16:48She's worked in tennis for a long time as a female coach
16:51and some of the difficulties and challenges that she's had
16:54and, you know, it was quite eye-opening for me
16:57and that was sort of when I started to realise
17:00that things needed to change a bit.
17:02I mean, even at the French Open this year,
17:04it was noted that a lot of the good women's matches
17:07were during the day and never in the sort of primetime slot in the evening.
17:11Do you think that there is a way still to go,
17:14even though in the Grand Slams they have equal pay?
17:17Yeah, I think there is still a way to go,
17:21but I also think that tennis is one of the best sort of global sports
17:26in terms of how they treat men and women.
17:30It's definitely not perfect,
17:32but I feel like tennis should probably celebrate that side of things
17:35more, the fact that there is equal pay,
17:37that the men and women are always, particularly at major events,
17:40are always competing on the same stage together.
17:43And I think that's one of the brilliant things about tennis
17:47and shouldn't be looked on negatively.
17:49I think it's a positive thing, it's a great message.
17:52I fully support that.
17:54You mentioned your mother, the famous Judy Murray,
17:57who coached you, your brother,
17:59and has been, as you say, a power in tennis and as a female coach.
18:03Now, tell me what it was like being baby Andy Murray,
18:06you know, in the grips of your mum,
18:09who turned you into this.
18:11Did you want to do it?
18:13Yeah, so me and my brother, my memories of us growing up,
18:17we just played all sports together,
18:21whether that was table tennis, squash, gymnastics, golf.
18:26Some of these sports we'd do with our dad.
18:29Our dad played a lot of squash and golf,
18:31and that's, you know, me and my brother would play that with him.
18:34And our holidays, we'd...
18:36..we just played sport.
18:38That was what we loved doing.
18:40Me and my brother were 15 months apart in age,
18:42and obviously with our mum being a tennis coach
18:45and particularly coaching younger players,
18:48she had an understanding of how to teach not just tennis,
18:51but, you know, other sports and hand-eye coordination,
18:54things like that.
18:56So, yeah, just we grew up in that environment,
18:59and, you know, our parents, they never pushed us to play tennis.
19:03There were times when my brother stopped playing tennis for six months
19:06and was playing golf,
19:08and I was focusing more on playing football than tennis.
19:11But, yeah, at one stage, you know,
19:13we both decided that that was what we wanted to do,
19:16and our parents, you know, were unbelievably supportive.
19:19And although at times money was tough,
19:22like, they did everything they could to give us a chance to...
19:25I went to train over in Spain when I was 15.
19:28My brother went to train in France when he was 14, 15 as well.
19:33And, yeah, they supported us as best as they could
19:37and gave us a chance to, you know, live our dream, really.
19:41Apparently, it's been said in the press
19:43that your mother wants to create a...
19:46I don't know whether it's a Murray Centre
19:48or a centre, a tennis centre in Dunblane
19:50where you were born and where you came from.
19:52And Billie Jean King said she hopes the LTA and others
19:55will help support that.
19:57Do you think that that will happen?
19:59Is that something that you will also get behind?
20:01I hope that it happens. Whether it will or not, I don't know, to be honest.
20:06But, yeah, my mum has been trying for a long time
20:10to try and have, you know,
20:13a centre that's, you know, there for the community.
20:19Yeah, to have some form of legacy
20:21for what me and my brother have achieved throughout our career.
20:25That hasn't been the case in Scotland yet.
20:27And, obviously, with me and my brother coming to the end of our career,
20:30I think it's something that my mum has really, really wanted.
20:33And with me and Jamie finishing playing soon,
20:37you know, we'll have the opportunity to be up in Scotland more.
20:40And, you know, I will always love tennis
20:42and always want to be involved in it.
20:44And, you know, we'll try and help, you know,
20:46the next young, you know, British tennis player as much as I can.
20:51And, yeah, I think it would be good
20:53if there was a tennis centre up there.
20:55Many people try to trace back where does drive and ambition
20:58and turning-point moments in young people's lives come from?
21:02Obviously, everybody knows what happened in Dunblane,
21:05the worst British school shooting ever in history at your school.
21:09Do you, when you look back, think that that gave you drive?
21:16I mean, it's impossible to say.
21:19I think that certain things that I've learned from that
21:24throughout my upbringing, through my life,
21:27it was obviously an unbelievably difficult time.
21:29But, you know, the way that the whole city and community,
21:35you know, came together in a really difficult, extremely difficult time
21:41and has, you know, eventually never fully recovered
21:46but has become stronger through that,
21:48like, I definitely learned a lot of strong values from that.
21:55You know, I also, I think also from growing up
21:59with a brother very close in age
22:01that that's something I was constantly competing with him as well.
22:05And, you know, I think that that would have helped
22:08sort of grow my competitive instincts, competitive drive.
22:12Yeah, it is hard to put your finger on one thing.
22:15Billie Jean King, who I know you admire a lot,
22:18has said pressure is a privilege.
22:20And yet it seems that pressure is so intense now.
22:23Maybe it was different when she was, you know, at her height.
22:26It seems it's even more obvious now on all sports,
22:29especially tennis, because you play a very long season,
22:32I mean, a long year.
22:34Is pressure a privilege?
22:38I think it is, providing you...
22:41Well, you have to manage pressure in the right way.
22:45You know, I've found playing tennis at times, you know,
22:48very, you know, very stressful,
22:50you know, the competing side of things.
22:53In the moment, it's not something I'm really enjoying,
22:56but the reward at the end of it, when you win is brilliant.
23:00When you lose, you know, it's hard
23:02and you need, you know, a strong team around you
23:05to support you, you know, support you through that.
23:08But, yeah, I think it has changed now.
23:10There is a lot of focus on sports
23:13and, you know, everyone knows how tricky social media
23:16and things like that can be to manage at times.
23:19But, yeah, it should be.
23:21And, you know, I'm aware now, like, looking back,
23:24how lucky I was to be in the position that I was
23:27to compete for Wimbledon or Olympic Games and things like that.
23:31And if you can remind yourself that when you were a child
23:34or when you were first starting out as a professional athlete
23:37that, you know, you would have signed up to be in this position
23:42and play on the biggest arenas and stages in the world,
23:45you know, you'll be OK.
23:47And if your four kids wanted to go into tennis
23:50or any other competitive sport, what would you say?
23:53Yeah, I would... I'm not saying I would just push them towards tennis,
23:56but I would encourage them to be involved in sport.
23:58I think it teaches lots of amazing lessons in life.
24:01You know, I got to travel the world as a tennis player
24:04when I was 11, 12 years old and experienced things
24:06that I would have never experienced, you know,
24:09if I wasn't playing in sport.
24:11I think it teaches you about, you know, winning and losing
24:15and how to work hard and how to, you know,
24:18recover from setbacks and teamwork.
24:21So, yeah, if they wanted to be involved in sports,
24:24I would definitely encourage that.
24:26Andy Murray, good luck in the Olympics.
24:28Thanks for being with us. Thank you.
24:31Andy Murray getting ready to play in the doubles for the British team.
24:35Now, every Olympics draws the gaze of the entire world
24:39and managing these games also comes at a sensitive time for France.
24:43Its politics remain divided after a snap election
24:46denied the far right becoming the majority party in Parliament.
24:50I asked the French sports minister, Amélie Oudea-Castera,
24:54about her labour of love getting Paris ready for the world's athletes
24:59and sports that are meant to rise above politics.
25:03Madam Minister, welcome to the programme.
25:07So, look, it couldn't look more majestic, beautiful, unbelievable,
25:11but you've been preparing for ages.
25:13What is your feeling right now on the eve of the opening ceremonies?
25:17Well, it's a mix of stress, because we want everything to be perfect,
25:22excitement, because we know we are ready,
25:25and a will, an authentic will to really give happiness to the whole world
25:30through that opening ceremony and these Olympics
25:33and to give, you know, a sense of pride to the French people.
25:37It's interesting you say that at this time,
25:40because there's so much to be unhappy about
25:42and to be nervous about in the world.
25:45So you're right, these sports do...
25:47And we're hearing all the police fans and all the security.
25:50Security is always an issue.
25:52Can you assure the French people and the athletes and the spectators
25:57that this is 100% safe?
26:00We've put all effort to secure that.
26:04We've been anticipating all types of threats.
26:08We are monitoring them extremely closely with the greatest attention.
26:12We have also mobilised a very wide number of security forces,
26:18either on the public side with 45,000 security forces,
26:27almost 20,000 military forces.
26:31There will be for the opening ceremony 6,000 private security officers.
26:37We also rely on international cooperation, on a number of key expertise.
26:42We have put some security perimeters well in advance
26:46to secure that we control every move, all identities.
26:53So we really have aligned all the conditions
26:56to make it a very, very safe place.
26:58Does anything worry you in the lead-up?
27:00We've heard of some arrests, some concerns.
27:03Is that normal run of the mill for any of these kind of big events?
27:07Yeah, that's the normal run.
27:09I mean, it's good that we find difficulties,
27:12we've identified people that should not be there
27:15or present some risks, not very intense risks.
27:19But it's good that our measures prove effective.
27:25We are watching every single detail
27:30and trying to control all what we see.
27:33So I'm really confident.
27:36I want to say how honoured we are to welcome the world.
27:39We know it's a complex, fragmented and dangerous world.
27:43We know there are some possible attacks.
27:47We know there are some threats again.
27:51And we have done everything under the leadership
27:55of the Ministry of Interior Affairs and the Minister, Gérald Darmanin,
27:59to make sure that everything is controlled.
28:02And now for something more mundane or not, the water, the sand,
28:05which is the site of the opening ceremonies.
28:08There's wonderful pictures of you along with the mayor, Annie Hidalgo.
28:12Swimming, not too long ago, a couple of weeks ago.
28:16And you've paid a huge amount of money and effort to cleaning it up
28:22because it's hugely polluted.
28:24Are you absolutely sure that it's safe?
28:26No E. coli, no nothing right now?
28:29No, it will be absolutely safe.
28:32And we monitor every day, even twice a day,
28:36the quality of the indicators, the thresholds, their evolution,
28:40their resilience to changes in weather conditions.
28:44And I can say that we're going to be ready.
28:47We're going to be ready as soon as July 30 for the triathlon
28:52and then for the swimming in the sand, the swimming marathon.
28:56And we will also be ready for the Paralympics at the end of the summer.
29:01It's been, as you mentioned, a very large project
29:07with heavy funding from the state.
29:10Overall, the state, together with the local authorities,
29:14we've invested 1.2 billion euros in that ambition.
29:20But we are very, very proud to realise that, you know,
29:25we've completed 100% of our action plan.
29:28And it will be, even though many other cities who've hosted the Olympics
29:31have fabulous rivers running through them,
29:33it will be the first such Olympics, right,
29:35where the river is such a central part of the Games
29:40and of the opening ceremony.
29:42Yeah, and it's going to be beautiful.
29:44And what's more, it's going to be useful for the French people
29:47and for the tourists and visitors from all over the world
29:51because in 2025, we will authorise the swimming, the bathing, for everyone.
29:57So you will be able to enjoy, when you come to Paris next summer,
30:02a wonderful dive in the Seine yourself.
30:04Are you serious? I am. I'm going to hold you to that.
30:07I want to ask you also about some of the controversies.
30:10As you know very well, there is a young French athlete
30:14who took to Instagram.
30:16Her name is Suncam Basila.
30:19She's a French sprinter, and she has been barred from wearing the hijab
30:23in the opening ceremonies when the athletes come in.
30:27She wrote, you're selected for the Olympics, organised in your country,
30:30but you can't participate in the opening ceremony
30:33because you wear a headscarf.
30:35Now, obviously, the Olympics call for respecting all religions,
30:39and France has this laïcité rule.
30:42Are you trying to figure out a way that she can be included?
30:46And if so, what will that be?
30:48Yeah, and the issue is solved. It's solved?
30:50Actually, that athlete, Suncam Basila,
30:53she will be able to participate in the opening ceremony
30:57exactly the same way as a few weeks ago,
31:01through dialogue, explaining the rule,
31:04explaining why that rule exists.
31:07It's based on our French constitution.
31:09It has to be respected,
31:11because when you're an athlete representing the French team,
31:16you are assimilated to a sort of public agent,
31:20public civil servant.
31:23Based on this, you need to stick to very neutral rules,
31:27meaning that you're not allowed to wear religious or political signs.
31:33So we explained that very extensively to Suncam Basila,
31:36explaining why, where does it come from.
31:38It's not at all the will of a government.
31:40That's the law, and we need to obey by the law.
31:43And she understands perfectly that when you're an athlete
31:46representing your country, you need to be exemplary.
31:50So what we discussed with her
31:54is the fact that she can wear something,
31:59but not something that can be assimilated to a religious symbol.
32:04I see.
32:05Because it's a civil ceremony.
32:06Somehow.
32:07Yes.
32:08I mean, together with the LVMH,
32:11who is preparing all the ceremony clothes for the athletes,
32:17they have to find a way so that she feels good,
32:20but she respects the LVMH.
32:22So it's a win-win.
32:23That's a win-win, and we're happy.
32:25I always say when you're benevolent, when you're constructive,
32:28when you're pragmatic, you can have a solid respect of your rules,
32:33but while finding the right avenues...
32:36You can find a solution.
32:38Absolutely.
32:39And talking about standards and controversies,
32:42a convicted child rapist is playing on the Dutch beach volleyball team.
32:47And I'm just trying to figure out who makes the rules,
32:50who has the standards, because we have a Japanese athlete,
32:53a gymnast who's been sent home for drinking and smoking.
32:56There's a British equestrian who's been dropped by the British team
33:00for a four-year-old, we think, video of her hitting a horse, etc.
33:05So about this kind of situation...
33:09Well, the Dutch person...
33:11I mean, I've just been made aware of that.
33:14So it's not easy for me to comment right now.
33:18What I can tell you is that, of course, as a woman,
33:21I am shocked to imagine that someone that has raped a little girl...
33:27Or a child.
33:29..is part of the Olympics.
33:31But from what I understood, he spent time in jail,
33:36he made a number of excuses, treatments.
33:40So we need to check, we need to further understand the situation.
33:43Apologies.
33:44But I want to say apologies is made sound as well.
33:47But I think what is important to remind is that
33:51the decision to select an athlete is taken by the National Olympic Committee.
33:57So in that case, the Dutch National Olympic Committee.
34:03It's not at all the responsibility of the French state.
34:06This has been a very difficult year in politics for your country.
34:11President Macron made a dramatic political gamble
34:14to try to keep the extreme right, the far right, out of power.
34:19And to an extent, it worked.
34:22But we still don't know who's going to be the next prime minister.
34:25The president has a lot of political work to do, he says,
34:28after the Olympics are over.
34:30Can you talk a little bit about the tumultuous politics?
34:34And were you afraid that that might overshadow the Olympics,
34:38that they could have thrown a spanner in the works?
34:41I mean, all this happened just a few weeks before the opening ceremony.
34:45Well, what I can say... You are a minister.
34:47..is that, you know, I mean, politics, political life,
34:51you have ups and downs, difficulties.
34:54I think the French people have been very strong
34:57in sending a message that they do not want the far right,
35:01the extremes, to really command and drive the country.
35:06This was a message made clear by the French people.
35:09And I think at a time where we welcome the world,
35:13where we want to send a message of openness,
35:16of audacity, of peace, of concord,
35:20this is very important to remind that.
35:24What I want to say also is that, yes,
35:27it's been an intense week on the political side,
35:30but it never jeopardised the quality of the preparation,
35:34because we remained highly focused.
35:37I was not involved in the campaign personally,
35:41so I kept working with all the teams
35:44to really secure that, you know, every step was doing...
35:48..was done the way it had to be done.
35:51Now, I think it's an opportunity,
35:54both for the country to reunite, to take a deep breath,
35:58to enjoy sports, to be proud of their athletes,
36:02to be proud of themselves,
36:04to realise that France is a great country,
36:07capable to do great things, etc.
36:09And on the other side, I think it's also a useful moment
36:12for the political parties to keep working together
36:15to find the right combinations, the right solutions,
36:19so that we have a workable, you know, plan
36:22and secure that once the Olympics are over,
36:26we can go on and keep driving the necessary reforms.
36:30Finally, Céline Dion has been noticed in Paris.
36:34Is she going to perform at the opening ceremonies?
36:37I'm not going to answer to that question,
36:39because I want, you know, to keep the surprise.
36:42We've been holding those secrets for months.
36:46I'm not going to crack down now, just, you know, the day before.
36:50But she's not here just by chance.
36:53OK. Well, you nearly gave away the secret.
36:56Madam Minister, thank you so much indeed.
36:58Thanks to you. Thanks for being with us.
37:00Thank you very much.
37:02Anne, the minister is a former athlete,
37:04and when it comes to gender and sex in sport,
37:07the conversation can often be fraught.
37:09At this year's Games, trans athletes are subject
37:12to stricter rules and regulations than before.
37:15Though this may seem like a recent issue,
37:17it's actually a topic that goes back to the 1930s.
37:21In his new book, The Other Olympians,
37:23historian Michael Waters details the stories
37:26of trans athletes who competed back then,
37:29and he joins Hari Sreenivasan
37:31to speak about the challenges they faced.
37:34Christiane, thanks. Michael Waters, thanks so much for joining us.
37:37You've got a new book out, and in the Olympic spirit here,
37:40it is called The Other Olympians, Fascism, Queerness,
37:44and the Making of Modern Sports.
37:46And what's interesting to me about it,
37:48as a casual fan of the Olympics,
37:50is when you think of 1936,
37:52the storyline you usually think of is Jesse Owens.
37:55There it is in Berlin, being hosted by the Nazis.
37:59But you found a really fascinating alternate story
38:03that I'd never heard of.
38:05You talked about these two athletes, trans athletes,
38:09who were there at the time,
38:11and they publicly transitioned.
38:13Tell me a little bit about the athletes that you profiled.
38:16Yeah, so I wrote about Zdeněk Kovács,
38:19who is this Czech runner
38:21who won gold in this competition called the Women's World Games,
38:26which was like a rival to the Olympics in the 1930s.
38:29His main sport, so he was assigned female at birth,
38:32he played in women's sports before transitioning,
38:35and his main sport was the 800 meters,
38:37which was not available at the Olympics at the time
38:40because there were very few sports for women at the Olympics,
38:44especially in track and field in the 1930s.
38:47And so he wins gold at really the highest level of competition
38:50available to him in 1934,
38:52and he sets a new world record in the process.
38:55And he's kind of like,
38:57he becomes this sort of local sports celebrity in Czechoslovakia,
39:02and perhaps throughout Europe.
39:06And essentially what happens is after winning gold,
39:09he steps away from sports for a bit,
39:12and he sort of decides to wrestle with these questions
39:16he's always had about his own self-identity.
39:19And so after winning gold, he steps away from sports,
39:22and he starts consulting a doctor about the possibility of transitioning.
39:26And he has these consultations,
39:29and then he decides that going forward,
39:32he's going to be living as a man.
39:34In late November 1935, he announces to the Czech press that
39:38he's transitioning gender and living as a man
39:41and wants to play in men's sports in the future.
39:44And a few days later, in early December,
39:46that news gets picked up globally,
39:48and it just becomes this really big international news story
39:51for several weeks.
39:53And then eventually throughout the whole 1936 year
39:56when the Berlin Olympics happened,
39:58all talking about this athlete who transitioned gender.
40:01And so Kobek was the first, but a few months later,
40:04there was this other athlete who was a little bit less successful,
40:08but similarly was assigned female at birth, played in women's sports.
40:13His name was Mark Weston.
40:15He was a British shot putter.
40:17And in May 1936, so several months after Kobek transitioned,
40:21he too gave this interview in which he said that he was living as a man.
40:26And so, you know, together,
40:27they really created this global news story in 1936, you know,
40:31that summer right ahead of the Olympics about, you know,
40:35just like the meaning of transition and of these categories of male and
40:38female, you know, themselves,
40:40which I think you saw the press talking about in this really interesting
40:44nuanced way, really for the first time.
40:46What was that coverage like?
40:48I mean, you know,
40:49it's hard for us to imagine how the world was almost a hundred years ago,
40:54but how were people approaching the idea that someone who was born a woman
40:59who would want to be competing in men's sports?
41:03Yeah.
41:04So, I mean the, so 1935 and 1936, when this was happening, you know,
41:09this was an era before there was a concept of gender as this like
41:13psychological socialized identity distinct from biological sex.
41:17And so, you know, when these athletes were written about, it was,
41:20it was purely in terms of the body, but, you know,
41:22the mid 1930s are also kind of the end of this era of really visible
41:28queerness in a lot of cities in Europe, in the U S especially.
41:32And, you know, you had in Germany, which was, you know,
41:36right next door to Czechoslovakia,
41:37you had Magnus Hirschfeld who was this really prominent sexologist who
41:42offered medical care to trans and intersex people in the 1920s and 1930s.
41:49And, you know, he helped to bring forward these ideas that, you know,
41:54perhaps there is a lot more to understand about the body and about what we,
41:59what we call gender today and about transition themselves.
42:02And this is also an era where like, you know, every few months,
42:06there is a new discovery about the body and about sex and sexuality.
42:10And so I think the public was quite primed to see
42:16like, to like,
42:18accept the idea that there was more than they generally understood about how
42:22sort of like sex worked and how these categories of male and female worked.
42:26And what really struck me is that a lot of the coverage of Kobeck and Weston,
42:31these two athletes who transitioned gender is quite empathetic.
42:36And, you know, they definitely, they got the pronouns wrong.
42:39They use some words that, you know,
42:41we wouldn't use today to describe these athletes.
42:44And there was certainly like a fair bit of sensationalism of,
42:48of these athletes and of this idea of transition, but, you know,
42:51through it all,
42:52I think there's this real curiosity from the public and from journalists
42:55about, you know, like what it means to move between these categories.
42:59Tell us a little bit about another athlete that you write about Helen
43:02Stevens.
43:03Helen Stevens.
43:04She's kind of forgotten compared to Jesse Owens,
43:08but she was probably like the second most famous American athlete at the
43:12Berlin Olympics in 1936.
43:14So she is this track runner from Missouri.
43:18And she, you know, isn't this woman, you know,
43:22they didn't have that term then, but like,
43:24we can identify as a CIS woman today.
43:26And she sort of,
43:29because of a childhood accident had this like very deep voice.
43:33She also had just like big biceps.
43:36She was often sort of,
43:37sort of noticed for her perceived masculinity.
43:41And she basically in,
43:45in 1936 at the Berlin Olympics,
43:48she's one of the top U S athletes.
43:51She eventually wins a gold medal at the same day as,
43:54as Jesse Owens wins his gold.
43:56And there's all this scrutiny, you know,
44:00sort of in part because of these,
44:04of Quebec and Weston, these two athletes who transitioned gender,
44:06there's all this sort of extra scrutiny and this heightened scrutiny on women's
44:11sports and on athletes who are just like perceived to be masculine in some
44:16way. And Helen Stevens has always been,
44:18has always sort of dealt with this,
44:20but it really comes to a head at the Berlin Olympics.
44:23And there's this new story after she wins gold,
44:26there's this new story published about her and this Polish newspaper that
44:30essentially accuses her of being like a man in disguise.
44:34And it's not totally clear what happened,
44:36but at the very least you saw for the first time in the press,
44:40this idea of like examining people to determine whether or not they should be
44:45in women's sports.
44:46And really coming out of this moment of fear mongering about this really
44:50prominent American athlete.
44:52There's an interesting character you write about kind of the,
44:55it's sort of behind this interest in figuring out how to test athletes.
45:01His name is Wilhelm Noel. Tell us a little bit about him. Who is he?
45:06Who was he?
45:07Yeah. So,
45:08so Quebec transitioned like announced that he was transitioning gender at the
45:12end of 1935. And like I said, you know,
45:15it becomes global news story that is written about, you know,
45:19really with this sense of curiosity about the possibilities of transition.
45:25And so while the public is just kind of curious about like, okay,
45:28it's literally like,
45:29how is it possible to move between these categories?
45:31Like what are the medical advances that,
45:35that sort of allow this you do see the small group of sports officials who
45:39have a very different reaction.
45:41And the most prominent among them is Wilhelm Noel,
45:43who in January, 1936 writes this op-ed,
45:48essentially accusing Quebec of being a fraud and deceitful in some
45:53way.
45:54And Noel seemed to take issue with the fact that Quebec had been in women's
45:57sports at all. And Noel, just for some background context, you know,
46:01he was a quite influential sports doctor in 1936.
46:05He was the head of this group of sports doctors who advised, you know,
46:09the IOC, the track and field federation.
46:12This was a very early era of sports science.
46:15And so he,
46:16despite nature of having that position had a lot of cachet.
46:21He was also a registered Nazi at the time.
46:24And he was really an ardent believer. You know,
46:26he taught at a university and he wore the Brown shirt uniform to classes.
46:32And he, you know, like separately from Quebec,
46:34he had all of these writings about how he wanted to eliminate Jewish athletes,
46:38athletes of color from sports in general.
46:42So he just kind of has a tendency because of his belief in eugenics to push
46:47out athletes.
46:48And he saw Quebec and this possibility of transition as some kind of threat
46:53and you know, something that needs to be weeded out.
46:57Tell me, you know,
46:58for people who might not be paying attention to kind of the history of how
47:02these policies have evolved,
47:04what's happened in the world of international competition when it comes to
47:09identifying gender or trying to figure out if there's an advantage,
47:14because it seems that we, we've shifted away from, you know,
47:17kind of a physical exam into slightly more scientific measures.
47:21The original policies were like you said, they were just physical exams.
47:25They would strip test women athletes. Again,
47:28it's not really clear like what were they looking for,
47:31which kinds of bodies would be allowed, which wouldn't,
47:33that was never outlined in these early years, you know,
47:36eventually that ran into a lot of problems.
47:38And so as success in groups,
47:41sports officials began embracing a chromosome based test,
47:45which essentially would try to sort of delineate athletes by like
47:51measuring their testing, their chromosomes. The problem was, you know,
47:55there are a lot of like athletes who would probably identify as this women
47:59today who have like a multiplicity of chromosomes.
48:01They were just sort of quietly expelled from the Olympics in the like
48:06sixties and seventies and into the eighties.
48:09There was a lot of backlash to this.
48:10So the policy switched over to testing hormone levels.
48:15And today what we have is kind of a grab bag of different policies.
48:19So the IOC, the international Olympic committee, which, which
48:24makes a lot of these overarching policies,
48:26they've actually said that they no longer want to set the terms of
48:31eligibility for women athletes.
48:33And they released a statement in 2021 that actually talked about wanting to
48:37have more inclusion of trans intersex women in sports,
48:41but they left it up to the individual federation.
48:43So like the track and field federation, for example,
48:46to sort of govern their own group of sports separately.
48:50And what has happened is that in a lot of cases,
48:53these policies have become quite restrictive and have
48:58banned like nearly,
48:59in many cases banned nearly all trans women from competing in the Olympics
49:04also have set really hard limits on women who might fit on an intersex
49:09spectrum and even CIS women who have high testosterone levels,
49:13limitations on whether they can play and how they can play,
49:16but it really depends now based on sports. So the current policy
49:22is really different depending on what sport you look at, but that,
49:26that same concept of,
49:29we are going to regulate like which kind of women can compete.
49:33I think you can sort of draw a direct line between 1936 and today,
49:38even as the policies themselves have gotten very different and the things that
49:42are being tested has, has gotten very different.
49:44In an op-ed that you wrote for the New York times,
49:47you mentioned this summer at the Paris Olympics,
49:49sex testing policies will be in some ways,
49:51even more extreme than in years past. Why is that?
49:55Yeah. Well,
49:56I think that's in part because of the fact that these international
50:02federations,
50:03these sort of like sports organizations that I mentioned that govern
50:06something like track and field or swimming have actually gotten stricter on
50:13eligibility requirements. So if you just look at a track and field,
50:16for instance a few years ago at the Olympics,
50:19there was a path to inclusion for trans women athletes and track and field.
50:25It would involve like keeping your hormone levels like in a certain range.
50:30So it was a difficult,
50:31but there was a way for a trans woman could theoretically compete.
50:36Now the track and field federation has basically gotten rid of that entirely
50:39and all the band trans women.
50:42And so I think you see kind of a similar story in a lot of different sports,
50:45which is that these policies are getting stricter, even as the IOC,
50:50which is kind of like the top of this governing bureaucracy sports structure,
50:57even as the IOC is saying, we want more inclusion. You know,
51:01not a lot of the sports federations have taken them up on that.
51:04This has been such a topic for American political culture wars.
51:10One of the core concerns for people is this notion of fairness and in
51:16competitions, like say track and field,
51:18it's literally who gets across the line first and whether or not someone has an
51:24inherent advantage perhaps because of their biology.
51:29What's the problem? Is there a problem in that thinking?
51:33There is so much fixation on trans intersex women in sports,
51:37and we don't have that same kind of dialogue about many other kinds of like
51:41perceived advantage that are just sort of baked into how we think about sports.
51:46So if you think about something like basketball, you know,
51:48it certainly helps to be tall.
51:50We're not trying to regulate the heights of basketball players.
51:53Even when you think about these efforts to regulate testosterone levels in
51:58women, you know, we don't do the same thing in men's sports.
52:01And if the idea is that, you know,
52:04testosterone levels confer some kind of unfair athletic behavior,
52:07advantage, you know,
52:08men have the same diversity of testosterone levels as women.
52:11So why wouldn't we also limit like men's testosterone levels?
52:15It doesn't really make sense to go down that path.
52:17That's not even to mention, you know,
52:19someone like Michael Phelps who's born with this really specific genetic
52:24condition that gives him like a long wingspan that also happens to be
52:30perfect for swimming, you know,
52:32or some of these more like invisible types of advantage, like class,
52:35you know, early on in your sports career, you know,
52:38whether you can pay for trainers or to go to some kind of summer camp and
52:43work your way up in sports can really influence, you know,
52:46whether you can make it to this elite level.
52:48And all of this is just to say that, like,
52:51I think a great thing about the Olympics is it brings together a lot of
52:55different people from all over the world,
52:57A great thing about the Olympics is it brings together a lot of different
53:01people from a lot of different backgrounds and experiences and people who
53:06sort of exist on the spectrum of bodies and experience that we all do.
53:10And there's some things that we can't regulate and we accept that we can't
53:15regulate. And I think to me,
53:16it is quite telling to see the fixation on trans women in sports and
53:22intersex women in sports specifically,
53:24and also CIS women who have high testosterone levels in a way that we don't
53:28fixate on any of these other things throughout the history.
53:33It strikes me that we've been having the same conversation kind of over and
53:38over again,
53:39and often erased from all of this is the athletes themselves and just,
53:44you know, their humanity.
53:45And then also just like the immense skill it takes to get to the point where
53:49you could maybe go to the Olympics. You know, these are,
53:51these are all athletes of like unbelievable skill who've put in years and
53:56years of their lives into this sport. And so
54:00to me,
54:01it's just kind of unthinkable that we would then say, actually,
54:04you don't meet this sort of subjective ever-changing definition of women.
54:08And so therefore you can't compete. Yeah, that's,
54:12I guess that's sort of what I've gleaned from looking at the history.
54:15The book is called The Other Olympians, Fascism,
54:18Queerness, and the Making of Modern Sports. Author Michael Waters.
54:22Thanks so much for joining us. Thank you for having me.
54:25And finally tonight, as we said earlier,
54:27these Olympics mark a historic homecoming for Paris.
54:30The first time it's hosted the summer games was a hundred years ago,
54:34back in 1924,
54:36an Olympics that has been embedded in cinematic history ever since,
54:40because the American swimmer back then,
54:42Johnny Weissmuller shot to stardom after winning three gold medals here in
54:47Paris. And then he went on to star in 12 Tarzan movies.
54:52I'm Jane Parker. Understand? Jane. Jane.
54:58Jane. Jane. Jane.
55:00Jane. You? Jane. Jane.
55:08But perhaps most famously,
55:09the story of the British runners headed for glory at Paris 1924 was the
55:14was the inspiration for the legendary film Chariots of Fire.
55:18So who knows, perhaps the cinema heroes of tomorrow
55:22will be born over the next few weeks here.
55:25That's it for our programme tonight.
55:27If you want to find out what's coming up on the show every night,
55:30sign up for our newsletter at pbs.org.
55:34Thanks for watching and goodbye from Paris.
55:37And of course we want to leave you now with a little Chariots of Fire.
55:44.