Jared Weiss covers the Boston Celtics and the NBA for The Athletic. Jared joins the program to chat about the NBA Finals, how the Celtics can attempt to silence Luka Doncic, and how this Boston run is different than 2022. Twitter: @JaredWeissNBA
3:41 What to expect in the Finals
10:56 Luka could steal the series
15:01 Is KP more important on offense or defense?
23:08 Tatum is feeling the game, not forcing anything
30:10 Kyrie certainly has matured
41:19 Stop tearing Smart down
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3:41 What to expect in the Finals
10:56 Luka could steal the series
15:01 Is KP more important on offense or defense?
23:08 Tatum is feeling the game, not forcing anything
30:10 Kyrie certainly has matured
41:19 Stop tearing Smart down
Prize Picks! Get in on the excitement with PrizePicks, America’s No. 1 Fantasy Sports App, where you can turn your hoops knowledge into serious cash. Download the app today and use code CLNS for a first deposit match up to $100! Pick more. Pick less. It’s that Easy! Go to https://PrizePicks.com/CLNS
Gametime! Take the guesswork out of buying NBA tickets with Gametime. Download the Gametime app, create an account, and use code CLNS for $20 off your first purchase. Download Gametime today. Last minute tickets. Lowest Price. Guaranteed. Terms apply. Go to https://gametime.co !
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00:00 And I think he might be better at it than Rudy.
00:03 Like, I think he might be better equipped to handle it than Rudy Gobert.
00:06 Maybe not, I'm not really sure. We'll see how it plays out, presuming Chris Lobbs comes back and he's good.
00:10 But, like, they need somebody that can just deter some of those Lobbs.
00:15 And, like, the Celtics, they have the point of attack defenders that,
00:20 if Luka and Kyrie are working their way in there, and KP is in that drop,
00:24 and they're waiting for that pocket to open up up above to throw the alley-oop,
00:28 they can make life uncomfortable, they can poke out the ball.
00:31 Like, I think the Celtics can probably handle that action better than anybody else in the NBA can.
00:36 Celtics Beat is powered by PrizePix, the exclusive daily fantasy partner of the CLNS Media Network.
00:43 What's up, everyone? We have an NBA Finals edition of Celtics Beat here on the CLNS Media Network.
00:52 Welcome. It's great to be with you. Adam Koffman, Evan Valente.
00:55 I know sometimes you have just the one of us. There was no way you weren't going to get both with the finals coming up here.
01:02 And, of course, we have Jared Weiss from The Athletic, who at one point in time also hosted episodes of Celtics Beat.
01:07 So it's nice to really bring the trio together to dissect and to anticipate what is to come in front of us.
01:15 Boston against Dallas. I think we can all agree this is the very popularly known Chris Tapps-Porzingis Bowl.
01:22 That's what everybody is talking about, the fact that Porzingis played for both teams.
01:25 And how is anything else possibly at the center of this matchup?
01:30 Oh, there's that Kyrie Irving guy. Yeah, we're going to get into that, obviously.
01:36 But the finals begin, as you know, on Thursday. And so it's sort of the countdown until that.
01:41 And this is a spread out series, you know, for people that were thinking, as I kind of was just intuitively,
01:46 oh, we've got every other day kind of thing. It's going to be games, you know, fast and furious.
01:50 Not the case. Oftentimes, two days between games, plenty of travel allowed for these teams as well.
01:56 So NBA Finals, if we get the long series, a lot of people are anticipating are going to be part of our lives for much of the month of June.
02:04 The question is, who is going to win? Jared, how are you, buddy? Welcome.
02:09 Ready for it. This is going to be fun. So this it is going to be fun.
02:14 Anyone who is a regular listener or viewer of this show on the CLNS YouTube page knows.
02:19 And I mean, correct me if if I'm misrepresenting this, I don't think I am knows that I took the heat lightly.
02:28 I took the Cavaliers lightly. I took the Pacers lightly.
02:33 I really didn't think either of them, you know, or any of the three of them were going to put up much of a fight against the Celtics.
02:39 And while the Pacers, you could certainly say game to game, absolutely did.
02:44 It was still a sweep, you know, sweep is a sweep. And so, you know,
02:48 ultimately Boston really did what it needed to do through three series.
02:51 I look at this Mavericks team and I may maybe it's the the Luca and Kyrie of it all,
02:58 you know, the the top endedness of it, but I like that supporting cast quite a bit as well when healthy
03:05 and we presume that Derek Lively is going to be out there after getting kicked in the back of the head and neck repeatedly
03:11 during that last round against the Timberwolves.
03:14 This is a team that while I do still believe guys that Boston is understandably the heavy favorite
03:20 and should win and this should be should be a five or six game series.
03:26 I don't think it's going to be an easy one. I think that Dallas is, you know,
03:30 it put up more of a fight certainly against Minnesota than I anticipated.
03:34 I thought Oklahoma City was going to be Dallas in the second round.
03:36 So this is a team that I have sort of kind of been wrong about all the way through.
03:42 What is your just initial read Jared on what to expect in this series?
03:47 I disagree that this will be a five game series.
03:50 Like I think this should be a six or seven game series.
03:53 One of the things that Dallas is really good with that is that you we've seen throughout this postseason run.
03:59 Boston has been trying to take away threes.
04:01 Joe Missoula has been harping on three-point shot distribution
04:05 and wanting his team to have a huge advantage in the number of threes attempted
04:08 in Dallas is so good at being able to create those opportunities
04:12 in ways that the Celtics can't really take away and you know,
04:15 when Luka and Kyrie are getting downhill,
04:17 they're usually able to get deep into the paint get to that floater range
04:21 and then their options are lob over the top to a seven-footer or kick out to the corner
04:26 and they're just so good at creating those looks and so,
04:30 you know, the Celtics could just gift them those floaters
04:33 and take away those other passing opportunities,
04:35 but it's Kyrie and Luka. So they're going to score 75 points a piece if you give them every floater.
04:39 So this team isn't really a team you can necessarily solve mathematically
04:45 and strategically in the way that these other teams Celtics have gone against have been able to do
04:50 and so the variance is there for Dallas to be really hot shooting the ball
04:55 and actually make this a really competitive series.
04:59 Yeah, I'm with that. I think what's going to be really interesting for Boston is
05:02 the Dallas offense is going to be a little different than what they've,
05:05 you know, played throughout the postseason.
05:07 I think a lot of people when they refer to Dallas talk about Luka and Kyrie ad nauseum easily,
05:14 but Jared like one of the things I think it's lost in the dust is the vertical spacing they get like
05:18 the lively gaffer and lobs to the rim is nothing that Boston has not seen anything like this yet.
05:24 There was no Jared Allen and Evan Mobley.
05:27 I thought was more of like maybe a low post guy that may be an above the rim kind of guy
05:31 in that series. I felt like in the previous one,
05:34 you know, Bam has given Boston fits in that capacity in years past.
05:38 I don't think it was as big of a deal in their opening round series with Miami that the lob threat to me.
05:44 Like this is a two-pronged thing to me one. The lob threat is going to be really interesting how Boston defends that
05:50 and then the corner threes that that Dallas can generate is also kind of interesting to me Boston notoriously.
05:57 This has been a stat everybody's spewed it out and what's been interesting to me is they haven't gone a little bit further back.
06:03 Boston teams basically since Brad Stephens has got to Boston has done a really good job of limiting corner threes
06:09 and just trying to keep everything in front of them.
06:12 This is a Dallas team that's really efficient at getting that shot.
06:16 So to me, how does Boston defend the corner three? How do they defend the lob game?
06:20 That's the two biggest questions I have for Boston going to the same Jared.
06:24 I know about you. Yeah, there's that.
06:27 You know, the other funny thing is I think Boston has given up like the lowest free throw attempt rate for it's offensively like ever in playoff history.
06:37 It's like they nobody has gotten to the line against them and you know, Luca is someone who could just manufacture fouls, right?
06:45 And so it adds two things to the mix here. It's one just getting more easy attempts.
06:52 And then it's also Celtics haven't dealt with foul trouble at all in this postseason run.
06:56 Like one of the things where they haven't had any real attrition is it's been really rare guys have gotten into foul trouble and it's disrupted their sub patterns.
07:03 And so, you know, I still am trying to figure out how you do the matchups here.
07:07 Like putting drew on Luca. I think seems like it makes sense at first blush.
07:12 That seems like the most obvious of like a guy that can handle the strength probably won't be able to just get pushed out of the way at the point of attack.
07:19 It can still smartly contest him. That seems like it makes the most sense.
07:22 Also drew holidays, the best perimeter defender in the NBA, probably another reason why that would make sense.
07:27 But then you think about how good Kyrie Irving is attacking closeouts.
07:31 That's like a lot of his offense comes from. He's so smart and patient when he gets the ball swung to him on the elbow of waiting till the closeout gets to him and then just kind of slipping right by them and getting deep in the paint.
07:41 And I think one thing that drew is amazing at is he's so good at quick early closeouts while staying on two feet and being able to handle that drive and then still steer the drive away.
07:51 So like, do you just throw your other guys at Jalen and make sure drew is kind of there just to put out all these fires with his closeouts and not let Dallas get deep dribble penetration?
07:59 Because as soon as Dallas gets the ball inside the paint, like the alley is immediately in play.
08:04 Like Luca had a play in the last game, I think against Minnesota, where he's coming down transition.
08:09 He sees Derrick Jones at like half court and just throws the alley up all Derek Jones is still behind the three point line.
08:15 Like their their anticipation is incredible. And so the Celtics have to be super cautious and disciplined on not running themselves out of rotation.
08:24 Because as soon as Dallas hits the paint, like that play could be over really quickly.
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09:46 I'm oversimplifying this from a matchup and overall defensive strategy perspective.
09:53 So understand that as I say it, because I could I could just envision, you know, either or both of you, you know, sort of shaking your heads at this.
10:00 But, you know, thinking back throughout what we've seen so far in the playoffs, I think that the Celtics, you know,
10:05 they were perfectly content to let Bam do whatever he wanted in round one.
10:09 It's let's slow down the supporting cast. I think in the second round, at least, you know, pre Mitchell getting hurt,
10:15 it was kind of the same strategy with him. Then he went down and it was OK, whether it's Garland or somebody else,
10:21 you know, we're going to like the one guy he can do his we're going to try and contain everybody else.
10:27 The Pacers got a little trickier in the halibut and went down. But I certainly think in those last couple of games, it was all right.
10:33 Like Nembhard is going to be the focal point of that offense. He's going to facilitate. He's going to score.
10:38 He's going to put up his big numbers, his big stat line. But again, the other guys, we need to at least.
10:45 Attempt to kind of stifle or I use the word contain, I'll use it again in this one,
10:52 especially when you think back to the regular season meetings, I know there were a long time ago,
10:57 you know, one in January, one in March, both won by the Celtics, one in an absolute blowout.
11:01 The other was what, nine, 10 points. So Boston won both of those games.
11:05 Rosters were pretty similar in one of those matchups. But, you know, I think what does jump out is Luca was Luca, right?
11:12 He had two triple doubles, one massive triple double. I would fully expect Luca is going to have a great series.
11:18 Luca is going to be Luca. I think Joe and you know him better than I do, obviously, Jared,
11:23 and you talk to him on a regular basis. But I sort of you know, if we're to attempt to get inside his head a little bit,
11:29 I think Joe, you know, would probably say to himself, look, I mean, we can't we can't slow that guy's, you know, down.
11:36 We can, you know, put drew or someone on him. We can attempt to make his life more difficult.
11:40 But Luca is still one of the top players in the world. He's still going to put up his numbers.
11:44 But if we can, you know, make Kyrie's life a little bit harder, you know, limit him to 18, 20 points versus 30.
11:53 If we can contain the Gaffords, the Washingtons, the Jones, you know, those guys,
11:58 then it doesn't really matter what Luca does because there are only so many games within a seven game series that he can beat us by himself.
12:08 There's there's at least four and he can do it.
12:11 He's that could like like I don't think we should underestimate how good Luca is.
12:15 Luca is playing at that level, like the level where it's like this guy can just win the series on his own if he really wants to,
12:21 because Dallas is supporting cast has been shooting the ball well enough that like it could happen.
12:25 I think the big thing is so you can't get the double coverage to get into double coverage.
12:29 What's even the point at that point? Maybe they could pull it off. I'm sure they'll try to pull it off just to mix things up.
12:35 You can slow Luca down. Like I know Luca's whole thing is like I want to slow it down as much as possible.
12:40 Like that's fine. I would rather him do that and cook you and like you notice I'm cooking you,
12:45 then have the offense in a rhythm and having everybody staying hot, getting baskets off of cuts,
12:52 like getting defense and rotation so much that you're giving up wide open threes that are deflating.
12:57 Like you want them like you want PJ Washington to go two for nine from three.
13:00 You don't want him to go four for eight and get a bunch of wide open ones.
13:04 If he's flexing on you like you're trying to really control.
13:07 You're trying to tamper the excitement for everyone else around Luca.
13:10 And the best way you can do that is just to stay in front of Luca and really make him work.
13:14 I know that like Luca's stamina is pretty phenomenal,
13:18 but the guy like the guy they're the Celtics are probably going to make him work on defense.
13:22 Like there are ways to get him to wear down a little bit over the course of the night
13:26 and we know he's very resilient, but the more work you can make him do earlier in the game,
13:30 the less energy is going to have that when he starts taking those step backs
13:34 and pull-ups late in the fourth quarter,
13:36 he might start missing a little bit because his legs aren't under him all the way.
13:38 So that's like I feel like that's that's what you got to do
13:41 and it's going to be a lot of pain in that process.
13:43 But Celtics have enough dynamic talent that while Dallas's guys are dragging
13:48 their they have like your salmon is a little bit taxed Boston will have people
13:52 that are still fresh at the end of the game that can really handle all the offensive duties.
13:56 Yeah, it's a big reason why finishing off a lot of these series
13:59 and four and five is a huge advantage for Boston.
14:02 I mean, you know, we all looked at Al Horford in the middle of the Cleveland series sitting.
14:06 Oh, I don't know. I mean it might be a little might be a little bit past Al's bedtime
14:10 or something like that. Like I just didn't feel right.
14:12 He didn't look as spry the legs underneath the jump shot weren't there
14:16 and then yeah, he gets a long layoff and looks a lot better in the end of series.
14:19 Although defensively wasn't great offensively was much much better.
14:23 Boston's ability to rest golf and we've talked about this playing with your food versus getting things done.
14:28 I think this is a team and they've said it,
14:31 you know throughout the the pros, you know, the press game the postgame press conferences
14:34 and stuff of the week that they've learned this is a little different from the second time around, right?
14:39 They've learned a little bit more about how to really compete in the playoffs.
14:42 And I wonder if some of the lessons that they learned from the Warriors not I'll call it slightly collapsed there,
14:50 but the Warriors some of the mistakes they made, you know,
14:54 taking six games to beat the Atlanta Hawks, you know, that was extremely frustrating,
14:59 you know having to play seven games against Milwaukee and then another seven game series of Miami.
15:05 This is a team that's definitely going to be well rested.
15:07 And as we look towards Thursday, which feels like an eternity away here,
15:11 you know, Boston's going to at least play with the most rested legs.
15:14 They've played in a postseason run and basically the entire time in the Jason and Jalen era, I think right?
15:22 I would think so. Right? I mean, it's I mean you're talking about what 10 days off nine days between games for this Celtics team
15:29 and you know, which we haven't touched on other than just ingest off the top with the commonality between the two teams.
15:35 Chris task for Zingas is coming back.
15:37 I mean, I know like Joe hasn't come right out and said, yeah, he's playing game one,
15:41 but all signs point to him playing in game one.
15:43 And you know, Jared, I think that you just like we said and we're not alone.
15:48 Lots of people have said this but we were, you know,
15:50 very vocal about it on this show throughout these playoffs so far that you know,
15:54 if you needed Chris taps for Zingas to win you the Eastern Conference,
15:59 if you needed him at all in these previous series, there was a problem.
16:03 These were very winnable series without his part.
16:06 It doesn't mean he doesn't make your life easier. He's a good player.
16:09 I'm taking nothing away from him. It's just you know, against these previous matchups.
16:13 He was a luxury. How much is he needed now against the Mavericks,
16:17 especially given the amount of bigs they have on this team?
16:20 Yeah, this is the one where you need him. You need him to single-handedly take away the lob threat.
16:24 Like this is defensively the most important moment for his entire time with the Celtics
16:30 because and he's very fortunate because if they were facing Denver
16:33 and he had to defend the post up all night long, you might have gotten screwed.
16:37 It might have been bad Celtics might have lost the big upper hand that the Celtics have here in this matchup
16:43 and why as scary as this matchup might be for them.
16:46 It might be the ideal matchup is because he Chris ops is uniquely qualified to take away a huge component of their offense.
16:55 And I think he might be better at it than Rudy.
16:57 Like I think he might be better equipped to handle it than Rudy Gobert. Maybe not.
17:01 I'm not really sure. We'll see how it plays out presuming Chris ops comes back and he's good.
17:05 But like they need somebody that can just deter some of those labs
17:10 and like the Celtics they have the point of attack defenders that if Luca
17:16 and Kyrie are working their way in there and KP is in that drop
17:19 and they're waiting for that pocket to open up up above to throw the alley-oop.
17:23 They can make life uncomfortable. They can poke out the ball.
17:25 Like I think the Celtics can probably handle that action better than anybody else in the NBA can.
17:32 I guess my question would sticking with Porzingis and the bigs for a second is,
17:36 you know, as much as their three-point offense is going to be important as much as Porzingis is ability to protect the rim,
17:42 especially on labs is going to be a factor here.
17:45 Jer, I'm a little concerned about both of those guys in space against,
17:50 you know, the ball handlers on Dallas,
17:52 you know, you go I go back to the Rudy shot that that that that that Luca hit to finish the game.
18:01 Right? And I just I look at that. I'm like, well, if that's that's Porzingis and if that's Al Horford,
18:05 like I just see the same thing happening here unless the double comes out of nowhere
18:09 and they force Luka off the ball. How big of a concern is that for you heading into the series?
18:14 Because you know, I'm my honestly my if I have like cold sweats waking up in a nightmare.
18:19 That's what I'm thinking about for sure.
18:22 Yeah, I mean there's been very limited examples of KP switching late in games
18:26 and they did a little bit this year and it didn't go.
18:29 Shantae Murray shot that land against where I had go.
18:33 You know, the thing with a Porzingis did wrong.
18:35 I think in that scenario was that he was giving too much space
18:40 and he let Murray get to his spot like Murray is automatic from that nail pull up
18:45 and like I never understand these bigs that let these really good mid-range scores have enough space
18:50 that they can drive to the spot. It's like it doesn't matter if you can test them from his spot.
18:54 He doesn't feel you there. He's taking that shot a million times in his life.
18:57 It doesn't even he can do it with his eyes closed.
19:00 And so, you know, you want like if you want Porzingis to get up on Donchik
19:06 and you also the big thing that I think Gobert did really wrong is you need to read Donchik's feet
19:13 and you know his feet oftentimes he'll sit he'll be dribbling in the split stance his feet never change.
19:19 He can only go where his feet are pointing him like you move on your feet
19:22 and players are always getting caught even looking at like the belly button looking at the shoulders
19:27 and the eyes. It's like you got to follow the guy's feet
19:29 because he can only go where he's pointing towards
19:31 and Gobert completely turned himself around.
19:34 Well when Donchik hit it with the cross, but like Donchik's feet were still in the same spot.
19:38 He still was only really going one direction.
19:41 And so I think Porzingis actually I don't think Porzingis can flip his hips as effectively.
19:46 So I think he kind of has to stay down in his stance anyway,
19:49 so he might be better equipped for those moments.
19:51 And I mean at least with Porzingis it's like Porzingis is wide enough
19:56 that you can't just like go all the way around him.
19:59 So Donchik could use an elbow to get past them.
20:01 But Irving maybe is the harder one because Irving's probably going to tie his shoes up a little bit
20:05 and get him twisted and then get to his shot.
20:07 So Porzingis probably can do an okay job in handling that Donchik switch,
20:12 but if Donchik is getting those switches on him, they're going to do something.
20:16 They're going to start doing some hybrid zone stuff to keep Porzingis on the back line
20:20 and make sure that he doesn't get, you know, stuck out there.
20:23 Quick break from today's show to tell you today's show was brought to you by Game Time.
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22:16 Some of the bigger picture stuff and we can, you know, go back to the series itself,
22:20 but I think this is, you know, where I'm going with this is very relevant to the series
22:25 and in terms of dictating how it's going to go. There have been, I don't need to tell you guys or our listeners,
22:29 but just for the sake of presenting it, there have been, there's been a lot of stupid out there,
22:34 national and local, more so than usual because the elevated stage and NBA Finals and everything like that.
22:40 A lot of, you know, mouth breathers that just, it's amazing what is coming out of their mouths with respect to this team
22:48 and there's a level of disrespect, whether it's, you know, talking about, I don't care about,
22:55 you know, criticizing the path, like you play the games on your schedule, right?
22:59 You play the teams that are in front of you. You can't shape it up any differently.
23:03 This is how the bracket formed and you are the best team. You're the number one seed in the entire NBA.
23:08 If guys keep getting hurt in front of you, then so be it. Luka goes down, people want to make an excuse out of that.
23:14 So be it. All that really matters here is banner 18, obviously,
23:17 but we are now at a point where we are hearing, you know, nationally, like was Jason Tatum happy enough for Jalen Brown
23:25 when he won the Eastern Conference Finals MVP.
23:29 We are hearing locally the, you know, already like jumping ahead to if they like,
23:34 God forbid the Celtics lose this series, who goes? Is Missoula canned?
23:39 Is that your reason that you need to separate the Jays? It's all of, it's all of the everything.
23:44 What I am wondering though, this is the type of thing that I do think about that I think could impact things on the floor.
23:50 I feel like we have seen and Evan and I have talked a lot about this, Jared.
23:54 I think we have seen not a Tatum hasn't been perfect.
23:59 Don't get me wrong. He certainly could be shooting better, especially from distance,
24:03 but I feel like we have seen a really solid version of Tatum this postseason
24:07 where he's not playing quite the same way that he has in the past.
24:11 Now. Yes, he is still leading the team in all the major categories, points,
24:17 rebounds, assists per game, his turnovers,
24:20 which I think does not get enough attention are way down compared to most of his postseason averages in the past.
24:26 I mean, he's he's turning the ball over at a much lower rate than basically every year other than his rookie year
24:31 when he went on that long run of almost 20 games.
24:35 But while he has said repeatedly that the number one thing is banner 18.
24:42 Like if I want to if I want to truly be a Celtic make my name as a Celtic get my number up in the rafters all of that.
24:47 I need to win a title. He has said and I do believe feels all of the right things.
24:52 If the media be a local or national and I do think he pays attention to it to some degree is basically daring him to take over this series
25:01 and make it him against Luca who's the face of the NBA,
25:05 you know, is he going to put Brown in his shadow and go out there and win this thing himself?
25:10 Are we going to see Tatum play a different version at all in this series of what we have seen the past three rounds
25:16 that has obviously worked so well for this team? I don't see why not.
25:21 I you know, it's the what's so interesting about this right is that the Celtics have stuck to their scripts
25:26 and to their principles the entire year and well,
25:30 you know, one of the things that could be a little concerning is that the playoffs have been so easy for them
25:35 that they haven't had to have their identity tested like pretty much at all like a few here or there Indiana series is really tough,
25:43 but they still want all those games and they also kind of like,
25:46 you know where they came from behind and really really exemplified their identity to win all those games.
25:52 So they really held firm and and by the way,
25:56 I think we should contextualize my answer in that the ESPN segment about him not being happy for Jalen where they freeze frame
26:03 and show him smiling was just like and classic absolutely BS like kind of one of the more ridiculous things.
26:10 I think I've ever seen and so you know, like like they're all they're all on the same page
26:16 and she like I did an interview with JT earlier this year where he talked about both like how he really relies on Jalen to allow him to run his game
26:25 and how Jalen is kind of the one that often will put his stamp on the game right away
26:29 and allow JT to kind of find his rhythm over the course of the game.
26:32 Like he relies on that a big thing.
26:35 He said was that he knows that literally nothing besides winning is going to matter at this point
26:41 and that he's been shooting like 25% from three this whole postseason run
26:46 and then still statistically has been at his best and like pretty much every single measure anyway
26:51 and anyone watching could see his defense is taking another level.
26:53 His rebounding has been great play making has been phenomenal for a wing like he's he's playing at an elite level
27:00 and he's playing as good if not the best basketball he's ever played his entire career
27:05 except that he's missing a lot of wide open threes and that obviously matters right?
27:10 It definitely matters but Tatum is still on the aggregate impacting at a higher level than he ever has before
27:16 because he's doing so much else better.
27:19 And so I just don't see how I can't imagine him getting in a pissing contest.
27:23 It's going to really define the series.
27:25 There might be a moment where he goes shot for shot with Luca or Kyrie
27:28 and you know, we saw I think we've seen Jalen do that in the playoffs like that's part of being a star.
27:33 He's are going to do stuff like that.
27:34 And that's a good thing.
27:35 I think it's fine as long as as long as it doesn't tank the entire rhythm of the team
27:40 and I think Tatum and Brown have been really good this year
27:43 at making sure that if they get into a little bit of those star for star pissing contest things,
27:47 they don't let it disrupt both their own effort on the other end
27:51 and their commitment to running the offense and so it hasn't really hurt the team this year.
27:55 So I just don't see I don't see Jason doing it.
27:58 It doesn't line up with everything that he's been about for the last year or two.
28:02 That's the secret sauce of this year.
28:04 Like that's it's the the sacrifice the commitment from everyone,
28:07 you know, we make the highlight all year round of oh, yeah, Al Horford.
28:11 He just said, yeah, I'm coming off the bench with this crew,
28:15 you know, at first it was a lot made of drew holiday sacrificing the most of everyone
28:19 because he's the you know, kind of been there done that and he has the most malleable game
28:24 and I would argue that the Jalen and Jason sacrifices have come a little bit later in the season
28:29 as they figure out exactly how to make this machine move and I agree with Weiss on that.
28:34 I think it's it'd be a little weird if they got out of their rhythm,
28:38 you know again in spurts sure that they want, you know, if Jalen's feeling it,
28:42 of course, let him keep going.
28:43 I think a lot of what happened in game two against Indiana was just get out of the way
28:48 and let Jalen go to work. He's on a heater.
28:51 Like I think the 40th point was an exclamation of that where he just,
28:55 you know, it's like I'll take one shot at 40 see if it works and it was a absolutely,
28:58 you know, kind of a crazy shot to go in for three, but it went in this team understands.
29:02 I think a little bit better that the they're going to they're going to win games by,
29:07 you know, having good team play on both ends of the floor.
29:10 I think it's actually more important that they realize the end of games to really to really tighten the screws defensively.
29:17 If they really wanted to to end Indiana.
29:20 I mean the last was the last two games were they the last three minutes and 50 seconds.
29:25 They want like a 15 to 4 running back-to-back games and then like the last three minutes
29:30 and 50 seconds a game for Indiana didn't score a single point which was really impressive.
29:34 Like this is a team that understands that it takes a lot of guys.
29:38 It takes all five to win some of these close games.
29:41 And that's what I'm thankful for at the end of the day Kaufman is like this is a team.
29:45 It's matured, right? We talked about big picture overall goals on this show all the time.
29:49 The biggest thing that I think it stands out to me is the maturity of this team
29:53 as we've watched them throughout all these years make dumb mistakes.
29:58 They might make some during games that drive me nuts,
30:01 but the end of the game they seem to tighten up when it really matters.
30:04 And again, the tests haven't been that hard yet.
30:07 Although I'd say Indiana was pretty tough.
30:09 But like when we look at big picture because I know you love going big picture.
30:13 It just seems like this is the if any of these teams going to go over the hump the most mature version of this team
30:19 is going to do it. I do think in and again,
30:23 we could circle back to the series matchups X factors any of that stuff that we want to while we're chatting here,
30:28 but you know, one of the bigger picture narratives,
30:31 if you will surrounding this thing both on and especially off the floor obviously is the Kyra Irving is on the other side
30:37 and I really would have thought you know that that one I just I never even thought this was a possibility just
30:43 because I didn't hold the Mavericks in that esteem.
30:46 I always felt it was, you know, a Boston Denver collision course.
30:50 We see the Nuggets knocked off by Minnesota. We'll find that it's going to be the Timberwolves.
30:54 I just I never really entertained the idea of it being the Mavericks in this series.
30:59 And I do think that I guess we'll see, you know proofs in the pudding,
31:03 but I do think that works out well for the Celtics and again the favorable path thing
31:08 and being a what a five seed I think the lowest seed to ever win.
31:12 It was a six, you know, the Rockets back in 95,
31:15 whatever it was, but I just I don't know as someone who probably made a bigger deal out of like Kyrie Irving resentment on social media
31:25 than most other people for a long time,
31:28 you know, really throughout his entire Brooklyn tenure and you know,
31:31 now there's been nothing interesting about his time in Dallas in terms of him making waves.
31:35 So I haven't tweeted about it in a while.
31:37 I thought I'd be kind of in my feelings about this Jared and I just I don't care like yeah,
31:42 I mean the idea of them losing this series and him winning is horrific,
31:47 but it's really not about him. It's them,
31:50 you know squandering an opportunity where they are heavily favored where they should win banner 18.
31:55 I know people want to make a big deal out of him coming back
31:58 and the fans are certainly going to boo him mercilessly and they'll be the whole,
32:01 you know recounting of videos of him stomping the lucky logo at center court and all of that stuff,
32:08 but I don't know. I don't think he's going to do anything at all to play into it.
32:14 You know, I hope the fans I mean give him a hard time.
32:16 Boom have fun. Keep it clean, you know, don't don't cross the line,
32:20 but you know, keep it within the the bounds of just fan like,
32:25 you know, whatever. I mean, that's that's great do that.
32:28 But I don't think Kyrie is going to give it back as he has in the past.
32:33 And so do you feel like the Kyrie Irving element of this series is going to go away pretty quickly?
32:41 No, no, because the okay Friday night.
32:45 I was walking by Fenway Park on the way to a show
32:48 and people were just randomly breaking out into fuck Kyrie chance.
32:51 Like I was just there last night. I was telling Kyrie sucks t-shirts.
32:55 Yeah, it's like yeah, I saw a bunch of this. It's ridiculous people
33:00 and it's kind of like back in the day.
33:02 You'd be at a Celtics game and people will start chanting Yankees suck like right Bostonians.
33:06 Just love saying people suck. And so I don't think I think there's going to be a really disturbing amount of vitriol
33:15 initially and I expect that Kyrie is probably going.
33:19 So okay when Kyrie came to Boston in March, he was it was revelatory to see how at peace he was
33:27 and how he was handling everything. It was like where was this all this time?
33:31 And I think he's let go a lot of anger which you know good for him
33:35 because as much as people want to talk about Boston being mad at him,
33:38 like he also has lots of reasons like he got a lot of you know,
33:40 abuse he got racial abuse. He had water bottles thrown at him.
33:43 Like he as much as like it was fair for him to be villainized in Boston.
33:48 There were fans that went way over the line.
33:50 And when you're in his position, it's like are you really going to say to yourself?
33:54 Well, there's only a few bad eggs. So I can't be mad at everybody,
33:58 you know, it's like it's you're going to you're going to get whatever you experience.
34:01 I don't think Kyrie sitting there listening to all the different nuanced conversations
34:05 about his relationship with Boston. He experiences it from his perspective,
34:08 which probably was pretty awful and that's how it feels for him.
34:10 And so good on him that he was able to grow out of it,
34:13 even if he was certainly the reason for a lot of it happening,
34:17 but he also got a lot of stuff he didn't deserve.
34:19 And so I think he's probably going to try to make himself not the story keep focus on his team winning,
34:26 make it about the team.
34:27 It seems like he has grown and matured in a lot of ways about just like not making it about himself anymore.
34:33 And that was kind of the story with him in Boston,
34:36 whether it was with his teammates or the staff or the fan base.
34:39 It was a lot of like I'm a champion. I can show you guys how to do stuff
34:43 and he just it didn't work and he I think frankly he failed at it in a lot of ways
34:47 and coming into Dallas knowing it's Lucas team wanting to revive his career.
34:52 He's done everything right.
34:53 And now he's actually a pretty enjoyable and sympathetic character,
34:58 which is great. Like we don't I don't want villains.
35:00 I mean, I'm not a fan. So it's like I don't want anyone to be hated
35:03 but like I think it hopefully will just be a nice closure full circle moment.
35:09 And if he can compose himself well,
35:12 and then the fans can respond to that it probably will allow things that dissipate
35:16 but there's obviously just always there's going to be the people walking down the street yelling Kyrie sucks
35:21 and those people are just they just want to watch the world burn
35:23 and if it wasn't Kyrie would probably be somebody else.
35:27 Well, I think also too and this is a credit to him.
35:31 I don't know. I haven't spoken to him about this obviously,
35:34 but I would think that in terms of one's internal growth and it's a difficult pill to swallow,
35:39 but obviously if you come out on the other side of it with the right mindset it you know,
35:43 like you said you can let go of a lot of stuff. It can be really relieving,
35:46 you know, when the Celtics acquired him
35:48 and maybe this was a miscalculation on the part of Danny Ainge or maybe it just didn't work.
35:53 You know, this was a guy who was a number two that wanted to get out of LeBron shadow that wanted to be a number one wanted to be the guy.
35:59 Boston was the first opportunity to do that. It went south.
36:02 He was you know, it was a 1a 1b situation in Brooklyn when he teamed up with Kevin Durant again didn't work
36:09 and like you said goes to Lucas team and he's firmly in that number two spot again,
36:14 and he has thrived. I think it's he's just someone
36:16 where it it works out to where he is,
36:19 you know, still obviously a hell of a player but a complimentary player as opposed to this is my team.
36:26 I'm the leader. Yeah, that's and that's how it has to be.
36:31 He's never been good enough to be the number one guy on a winning team.
36:35 The reason for that is one defensively. You just is defense has gotten better for sure,
36:41 but he wasn't at that level defensively and then his his playmaking style is it's funny
36:48 because now he plays next to Luca who also plays extremely slow,
36:51 but like Kyrie's always wasted a lot of energy trying to shake people instead of being very direct
36:57 and very efficient and I think you need a level of that to really succeed.
37:01 And so, you know because of that and because he wasn't quite like a Steph level sprinting shooter at that level,
37:08 but he's still really good. He just never was quite at that level.
37:10 But you know, I think you could say the same thing about Damien Lillard like Damien.
37:14 If you put Kyrie on those Blazers team, I think teams I think Kyrie would have had a pretty comparable level of output
37:20 and I think he's pretty much that level of player as well.
37:23 Even if he plays a little bit differently and just like if you want to be the top top team,
37:28 you need a guy who either is so big that he can just score at will on the inside
37:32 and get to the line at will which is what Luca can do
37:35 or someone who also makes a major impact on defense, which is what Tatum and like Giannis can do.
37:41 And so Kyrie is just in the perfect situation.
37:44 Yeah, thriving for sure. But he's like it's funny to me that I don't even one of the things I don't really care about is Kyrie coming back to Boston.
37:51 It's more about how is Boston going to stop him versus his past relationship with City.
37:56 I'm I almost like because the on-court stuff to me at this point like the what let's get like it's be honest here
38:04 this entire season has been all about who cares what Boston does if they don't make the finals like who you know,
38:10 it doesn't really matter. Well now that they're here in the finals.
38:12 I don't really care about any of the stuff that's off court at all.
38:15 And it's more just about focusing on these two teams.
38:19 And so for Kyrie, I wonder if it's like maybe a beneficial thing for him.
38:23 I know I know most people are going to try and then like obviously,
38:26 you know, you have all these talking heads that are going to make stories out of this like the next this
38:29 if you think the stories were bad last week, we still have three more days to kill boys.
38:33 Like it's going to get brutal two weeks between you know,
38:37 the championship games and the AFC NFC to the Super Bowl is hard.
38:41 Yeah, just wait and just wait for media day. It's going to be a shit show.
38:45 Yeah, not like I saw Grandy tweet this the other day and I don't expect this to continue.
38:50 I mean it would literally have to be a sweep for it to continue but Kyrie has lost what his last 10 matchups
38:55 with the Celtics going back a few years. So that's that's an impressive number.
38:59 Yeah, he's going to play this time right there,
39:02 but I just don't I don't I find the Kyrie history stuff like just not doesn't move needle for me at all.
39:09 I'm way more concerned about you know, just a matchup problems that Kyrie creates
39:15 and him and Luca creating devastating one two punches
39:19 and like what is boss going to do if those two guys run pick and roll is it going to be,
39:23 you know, Derek White on Luca, you know, I'm just I'm way more concerned about stuff
39:28 because this point like I've been trying to do this.
39:30 I don't know if Jared because you have a different perspective on this than I do for sure.
39:35 But like I have taken the entire season of like every every little checkpoint matters.
39:39 All these things matter. Everybody that's trying to fast forward to the finals.
39:42 Like you can lose me on that. Like I'm going to enjoy this season now.
39:46 If there this is the last four to seven games that we're going to watch for a long time.
39:50 Like I am enjoying all the minutia of everything involved with this series.
39:54 So like the Kyrie stuff doesn't register with me and Kaufman.
39:57 I want to commend you on your growth because like you are by far the biggest Kyrie hater that I know by all.
40:05 There's I can't think of anyone in recent NBA history.
40:08 I have liked less as a person just that I mean, he's a hell of a player,
40:12 but I just detest him as an individual. So yeah, I think I am growing.
40:16 I'm so impressed. I'm so impressed for you. And I don't know.
40:19 I just I don't I don't like the because it's going to take this series like
40:23 we've kind of danced around this a little bit. I think we all anticipate this being a pretty excellent finals, right?
40:29 It's I don't think it's going to be last year where Denver just has their way with Miami the entire time.
40:35 And everybody's yeah, there was going to win this thing. I think this is going to be a this is a fascinating matchup.
40:39 Kaufman, you know me. I I was in on Dallas after watching a lot of the OKC games.
40:45 I'm like, wow, this team really like offensively is way better than I expected and way better than we thought they were going to beat the Timberwolves.
40:51 You were on that early. I just I could not be more impressed with how polished Derek Lively is for a rookie
40:57 and a guy that can really make a lot of interesting passes for someone who has not played a lot of playoff games.
41:03 A lot of basketball in general. I think Dallas defensively does a lot of very interesting things to force the direction of other posing offenses.
41:12 Like I I am so pumped for this final. So it's going to be a real challenge for both of these teams
41:17 and anything that hasn't doesn't have to do with actual basketball. I just don't give a shit about.
41:22 And Kaufman, I just got to. You've come such a long way, buddy. Fantastic job.
41:26 Thank you. I appreciate that. Although let me pull it back because there is an itch I want to scratch,
41:31 which is not I don't want to spend much. I'm going to take this in a direction so that we don't go down the other road where I don't want to waste time.
41:41 So there are certain people in the Boston market, media people, be it on TV, radio, print, whatever,
41:49 who are it's really bothering me who are making it a point to celebrate Drew Holiday's success by really hammering the fact that these are all the reasons,
42:03 X, Y, Z, why you never could have won with Marcus Smart. And I don't know why we need to.
42:11 Put one guy down in order to lift another guy up. I don't know why we can't just say, like, Marcus Smart was a solid Celtic for about a decade and they didn't get over the hump,
42:21 he's gone and yeah, Drew Holiday is amazing. I will be the you know, I will readily admit, Jared.
42:30 I thought they were going to miss Marcus Smart. They haven't at all. Not at all.
42:35 And Drew Holiday has been incredible. I'm not sure I know on this show we have not spoken enough about Drew Holiday because we barely mentioned him other than is he going to be on Luka?
42:43 I think the way that like he had a good regular season wasn't amazing. It was a good regular season.
42:48 I think in many ways he was kind of I think anyway, I'm just assuming sort of preserving himself for this point because he is a champion.
42:57 He's won with Milwaukee. He knows what it takes. And he has had some excellent games here in the playoffs that, you know, again, people want to say you never would have gotten that out of Marcus Smart.
43:06 Who gives a crap? It like leave it the past. He's not here.
43:11 He's gone. Drew Holiday has been exceptional for this team.
43:15 He has been exactly what they have needed here in this postseason run, especially.
43:20 And I think it is, you know, helped obviously mitigate the loss of Chris Dapps for Zingas as well as, you know, Al Horford having some bigger games than maybe one would expect him to have at this point in the season,
43:32 given his age and all of that. But now going forward, you know, again, the fact that he has been here and he has done it, he's the only guy in this roster that has.
43:42 What is Drew Holiday's presence on and off the floor mean for this finals?
43:48 I mean, it's crucial, right on the floor. It's just like you can put you got a guy that you can confidently put on one of the best players in the world.
43:58 And it's I think he's probably the best matchup for Luca that's out there.
44:04 Like everybody was excited to see what Jada McDaniels could do because he's such an elite defender and Luca did pretty well on that matchup and Holiday.
44:12 Holiday is just like, McDaniels is great, but he's young. Holiday has been an elite defender for a very long time.
44:18 And the mental aspect of the game, which Luca challenges you in a way that very few players in NBA history have, Holiday is emotionally, physically, mental, cognitively equipped to handle it.
44:30 And so that's where it gets big first and foremost.
44:34 And then obviously he's just such a good player in the seams on offense, spacing out.
44:39 If they're able to pull Dallas's centers out, he can get a cross match on Kyrie.
44:45 He can hammer Kyrie in the post like he can be and maybe even get Kyrie in foul trouble.
44:49 Like he's going to be an important part of a lot of the things that they're trying to do.
44:53 And then, you know, going back to the Marcus Smart thing, I mean, I never understand people are like, we should be talking about this.
44:58 It's like people just talk about whatever they're feeling, whatever. It's always funny when politicians are like at a time like this, we shouldn't be worrying about this.
45:04 It's like it's always a time like this. You should always be worrying about whatever you're worried about.
45:08 And so like I don't I don't did anyone think that anyone think Drew Holiday and Marcus Smart were like that Drew wasn't better than Marcus Smart?
45:17 Like Drew Holiday has always been essentially the same player as Marcus Smart, but a little bit better as a score and a little bit better as a shooter.
45:26 Well, you know, good amount better as a shooter and then like a slightly different style on defense, but still significantly impactful.
45:32 Like they're extremely they're like the two most similar players to each other out there.
45:37 And so they've gotten a pretty similar experience from Drew.
45:41 Drew also is like a risky guy, but it's not quite as risky as Marcus was.
45:45 He doesn't relish in doing the crazy stuff as much. He's a little bit more kind of like, you know, steady and patient.
45:53 And so, you know, I when they traded smart for Porzingis, yeah, I was like, this is the heart and soul getting traded away.
46:00 And he was the glue and the energy and the anger of the team needed.
46:06 And it's a team that's led by a bunch of guys who are just emotionally a little bit passive.
46:11 They're not feisty, angry, aggressive players.
46:14 That's not how they play. And you needed smart and, you know, and even Grant Williams, as many issues as he had, as much as Joe didn't want to play him, like they needed his aggression and confidence at times.
46:23 And so they were losing that and they got it back with Drew.
46:27 So, you know, if people knew when the Porzingis trade was happening, they were going to get Drew Holiday.
46:33 It already was a great trade, but it would have been like it would have looked at as the greatest trade in NBA history at that point.
46:38 It's one of them. And so they got exactly what they wanted and what they needed out of Drew.
46:42 And he stepped it up in the postseason. And, you know, I think the thing that's been really interesting about Drew is a lot of the criticism for making the deal for him was that when he gets to the postseason, he gets in over his depth and he struggles offensively.
46:55 And I remember saying at the time, well, yeah, because he was like the second option on the team and the first option couldn't shoot the ball.
47:01 So it's like that was like he was he's not going to be that guy in Boston. He's not going to have to do much on offense.
47:07 So with the Celtics, all he does is space the floor run in transition.
47:11 And then they've had him run a little bit of point guard lately and he's like good at it.
47:14 And everyone's shocked by it. Like, no, this is just this is what happens when you have a really good player being willing to take a downgrade in usage.
47:21 And then when you actually have to use him, he's only doing stuff that's like relatively easy for him.
47:25 So that's why he's been so good. And that's why all these guys are so good is because they don't really have to get stretched too thin.
47:33 You want to end this on a little bit of a lighter note here, Kaufman? Sure.
47:38 Do we all believe that Joe Mazzola's watched every finals game from now until 1990 or do you think he was lying about that?
47:44 Because that was an incredible story to come out with. Yeah, I've watched every finals game from last year to like early 90s.
47:51 And here's what everybody does to win. Now, I love that he came out and has been doing some research and talked about it.
47:57 I just thought that was pretty like pretty. It's a lot of it's a lot of basketball.
48:01 It's a lot of basketball. So what the hell say is right before he was asked about, I think J.S.
48:06 was a great question. He Joe mentioned to me while we were walking up there very randomly,
48:13 just mentioned like a single defensive decision that Charles Barkley made in the 93 finals.
48:17 And so it was really funny that he got asked about that and said that you like literally just kind of we were talking.
48:23 I talked like about some soccer thing with him and he brought that up. It's like, oh, that's what championships are made of.
48:26 It's those little decisions. It's so yeah. So he he definitely watched a lot of finals games.
48:32 That's for sure. No doubt about that. I love it. I love that guys knee deep in tape,
48:37 trying to figure out every edge you can possibly get and is looking through history to find it.
48:42 He's got a lot of time. I love it. See, I coffin.
48:46 You know, we're very pro Joe Mazzola podcast when he says stuff like that.
48:49 Like, how do you not love that guy? And you know what I mean? Like, come on.
48:51 I mean, put that on social media. You'll get a whole list of reasons why.
48:54 Why not? I love it. Don't want to get me started. So ultimately, I mean, look,
48:59 we're Evan, I are probably going to have another show even before the final start,
49:04 given this three-month layoff before the, you know,
49:07 we have to wake people up and remind them that basketball is still happening,
49:10 let alone the most important basketball of the year.
49:13 But it's why not get into prediction time a little bit?
49:17 I mean, I'm not look, we all believe this is going to be a challenging series.
49:21 We've said that. Do we also all believe that it's going to end in a parade in Boston?
49:27 Yeah. Yeah, I would pick Celtics in seven. I think six. I like it in six.
49:33 Yeah, I don't like it to go seven that that was stressed me out too much.
49:37 I'm not I'm not in favor of that. In fact,
49:39 I would probably leap into the worst-case scenario part of my brain if it goes seven.
49:44 So yeah, I think six I'm inclined to believe six just like him.
49:48 Although if we're talking about this from a gambling perspective folks,
49:52 I think it's worth a sprinkle if you're doing correct score worth a sprinkle
49:57 on you know Celtics and five Celtics and six both of them
50:01 and you know definitely hit that Celtics minus one and a half on the game spread to take care of it
50:06 and six or fewer and you can get that, you know, big plus money on the correct score.
50:10 But you know, the the minus one and a half you can get pretty close to even money.
50:15 I think minus 110. So yeah, I look I like it.
50:19 I don't want to get ahead of myself, even though I feel like we've been doing that for the entire season.
50:23 Definitely the entire postseason, but I guess now is the time to do it.
50:26 This is the round and it's it's going to be fun just eager for the games to start back up again
50:32 and you know good to see Chris Stams Porzingis back out there when he gets there
50:36 and just hopefully and I say this on both sides,
50:39 you know, like both you know, the series that we've had so far
50:42 and I know like it's the most important thing is the Celtics win bottom line,
50:48 you know, especially if you're fans of this podcast.
50:51 I know you agree, but we've seen no Jimmy Butler.
50:55 We've seen you know, a banged up and then absent Donovan Mitchell
51:00 and same story with Tyrese Halliburton.
51:02 I'm hoping everyone stays healthy on the Mavericks side.
51:05 Let's let's get a good hard-fought competitive series that everyone is present for that Boston comes out on top.
51:14 I think that would be a lot of fun nice way to take us into almost summer league.
51:18 Actually Jared's Jared's life really is not slowing down anytime soon,
51:22 but Jared wise from the athletic make sure he's got a big story dropping as well.
51:27 You know, probably depending on when you listen to this.
51:29 It might be minutes later, but it's dropping on Monday, correct?
51:34 Yes. All right. So make sure you check that out for that.
51:37 Yeah, keep an eye out on that get them on Twitter all that fun stuff rate review.
51:42 Most importantly subscribe to this podcast Celtics beat wherever you get your podcast for Jared for Evan.
51:47 I am Adam again in all likelihood. We'll be back with you before the finals even come around
51:52 on Thursday at the garden for game one, but Celtics Mavs, it's coming folks the NBA finals.
51:58 They're here.
52:01 [Music]