The exploits of Bishan Bedi, Erapalli Prasanna, Bhagwat Chandrasekhar and Srinivas Venkataraghavan are well documented in various books but Anindya Dutta's attempt to vividly introduce the relatively unknown heroes of Indian spin in his book 'Wizards -- The Story of Indian Spin Bowling ' -- is laudable. The book will also evoke academic interest for it encapsulates the impact of the Indian caste system on cricket, a sport introduced by the British. A 'lower' caste Palwankar Baloo elevation as captain of the Hindu side in the famous Quadrangular tournament in 1920 was nothing short of dramatic.
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00:00 I think how cricket in general bridged the gap between the rich and the poor, I won't
00:06 say rich and the poor, between various castes and two nations which were being hit by partition.
00:14 So don't you think that cricket played a role to bridge the gaps?
00:18 Oh absolutely it did because the first Pakistan team had a number of players who had already
00:25 played for India, the captain had played, Amir Ilahi had played.
00:31 So first there was familiarity between the two teams.
00:36 I think the animosity between the two countries probably is beyond the partition, probably
00:42 came in a bit later and this was a time when there were some attempts at healing and cricket
00:47 was a very good vehicle to do that.
00:49 Hello and welcome to another edition of Outlook Bibiofy.
01:00 Here we review books, special books and very very special books.
01:04 Hello, I am Soumitra Bose and with me is Anindya Dutta.
01:09 He has just authored this book called The Wizards, the story of Indian spin bowling.
01:18 He has spoken about four generations of spin bowlers in India, starting from Balu to Kuldeep
01:26 Yadav and Yusuf Inder Chahar.
01:29 Welcome to the show Anindya.
01:30 Thank you, thank you for having me here.
01:32 And Wizards, the story of Indian spin bowling, why did you choose spinners?
01:39 Well, when I was a young boy in school, I was a nice chubby little boy who couldn't
01:48 bowl pace, so I started bowling spin.
01:52 But I was never good enough to be a spinner at any high level of the game, so I played
01:57 up to college and then corporate cricket a bit and then I became a cricket tragic.
02:04 I have been a banker for many years and a few years ago I realised that I am probably
02:12 better at writing than spinning.
02:15 So I decided to combine the two interests and try and write about the Indian spinners
02:22 and the whole generations of them who have not really been written on their contribution
02:28 to Indian cricket, it's not been properly recognised.
02:30 So this is my attempt at that.
02:33 Wizards the story of Indian spin bowling has been published by Westland Books.
02:39 This is Westland's first book, which one of your books that they have published.
02:45 That's right.
02:46 It's my first book with Westland.
02:47 This is Anindya's first book with Westland.
02:50 And this is not Anindya's first book, by the way.
02:54 This is his fourth book and all of them are in sport.
02:58 Just to go back, his last book was The Invincibles.
03:03 Yeah, it was The Invincibles.
03:05 So it was about the 1948 Australian team to England, the only team ever visiting England,
03:12 which remained undefeated over the course of the tour.
03:15 In fact, in this book, it also has anecdotes from India's first tour of Australia.
03:22 That's right.
03:23 India's first tour of England, India's first test match in India played at Mumbai Gymkhana,
03:30 if I'm not wrong, against Douglas Jardine's team.
03:34 And it is stuffed with information.
03:36 It is stuffed with information and it has been extremely well researched.
03:42 There are anecdotes and there are scorecards and many, many scorecards.
03:47 And it must have taken a lot of time for you to write this book.
03:51 It took, depending on how you look at it, it took between 18 and 24 months.
03:57 About half of that time went in research.
04:01 The other half went in writing and rewriting each chapter.
04:07 Because for me, it was important not only to tell the history of Indian spinners, but
04:11 also to tell their stories in a social context in which they operated.
04:18 So each of the chapters which talks about the spinners, some talk about multiple spinners,
04:23 some talk about one spinner, but each one of them tells their story.
04:28 So I hope it does not read like a history book.
04:31 It reads more like a series of narratives.
04:34 Well, on end of this book has four chapters or three and then you finish off with something
04:39 called the powerplay.
04:40 Four sections actually.
04:41 Four sections.
04:42 So could you just take us through these four sections?
04:46 Sure.
04:47 So, Indian spin journey, as I discovered, begins much before the first Test match which
04:54 people normally would take as the start of Indian cricket which is 1932.
05:00 Actually it starts from the end of the 19th century with the story of Palwankar Balu,
05:05 who was an untouchable, a chamar, and he played for the Hindus, which were, other than him,
05:13 presumably all other ten were Brahmins.
05:15 And this was a time when it was not common to find a mixed group of players in the Hindu
05:23 team.
05:24 He was the first Indian spinner, a left arm orthodox spinner.
05:30 He was so good that in England, the counties wanted to take him even before they had seen
05:36 him.
05:37 They had heard so much about him.
05:38 So it starts from there.
05:39 It goes on to the generations of pre-independence spinners.
05:45 And then it carries on, that first section carries on until before Pathaudi was responsible
05:52 for bringing the spin quartet in.
05:54 The second section deals with, first with Pathaudi.
05:59 Why did he get the quartet?
06:03 Why did India become known for its spin bowling?
06:07 So it talks about Bedi, Prasanna, Chandrashekhar, Venkat Raghavan, and how Pathaudi rebuilt
06:13 that team and then Wadekar carried it on.
06:16 And the third section then picks up from when the quartet retired, Dilip Doshi came in as
06:21 the first great spinner, if you like, of the modern age.
06:26 And then the book goes on all the way to the current set of players who are playing Test
06:34 Cricket, who are playing one day, who are playing T20.
06:37 So to Yusuf Inder Chahal, Kuldeep Yadav, and Washington Sundar.
06:42 Very interesting part of this is that there in this book, despite having the power of
06:48 spin, India lost Test matches at home.
06:52 It is exactly the contrary now, the way South Africa lost and are capitulated against Indian
06:58 spin.
06:59 Where do you think there's an imbalance?
07:02 I mean, do you think it is the nature of wickets or the quality of batsmanship which has at
07:07 least absolutely crashed because they just have no clue against playing spin?
07:14 It's an interesting point because it's probably a combination of things.
07:20 Can we say that the modern spinners are much better spinners than the older spinners?
07:25 I would hesitate to say that because you had, India's had some unbelievable spinning talent.
07:32 So I will really hesitate to say that the modern spinners are better than them.
07:35 But then they are getting the opposition out quicker.
07:40 Opposition are unable to play in India.
07:43 Despite the fact that not all the tracks are spinning tracks.
07:46 Like when South Africa came the last time, they were diabolical spinning tracks.
07:51 This time, they're really good pitches.
07:53 So if you look at the difference in both those series and you look at the result of both
07:57 the series are the same.
07:59 And you look at the difference in both those series, the difference is that we had much
08:01 better pitches.
08:03 So it has to be said that there is a mental issue with how batsmen are playing the game.
08:08 When they come to India, they come with the impression that they're not going to be able
08:13 to play spin and the battle is lost even before they arrive here.
08:18 So I think it's a combination of the pitches have definitely become better in India over
08:22 the last few years.
08:23 So it's a combination of good spin bowling.
08:26 We continue to have a good tradition of spin bowling.
08:28 But the quality of batsmanship because of limited overs cricket has definitely deteriorated.
08:33 Yes, absolutely.
08:34 I think it is definitely an impact of the limited overs cricket because where the batsman
08:40 mind is not tuned to play longer variety of cricket.
08:43 Yeah, it's not only the longer variety of cricket.
08:46 Batsmen basically just want runs quickly.
08:50 So they're not watching the bowler's hand, which is the reason why the biggest success
08:55 now in the shorter format is of wrist spinners.
08:59 Because if you don't watch the hand of a wrist spinner, you don't know what he's going to
09:02 bowl and you're going to get out faster.
09:04 So I think that's it.
09:06 Coming back to your book, I think when I was going through it, the most fascinating part
09:12 was of course of Balwankar Balu, the first chamar or the untouchable who went on to lead
09:19 the Hindu team, which is unthinkable at that point in time.
09:23 Of course, his brother also.
09:25 His brother was the first proper captain, but Balu was the first man who was allowed
09:31 to lead a Hindu team.
09:32 Yes.
09:33 In fact, the fact that, you know, this is a true rags to fame story.
09:37 I won't say riches.
09:38 There were no riches at that point in time.
09:39 So it's more rags to fame kind of story.
09:42 And he exploits as a left arm fast bowler.
09:45 And the fact that, you know, the British used him for net practice.
09:49 And that actually made him.
09:51 But I think the word that actually defines his skills is that practice.
09:55 He practiced it very well.
09:57 He had the skills.
09:58 He knew where to pitch the ball.
10:00 He knew how to flight the ball because you've defined all that in your book.
10:03 And it actually defines that it is your practice that makes you perfect.
10:09 But more than Balu, what really caught my attention was the name called Jamshedji.
10:14 Whenever we talk of Jamshedji, we think of steel.
10:17 But this Jamshedji was actually India's first official left arm fast bowler.
10:24 Could you tell us something more?
10:25 Yeah, sorry, left arm spinner.
10:27 Could you tell us something more about him?
10:30 Well, he was, as the few remaining Parsis will tell us, he's the beacon of Parsi cricket
10:37 because he was the first Parsi spinner to play.
10:42 He played his first test match well into his 40s.
10:47 He remains the oldest player to have ever debuted in test cricket.
10:53 And in the official test cricket statistics of India, he's definitely the first left arm
11:02 bowler because Balu didn't play test cricket.
11:04 So it's a fascinating character.
11:07 Unfortunately, for all these bowlers, the Second World War, the world wars generally,
11:13 but the Second World War specifically for Indian spinners was the reason for them not
11:16 to be able to play more.
11:18 Yes, in fact, Jamshedji is when I was doing something very striking that many players,
11:24 especially the spin bowlers, made their debuts at the age of 39, 40, 41.
11:30 So imagine what if this was the scenario today.
11:35 Many Indian players in that or closer to that are contemplating whether to leave the game
11:39 or continue to play the game.
11:42 But would they have got into this current Indian team?
11:48 I think it was the circumstances which prevented them from playing earlier.
11:53 I mean, a spinner peaks in his 30s anyway.
11:57 So spinners typically will play longer if they're playing well.
12:03 Would someone debut today at 39 or 40?
12:06 It's very unlikely.
12:09 So you don't have too many instances of someone debuting and doing very well at that age today.
12:16 Younger players are much more likely to play.
12:19 But because of the wars, they just didn't have the opportunity of playing test cricket.
12:24 So that's why they were probably debuting much later.
12:26 Can you tell our viewers, if there were three USPs in this book, what would they be?
12:35 The research.
12:38 You mean about writing the book, right?
12:40 The research behind it, because I had the responsibility of putting forth the stories
12:51 of every spinner who ever played for India.
12:54 So I believe I've done that.
12:56 It required a huge amount of effort.
12:59 I've also put in the stories of a number of spinners who did not make it for India, like
13:05 Padmakashivalkar, for example, who definitely deserved to be there.
13:10 Then there is the way the book is written.
13:15 As I said, I didn't want it to be a boring history book.
13:18 So the narrative is a storytelling narrative.
13:23 So if an Amish Tripathi can write a story based on mythology, there is no reason why
13:28 I can't tell a story based on facts of cricket.
13:32 And that's my philosophy of writing.
13:36 And third is that it brings to life stories which have been forgotten.
13:43 People who deserve much more than they have received in terms of acclaim.
13:48 I hope this book will at least remedy that to an extent.
13:52 I'm sure it will, because it tells the story of one Ameerullahi, the person who went to
13:58 England, never played a test match due to the idiosyncrasies of the captain perhaps.
14:03 And he did play for India and went on to play for Pakistan as well.
14:08 So this is probably the first cricketer in the world perhaps to play for two nations.
14:13 I think there might have been cricketers in the early 20th century who played for South
14:19 Africa and England.
14:23 But in the subcontinent for sure, I mean, Indian cricket.
14:26 Ameerullahi was the first one.
14:28 In fact, I want to not go into the cricketing aspect, I want to go to the sociological aspect
14:34 of this book that it contains.
14:36 I think how cricket in general bridged the gap between the rich and the poor, I won't
14:43 say rich and the poor, between various castes and two nations which were being hit by partition.
14:50 So don't you think that cricket played a role to bridge the gaps?
14:56 Actually it did because the first Pakistan team had a number of players who had already
15:01 played for India.
15:03 The captain had played, Ameerullahi had played.
15:07 So first there was familiarity between the two teams.
15:13 I think the animosity between the two countries probably is beyond the partition, probably
15:19 came in a bit later.
15:21 And this was a time when there were some attempts at healing and cricket was a very good vehicle
15:25 to do that.
15:27 So that first series which was played in India immediately after the Australian tour, that
15:36 was quite incredible because both teams were trying to win.
15:39 They were playing well.
15:40 But then there were bizarre things like India won a test match and then half the team, all
15:46 the major players were kept out of the team and they played on a matting wicket which
15:50 suited Faisal Mahmud and then Pakistan won their first match.
15:53 So where India took 20 years to win their first test match or a number of years, Pakistan
16:00 won their first test match within a couple of years of independence.
16:05 But then what happened after that was that I think this India Pakistan team kicked in
16:10 and each party didn't want to lose.
16:13 So if you look at the next few series of India Pakistan, they just wanted draws.
16:17 Nobody wanted to lose.
16:18 So I think that rivalry still continues.
16:21 And spin does play a role.
16:23 Spin continues to play.
16:24 Spin has always played a role.
16:25 Spin will continue to play a role in that.
16:27 But the foreword of this book is written by one Mr. Kapil Dev.
16:32 Why Mr. Kapil Dev?
16:34 Because Mr. Kapil Dev, beyond being a fast bowler, is one of the greatest cricketers
16:39 India has produced.
16:40 He's been a great captain.
16:41 He won the first World Cup.
16:43 And he has had a lot of spinners playing under him.
16:48 And he's a very good thinking captain.
16:50 So I found it fascinating when I spoke to him to interview him for the book about his
16:55 colleagues and about...
16:58 He was very, very clear in his mind about the role of a spinner in the team, how important
17:04 they are, because he used them a lot.
17:07 Indian spin has always been important.
17:09 His first series was with the Quartet.
17:12 And he came in and he was the first person who created, let's say, a genre of fast bowlers
17:18 which we see today, the fruits of that.
17:22 So he had a huge contribution in that.
17:24 And he gave me some very, very interesting insights into the spinners that he saw.
17:33 And he was very encouraging when I was writing this book.
17:36 So he's written a beautiful foreword for it.
17:39 You've written about Indian spin bowling.
17:41 You mentioned a lot of foreign spinners like Rishi Baino.
17:45 You ever think of writing one on the non-Indian spinning greats of the world?
17:50 Well, I think there's quite a bit written on...
17:54 Okay, let me say, put it like this.
17:56 How would you compare them?
17:57 I mean, you had people like Baino.
18:01 You had people of Lance Gibbs.
18:03 You had Derek Underwood.
18:04 Now you have these, our Indian wizards.
18:07 Now, if you were to compare them, how would you compare?
18:11 I think the people you mentioned were incredible bowlers in different ways.
18:17 So Rishi Baino was a great leg spinner.
18:21 Underwood was unplayable on bad tracks, especially when it had rained, it was drying pitches,
18:29 uncovered pitches.
18:30 He was unplayable.
18:31 I think he was a great bowler.
18:33 He underrated.
18:35 If you...
18:36 But, you know, I would actually go further.
18:39 If I would look at Shane Wan, was Shane Wan a better bowler or was Subhash Gupte a better
18:47 bowler?
18:49 This is something that I talk about in the book because the only man who actually compared
18:52 the two of them was Gary Sobers.
18:55 And Sobers had watched a lot of Shane Wan, you know, until Shane Wan retired.
19:00 And Sobers, I'll read you something.
19:03 In fact, something that Sobers said, and then he said about Subhash Gupte, Subhash Gupte
19:10 was a better leg spinner than Shane Wan.
19:13 He didn't play a lot of test cricket, but he took a lot of good wickets.
19:17 And he said he could do things I still do not believe all these years later.
19:21 I wish I could have seen Subhash Gupte.
19:24 Imagine what he must have been like if we think Shane Wan is a great bowler.
19:27 No, exactly.
19:28 Because that's the dilemma.
19:29 I mean, those years, I mean, before the war and after the war, how many test matches you
19:36 played?
19:37 In fact, the last World Cup, the spinners had a massive role to play.
19:43 And it's very topical that your book is because spinners have a role play in all three formats.
19:51 And we saw in the UK World Cup, where you know, the fact that Afghanistan, where people
19:57 were banking on players like Rashid and Nabi.
20:00 Indians, of course, we had our own star bowlers.
20:03 And that's the beauty of the game.
20:05 Because as you rightly said, that spin will continue and will continue to remain kicking
20:10 and alive as long as the game survives.
20:13 But the only thing is, maybe the quality of spinners we had in test cricket, we are not
20:18 getting them as much.
20:19 Maybe India, yeah, fine.
20:21 We have somebody called Ashwin who still bow, but the other nations are not producing the
20:26 same quality of spin.
20:28 Well, it's bound to happen, right?
20:30 Because if your spinners are coming from the shorter formats, they are used to bowling
20:35 four overs in the T20.
20:38 In those four overs, they can look at their jobs either as saving runs or getting wickets
20:44 in that time.
20:46 They had never had a time to settle down.
20:48 They never have time to plan their bowling spell.
20:53 And then what happens is, if they plan for those four overs, once they get to test cricket,
20:59 where they have to bowl 40 overs, they don't know what to do.
21:03 So it's a very difficult transition to make.
21:05 I'm happy that someone like Kuldeep is making that transition.
21:09 I think he will be the future of Indian spin bowling, just because he's able to make that
21:14 transition.
21:15 Will Chahal be able to do it?
21:18 Maybe.
21:19 But then first Chahal needs to be able to play for Haryana in first class cricket.
21:22 He's not even getting a chance to play.
21:23 So I think we need to really give a lot of time and effort into these spinners because
21:32 they're quality spinners, but they need to learn how to make that transition into other
21:35 formats because that's how they will survive and for the game.
21:39 Thank you very much, Anindu, for spending time with Outlook.
21:43 This book is a fascinating read, as I've always said.
21:46 400 plus pages.
21:47 480 pages.
21:48 480 pages.
21:49 And in this, every page has a story.
21:52 Every page has details of scorecards, which we never think of, especially when things
21:58 happened in the early 1900s.
22:01 People like Subhash Gupte, Palwan Karbalu, Jamshedji.
22:05 And they were fascinating.
22:06 As I said, every page is priceless.
22:10 And thank you for this wonderful production.
22:13 And I'm sure this will be a bestseller.
22:14 Thank you so much.
22:15 I appreciate it.
22:16 Thank you.
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