Dive into an engaging discussion as Shubha Mudgal, renowned artist and musician, shares insights about her debut book 'Looking For Miss Sargam'. Explore the enchanting world of Indian music, as Mudgal delves into the journey of writing this captivating book that explores the nuances and tales behind the melodies. Experience the magic of music through the lens of a celebrated artist and author.
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00:00 Being an artist and being a musician is not easy.
00:03 I guess in each era, there are different kinds of marketing strategies that people adopt.
00:09 Today everybody has to be on Instagram.
00:12 If you don't pick up, you know, put up pictures of yourself pouting, winking, screaming, shouting,
00:17 you know, you're not considered, you know, you get forgotten.
00:21 (Singing)
00:33 Hello everybody and welcome to this brand new episode of Outlook's Bibliophile.
00:44 Today I'm joined with a guest who is one of India's most famous and well-known singers of Hindustani classical music.
00:52 Please welcome Miss Shubha Mudkal here on the show.
00:55 Thank you so much for having me on the show.
00:57 Thank you ma'am for joining us.
00:58 So now ma'am has come up with this new book which is called Looking for Miss Sargam.
01:03 It's a book which is an anthology. It's a collection of short stories.
01:07 It's briefly, it's about, you know, what are the trials and tribulations that a singer or an artist in India faces.
01:14 It's a witty take on that.
01:16 It's a story of set in the world of Indian music.
01:20 And let us ask her about the book.
01:23 So ma'am, firstly, why writing? And why now?
01:28 Well, I've been writing about Indian music for a long time.
01:31 I used to have a column first in Hindi and then one in English for two leading publications.
01:38 And the idea was to share information about Hindustani music and about the world of Indian music in general, not only classical music.
01:46 Through various formats, in various ways, whether it was through a column or through a podcast.
01:52 But I then ended up writing one single story, which I hoped would be adapted for a theatrical production.
02:00 Oh, really?
02:01 For a musical theatrical production.
02:03 And that was the one single story that I wrote.
02:07 And I started working on the characters to basically give an idea of what kind of person we would like cast in that.
02:15 And that's how I came to write my first story.
02:18 The theatrical production never took place.
02:21 But in its stead came these seven stories in the form of Looking for Miss Sargam.
02:26 The book has received like rave reviews, very positive response. So did you expect that kind of a response?
02:32 Needless to say, I'm delighted, but I never thought that they would get such, the book would get such good reviews.
02:38 And I'm truly, truly grateful and also reassured because, you know, there's a very specific kind of storytelling.
02:47 And I wasn't really sure anybody would be interested in reading them.
02:50 And yet it was fun writing them. But I have to confess, once it went into publication, I was very nervous.
02:56 But now I think those nerves must be settled.
02:59 I'm feeling very, very reassured.
03:01 Very reassured. So like coming to the title, I mean, the title does what it is meant to do.
03:07 I mean, it is intriguing. And you might wonder, the reader picks up the book and tries to wonder, who is Miss Sargam?
03:12 Why are we looking for her? And probably reading this, we'll get to know.
03:16 But then, you know, you create this character and she just comes in fleetingly into the book and she just goes out like a snap.
03:26 So why did you create such a character like that? And what was, what does it add to your fiction?
03:31 You know, what I've observed, and I think most artists would agree, that artists are a very adaptable lot.
03:39 They change with changing times. They are able to adjust to different kinds of technology.
03:45 So, for example, earlier concerts would take place right through the night.
03:50 Then came recording technology in the form of 78 RPMs. And everybody had to record in three to five minutes.
03:56 But see how beautifully the artists of those days adapted to that.
04:01 And so I think, you know, this idea of the artist being a very adaptable creature who is able to strategize according to changing times,
04:12 I think that's what Miss Sargam represents. It just so happens that she's a lady, but she could very well have been Master Sargam as well.
04:20 And so it's not really about her being a Miss Sargam, but actually about being an artist who is able to reinvent herself again and again with changing times.
04:31 The other thing I wanted to ask was, like you said, this is the world you inhibit, the music industry. It's almost like your second home.
04:37 Yes, it is my home, my first home.
04:39 It is your home. But while I was reading the book, you did show the dark side of the music industry.
04:45 So, I mean, it's your debut novel. It's your first work. So why did you choose to do that?
04:50 I mean, why not give them, give your character the silver lining, probably?
04:54 They all have silver linings. Throughout each of the stories, it's the music that really sustains, nurtures each of the characters.
05:04 The love for music is what, you know, carries them forward. But yes, I would be telling a lie.
05:13 And I would not be telling the story in its complete, not be giving the complete picture if I were to paint an unnecessarily and unrealistically rosy picture.
05:25 Being an artist and being a musician is not easy. And even though you may meet very, very celebrated artists,
05:34 if a celebrated artist were to tell you about the humiliations, the challenges, the conflicts that they have undergone, you might actually not believe them.
05:45 Aapke saath aisa hua? Kaise ho sakta hai? You know, there's an almost unbelievable quality about it.
05:51 But actually this happens with every artist, almost every artist. I mean, not just exactly these stories, but the trials, the tribulations, the personal challenges,
06:02 the challenge of finding your own voice amongst so, so many very, very talented people.
06:09 All of that is very much a part of every single artist's story.
06:13 Yeah. So, was the attempt at writing was to give you an insider story of the music industry, like behind the scenes sort of a thing? Was that the objective?
06:24 No such missionary kind of objective was there. I just wanted to tell the stories. I wanted to tell the stories of what I've observed.
06:32 When I'm not on stage, when I'm learning, when I am teaching, when I'm traveling or when I'm waiting for a performance,
06:42 I'm actually in the green room observing all the chaos and drama that's going on.
06:47 You know, the people getting angry with each other, the ego clashes, everything.
06:53 And there I am just waiting for my turn to go on stage and, you know, present the music.
06:58 But I thought I just felt the need to share those moments.
07:03 But then these are all fictional stories, not drawn from real life.
07:07 No, but of course.
07:08 But it reads like life because most of your characters, you know, they have very,
07:14 the endings are not like poetically constructed or politically correct endings or something.
07:19 They are like life, you know, how it turns out for them. That's how, you know, unpredictable life is and that's how these characters are.
07:26 Yeah, that's how actually the lives of artists are.
07:29 So somebody who could have gotten, you know, the biggest awards and we see this all the time.
07:35 We have done so recently. A very, very famous composer who is very celebrated is today living all alone, facing trials and tribulations.
07:46 And I think these are stories. They sound real because there are so many artists who've gone through this.
07:53 So I think they are, they are really very closely observed situations which have then been woven into stories.
08:02 And another thing which I saw in your books was that like you have even dismantled a very sort of sacred relationships like the guru-shishya relationship or even things like, you know, the Padma Shri.
08:17 So what was that about? Could you tell us about that?
08:20 See, the guru-shishya relationship is of course a very, very special relationship.
08:29 There's no other relationship unless it's that with, let's say, a life partner.
08:35 You actually go and live in somebody else's home.
08:39 I mean, either you're adopted by foster parents or whatever, or you choose to live in with a partner or you marry somebody.
08:48 But otherwise you don't become part of anybody else's family.
08:51 So in the guru-shishya tradition, you do become part of the extended family.
08:56 And yet it's a position which is like, let's say, a relationship, parental, filial relationships also.
09:04 It's always fraught with a lot of tensions.
09:07 I was not being irreverent, but really pointing to the tensions that have always existed.
09:15 You know, silent obedience is not possible in a relationship like this.
09:22 And similarly, you know, I mean, in my story, the guru and shishya, the shishya is impatient because he's not getting the attention of the guru.
09:34 And he rebels. And so this happens all the time.
09:38 Another thing that was, as you mentioned, there are like celebrated artists, you know, who are living in penury at the moment.
09:44 They do not have the finances or the fame or recognition, which they enjoyed at one point of time.
09:49 And your book also deals with that.
09:51 You know, that how the first story, it talks about how, you know, you have to market yourself a lot.
10:00 So that becomes an important part in an artist's life.
10:03 I mean, despite having a lot of talent, if you are not sellable or marketable, probably, you might not get the attention which you deserve.
10:11 I guess in each era, there are different kinds of marketing strategies that people adopt.
10:17 Today, everybody has to be on Instagram.
10:20 If you don't pick up, you know, put up pictures of yourself pouting, winking, screaming, shouting, you know, you're not considered, you get forgotten.
10:29 And yet at the same time, artists have to deal with these new formats like social media.
10:37 I mean, not everybody can adapt to it.
10:41 And so either you have to take the position where you say, this is not for me.
10:44 I don't feel comfortable.
10:46 Or you are ready to be forgotten.
10:48 Or you are ready to say that, look, I'll speak through my music.
10:51 There are many artists who have chosen to be reclusive and have done very well.
10:57 But this is also part of being comfortable with who you are.
11:01 But then you have always been one of those, you know, to adapt with changing times.
11:06 And like even in your book, you talked about technology and how you have embraced and you yourself in your previous interviews have said that you embrace technology.
11:14 I love technology.
11:15 You love technology.
11:16 So is that a case with other artists as well?
11:19 Or you find yourself, you know, the only one, you know, who's doing that?
11:23 Like, for instance, one of your characters, you know, is using the iTanpura app to tune her Tanpuras.
11:29 Is that like a practice these days?
11:31 Absolutely. In fact, it's a convenience that has really assisted in some ways and has really done a lot of harm in other ways.
11:39 So, you know, developers and people who make applications have worked really hard to give us the closest sound possible to an acoustic Tanpura.
11:50 And they've really worked at it.
11:51 They deserve a lot of praise and admiration and respect for doing what they've done.
11:55 They've also made it convenient for a student to come into a class.
12:00 And it's very possible that you could spend over half an hour trying to tune a Tanpura and it won't work.
12:05 Oh, really?
12:06 So you could spend as much, you know, a lot of time tuning, retuning and still not be satisfied.
12:12 But that app makes it easier.
12:13 The app makes it convenient in today's rushed world where a student may be going to a guru at, let's say, 6.37 at night and learning and then going back late at night in an isolated area.
12:24 And so the convenience is certainly there.
12:28 At the same time, the idea of learning how to use your ear to tune an instrument and how to maintain an instrument.
12:36 If you are not going to use an acoustic instrument, you'll never learn that.
12:39 So, ma'am, when I say the word Chubha Mudkal, the word resonates with both the old as well as the young, you know, and across musical genres, like from classical, strictly classical to even fusion.
12:52 You represent a more inclusive form of Hindustani music.
12:56 Would you define yourself like that?
12:58 I would say that the music has always been inclusive.
13:01 The music has never left out anybody.
13:04 We have people in India who love music that is not from India.
13:08 And I think that's the part of the music, not of the person who's making the music.
13:12 First, it is the part of the music.
13:14 And certainly, people have contributed.
13:17 So I would really give the credit to the part of music rather than to any individual.
13:22 You have been one of the foremost singers who have actually contributed and supported independent acts.
13:29 Like, for instance, independent bands, underground music, probably, if I may say so.
13:34 But I do not see any other mainstream classical singer doing the same.
13:40 So I think you should be appreciated for creating your own brand of music, probably.
13:46 As a musician in today's world, I feel it's very difficult for me to say that I'm not going to listen to any other kind of music.
13:53 And I think it's the greatest compliment that an artist can give to another one, to say, "Come sing on my track."
13:59 I mean, why would any band want me to come and sing on their track?
14:04 They've asked me. Sometimes I've worked with people who are younger than my son.
14:08 And it's so wonderful to see that kind of description of music transcending age and gender and language.
14:20 I mean, it comes true.
14:21 Because there you are sitting with people, you say, "So what are you doing?"
14:25 And you find out that this young person is about five years younger than your son.
14:30 And there you are singing on a track as equals and as people who are doing different kinds of music.
14:36 I think it's quite wonderful.
14:37 See, when I'm singing with a band, I'm not singing classical music.
14:40 I am coming to that collaboration, bringing with me the accent of classical music.
14:46 It's like if I was, let's say, a Bengali or a Tamilian or a Maharashtrian or whatever,
14:52 I come, when I speak English, I speak English with an Indian accent.
14:57 And so wherever I speak, anywhere in the world, it will be like that.
15:00 And similarly, when I'm working with other musicians, the accent of classical music always pervades that.
15:07 So I'm not really performing classical music when I'm singing an Apke Sawan or a Seekhon Na Nainon Ki Bhaasha.
15:13 I'm not really singing classical music.
15:15 Talking about Bollywood music, you have done your share of, not many, but yeah, a few Bollywood songs.
15:21 So are there any more upcoming songs that you're going to do?
15:25 You know, I'm in a strange position regarding Bollywood music.
15:29 I really feel that that's a specialist area.
15:33 A specialist area?
15:35 Yeah, because it's basically the art of playback singing is something that is peculiar to Indian films.
15:42 And there have been the most fantastic and there are the most fantastic playback singers.
15:47 I think it requires a certain kind of training and orientation and a sensibility to be a playback singer.
15:54 I have not been trained in that way.
15:56 So when there's a film that requires something which is to do with classical music, then I get invited to sing.
16:05 Otherwise, I'm always called to sing these, you know, Jogan kind of songs or tragic Alaap laden passages
16:17 where there's something terrible happening and there's this heart-rending Alaap in the background.
16:21 So I think those are the situations in which, in its characteristically cliched way, classical music is used in Indian films.
16:32 And I enjoy those opportunities.
16:37 But I think I don't really have a place in that.
16:42 You have done your collaboration, like for instance, you've done shows like Diwaarists.
16:47 So you featured there. But Coke Studio, I believe you've never done.
16:54 No, I've not done.
16:55 So why has that been the case?
16:57 Maybe they didn't feel the need to invite me and I didn't feel the need to go and say, please invite me.
17:01 But you approve of that, of something like Coke Studio, right?
17:04 I mean, where you have people from, like folk singers coming up and performing, putting across music which is not discovered otherwise.
17:13 Let me say that I don't disapprove of any kind of music.
17:17 I feel music is made because you feel compelled to make it.
17:21 And any kind of music will find its listeners.
17:23 So I would not approve or disapprove of any kind of music.
17:27 I think it's wonderful that people are trying those experiments.
17:31 And that's fine if I'm invited.
17:33 And if I feel comfortable, I would be happy to participate.
17:36 Otherwise, I'm happy listening.
17:38 Would you enjoy that music?
17:40 Not all of it.
17:41 Not all of it?
17:42 Not all of it.
17:43 I can't say that every track on India's Coke Studio has been great.
17:50 Unfortunately not.
17:51 Not for me.
17:52 But never mind.
17:53 I mean, it's an experiment.
17:54 That's fine.
17:55 Thank you so much for joining us on the show, ma'am.
18:11 So that is all that we have today at Outlook's Bibliophile.
18:15 Go grab a copy of Looking for Miss Sargam.
18:17 That's it from my side.
18:18 Thank you.
18:19 [MUSIC PLAYING]
18:22 [MUSIC PLAYING]
18:25 (upbeat music)
18:28 (upbeat music)