Joe Biden biographer Evan Osnos unpacks the DNC and Kamala Harris’s nomination acceptance speech. Jaime Harrison, chair of the DNC, also breaks down the events in Chicago this week. Peter Friedman, Sydney Lemmon, and Max Wolf Friedlich discuss their new play “Job” about the pitfalls of social media. Musician and producer Jack Antonoff talks about Taylor Swift, producing, and his band, Bleachers.
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00:00Hello, everyone, and welcome to Amman Porn Company. Here's what's coming up.
00:08Together, let us write the next great chapter in the most extraordinary story.
00:17Kamala Harris' big moment. The VP takes center stage in her quest to become America's first female president.
00:25Then, DNC Chair Jamie Harrison talks to Walter Isaacson about the historic week in Chicago and the challenges Democrats face ahead of November.
00:35Plus, where Broadway meets the Internet. I speak to the talents behind the hit play Job, a tense thriller about the digital world wreaking havoc in our lives.
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01:52Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Bianca Rodriguez in New York sitting in for Christiane Amanpour.
01:57Well, in the end, history may have been made in record time, just over one month since President Biden reluctantly dropped out of the race.
02:05Kamala Harris has become the first woman of color to become a major party's presidential nominee.
02:13I accept your nomination to be president of the United States of America.
02:24But amidst the euphoria on display among Democrats this week, there has been a tangible strain of caution threaded throughout the DNC.
02:32Speaker after speaker reminded viewers that the race will be close, with polls showing that it's still a toss up.
02:38So what did last night's speech teach us about how the rest of this story, this short campaign will play out?
02:45And what do the Republicans need to do to recapture the momentum?
02:49Let's get some insight from Evan Osnos, who wrote an acclaimed biography of President Joe Biden.
02:53Welcome to the program from Chicago, Evan. It is good to see you.
02:57You know, we had our show meeting this morning and we all joked.
03:01But I think there's some seriousness to this, that this has been a year that actually has been just a month.
03:09I mean, it has been insane what has happened in just the course of four weeks.
03:15I'm wondering if you've ever experienced something quite like this in your career.
03:20No, we're doing politics and history at light speed at this point.
03:26I mean, it's it is really just sort of staggering to think how different this convention might have been had Joe Biden still been the nominee.
03:35I think you saw at the beginning of the week a tremendous outpouring of gratitude to him,
03:39not only for the foundation upon which now Kamala Harris is building this last 70 days of the campaign, but also let's be honest,
03:47it's also for him stepping aside for making that rarest of political choices to give up power.
03:52And just the sheer pace of that transformation and everything that it implies about how you run against Republicans, how Donald Trump will respond.
04:02It has all been turned upside down.
04:06And while Donald Trump has been depicting Kamala Harris as not only aligned with the Biden campaign and all the flaws that they've been elaborating on,
04:17that they say emanated from this administration, but also he's trying to paint her as a communist, socialist, radical leftist.
04:26And last night in this week, I would say we've really seen from all of those who we heard from and then ending with Kamala Harris herself,
04:36describing herself as the change candidate, but also the moderate candidate who is the sane candidate of these two.
04:45Do you think she was effective in doing that?
04:48It was very noticeable beyond that.
04:50Essentially, the portrait that she was presenting of herself and of the party was in stark contrast to what is increasingly a set of policy positions that Trump and J.D.
05:02Vance hold that are just wildly out of step with where Americans are.
05:05Take last night the way she talked about abortion and reproductive rights.
05:09The idea that Republicans would come in and institute the plans they've talked about that would require a child, a victim of rape or sexual abuse to have to carry a child to term because of where they live and things like that.
05:22It just strikes people as as offensive to how we perceive our system to work.
05:27And I think the subtle subtext and in some cases the explicit goal was to say to people, I have lived a life like yours.
05:36I live a life like yours today.
05:38I have a blended family. We are a story of of America that is relatable and that we are not operating in some esoteric world of ideology and policy that feels that feels unapproachable.
05:53And, you know, I think that you there was a powerful clip that you ran earlier just a moment ago about how she said together we will turn a page to write essentially a new chapter in the American story.
06:04That's three big ideas together.
06:06One is a very unifying concept. She's not just speaking to Democrats. In fact, she never mentioned the Democratic Party in her speech.
06:12She talked about America over and over again.
06:15She also said this is an American story, reclaiming, in a sense, the idea that that a Democratic candidate can speak on behalf of America and patriotic values.
06:23And then, of course, the key idea is a new chapter.
06:26You know, this is not only just a reference to Donald Trump as sort of a return to the to the experience we all had four years ago, but also a recognition that by supplanting Joe Biden on the ticket, that she has really begun this process of a new generation stepping in.
06:44And we've seen a slight refocus from her campaign, as opposed to what we saw with Biden's campaign, really focusing on democracy.
06:54It seems that Kamala Harris is more focused on freedom and specifically reproductive rights for women.
07:02And that's the way she characterized Donald Trump, not necessarily as a threat to democracy.
07:09She called him an unserious man who could do serious harm to the country, given some of his policies, specifically as it relates to freedoms, including freedoms for women and reproductive rights.
07:21I want to play some sound for you from what she said about that.
07:26He plans to create a national anti-abortion coordinator and force states to report on women's miscarriages and abortions.
07:41Simply put, they are out of their minds.
07:48What do you make of that strategy?
07:51We heard it from the Obamas, in a sense, to mocking Donald Trump, Kamala Harris saying he's not a serious person, calling the Republicans at his agenda and his strategy.
08:02They're out of their minds. Do you think that's going to work?
08:06You know, this idea of of using freedom as a central as the central idea of the campaign, in fact, does predate Kamala Harris's role at the top of the ticket.
08:16In fact, if you go back and you listen to the very first word in the first ad that Joe Biden ran in this campaign, the first word was freedom.
08:24There was this feeling among his political advisers that this was an opportunity for Democrats because of these kinds of intrusions into private life that Americans were seeing from Republicans.
08:34But the truth is, and this is gets to the core of the political moment we're in now, the messenger matters as much as the message.
08:41And when it comes from Kamala Harris, the way in which she can talk about abortion with a full throated sense of of credibility on the question in a way that Joe Biden frankly could not,
08:55it is more powerful and it has just landed very differently with the public.
08:59And I think it is not as much about raising the sense of alarm about Donald Trump.
09:05That is still very much a part of her message. But she's actually saying to to Americans that it is OK to laugh at this man.
09:15It is OK to say that he's not normal, to say that he's weird, to use the term we've all been hearing for weeks now.
09:22That has turned out to be a very powerful combination to point out both the unseriousness of the person and the seriousness of the consequences.
09:29And that seems to really have gotten under Trump's skin. He still hasn't been able to find a an effective attack on Kamala Harris on this ticket yet.
09:39And flailing, really, I mean, you have his advisers who are really desperate for him to stay on message and focus on the policies and specifics.
09:49And he still is looking for that lane to where he can go on the personal attack.
09:53And it's not working in the way that it may have in the past.
09:57I also noticed this week, and I'm not the only one, a difference in how Democrats are embracing patriotism and joy and the future of the country.
10:11You saw many nights where you there were chants repeatedly, USA, USA.
10:17You heard Kamala Harris talk about how exceptional this country is.
10:21And, yes, there are still problems that need to be addressed.
10:24But only in this country could the daughter of two immigrants now be the candidate for the Democratic Party for president.
10:31And Peggy Noonan even picked up on it today.
10:33She said they stole traditional Republican themes of faith and patriotism and claimed their claim them as their own.
10:41How do you think that's going to be viewed specifically among those targeted voters, the undecided and the independents?
10:50Yeah, it's turned out to be really an important theme here.
10:53I had a conversation with somebody on the sidelines of the convention who is looking at voter attitudes, studying focus groups, doing polls.
11:01And what she said was that there was this reservoir of energy of people, particularly out in these suburban areas, who felt as if patriotism had been taken from them.
11:11And there was a monopoly on it, the language of patriotism on the right.
11:16And instead of being able to fly an American flag at your house and saying, look, I am doing this on behalf of a centrist position or a center left position,
11:25it had almost been sort of weaponized by the Trump-MAGA Republican movement.
11:30That's how it was being described.
11:32And so there was this effort to reach out and say, we can turn how that feels.
11:37And, you know, you're hearing from Republicans and you saw some of them up on the stage during the Democratic convention.
11:43These are Republicans like Adam Kinzinger, who, after all, has spent 12 years in Congress as a Republican,
11:50reaching out explicitly to his fellow Republicans and saying to vote for a Democrat this year is not to betray your values.
11:57It is, in fact, to cement your values and to do an act of patriotism.
12:01That's a theme that it turns out to have been available but hasn't been taken up until just now and is proving powerful.
12:09And finally, Evan, a really touching display of gratitude and appreciation for Joe Biden Monday night.
12:15We heard from the president as well.
12:18We saw the embrace and the chemistry between he and Kamala Harris, telling him how much she loves him and how much she appreciates everything that he has done.
12:27What are you hearing in terms of how he is doing right now and how he sees the next five months for him?
12:33I know he's on vacation in California with his family now.
12:39You know, that was an important moment, I think, both for him personally and then also for the party in a way to to to to make vivid this transition from from him now and to her.
12:52Look, privately, personally, this is a very difficult time for him.
12:56I mean, as one of his somebody who's very close to him said to me, the truth is he's still sort of flummoxed about how things turned out the way they did.
13:05And that goes back to something we talked about at the very beginning, which is how fast this is all transpired.
13:10Remember two months ago, of course, he was going to be the nominee and they were all planning for that.
13:14So he is still at this moment trying to come to terms with it.
13:19He is aware of the idea that perhaps people think that he's angry.
13:23They're pushing back a bit against that. Somebody described him to me as disappointed, but not depressed.
13:28And I think that is in some ways the combination of experiences.
13:31And it'll take time, as he knows, from having lost in his life to be able to begin to see this with some perspective.
13:38Indeed. Evan Osnos, thank you so much for joining us once again.
13:42What a year this month has been. Thank you.
13:48Well, now, when the DNC kicked off on Monday, party chairman Jamie Harrison was first at the podium.
13:54The South Carolina native reflected on the moment, writing on Twitter,
13:57only in America could a round-headed boy raised by a single mother end up gaveling in a historic convention
14:04to nominate our first black woman president.
14:07Well, Harrison, you may recall, burst onto the national scene in 2020
14:11when he launched a surprisingly competitive Senate campaign against Lindsey Graham.
14:15Walter Isaacson spoke to Harrison about the week that was and what challenges his party faces between now and November.
14:23Thank you, Bionna. And Chairman Jamie Harrison, welcome to the show.
14:28Thank you so much for having me.
14:30Congratulations. It was a pretty crisp, clear convention with a whole lot of themes.
14:35And let me go through them. One of them was freedom.
14:38He used a Beyonce song, the John Batty song. Every speaker hit it.
14:42It was a shift from the theme of democracy that Joe Biden was using, an important theme, but sort of a less personal one.
14:51Tell me about the shift to the theme of freedom.
14:55Well, freedom is just, you know, that's what we're fighting for in this country.
14:59And we have seen a full-fronted assault on the freedoms of the American people.
15:05I mean, you take a look at women in this country.
15:08For the first time in 50 years, women don't have the freedom to control their own bodies all across this country.
15:16You know, I'm 48, and all of my life, up until just a few years ago, we've been gaining more freedoms in this country.
15:27You know, folks gaining the right to vote because all of us did not always have it.
15:32My grandparents did not always have it.
15:34Women gaining the right to control their own bodies.
15:39And for the first time, because of Donald Trump and the people that he appointed to the Supreme Court,
15:45and because of the Roberts Supreme Court, those freedoms have been ripped away.
15:52The Voting Rights Act gutted under Roberts. Roe v. Wade destroyed under Roberts.
15:58And then you hear in the dictum of some of these opinions from folks like Clarence Thomas that said,
16:05we're not done in terms of going after our other freedoms.
16:08And that's why we had to, Democrats had to move forward in terms of marriage equality,
16:12because Clarence Thomas and his ilk were talking about going right at that particular freedom
16:19that has been gained over the course of the past few years.
16:22So freedom is a really, really important component.
16:25And it doesn't matter if you're a Democrat or Republican or Independent.
16:30America is built on freedom, and somebody has to protect it.
16:35We don't see that protection coming from the Republicans.
16:38We see an assault on it.
16:40And Democrats are going to be those joyful warriors, those hopeful warriors,
16:44that will do everything within our power to protect America's freedom.
16:49You know, one of the things I noticed last night as I'm sitting there in the hall,
16:54seems somewhat unusual in my days of covering Democratic conventions,
16:58is everybody had an American flag.
17:00People are chanting USA.
17:02The flag's marching down.
17:04The speakers are all talking about USA and patriotism.
17:08Tell me about the decisions you all made to recapture the notion of the flag,
17:13the country, and patriotism.
17:15Well, it's important to understand, you know,
17:18when you say that you support the United States of America,
17:22then that means supporting what our Constitution says,
17:25supporting what the Declaration says.
17:27We have had and heard from Donald Trump, his own words, not mine,
17:31that he wants to be a dictator on day one,
17:34that he's okay with ignoring and sometimes pushing off
17:38the Constitution of these United States.
17:41Joe Biden said this also clearly.
17:44You can't just love this country only when you win.
17:48This is about loving America all the time.
17:51And the Democratic Party looks like America.
17:55We represent the diversity and the strength and the values of this country.
17:59We believe that everybody, everybody, regardless of your race,
18:03your religion, who you love, how you love, how you identify yourself,
18:07should live, be able to live their American dream.
18:11I can't say that for the other side.
18:13You look at Donald Trump.
18:15You look at that convention where you saw our convention,
18:18where you saw such unity, some happiness and joy.
18:21I mean, it was like a big family reunion, right?
18:24People are dancing, they're crying, they're hugging.
18:28You look at the Republican convention.
18:31These people had signs chanting for mass deportation.
18:36This country built by immigrants, right?
18:40So that's the stark contrast right now between the parties.
18:44They're doom and gloom and fear.
18:46We're hope and joy.
18:48And I think hope and joy beats doom and fear every time.
18:51Another thing that struck me,
18:54which seemed different from some previous Democratic conventions,
18:57was the emphasis last night in particular on national security,
19:01having veterans in the party up there,
19:04having Leon Panetta as sort of an unexpected, in some ways,
19:08primetime speaker with one of the toughest speeches
19:11on the need for American defense.
19:14And the vice president said it herself in her acceptance speech.
19:18Tell me how you were thinking through the need to project
19:21that a woman like Kamala Harris,
19:23we've never elected a woman before,
19:25can be a commander-in-chief strong on national defense and the military.
19:31Well, you know, one of the things we were thinking is,
19:34listen, we knew how strong the VP is.
19:38And I think a lot of world leaders know how strong the VP is.
19:42And we wanted to make sure that we demonstrated that.
19:45This is someone who is respected on the world stage.
19:48You remember early on in this administration
19:51when there was some friction because of a submarine contract
19:55with Australia and France.
19:58Well, Kamala Harris, early on in this administration,
20:01was seen as an emissary to soothe over
20:05some of the frustrations over in France.
20:08And she and the president of France have now become very close.
20:12And she actually helped to rebuild and strengthen that relationship
20:15with this ally that has been an ally for such a long time.
20:19And so she's met with hundreds of world leaders.
20:24This president is extremely strong.
20:27But she's also very empathetic.
20:29She understands.
20:31She comes, she's a progeny of immigrants.
20:34And she understands the hardships and the struggles
20:36that some face in many countries.
20:39Her visit to Africa didn't get a lot of coverage.
20:43But it was so amazing to see and to witness,
20:48particularly as a black man.
20:50And so I can't wait to see her on that stage as our commander-in-chief
20:55because she's going to be strong.
20:57But she's also going to have a heart
21:00and understand the trials and tribulations that so many face.
21:04You know, as party chair, you had to make a pretty strong pivot
21:08about four and a half weeks ago.
21:10Suddenly you're planning for this convention of re-nominating Joe Biden.
21:15And boom, you got something totally different.
21:18Tell me about that pivot.
21:20What did y'all scramble to do to change the convention?
21:23Well, you know, some of it wasn't really a big pivot, to be quite honest.
21:27Because when you think about it, in 2020,
21:30Joe Biden and Kamala Harris really did not get a traditional convention.
21:35You know, we were online via COVID.
21:39They didn't get the traditional inauguration.
21:42They actually didn't have all the pomp and circumstance
21:46for an inauguration.
21:48And so we went into this convention, one looking for a host city
21:52that could help tell their story and the story of this administration
21:55and the achievements.
21:57But most importantly, we went into this convention thinking about
21:59how do we tell the story of Joe Biden, of Kamala Harris?
22:04And so when the switch happened, we knew that we were already preparing
22:10to tell the story of Kamala Harris.
22:12But now we also needed to be able to tell the story of Governor Tim Walz
22:17and then shift how we told Joe Biden's story, not as the nominee,
22:22but as the transformational president that he has been.
22:27I will go down saying that Joe Biden is the most transformational president
22:32of my lifetime.
22:34When you look at his legislative achievements,
22:36it is hard to find any comparison outside of Lyndon Baines Johnson
22:41in terms of the sheer number and volume and impact
22:45of those legislative achievements.
22:48And what gives him even a little notch more is he did it with the 50-50 Senate
22:54on a good day and a less than five-seat majority,
22:57the same majority that Republicans have.
22:59And so we wanted to make sure that then we could do that.
23:03We give the president his flowers, but tell the story of Kamala Harris.
23:07When I was walking to the hall, we'd see the Palestinian protesters,
23:11and that was one of the things that Vice President Harris had to navigate.
23:17I want to read you from her speech because she did a very careful navigation of it.
23:22She said, I will always stand up for Israel's right to defend itself.
23:27And then she said, but what has happened in Gaza is devastating,
23:31desperate, hungry people fleeing for safety over and over again.
23:35The scale of suffering is heartbreaking.
23:39To me, that was a shift of tone, a noticeable shift of tone from President Biden
23:45to just really empathize with the heartbreaking plight of many Palestinian civilians.
23:51How is she going to try to keep the party together on this issue,
23:57especially when so many Palestinians feel disenfranchised now?
24:01Yeah, well, you know, that's what I mentioned earlier about strength, but empathy.
24:07And those two things can coexist at the same time.
24:10They can be in the same person.
24:13I thought that section of the Vice President's speech was just absolutely spot on.
24:20It was beautiful in many ways because that's where we have to be.
24:26We can stand with our allies, and at the same time, we can also see the hurt and the pain
24:32and want to actively lean into doing things to address that as well.
24:38It doesn't have to be black or white.
24:42There's that room in the middle in order to really pave that path.
24:46And I believe that this is the person who can do it in Kamala Harris.
24:51And I hope we get it done before she becomes president
24:54because the need right now is tremendous and it's great.
24:58And so I know that she's feverishly working with President Biden
25:03and the national security team day in and day out to try to make progress here
25:08and to go and secure a ceasefire.
25:11One of the decisions that you all who were organizing this convention had to make
25:17was whether or not to have a speaker from the uncommitted delegates
25:22who were representing the Palestinian cause.
25:25To what extent did you have discussions about having a Palestinian speaker?
25:29And why, in the end, did you not have a pro-Palestinian speaker during the convention?
25:35Well, that section of our program I wasn't actively involved in.
25:42But what we tried to do was to make sure we brought folks on that stage
25:47that are respected and had opinion points in all perspectives.
25:52And there were folks on that stage who had those reflections.
25:56I mean, the requests from folks in the various groups and pockets,
26:00we're a very diverse party.
26:04It is our strength, but it can also at times create difficulties
26:09because there's the sheer volume of groups that make up almost,
26:14in some fashion, we're a little coalition-like when you think about the Democratic Party.
26:20Similar to what you find in Europe and what happens.
26:23You have all of these segments and these groups.
26:25But let me get back to that issue of whether or not to have that speaker
26:29because it was a two- or three-day discussion.
26:32Are you worried about, especially Michigan, Minnesota, and other places,
26:37by deciding not to have a pro-Palestinian speaker,
26:41what are you going to do to reach out to that community?
26:44Well, I think the vice president's speech laid the foundation for that.
26:49She spoke her truth.
26:52And I think her truth, when you talk to folks in those communities,
26:57I think you see some semblance of all of that right in those communities.
27:01And so she'll continue to go and reach out to those communities.
27:04We will continue to go and go to those areas.
27:09We will go to where people are and have the discussions.
27:12And not only will it just be about words because I'm a firm believer
27:16that it's not about just telling people about where you are.
27:19It's about showing them.
27:21And I think the most powerful thing that we can do over the course of the next few weeks
27:26as we get to November is not just tell people about our position,
27:30but to actively show them with our actions.
27:33And that's what the vice president, along with the president,
27:36are working on day in and day out, to show folks that we are committed
27:40to getting a ceasefire, we're committed to protecting the Israeli people
27:47as well as the Palestinian people.
27:50And I think our actions are going to be much more powerful than just our words.
27:56A while back, you said as DNC chair, one of your big goals would be to re-engaging
28:02and winning back Latino and black men who have drifted away from the party.
28:07Trump just yesterday was bragging that he's getting black men, Latinos for him.
28:12Tell me what you're doing and what you're seeing in that regard.
28:16Well, I think Donald Trump continues his delusion
28:20because he's not getting black men and Latino men.
28:24We have been actively, for the last three and a half years,
28:27been going around into the communities, making sure that we have conversations
28:31with black men and Latino men so that they understand that we don't take them
28:35for granted, that we see them, that we hear them, but most importantly,
28:39we value them, and we're going to fight like hell for them.
28:44Everybody wants to be seen and heard, everybody.
28:47And they want to know that you have an agenda for them,
28:51that you understand the hardships that they're facing.
28:55And I think the vice president is rolling out things
28:59because that economic anxiety is still a really present thing.
29:04Black men and Latino men want to take care of their families.
29:07They want to make sure that there's security, not only personal security,
29:11but economic security as well.
29:15The most dehumanizing thing for a man is to feel as though he cannot protect,
29:20he cannot defend, he cannot take care and produce for his family.
29:25And so we understand that, and we're making sure that our messages
29:29are rooted in that, and we're making sure that the outreach that we do
29:34is also rooted in that.
29:36This was a historic nomination for a black woman, South Asian woman.
29:42We're seeing history being made.
29:44But one of the things that struck me is that Vice President Harris
29:48didn't dwell on that in her speech, the historic nature of it.
29:53Tell me about what you see as the historic nature
29:55and perhaps why she didn't talk about it more.
29:58Well, you know, I think what's really important for folks
30:01is to understand that regardless of her background,
30:06this is a person who is ready on day one to be the Commander-in-Chief.
30:13There's probably no one more equipped to be so.
30:17She has been the Vice President of the United States
30:20for the last three and a half years.
30:22She's helped, stood shoulder to shoulder with Joe Biden
30:27to pass some of the most transformational legislation
30:30that we have seen in the last few decades
30:33to bring America out of the darkness and despair of COVID,
30:38to help rebuild our relationships overbroad
30:41so that people respected America again,
30:44to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.
30:48And she happens to be a woman,
30:51and she happens to be of black and Asian-American descent.
30:55But it is groundbreaking because, like I said,
30:58people will get an opportunity to see who she is.
31:02And many people will get an opportunity to see themselves in her.
31:06And that's the most amazing thing.
31:08This is a historic moment.
31:10And, you know, this picture that I've been painting
31:13for folks all week at this Democratic convention
31:16was this image.
31:18Because, again, we're a future-thinking party.
31:20This image of January 20th, 2025,
31:24on the steps of the United States Capitol,
31:27Justice Contagi Brown Jackson standing there
31:30holding the Bible of Frederick Douglass.
31:33And Kamala Harris stepping out,
31:36putting her hand on that Bible
31:39and taking a pledge to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.
31:43They're standing on the steps of a building
31:46built by the hands of slaves.
31:49That is what America can do.
31:52I mean, it just gives me chills just thinking about it
31:55time and time again.
31:57That is what America can do in this election.
32:00It's all within our power, and we will do that.
32:03And we will rejoice in the joy of our ancestors
32:08as we move forward with that.
32:11Jamie Harrison, thank you so much for joining us.
32:14Thank you so much for having me.
32:16Well, now, from deep fakes to misinformation,
32:19social media is already proving that it has the power
32:22to disrupt and destabilize the upcoming election.
32:25Well, our next guests are using the Broadway stage
32:28to shine a spotlight on exactly that,
32:31the dark side of the Internet.
32:33In the new play Job, an employee at a tech company
32:36tasked with scrolling through unsavory content
32:39is put on leave after a video of her having a breakdown goes viral.
32:43Now it's up to her new crisis therapist
32:46to give her the all-clear to return to work.
32:49I sat down with the two stars, Peter Friedman and Sidney Lemon,
32:52alongside the playwright Max Wolf Friedlich.
32:55Okay, well, thank you all for joining us.
32:58I'm really blown away by this show,
33:00so I'm excited to be having this conversation with you, Max.
33:04We'll get to where this concept came from,
33:06but let's jump into the plot.
33:09Sidney's character, Jane, her life is really shattered
33:12as a content moderator at a Facebook-like social media company.
33:17I'm wondering if you personally had any type of life-altering
33:22or experiences with content
33:27that stood out to you as disturbing online.
33:30Nothing directly, but I'm a chronically online person
33:35and someone raised on the Internet,
33:37so I think a lot of horrible things normalized to me
33:40very quickly from a very young age,
33:43and it wasn't until years later
33:45that I sort of was able to realize
33:47that those were strange things to have seen,
33:50and I'm not an outlier.
33:52I think a lot of people grow up that way in the modern world,
33:56but I had a very strange tech job
33:59when I first graduated from college
34:01where I worked for this company that built fictional influencers,
34:05so that was my most direct related experience
34:10to what Jane goes through,
34:12where I wasn't looking at awful content on the Internet,
34:14but I was living life as this fake famous person
34:19called Will McKayla,
34:21and so I was getting sent messages
34:25about how much people loved me and how much they hated me,
34:28and that was more disturbing than anything I had ever seen,
34:31and that was the most direct sort of inspiration for the play.
34:35So, Peter, without it being shoved down a viewer's throat,
34:38this is based a lot on generational divide.
34:41It really is, yeah.
34:43As the older, wiser of the people here I'm interviewing in the panel,
34:50I'm just curious when you hear even what Max just said.
34:54It's insane.
34:57I don't know what you people are doing.
34:59I could just watch you guys talk about the show
35:02because I do want to get a sense of how you first felt
35:05when you read the script, when you were first approached with it,
35:08and I know for you, Sydney, it frightened you.
35:10Oh, yeah, it terrified me.
35:13It contains things that reflect our world in a real way,
35:18and they're dark,
35:20and I think that that's kind of what connects with people.
35:22It really speaks to the present moment,
35:24and it leaves people grappling with a lot of things
35:27that are maybe the underbelly of tech or the Internet,
35:32but that are true,
35:34and, yeah, it frightened me for sure.
35:38And we should note that the show is based on your character
35:44being a content moderator at a Facebook-like technology company
35:48going in for a therapy session.
35:50You are the therapist, Peter,
35:52and you had a nervous breakdown in the office,
35:56and that went viral.
35:57It was caught on tape and video,
35:59as so many of these moments are in present day,
36:02and thus to keep your job,
36:04HR sends you first to be analyzed by a professional,
36:08and, again, trying to grasp this new concept of social media
36:12in a world where no one can live without it.
36:14What is your relationship with social media?
36:17Well, as the representative of the older generation in this,
36:22I just don't see the purpose
36:25of going that deep into all these other worlds,
36:30the Instagram and the sharing,
36:32and it doesn't make sense to me personally.
36:35My wife has dabbled a little bit,
36:37but I don't get it.
36:40And every day you read about somebody who's been online
36:45and something terrible happens.
36:47You go, I don't need a presence there.
36:50What's the deal?
36:52But this gang does.
36:54And so how much of your own research did you have to do
36:56in preparing for a role as a therapist for this specific topic?
37:00We've all been to therapy a zillion times,
37:03so I know what the deal is, how they behave,
37:08and I've been through a lot myself.
37:12But it's what the character is dealing with
37:16that we don't hear about until later
37:19that sparks how I do what I do,
37:24and the idea is to talk this person down,
37:28talk this person down from the ledge.
37:30Max, do you view the role of social media,
37:32specifically as it's portrayed in this play,
37:35as a useful tool or as something
37:38that ultimately is more harmful to society?
37:42I think we are still grappling with the fact
37:45that it's just a ubiquitous part of society,
37:49and there's this sort of now false dichotomy, I think,
37:52between online and offline that doesn't really exist anymore.
37:57We're always online.
38:00What happens on the internet has profound resonance
38:04with our lived reality, I think,
38:07most directly and saliently with the 2016 election,
38:12where anyone, I think, on Twitter or 4chan or Reddit
38:16could have told you that those polls are wrong.
38:19So I think that whether it's good or bad
38:24isn't really for me to say,
38:26but we need to start understanding it
38:28on a deeper level, and we need to start modeling
38:31what a healthy relationship with it looks like.
38:33And you can see it repeating itself with AI now,
38:36where people are still having this conversation
38:38of whether we should use it or not.
38:40It's too good a technology for people not to use it,
38:43and that's not an opinion.
38:44We're going to use it.
38:45So we need to put blocks in place
38:49and try to, again, model what a healthy relationship
38:52with this technology can look like,
38:54because I don't think we have that
38:56for contemporary social media.
38:58It's either good or bad,
39:00and I don't think that's the question anymore.
39:02And, Sydney, I think it's safe to say
39:04that your relationship with social media,
39:06your character's relationship with social media,
39:08is not a healthy one.
39:09You, though, are insistent on going back to your job.
39:14I'm wondering how much in your life
39:17and how much in studying for this role,
39:19have you ever been in a situation
39:21where you're so committed to a job
39:24or a part of your life that you just can't quit,
39:27even though it perhaps is not the best for you?
39:30Hmm.
39:32Well, I think that a life in the arts
39:37is not always the easiest one,
39:39and it's a certain calling, I think,
39:42to when you feel a calling in you to be an actor.
39:47Maybe it echoes the calling that Jane, my character, feels
39:50in what she does.
39:52And so it's something that, yeah, it's not always easy,
39:56but you feel a drive that you must continue on that path.
40:01So I guess I do feel those things have similarity.
40:04I mean, you really get a sense from your performance
40:07and your character that your job is urgent and much needed.
40:11Yes. Yeah.
40:13I think that she does content moderation.
40:17She sifts through the filth of the Internet.
40:19It's not an easy job, but in the play she says,
40:21somebody has to do it, and that's really the truth.
40:26People, you know, AI can help with this job.
40:29This job can be pushed off into different countries,
40:33but ultimately someone has to sift.
40:39Yeah, and it's funny because watching the play,
40:42I've never thought of the job of a content moderator.
40:45Obviously somebody has to do it, and it's an important job,
40:48but you actually spent some time, I've read,
40:51with a content moderator at a real company, right,
40:55at a party and got a sense of what that entails.
40:58Very briefly, yeah.
41:00I also had no idea about what it was,
41:02but, you know, the Internet is so fascinating
41:06because it's, again, all around us.
41:08It affects so much of our lived reality,
41:10but we sort of engage with it like it's magic.
41:13We don't understand.
41:14We sort of conceptualize it as, like, floating in the air.
41:17We don't think of it as being, you know, cloud storage,
41:19as being, like, real servers that actually exist
41:22and need cooling and have an energy expenditure,
41:25and I think off of that, like, content moderation,
41:28there's a human labor cost to us
41:30mindlessly scrolling on TikTok,
41:32and that's so fascinating to me that we do this thing
41:36that gets sort of portrayed as being without thought,
41:40and really there's someone sitting behind the screen
41:43having to do this terrible labor so that we can do this,
41:47and I think if there's one social message of the play,
41:51which I don't really love when there is in,
41:54at least my work, so much,
41:56I think it's just trying to get people
41:58to think a little deeper about what makes it possible
42:02for them to be on their phones.
42:04Here's a constant question that you get
42:06for anybody on a Broadway show
42:08or a show that you're repeating nightly
42:10to a different audience.
42:11Is it harder or easier for you to repeat such a dynamic and...
42:18That's the question.
42:19It's a hard role to play, and to do it every night.
42:23How do you do that?
42:25There's freedom in the structure that we've built.
42:28We've built something, and when people ask,
42:31how do you do it, how do you keep it fresh,
42:34a lot of it is that we're still figuring it out.
42:36Even though we've performed this off-Broadway twice,
42:39we're still working to uncover the truth
42:42of what these characters are living through.
42:45And a lot of it doesn't come from effort,
42:49but from release, sort of, just releasing into the story.
42:53Do you notice a difference in their performance each night?
42:56I do, but also there's such a solid core
43:00and such a solid foundation.
43:02I think the beauty with live theater,
43:04the process, I think, of producing a play
43:06is all about, similarly, a releasing and giving it away.
43:10So I think the thing that changes every night
43:12is the audience.
43:13And sometimes it's a very laughy, vocal audience,
43:17and that changes the texture of the play
43:20in really interesting ways.
43:21I mean, no one gets to watch it the way that I do,
43:24which is with a fine, fine, fine-toothed comb,
43:28and I think that makes me enjoy it more
43:31when I do get to see it, because I'm like,
43:33oh, they found this minute moment
43:35that no one else is going to notice,
43:37but, like, that's never been there before.
43:39Like, this one gesture, this one, you know,
43:42pushing the hair behind the ear,
43:44that changes the dynamic of the scene for me.
43:46So it's very exciting.
43:47And I love how you've woven comedy throughout as well.
43:51I mean, I just wonder, when you're sitting there on stage
43:54and hearing the audience laugh at times,
43:57you know, I wouldn't necessarily describe this as a comedy,
44:01but the writing itself.
44:03I mean, how hard, how long did it take you
44:07to get it to this point?
44:09I started writing the play,
44:11I started outlining it in 2018,
44:14so it's been a minute.
44:17The comedy, I just, like,
44:18I can't really engage with anything
44:20that takes itself holistically seriously.
44:24It was a little,
44:25I think a lot of the comedy is accidental.
44:27I would put it right back on these guys.
44:29I think they've found a lot of comedic moments.
44:32I think there's this interesting psychological thing
44:34that happens is, like, once people start laughing,
44:37they kind of don't stop.
44:38And then in our play, there comes a moment
44:40where, like, they really have to stop,
44:42and that's a very satisfying thing as a writer,
44:45to be like, oh, we've kind of tricked you
44:46and lulled you into thinking it's this thing,
44:48and it's actually this other thing.
44:50I was there for opening night,
44:51and it was quite an emotional speech you gave
44:53that night at the end of the show.
44:55I mean, you're a first-time playwright.
44:56You're not even 30.
44:57You're a director.
44:58It's his first time directing as well.
45:00Crazy.
45:01You were introduced to this by your daughter, Sadie.
45:04I mean, what does it say for the future of theater,
45:08especially Broadway theater,
45:09to have such a young ensemble?
45:11And it's not just the writing, the directing.
45:13The producers, too.
45:14I mean, it has this very fresh, young,
45:17next-generation vibe to it.
45:19Yeah.
45:20Yeah, it's really exciting.
45:22It feels like we're representing a community
45:26that's rapidly ascending from downtown,
45:30and it's a real honor to be in this position,
45:33sort of in some respect representing them
45:36and representing the people that we came up around.
45:39And I think the most exciting newness
45:43has to do with the audience.
45:44I mean, we've been sort of a disproportionate hit
45:47amongst younger people,
45:48and we've talked to a lot of people
45:50for whom this is, like, the first play
45:52that they've ever seen in New York,
45:53and that's the most exciting and gratifying thing to me
45:56as a writer, to get new, young people in
45:59to see theater.
46:00And it's obvious that it resonates
46:01with so many people of all ages.
46:04Differently between the ages, but it resonates, yeah.
46:06And, Peter, you last appeared on Broadway
46:08in 12 Angry Men 20 years ago.
46:11Yeah.
46:12And there's a connection here,
46:13because in the film version, 12 Angry Men,
46:16Jack Lemmon, your grandfather, starred.
46:19Just wondering what this...
46:20I never talked about that.
46:21No, you never did.
46:22What this experience has been like
46:24for the two of you and the relationship
46:26that's come out of it.
46:28We're besties.
46:29Good.
46:30That's awesome.
46:31It's just been a privilege, first and foremost,
46:35but really a joy to get to work with somebody
46:40as skilled and good and kind as Peter,
46:45and it's just been fun.
46:47We really like each other.
46:49It's been easy, and I, you know, there's...
46:52Sid says quite a lot in the show,
46:54and I've seen this thing a million times,
46:56and it's always different,
46:57and it's always a different thrust
47:00from the very beginning,
47:01and I love seeing how it takes her
47:04through the entire 80 minutes.
47:06It's just what you want.
47:08It's fantastic.
47:09The chemistry between the two of you,
47:10the dialogue, I can hang on every single word
47:13sitting in the audience,
47:14and I just, I know we'll see a lot more of you
47:17in the future.
47:18I imagine an award or two,
47:19perhaps specifically for this role.
47:22I know the play's been extended
47:23through the end of October,
47:25so congratulations.
47:27Thank you for having us.
47:28It's a wonderful show.
47:29Thank you so much for joining us.
47:31Thank you so much.
47:32I appreciate it.
47:33I loved that show,
47:34and I loved that conversation.
47:35Well, this week, Taylor Swift
47:36wrapped up a record-breaking run of shows in London,
47:38and amongst her surprise guests
47:40was singer, songwriter,
47:41and producer extraordinaire Jack Antonoff.
47:44He's famous for producing many of her biggest hits,
47:47along with many other artists,
47:49and is a major musician in his own right
47:51with his band Bleachers.
47:53They are touring with their new self-titled album,
47:55and Christian caught up with Antonoff in London
47:57ahead of their appearance at the Reading Festival.
48:00Here's a sneak peek of that conversation.
48:03Jack Antonoff, welcome to the program.
48:05Thank you for having me.
48:06I have a lot to ask you,
48:07but I do actually want to start
48:09by your appearance on this stage
48:12with Taylor Swift,
48:14which was pretty amazing.
48:15Did you expect it?
48:16What was it like?
48:18I mean, I'm the least nervous
48:22the more surreal it gets.
48:24I'd be more nervous talking to you
48:26than being in front of that many people.
48:29You seem to be a seriously cool guy
48:32when it comes not just to music,
48:34but who you produce,
48:35and especially you produce
48:37a lot of very powerful women,
48:39and I don't know whether you started
48:42by identifying women
48:44or whether it was just something
48:46that came to you.
48:47How did it start with Taylor Swift,
48:49for instance?
48:51That started as organic as possible.
48:53We literally met completely outside
48:56of even anything really industry,
48:59like kind of through friends
49:00and just playing music that we liked.
49:02One thing leads to another.
49:04Look, you've worked on 11 of her albums,
49:06but beyond that,
49:07you've won a lot of Grammys,
49:10and particularly you've won
49:11Producer of the Year
49:12for the last three years.
49:14Yeah, it's bananas.
49:15What is...
49:16I don't even know whether you can,
49:18but can you say
49:19what is more satisfying,
49:20what you like better?
49:21Is it producing?
49:22Is it being a musician?
49:23Is it being a performer?
49:25Is it doing your own stuff?
49:27I've never experienced
49:29any of them without each other,
49:31so I don't know.
49:33I know for other people
49:34they're very different.
49:35You know, I have a lot of friends
49:36who love being in the studio
49:38and despise being on the road,
49:40or some people get exhausted
49:42by the studio and need to perform.
49:44They're very much one thing to me.
49:46I've never been in the studio
49:48and not thought about live.
49:50I've never been on stage
49:51and not imagined
49:52what I was going to do
49:53next in the studio.
49:54You seem quite shy
49:56in your interaction,
49:58and you are...
50:00I mean, maybe you're not,
50:01but you have associated yourself,
50:04both in your professional life
50:06and in your personal life,
50:08with what I said earlier,
50:09with some very strong,
50:10prominent women,
50:11and not just famous women,
50:12women who are incredibly
50:13women of substance,
50:14whether it's the musicians
50:15we've talked about,
50:16whether you've dated people
50:17like Scarlett Johansson,
50:19Lena Dunham.
50:20You're married now
50:21to Margaret Qualley,
50:22who's in an amazing new film
50:23called The Substance,
50:24which is not yet out.
50:25Yeah, The Substance
50:26is outstanding.
50:27Yeah, I'm waiting to see it.
50:28It's really, really edgy.
50:32You feel totally secure
50:33with very strong women
50:35and successful women.
50:36I think so.
50:37I don't know.
50:38I mean, I'm not...
50:39What attracts you to that lot?
50:40I've always felt
50:41very comfortable around people
50:43who are comfortable
50:44with themselves,
50:45and that's usually people
50:46who end up having some power
50:49because that's a nice trait.
50:52But yeah, I just like,
50:53I like people who know
50:54what they want to do
50:55and hear what they hear
50:56and just want to go find it,
50:57and then we can have
50:58our big crisis of the day
51:00of what we should have
51:01for lunch,
51:02not about what we want
51:03to say to the world.
51:05One of the things
51:06you did say to the world
51:07through your profession
51:08was The Getaway Car.
51:10You have that song.
51:12It went viral,
51:13and it was part of
51:14the joint appearance
51:15the other night,
51:16and I'm just going to play
51:17a little bit of it.
51:18I'm in a getaway car
51:20Oh!
51:21And I'm losing my...
51:23Something.
51:24Think about the...
51:25I'm in a getaway car
51:28And you're in the motel bar
51:31Or like...
51:32I'm in the getaway car,
51:33left you in the motel bar,
51:35took the money...
51:36Took the money in the bag
51:37and I stole the...
51:38Put the money in the bag
51:39and I stole the keys.
51:40That was the last time
51:41you ever saw me.
51:42Ah!
51:43You were super energetic
51:44in that clip
51:45that we just showed.
51:46Yeah.
51:47It's the story
51:48behind the story, right?
51:49Well, I think the reason
51:50why that clip
51:51has had such a big life
51:52is because, you know,
51:55everyone wants to tell
51:56the story of the studio.
51:57You know, we see it in film
51:58and TV all the time,
51:59and often the story
52:01is sensationalized
52:03and there's, you know,
52:04candles and heroin
52:05and that version.
52:06And it's not really true.
52:07You know, the studio
52:08is an interesting place,
52:09but it's a place
52:10that you plant yourself in
52:12and you're almost
52:13like fishing or something.
52:14You're like waiting
52:15to catch something
52:16and you're trying
52:17all these different things.
52:18I think the reason
52:19why that video
52:20has had such a big life
52:21is because it's one
52:22of the few videos
52:23I've ever seen
52:24and I happen to be in it,
52:25but that really captured
52:26the moment when two people
52:27get the idea for a thing.
52:30And I don't know why
52:31she was recording that,
52:32but she was.
52:33And it's the only video
52:34I've ever been a part of
52:35where I'm like, yeah,
52:36that was really the moment.
52:37That was it when we put
52:39this together and this
52:40and it speaks to that
52:42one plus one equaling
52:43a billion.
52:44You see two people
52:45kind of one-upping
52:46each other.
52:47And those are those moments
52:48when you really get the song.
52:50I'm going to play another one,
52:51your song Modern Girl,
52:53which is on your new album.
52:54You kind of joke.
52:55I think you're joking.
52:56There's certainly
52:57New Jersey lyrics.
52:58We're going to play that.
52:59I think you're joking.
53:02I guess I'm New Jersey's
53:03finest New Yorker,
53:04most reliable reporter,
53:06pop music hoarder,
53:07some guy playing hoarders.
53:09But I'm wearing
53:10a heart attack, baby.
53:12I'm wrecking freedom,
53:13heart attack.
53:14So kiss me on the cheek
53:17and get a long goodbye.
53:20Cause I'm rolling
53:21on a modern girl.
53:23It's like a modern girl.
53:26It's really danceable.
53:27What's pop music hoarder?
53:29Oh, well, that whole,
53:31that whole, you know,
53:32I was sort of,
53:33so that song started as me
53:35trying to take the piss
53:36out of the world.
53:37And then whenever I'm
53:38going like that,
53:39I always think I should
53:40go like that.
53:41So I started writing it.
53:42Did you get that criticism?
53:43Pop music hoarder?
53:44Oh, not in that way.
53:46But I wanted to create
53:48just a half a verse
53:50that was sort of like
53:51all like the ways you could
53:53take the piss out of me.
53:54So like New Jersey's
53:55finest New Yorker
53:56seemed funny to me.
53:58It just seems like
53:59an absurd statement.
54:01Unreliable reporter.
54:03That speaks to like
54:04all the hypocrisy
54:05of being a writer.
54:06You know, in my version
54:07of writing,
54:08there's no fact checking.
54:09And there shouldn't be.
54:11It's whatever I feel
54:12whenever I feel it.
54:13And some of the stories
54:14are brutally honest
54:15and some of them
54:16are utter distortions.
54:19Pop music hoarder,
54:20I think that I was,
54:22you know, taking the piss
54:23out of the idea
54:24of like people who,
54:25you know, feel like
54:27I keep popping up
54:28in all these places.
54:30And then some guy
54:31playing quarters
54:32just speaks to like,
54:33hey, I'm just
54:34some person also.
54:35Jack Antonoff,
54:36thank you very much.
54:37Thanks for having me.
54:38And finally,
54:39love and loss
54:40know no bounds.
54:41Sven, one half
54:42of the beloved
54:43Gen 2 Penguin Power couple,
54:45has sadly passed away.
54:46He and his partner, Magic,
54:48shot to fame
54:49for their same-sex
54:50love story in 2018.
54:52Now from the moment
54:53they met at Sydney's
54:54Sea Life Aquarium,
54:55the pair seemingly
54:56had eyes only
54:57for each other,
54:58nurturing two young chicks
55:00and recently
55:01celebrating
55:02their six-year anniversary.
55:04Well, upon seeing
55:05his soulmate's
55:06lifeless body,
55:07Magic broke into
55:08song in apparent mourning
55:10and the rest
55:11of the colony
55:12then joined him.
55:13While a Sven-shaped hole
55:14has been left
55:15in the hearts of many,
55:16the legacy
55:17of their iconic
55:18relationship lives on.
55:21And that's it
55:22for our program tonight.
55:23If you want to find out
55:24what's coming up
55:25on the show each night,
55:26check out our newsletter
55:27at PBS.org
55:28slash Amanpour.
55:29Thank you for watching
55:30Amanpour & Company on PBS.
55:31Join us again next time.