In an unprecedented display of air power and precision flying, the Air Force (IAF) on Friday carried out its much-anticipated "land and go" drill on a 3.5-km stretch of the Ganga Expressway in Uttar Pradesh’s Shahjahanpur district amid soaring tensions with neighbouring Pakistan in the wake of the Pahalgam terrorist attack.
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00:00Hello and welcome to an India Today special broadcast. I'm Gaurav Savant, our top focus story on India.
00:08First, developments that are taking place in India, including a major flex by the Indian Air Force.
00:15Also on the broadcast, why Pakistan is in panic, the global support for India.
00:22The statements that have been made by either the US Vice President J.D. Vance or Secretary of Defense Pete Exit, what do they mean and why are Pakistani political leaders from the Defense Minister Khwaja Asif to former Foreign Minister Bilawal Bhutto Zardari saying yes, they did support Tehra maybe 30 years ago, three decades ago, but saying they were doing the West's dirty work.
00:48Are they throwing the Pakistan Army under the bus? That's our top focus story.
01:00India's big air power flex.
01:10Air Force fighter jets roar.
01:12First, Rafale landing on Ganga e-way.
01:25Steel and strength in the skies.
01:32Air power display, a message to Pakistan.
01:36Decoding India's Air Aikraman.
01:42Top focus on India First.
01:48Steel and strength in the skies.
01:51In moments from now, Air Chief Marshal RKS Bhodoriya, former Chief of Air Staff, joins me on this India First special broadcast to decode India's air operations and what Pakistan is doing across.
02:04We'll also tell you what J.D. Vance, U.S. Vice President, said.
02:09He said in an interview that their hope is India responds to this terrorist attack in a way that doesn't lead to a broader regional conflict.
02:19So, perhaps it's clear even to the U.S. that India will respond.
02:23He then went on to say, frankly, we hope that Pakistan, to the extent they're responsible, cooperates with India to make sure that terrorists, sometimes operating in their territory, are hunted down and dealt with, clearly telling Pakistan that it needs to hunt down and deal with terrorists.
02:42We'll get you that story. Lots more coming up, including this Indian Air Force exercise with Rafals and Su-30 MKI's landing on the Ganga Expressway.
02:52I'm Gaurav Sawant. As always, let's get started with the headlines on India First.
02:58India plans twin financial strikes to choke Pakistan.
03:08India is likely to actively pursue getting Pakistan back on the Financial Action Task Force Gray List.
03:16IMF, World Bank and ADB to be engaged to cut funding to Pakistan.
03:20Pakistan's second big terror confession after Defense Minister Khwaja Asif, Bilawal Bhutto Zardari admits to his country's terror past.
03:40The first Iran war, the Pakistani state, the Pakistani dictatorship at the time, funded and supported and, you know, in every way possible, the Mujahideen to take on the Communists.
03:57Prime Minister Narendra Modi relaunches Andhra Capital, Amravati, NDA Partners and State Chief Minister.
04:03And every Chief Minister expressed solidarity with the Prime Minister after a Pahalgam attack.
04:08Tell the Prime Minister, we are with you.
04:17Prime Minister Narendra Modi taunts the Congress at the launch of the Kerala Deep Sea Port with Shashi Tharoor on stage.
04:26Prime Minister says the Congress MP's presence will give his party sleepless nights.
04:30Congress says the Prime Minister indulging in petty politics.
04:34Prime Minister Narendra Modi taunts the people's
04:58and ex-Bajrang Dal member hacked to death.
05:01BJP says Mangaluru is unsafe for Hindus.
05:18There's breaking news that's coming in
05:20from Pakistan-occupied Jammu and Kashmir.
05:22The tensions along the line of control
05:24have resulted in POJK administration
05:28ordering emergency measures to be undertaken
05:31in view of the tensions between Pakistan and India.
05:36The administration of Pakistan-occupied Jammu and Kashmir
05:39has ordered people living near the line of control
05:43to stockpile food and essential items.
05:47So, clearly, Pakistan anticipates.
05:50Remember what their information minister had said.
05:53He had expected an attack in 24 to 36 hours in POJK.
05:57People are being told to stock up residents,
06:00especially those living very close to the line of control,
06:03and especially in the opposite, the Kashmir Valley area,
06:07in and around Muzaffarabad.
06:08They are being told to stockpile food, medicines, and other essential items.
06:13And for a period of two months, they've been told,
06:16have enough food in your houses for two months.
06:19And this is a joke in itself.
06:21When people are unable to get their next meal in Pakistan-occupied Jammu and Kashmir,
06:25when they're unable to know whether they'll get aata or not,
06:30they are being told, they're being mocked in a way to get food for two months.
06:34Not just that, the entry of tourists in Pakistan-occupied Jammu-Kashmir,
06:40and especially the Neelam Valley area, opposite the Kishan Ganga on our side,
06:45they are being told that they need to either leave,
06:49and entry of tourists to that entire area is now being suspended.
06:55Madrasahs are being shut down for the next 10 days.
06:59Stockpile food for two months, but madrasahs being shut down for 10 days.
07:03Are these optics, or is Pakistan actually fearing that one of those madrasahs
07:09that are either being used as terror launchpads,
07:13or for keeping terrorists in Pakistan-occupied Jammu-Kashmir,
07:17they could be targeted either by artillery.
07:21And this is that big fear in Pakistan-occupied Jammu and Kashmir,
07:24that there could be an RT strike or a rocket attack.
07:28All along, if you notice, you can even see it when you're at the LC,
07:33across villages are either being cleared,
07:36people are being moved to safer areas, or being told to stockpile food.
07:40Not just that, there's an emergency response fund of 1 billion Pakistani rupees
07:46that's been established to support relief and preparedness.
07:50Airspace over parts of Karachi and Lahore to remain closed for 8 hours every day
07:56through the month of May.
07:59Airspace over Karachi and Lahore.
08:02So now, this action on airspace is not restricted just to POJK,
08:07but to Pakistan's Punjab province and to the Sindh province.
08:13So, Pakistan actually fears a widening of action against it.
08:25Of course, there are some in the security establishment
08:27who may echo Prime Minister Narendra Modi,
08:30who had in the past said,
08:32So, Pakistan, very clearly, the fear shows on in its actions.
08:39But what is the Indian Air Force doing?
08:40It's a mega show of strength
08:42and some bits of it will take place even as we speak.
08:46These are fighter jets.
08:48These are the modern Rafale air dominance fighters.
08:54Multi-role, omni-role fighter jets of the Indian Air Force.
08:58Remember, India didn't have these Rafales in 2019,
09:02but in 2025, India has all 36 Rafales are crystallized.
09:09And this is the first such test.
09:13What is this?
09:14Land and go drill.
09:15There's a 3.5 km stretch of the Ganga Expressway
09:19in the Shah Jahapur district of Uttar Pradesh
09:21that's specifically been prepared for such touch, land, go exercises.
09:29There's also a loop here.
09:30And I will explain why this is done.
09:32Right now, this is a piece of the highway that's specially strengthened.
09:373.5 km of the highway that's specially strengthened
09:40for the aircraft to touch, land and go.
09:43But in conflict, this particular strip can be used as an alternate runway.
09:48There is a loop that is also prepared.
09:52And that loop is for those aircraft either to refuel
09:55and there are refueling bousers that will be kept there
10:00and also to reload their weapons.
10:02So it's not just the Rafales.
10:03You also have the Su-30 MKI's, extremely potent fighter jets
10:08capable of taking up to 8 tons of weapons.
10:11The Rafales can take up to 9 tons of weapons.
10:14You also have the MiG-29's air superiority fighters
10:18and the Jaguar, the upgraded Jaguar, BPSA or the Deep Penetration Strike aircraft
10:25that are thundering the skies through the day
10:28and in just a little while from now, even at night.
10:32Night landing will also be tested here in a short while from now.
10:38Make no mistake about the timing of this exercise.
10:43This drill is meant to send across a very powerful message.
10:48It's a muscle flex.
10:49Remember, the Indian Navy is already carrying out another exercise.
10:53This is also in continuation with the Indian Air Force exercise Akramar
10:59where fighter pilots targeted both targets on ground and in mountains.
11:17I want to tell you a little more about these mean machines,
11:22these modern fighter jets of the Indian Air Force.
11:26You have the Rafales, that's the latest that the Indian Air Force has.
11:30You have the Su-30 MKI's.
11:32You also have the Jaguar Deep Penetration Strike aircraft.
11:35But I want to first talk to you about the Rafales.
11:39The best 4.5 generation, capable of taking more than 8 tons of payload.
11:45It has better target and tracking equipment.
11:49It can engage better.
11:50It has a much better range than the, about the 4th generation F-16s, Block 52 that Pakistan has.
11:58And also, of course, the JF-17 Thunders.
12:01Those JF-17 Thunders that Pakistan has now are armed with the PL-15 long-range air-to-air missiles.
12:09But India has better.
12:11Now, these aircraft have advanced avionics, their warfare system, the avionics warfare.
12:18They can jam Pakistani radars.
12:20They can jam the Pakistani missile threat.
12:22And they're armed with the BVRs, the Meteor Beyond Visual Range missiles.
12:28They outclass the AMRAMs, for example, that the F-16s have in Pakistan.
12:33But that's not all that they have.
12:35Let me also tell you a little more about the scalp missile.
12:38And all of this, all of this was missed in 2019 at the time of the Balakot airstrike.
12:451987 was when Indian Air Force had acquired the Miraj 2000 fighter jets.
12:50And the same Mirajs were used in 2019.
12:53But now, you have these Rafales with their scalp with a range of 500 kilometers.
13:00And they can hit a high-value target deep inside Pakistan.
13:05So, once you have your Rafales in the air with their air-to-air and air-to-ground missiles,
13:11no Pakistani package would dare to come close anywhere.
13:14But that's not all.
13:15You have the Rafales.
13:17Imagine when we talk about the C4, you know, command control, I-2 system, information, intelligence gathering, reconnaissance, surveillance.
13:28So, you have the Rafales and you have the Su-30 MKIs.
13:30And now, you have the Su-30 MKIs.
13:32And I want to tell you a little more about these Su-30 MKIs.
13:36Russian-made, extremely potent.
13:39They can outclass most Pakistani fighter jets.
13:42They are long-ranged.
13:44Again, that little nose that you see there, mid-air refueling.
13:48With their mid-air refueling, they can stay up.
13:50Once the pilot takes off, it's the pilot's endurance and not the aircraft endurance.
13:55They can stay up in the air for 11 hours and longer.
13:59And they've done so in exercises in India.
14:02They can take off from anywhere, bomb on the western flank, refuel mid-air.
14:08They can also be then deployed on the other flank should there be a requirement.
14:13That's the kind of potency these aircraft have.
14:16Very, very capable, not just for deep strikes.
14:19They carry advanced targeting ports to track a target without any radar emissions.
14:24So, that's, again, a very important aspect of this.
14:27Cannot be jammed.
14:29Again, it's like a huge beast in the sky can carry up to eight tons of weapons.
14:35Far more than most Pakistani aircraft.
14:37Then, of course, you have the more agile, the MiG-29, the air superiority fighters.
14:43They have an edge when you have a within visual range combat.
14:47They're designed for a quick scramble.
14:48So, you know, when the eye in the sky, your AVAX picks up something and you don't have
14:53your packages in the air, the MiG-29s can immediately be scrambled for point defense missions.
14:59They're also part of this exercise.
15:01They have improved detection, multiple target tracking, and, of course, resistant to jamming.
15:06You have the Jaguars, the deep penetration strike aircraft.
15:10As the name suggests, these Jaguars, extremely agile, fast, deep penetration.
15:16Guys, strike deep inside enemy territory, deliver the payload, and immediately come back
15:20before the enemy can be prepared or the adversary can be prepared.
15:23A lot is happening right now that's happening.
15:27And I want to quickly bring into this conversation
15:29former Chief of Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal Bhadoria, who joins us on this special show.
15:36Precision exercises by the Rafals, by the Su-30 MKIs, and also, of course, by the transport
15:50fleet of the Indian Air Force.
15:52Joining me on this India Today special broadcast is Air Chief Marshal Rakesh Kumar Singh Bhadoria,
15:59former Chief of Air Staff.
16:00Sir, welcome on India Today.
16:02How are you?
16:03All well.
16:04Sir, in 2025, are we better prepared as an Air Force compared to 2019 when Indian Air Force
16:12did a balakot and punished Pakistani terror?
16:16Oh, certainly.
16:16We are very, very much better prepared.
16:19If you look at the kind of assets that have been inducted post that time, Rafals have come
16:24in, S-400s have got operationalized.
16:26We have modernized our aircraft further.
16:28We have inducted new weapon systems.
16:30We have inducted new surface-to-air missiles.
16:32So, whole lot of changes, whole lot of changes in training operationally, capability-wise, availability
16:39of weapons and overall operational capability, so to say, much, much higher.
16:44And is that the reason why many say that there is panic in Pakistan and especially in Pakistan-occupied
16:51Kashmir, the kind of exercises Pakistan is carrying out, you know, the Fizai Badra exercise
16:58or Lalkare moment exercise, how would you assess their exercises and preparedness?
17:02Yes, I think the panic is because they know what has happened and who are the people who
17:08are complicit in this.
17:09And therefore, the panic that something after what our Prime Minister has clearly indicated,
17:14they know something is going to happen.
17:16And therefore, the element of panic realizing, one, they are the culprits.
17:21Second, something would happen.
17:23And thirdly, our operational capability, which is much better.
17:26And they know our operational capability.
17:28Of course, they know our operational capability, they know our intent, and that should worry
17:31them.
17:32So, when the Prime Minister said there will be unimaginable punishment for terrorists and
17:39their backers, now, what is the message that he is giving to the chief of air staff, the
17:44chief of army staff and the chief of naval staff?
17:47Oh, clear message is that whatever they do, it must turn out to be unimaginable punishment
17:52for the terrorists and their backers.
17:54Help us imagine what is unimaginable.
17:57Unimaginable, you see, some actions non-military have already been taken on the Indus water,
18:03on the diplomatic measures taken.
18:05Now, we have to strangle each element.
18:10That means we have to strangulate them economically.
18:13We have to strangle their terrorist networks.
18:15We have to strangle their military and ISI kind of support to their ideology, their philosophy,
18:20why they do this kind of thing.
18:23How it is to be done will be in a very, very decisive manner.
18:28Unimaginable means firstly, you know, identify who are the people, who are the backers, who
18:34are the handlers, who are the planners and supporters, who gave direction.
18:38And thereafter, ensure that the action taken is decisive and clear.
18:42And overall, you know, level of action, the magnitude will be much higher than before.
18:48So, I think that is the broad way I look at it.
18:51So, in the past, what we have already seen is, when they did a pulwama, you did a, the Indian
18:58Air Force did a balakot.
19:00And multiple aircraft, Miraj 2000s, they went across the L.C. and bombed across the international
19:05border.
19:06But the narrative war, we were not on top that time because they said, fine, they came, but
19:11they killed some crows, destroyed some trees.
19:14How do you, are you also wargaming or is the Indian Air Force also wargaming that how do
19:18you stay on top of that narrative war this time?
19:21You know, a narrative, they would always try to spin in their own way.
19:25And they have the entire media under them.
19:28They have the entire machinery under them.
19:30I'm talking of Pakistan Army.
19:33But when they say only a crow was killed, they didn't take any, you know, journalists there
19:39for the next 40, 45 days.
19:41They didn't expose that place to anybody.
19:43Earliest they went was, after 45 days, I think a small team, a very calibrated visit, a
19:47very short visit to some of the places.
19:49So, so they can say what they want.
19:51We know what was done.
19:52We know what was destroyed.
19:54You can see what happened after, in the aftermath, what happened in the last five years.
19:58They stayed away from it.
20:00Now, now they have, you know, done this crime based on their internal strife and, you know,
20:05the kind of situation they are facing and the kind of peace that was coming up in JNK.
20:10So, so these are, I think, the reasons why they have reactivated their, you know, ideology
20:16and philosophy again.
20:17What do you make of the statements that have been made by leaders like Khwaja Asif, who
20:23is a sitting defense minister and on an international platform in the United Kingdom, he says, yes,
20:29we did it and we've been doing it for 30 years.
20:32We've been doing the dirty work of the West in the past 30 years.
20:36And just now you have Bilawal Bhutto Zardari, former foreign minister saying, yes, we did it
20:41in the past, but now we've reformed.
20:43What do you make of these statements?
20:45I think very clearly, it firstly establishes that they have a complete network with these
20:50terrorists, you know, they have a complete setup, they deal with them, they are part of their
20:56philosophy, their ideology.
20:58And they've always done this.
21:00They do something at that time, they say, no, we are not involved, our forces are not
21:03involved.
21:04It is not from Pakistan state, these are non-state actors.
21:08And sometime later, they will say, no, actually, Kargil happened.
21:11Sure.
21:12They said, our defense forces are not involved at all.
21:15Later on, President Musharraf himself goes around and saying, no, we did this, it was
21:20a strategic choice, it was something that we planned and did.
21:23They always do this.
21:2426-11, they said they were not involved.
21:25Later on, you know, complete involvement came out.
21:28Similarly, for everything.
21:29Now, today, they are saying that they are not behind this.
21:31A couple of years later, somebody will come up and say, no, actually, this was our, you
21:35know, strategy and it gave us this, this, this, this, X, Y, Z objectives.
21:39So, this is how they deal, this is what they do.
21:43They speak with a forked tongue.
21:44Absolutely.
21:45Is their appreciation.
21:46They lie through the, you know, this.
21:48Through their teeth, yeah.
21:48Absolutely.
21:49And the world needs to see this.
21:51Yeah.
21:52Over and over again, this has been proven.
21:54And the world needs to know, and the world has noticed, undoubtedly.
21:57But the fact that two powerful senior political leaders are saying this, and one after the
22:03other, are they trying to distance the civilian leadership from, and in a way, are they throwing
22:10General Aasem Munir, the army chief, under the bus?
22:13Are they throwing the ISI under the bus?
22:15If you ask that way, I think so.
22:19I think so.
22:19Because what has happened now with this killing of 26 innocent absolute civilians except one, and, you
22:27know, they have brought religion to the front.
22:29They identified as Hindus in short.
22:32They themselves clearly understand ISI is involved.
22:36They clearly understand the army is behind them.
22:38And you see the speech by, you know, army chief just before this.
22:45So, what you mentioned that they are kind of distancing politically from this, I think
22:52is very much possible.
22:53I think that's part of the reason.
22:54Otherwise, they have no reason to say this.
22:56Yeah.
22:56Why are they bringing out now that we are doing the dirty job of the West?
23:00Yeah.
23:00If you are doing and you are not happy, you need to tell the West.
23:03You don't have to give that as an explanation when something is happening in Jammu and Kashmir,
23:08which is perpetrated by you.
23:09Also, the developments that are taking place in Pakistan, how do you see them in the past
23:1348 to 72 hours?
23:14For example, DGISI, a serving Lieutenant General Asim Malik, being appointed as the National
23:20Security Advisor of Pakistan.
23:24There are, how would you assess this?
23:27Is Pakistan Army now completely taking control of power in Pakistan?
23:32No role for Foreign Minister or Deputy Prime Minister Ishagdar.
23:35No role for Khwaja Asif.
23:37It's either Asim Munir or Asim Malik.
23:41Absolutely.
23:41I think there's a very clear sign that whatever is left in terms of some control, if there
23:46was somebody else in there, that's a very critical post.
23:49That is very critical for their narrative on the world stage.
23:53And they want to control that.
23:54It's a very serious development.
23:56And again, world over, the people who interact, they need to see this.
24:01So, they cannot sell this narrative anymore that they are not involved.
24:04And ISI, DG himself acting as an NSA and interacting with the world leaders to sort of interact on
24:11this issue and convey their innocence.
24:13I don't think anybody would listen to them.
24:16So, while they do this, I think they are axing their own foot.
24:18Oh, so, interesting.
24:21Is the civilian leadership in Pakistan and, you know, you've studied Pakistan very closely
24:27as an adversary, as an air power.
24:30But let's talk about as an adversary.
24:32First, I'll come to air power in just a moment.
24:34Is the civilian leadership and civil society in a position or are they trying to fight back
24:39and say whatever terror is there is done by Pakistan Army and ISI, not us?
24:44Or will this then become, you know, because it's India, everybody is together, even if
24:50it means killing innocent civilians, then they all become, you know, it's some way waging
24:57that gazwa a hind against India and every Muslim is on board there in Pakistan.
25:01I think it is a mixture of all.
25:04Very clearly, Pakistan was struggling.
25:07Economically, they are in a bad shape.
25:08Militarily, they are in a bad shape in terms of equipment, in terms of how they want to progress.
25:16The military control on spheres which are civilian in nature is not being liked by the people.
25:23It's not being liked by the politicians there.
25:25And that is only growing.
25:27So, there is a, and not to forget what is happening in Balochistan.
25:32So, they are, you know, struggling with their internal disagreements, their internal strifes,
25:40their internal, you know, fault lines very badly.
25:44One of the reasons why this has come about is because of why Army and ISI would have given
25:50their support or green light for this kind of thing is, these are the background reasons.
25:54Okay.
25:54And of course, the other major reason is that they couldn't stand the peace coming up in DNK.
25:59When you look at the Pakistan Air Force compared to 2019, are they also not much better prepared
26:05in 2025 with their JF-17 Thunders, with their PL-15 long-range missiles.
26:10Now, they have long-range air-to-air missiles with their RAD-1s and RAD-2s.
26:14They have those cruise missiles that can hit 300 kilometers away.
26:17So, aren't we vulnerable?
26:19No, they have inducted some more weapons like we have inducted, but we have inducted much more.
26:26The aircraft that you talked about were there earlier too, but they have a new missile.
26:30We have missiles of capability that are better, that are better integrated.
26:34Rafal has a better overall integration and a superior missile.
26:39In terms of other weapons, if you take, in terms of strike weapons, we are much better
26:45in terms of what we have done over the last couple of years.
26:48So, we need not worry.
26:49It is something that they have improved, but what we need to do, we will end up doing.
26:54Okay.
26:55And when Pakistan Air Force…
26:56And similar is the state.
26:57You are asking about Air Force, but I would say similar is the state on the Army front and
27:00the Navy front.
27:01Okay.
27:01So, our defense forces overall today are in a much better position than they were earlier.
27:08And don't forget it.
27:09Equipment is not everything.
27:11It is the intent and it is what we need to do.
27:13When we decide, we will do it.
27:15But, you know, is it like Balakot was seen as a one-all.
27:20You know, we went and hit Balakot.
27:23They were surprised.
27:24But next day, they mounted swift retort.
27:26And even though Vinko Abhinandan went across that whether he shot down an F-16 or not,
27:32we say yes.
27:33Pakistanis say no.
27:35They claim it was…
27:37They managed to get that, you know, equivalence.
27:40This time, are we in a position to tell them and would that mean massive escalation that
27:45we are on top of that escalation ladder and there is no equivalence with that terror state.
27:49No.
27:50If you compare, firstly, Balakot wasn't one-all.
27:53It is their narrative.
27:54It wasn't so.
27:55Okay.
27:56In absolute peacetime, we have hit a terrorist, you know, camp so deep in their territory.
28:03It is the first time that we have crossed after 71.
28:07That itself changed the game.
28:10So, it was not one-all at all.
28:11That is the primary objective that we had.
28:14We achieved it.
28:15The next day, they launched a mission.
28:18If it was one-all, it's fine.
28:21Okay.
28:21It will always happen like that.
28:22But that was not the primary issue.
28:24Objective.
28:25Issue was what we wanted to do, we did.
28:28Okay.
28:28Now, today, if we have to do something similar, we are in a much better position.
28:34Whatever targets get identified for whichever defense forces, however they finally decide.
28:39It is for the, you know, you are aware that it has been left for the forces to look at
28:43targets and decide the timing and the kind of target and what to do, what mode.
28:49And I'm sure the results you will see is much better.
28:51No, but what makes more sense, how does one deter Pakistan?
28:54So, after 2019 Balakot, we haven't had a terror attack in the rest of the country.
28:59We've had it in JNK, but not in Mumbai and Delhi and rest of the country.
29:03But I want to understand from you, what do you need to hit as the armed forces of India,
29:09as a much superior armed forces, as you insist, and as we know, that Pakistan doesn't even
29:15dare to spread terror in Jammu and Kashmir.
29:17Military targets, non-military targets, take out a Hafiz Said or a Masood Azhar or take out
29:23their Mil-Jihad complex.
29:24And what does that mean in action on ground?
29:26You know, I will not go into what kind of targets and what will forces actually do because
29:31it is, you know, a very calibrated exercise, it is well thought out, it will, firstly, everything
29:37will get identified, tracked, located and thereafter chosen, okay.
29:42But the directions are very clear.
29:44You know, get the perpetrators here, accomplices, the handlers, the backers, okay.
29:51So, they will identify all these people and all this establishment behind and thereafter
29:58they will be targeted.
29:59What is best to do, we don't have all the inputs, I will not hazard a guess.
30:04And it is, you can be rest assured what defense forces will decide finally and do after clearance
30:11by the political leadership would be of the nature of what directions have been given.
30:17So, it's completely hypothetical, the fact that the Americans were able to send in their
30:23Marines and take out Osama bin Laden.
30:27Of course, they came in from the other side and the Pakistanis said they don't have their
30:30radars on the AFPAC border, all their radars face India.
30:35Will we ever be in a position that we can take out a Hafiz Said or a Masood Azhar or a Daw
30:40Ibrahim in any way in Pakistan, other than a missile strike or a namaloom of Raad as the
30:47Pakistanis put it?
30:48Yeah.
30:49If that becomes the intent that this has to be done, then it will be done.
30:53It can be done.
30:54Whether it needs to be done, whether that is what will be the intention or one of the action
30:59points, it is, you know, people who are dealing with it and when they all have all the inputs.
31:05But your question is, what I will answer is, if that needs to be done, it can be done, it will be done.
31:12Outstanding, sir.
31:13How would you see Pakistan shifting half its F-16 fleet away from the India-Pakistan border
31:21and tucking it away in Gwadar?
31:24Some see it as fear.
31:26Do you see it as fear?
31:27Do you see it as tactics?
31:28The F-16s is something and that block 52s is what they're completely shifting out.
31:33Yeah, no, it will be part of their operational deployment, looking at the threat that they see
31:40and the possibilities that they are imagining that we do.
31:44So, a lot of it would have to do with where they want to deploy.
31:49And of course, one of the major factors of this deployment is also to ensure their own safety.
31:55Should it happen?
31:56So, it is fear?
31:57Yeah, yeah.
31:58It is fear from that angle, but they will always do it in terms of operational deployment.
32:04The important issue is that we have only said that we are going to target the terrorist network
32:10and everything is behind.
32:11Their whole army and air force and everybody is responding.
32:14Okay.
32:15Two things.
32:16One, they are aware and they can sense that we will do something that would be substantial.
32:25Okay.
32:26Second, they probably are under the impression because of them being complicit in it, they know what ISI does
32:33and what, you know, army chief said and how militaries got involved directly in this.
32:40And therefore, whether this time some military targets would be legitimate as part of this change
32:48that gets identified is to be seen.
32:50Oh, very interesting.
32:51But they would imagine, they would imagine that this could be one of the things.
32:55So, they need to stay awake at night now.
32:58They need to stay awake.
33:00Pakistan, they need to stay awake at night.
33:03But is there an apprehension that while we are focusing on Pakistan punishing Pakistan state-sponsored
33:10radical Islamist terror, the radical Islamist in Bangladesh could give us some grief?
33:15Is that one of your, you know, areas where you would be concerned?
33:20How would you see the response or lack of it of China in such a situation?
33:24No, China would be wary, firstly.
33:26They also heart of heart know what Pakistan does, what they have done and how their establishment,
33:34the military establishment, the ISI, the terror network, the LET network is responsible.
33:41Okay.
33:42Okay.
33:43China would not openly say it for reasons of their links and historically what has happened
33:48in the last couple of decades.
33:50But what level of support they will get from China?
33:53I think militarily they would get support from China.
33:57That is what we have to presume.
33:59On the Bangladesh side, what you mentioned, our agencies and our establishment is well aware
34:05and they can contain it well.
34:07I don't think there is any issue to worry.
34:09Fair enough.
34:10You are extremely confident and you have headed the Indian Air Force.
34:13You have been a part of it for over four decades.
34:15for joining me here on this India first special broadcast, Air Chief Marshal Paduria.
34:20Many thanks, sir.
34:24And it's a second admission in 48 hours by a top Pakistani political leader of Pakistan
34:37having supported terror in the past.
34:39Remember, first, it was Pakistan's defense minister Khwaja Asif who went on camera to say
34:44Pakistan supported terror, but insisted that Pakistan was doing the dirty work of the West
34:50for three decades.
34:51Now, former Pakistani foreign minister and Pakistan People's Party leader Bilawal Bhutto Zardari
34:58has made the same confession that it's a known fact Pakistan supported terror, but he insists it's a thing of the past.
35:06The big question is not just the statement, but also the timing and the intent.
35:11Is the Pakistani political leadership distancing itself from the activities of Pakistan Army and ISI?
35:20The Pakistan State funded and supported the Mujahideen to take on the communists.
35:26We have been doing this dirty work for the United States for about three decades, you know.
35:30The Pahlgham terror attack was orchestrated, ordered by the Pakistani Army Chief General Asim Munir.
35:39Pakistan is now openly revealing what it has denied for years, admitting the country's role in supporting terrorism.
35:47And this admission is coming from none other than former Foreign Minister Bilawal Bhutto,
35:53who pointed to Islamabad's active role in funding and supporting the Mujahideen during the first Afghan war.
36:00In the first Afghan war, the Pakistani state and the Pakistani dictatorship
36:06funded and supported in every way possible the Mujahideen to take on the communists in Afghanistan.
36:16We did that in coordination and collaboration with Western powers.
36:23Just days ago, a video clip of Pakistan's Defence Minister Khwaja Asif went viral,
36:28where he too admitted that Pakistan had backed terror.
36:32You do admit, sir, that Pakistan has had a long history of backing and supporting and training
36:38and funding these terrorist organisations?
36:41Well, we have been doing this dirty work for the United States for about three decades, you know.
36:48And West, including Britain.
36:53So that's your argument that...
36:56No, that was a mistake and we suffered for that.
36:59Not just Pakistani politicians.
37:02Earlier, a former Pakistani army officer dropped a bombshell.
37:06In an explosive interview with India Today, Major Adil Raja alleged that the Pehalgaam terror attack
37:12was orchestrated on the direct orders of Pakistan's Army Chief General Aasim Munir.
37:17I would stand by my information, which has been provided to me by my sources in the Pakistani intelligence community,
37:27who claim that the Pehalgaam terror attack was orchestrated, ordered by the Pakistani Army Chief General Aasim Munir for his own personal interest.
37:39That is what I still, you know, I still say the same thing.
37:45From political leaders to army insiders, Pakistan's own voices are blowing the lid off its deep-rooted terror nexus.
37:54With Shivani Sharma, Bureau Report, India Today.
37:57But the devil lies in the detail.
38:03Pakistan confesses to terror in Afghanistan or supporting Mujahideen in Afghanistan,
38:09saying we were doing West's dirty work.
38:11Pakistan never confesses to spreading terror in India.
38:15But let's try and make sense of these developments that are taking place.
38:17Joining me on this India Today special broadcast is Ambassador Vivek Karju,
38:21former Secretary in the Ministry of External Affairs and Ambassador to Afghanistan,
38:25and Sushant Sareen, Senior Fellow at the Observer Research Foundation.
38:28Ambassador Karju, your appreciation of the statement of Khwaja Asif and Bilawal Bhutto Zardari,
38:35why are they saying this now?
38:37Are they trying to get the West to say,
38:39we're doing your dirty work so you support us now?
38:42Or are they throwing the Pakistan Army under the bus?
38:44No, I think no Pakistani politician can afford to throw the Army under the bus.
38:50They are creatures of the Army and if they ever dare to cross the Army,
38:55the Army will throw them under the bus, as the Army has done to political leaders in the past.
39:01That's one.
39:03But second is, I think your concluding comment in your opening remarks was very perceptive.
39:08When you said that the Pakistanis have said that they were doing the West quote-unquote dirty work in Afghanistan.
39:19They have never said anything about, except in some private conversations,
39:26Pakistani senior army officers say that at one stage, yes, they were promoting low, what they say low is, was low intensity warfare in Kashmir.
39:38But otherwise, publicly, they have never admitted to promoting or sponsoring terrorism in JNK and that is what we are interested in.
39:51So, I think the distinction that you drew, Gaurav, is very significant.
39:56And I also feel that our analysts, and I'm sure Sushant will agree with me, that our analysts must be very accurate when they analyze or look at things that the Pakistani leadership is saying.
40:15Now, this doesn't mean, and that's my last point at this stage, that this doesn't mean that Pakistan is not involved in Kashmir.
40:24They've been involved in promoting terror in Kashmir in a calibrated manner over the last 35 years.
40:33And this is a fact. No one can deny it. It is now, as I've often said, part of their security doctrine.
40:43In fact, on track two processes, I've told Pakistani retired officers, their diplomats, that look, it's now part of your doctrine.
40:53And once anything becomes part of a doctrine, it's not easy to remove.
40:59They do this because they think there's a disparity between their conventional force levels and ours and that their conventional force levels are low.
41:10And therefore, they must keep India on the defensive. They also do this for economic reasons.
41:16After all, if they tie up a certain number of our soldiery in JNK, then they think that economically they are gaining an advantage.
41:29Whereas the fact is that over the last 35 years, when they promoted terror, they have literally reduced themselves to populace.
41:40They have gone to the AMA 24 times.
41:44You know, the country has been reduced to being a pauper. The country has been reduced to being a pauper.
41:48But the generals have minted money. Their former army chief, one of them bought an island.
41:53Others have big mansions in London and in Dubai.
41:56Sushant Sareen, there are two developments that have taken place in Pakistan.
42:00These statements and the appointment of DGISI, General Asim Malik, as Pakistan's national security advisor.
42:06So, not even a facade of civilian leadership anymore. A serving three-star general becomes NSA.
42:13What would this mean for Prime Minister Shabazz Sharif and Foreign Minister and Deputy Prime Minister Shagdar?
42:20I don't know why we keep talking about peons like Shabazz Sharif and, you know, clerks like Khwaja Asif.
42:31These people are worth nothing. They are like used toilet paper. They really don't add up to anything.
42:37Do you think even a captain in the Pakistan army listens to what Khwaja Asif says?
42:41Well, he's a travesty, okay? Or that clown Ishant Dar who thinks he should have been a Nobel Prize winning economist.
42:49He doesn't know the first thing about economics. Or even Shabazz Sharif who will keep wagging his finger and acting strangely in front of cameras trying to behave like he's some kind of a revolutionary when he's anything but that.
43:00So, forget about these civilians. They don't matter. And I find it shocking when people speculate that Shabazz Sharif has made this fellow the NSA because he's trying to get a counter to Asim Munir.
43:13That's utter nonsense. The simple fact of the matter is that the Pakistanis need to engage with the rest of the world. They don't trust the civilians. The army has to do it. If you have an ISI chief as an intelligence guy going and interacting with people say from the United States, the UK or many other countries in the world, it's not protocol wise and many other reasons.
43:38It's not the, it does not make for any good optics. But if you have that same guy wearing the hat of an NSA, then it becomes so much easier that because he has then a civilian facade like Pakistan has a civilian facade of a government while everything is being done by the military.
43:55It's just that. It has nothing to do with some back channel opening up with India. It has nothing to do with anything else. It's purely optics for the rest of the world.
44:04Okay. So they're tricking the rest of the world. The rest of the world and Ambassador Karju countries like India have seen through Pakistan. What would you, you know, make of General Asim Munir appointing General Asim Malik?
44:17You know, even that fig leaf of civilian leadership or a hybrid regime, has that been removed? Why would the serving DG ISI have to be appointed as the national security advisor at a time of a standoff with India?
44:32What is the signal that ASEAN Munir is sending out?
44:35Look, I entirely agree with Shushant that the civilians do not matter, especially when it comes to the security apparatus of Pakistan. That is a given.
44:47Now, the question that I'm asking myself is that why do they have to to appoint a serving ISI chief as the NSA?
45:01A serving ISI chief has a very, very time-consuming, if nothing else, portfolio.
45:12He won't have much time left to devote to the NSA's functions.
45:20So the NSA's job was vacant since, if I read correctly, I think since 2020, sometime in 2022.
45:30So either it is not an important thing and they've given this to him because they need someone to interact with other NSA's.
45:39But at the same time, if they were prudent, they would appoint a retired army officer whom ASEAN Munir could trust.
45:51Trust like in the past, like in the past. Obviously, at this stage, ASEAN Munir trusts only the serving DGISI to interact with the West.
46:08Therefore, he has taken what I can only say is an extraordinary step because if you look at the world, I think you will hardly find an instance when a serving intelligence chief is also an NSA.
46:27For example, in America, do you have the head of the head of the CIA as the NSA? No. Do you have it in India? No.
46:37So, therefore, while I do not believe that ASEAN Munir does not have a full and firm control over the army,
46:47he, at this crunch time, wants someone who will do entirely his bidding, even if he knows that some eyebrows would be raised,
46:58that he could have appointed a former army officer instead of the serving ISI chief.
47:05Because this puts a serving ISI chief in some embarrassment. Because normally, there is a distance between an NSA and the head of the country, of any country's premier intelligence agency.
47:21You know, because the point, as you very rightly point out, which means he doesn't trust either the political leadership, ASEAN Munir, the army chief,
47:29or even retired generals, because he may fear they'll do a deal behind his back or they may be close to Imran Khan.
47:37And as Sushant, many in Pakistan say, both Imran Khan and ASEAN Munir cannot survive in Pakistan together.
47:43One of them will either have to die or leave the country.
47:47But analysts in Pakistan are also very concerned about the statement of US Vice President J.D. Vance.
47:52He said, and I quote him here,
47:53Our hope here is that India responds to this terrorist attack in a way that it does not lead to a broader regional conflict.
48:03Now, does this indicate that US is on board, that India will respond to Pakistan state terror?
48:10Their only hope is it doesn't lead to a massive escalation.
48:13Some analysts in Pakistan are very worried.
48:15Nobody is telling India not to target Pakistan, not to hit terror in Pakistan.
48:20So, Gaurav, before I come to your point, let me just add something on this NSA question.
48:28Look, I suspect Ambassador Karjo is talking about a normal country where an NSA's job is different from the normal, you know, the military or the intelligence agencies.
48:39And he is a one-point advice to the Prime Minister who is the boss in the country.
48:44In Pakistan, the Prime Minister, like I said, is a chapadasi.
48:47Okay, he has, even a chapadasi who is what, maybe a grade 7 or grade 8 employee is more empowered than the Prime Minister in Pakistan.
48:57So, the NSA out there, my own sense is that he is an interface.
49:01Now, he is not going to make any new policy.
49:03He is not going to come up with any new ideas.
49:05He is only going to flog and become the interface of the ideas which the national security establishment, which is the Pakistan army, has already decided.
49:14So, I don't think two roles.
49:17On the J.D. Vance issue, my own sense is that, look, the Americans have already washed their hands of all conflicts around the world.
49:24When the Americans get out of Ukraine and saying that we don't have a dog in this fight, you guys settle it among yourselves unless you want us to come.
49:32I don't think they are going to get involved in what is happening between India and Pakistan in that sense.
49:37Maybe, yes, the Americans, and you very correctly say, that they might feel that, look, as long as you can manage this at a certain level, it's fine.
49:47Go ahead.
49:48Just make sure that it does not, you know, go beyond a certain point of whatever action-reaction cycle you are planning or you are contemplating does not go beyond the fight.
49:57I don't think we should expect any other country in the world to be standing with us on our back.
50:04I don't think that's possible.
50:06If we are trying to drink our own Kool-Aid because he is India's son-in-law or because of some, you know, reasons which we keep flogging around the world, please perish the thought.
50:17We have to fight on our own, on the basis of our own strengths and capabilities.
50:25Forget that the Americans or anybody else is going to come to our assistance.
50:29So, I don't think…
50:30Absolutely.
50:31No, I agree with you entirely, Ambassador.
50:34Kaju, is that also your assessment?
50:35Because when JD Vance goes on to say, and I quote,
50:37We hope, frankly, that Pakistan, to the extent that they are responsible, cooperates with India to make sure that terrorists sometimes operating in their territory are hunted down and dealt with.
50:49Is he, if you were, because diplomats read between the lines, beyond the obvious, what's JD Vance telling Pakistan?
50:56Look, I think what JD Vance is saying is from a prepared script, American script, everyone is using his own terminology.
51:12I agree with Sushant that the NSA is not the advisor of the Pakistan Prime Minister.
51:24If the Prime Minister in security matters, it doesn't matter.
51:28But purely for the purposes of optics, it is important to have an NSA who is not the chief when he is interacting with foreign interlocutors.
51:40From my own diplomatic experience, I can tell you that there is greater comfort in NSAs dealing with other NSAs who are not intelligence chiefs.
51:51But let's keep that aside, that's not too important in this juncture.
51:57I entirely agree with Sushant that in this fight, we are on our own.
52:03We've always been on our own.
52:05Oh, absolutely.
52:05Now, the point I'd like to submit is that there is what I would by now call a Modi doctrine.
52:15What is that doctrine?
52:17That doctrine is that if there is an unacceptable terrorist attack against India,
52:24India will resort to all actions necessary, including kinetic action.
52:30I will let that be the last word on this part of the show.
52:34I've run out of time today, sir.
52:35I'll come back to you for more as we pursue this in the days ahead.
52:39Many thanks for joining me.
52:40I also want our viewers, I want to leave you with these images.
52:43India is hosting the World Audio, Visual and Entertainment Summit in Mumbai.
52:48And top Indian celebrities, digital creators and social media innovators are part of this initiative.
52:54The India Today group is also a key participant at the first of its kind summit in India.
53:01India Today group awarded digital innovators at the WAVE Summit.
53:06The awards were handed out by top leaders of the entertainment industry.
53:11We leave you with some highlights.
53:18We leave you with some highlights.