In this episode of #TheFutureIsFemale Melisa Idris speaks with Puteri Sofia Amirnuddin, Acting Head of Innovation and Learning Experience for Taylor's Digital, at Taylor's University. A law lecturer-turned-digital education strategist, her signature work includes creating LAWleyPop, a gamified platform that allows law students to practice answering legal problem questions interactively. In 2020 it was shortlisted as the Top 12% of innovators around the globe and in theTop 5 in the Learning Assessment category for the Wharton-QS Reimagine Education Awards, known as the “Oscars of Education”.
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00:00Hello and good evening. I'm Melissa Idris. Welcome to The Future is Female. This is the
00:16show where we find the extraordinary in every woman. I'm delighted to introduce my guest today,
00:21Putri Sophia Aminuddin, who is Acting Head of Innovation and Learning Experience for
00:26Taylors Digital at Taylors University. She is a law lecturer turned digital education strategist
00:33and her signature work includes creating Lollipop, which is a gamified platform that
00:40allows students to practice answering legal problems or legal questions interactively.
00:47In 2020, it was shortlisted as the top 12% of innovators around the globe and in the top five
00:55of the Learning Assessment category for the Wharton QS Reimagined Educations Award, which
01:00is essentially the Oscars of Education. I'm delighted to have her on the show. Sophia, welcome.
01:07Hello, thank you so much, Melissa.
01:08What an accomplishment you've had in your career. I'm curious to know how it all started, the
01:14journey that you've been on, because you've worked at this really interesting intersection
01:19of law, education and now digital strategy. So when you think about all the separate sectors
01:27you've worked in, what's the connecting through line of your career? How would you describe your
01:33journey?
01:34I would say for anyone who read law, they of course aspire to become a lawyer. The moment
01:39they have graduated, I think parents also would like to see their children who studied law to
01:44become a lawyer. So 12 years ago, I was at a cross path, reflecting on the journey, what
01:52I want to be ahead in the future. And at that point in time, I had this thought, I would
01:58like to change on how legal education is being delivered. So I told myself I'm going to probably
02:04spend two years, but that two years now have become 12 years in order to make change.
02:10Well, time flies when you're having fun.
02:12Correct, correct. Exactly, exactly. So that's where I embark into the academia because of my passion
02:19to change how legal education is being delivered. So I've witnessed the transition in terms of
02:26education, learners, they were evolving using digital tools. Now we can see how it's integrated
02:33into our daily lives.
02:34Okay, if I may ask you to, I guess, describe your work. To someone who's not in academia, not in tech,
02:42what exactly is it that you do? What problem are you trying to solve? When you say that you're
02:47trying to change the way legal education is delivered, what was not working before and what
02:52were you hoping to achieve?
02:54For me back then, because I was teaching law modules, I realised the way that law modules reflects about
03:00the same on how it was being delivered about 100 years ago.
03:03Oh my gosh, it hasn't changed in decades.
03:05Yes, it's about students need to memorise the legal provisions, the cases. So I want to make
03:10the law to become more enriching, more intriguing, more interactive. So I experimented a lot using
03:18digital technology, digital tools. Some situation I failed. So I get feedback from students how I can
03:25improve further. So the success stories are able to share. So other women in academia able to resonate
03:32and not afraid to experiment as well.
03:36Wow. How do the tools actually deepen legal understanding if I may ask you? Why don't you
03:43tell us about Lollipop and maybe use that as an example about how it's help or its role in
03:49legal education?
03:50So Lollipop was born out of pandemic when students are confined their spaces at home.
03:56Okay.
03:56So I had to reimagine how legal education is to be delivered. So with limited resources,
04:02I had a chat with lecturers from other schools, whether we can collaborate using their expertise
04:08to develop mobile app. So I'll provide the ideas and content. So that's how it was designed
04:15and curated. So we integrate the use of narrative case studies, interactive quizzes. So students
04:22being at home, when they learn using Lollipop, it stimulate their creative thinking, they become
04:28enthusiastic and also it boost retention when it comes to learning and then engaging on the
04:33activities on the mobile phone.
04:35So how does it do that actually? How does it improve from the current way people or students
04:43read and memorize kind of rote learning?
04:46Correct.
04:46Explain to me how, so it's gamification, is it, does it use AR, augmented reality?
04:53Correct.
04:54It does. Okay. So how does integrating augmented reality and gamification into legal education,
05:01how does that actually improve students' understanding of the law? Is it just about
05:05motivation or is there something deeper about the way we learn?
05:08So when it comes to learning, it's not all about reading from a book or articles and then just
05:14memorizing it.
05:15The way we used to be taught, right?
05:17So I want students to be more active in terms of taking in charge of how they learn. So by using
05:24mobile app, so first of all, they will become intrigued in terms of, wow, this is learning law
05:30through a mobile app and then you have all this gamified interactive learning. So it sparks
05:36the competition in the students. I want to perform better than my classmates. I want to be
05:41more creative than my classmates. I want to show to Ms. Sophia, I'm creative enough to compete
05:47with my lecturer. If my lecturer can create a mobile app, I can also do something different
05:52when it comes to producing written work for their submission. So these are the things that I
05:59reflect on how I would like to re-deliver the content and also reshape how assessment is
06:05being done.
06:05That's interesting. Were there skeptics in the beginning who weren't sure whether it would work?
06:11Of course, I wouldn't deny that. So when I speak to people outside academia or even within
06:18academia, so the concept of learning through mobile phone, gamification, so to them it sounds
06:25more like a gimmick. So they're not sure whether or not this would work. So of course, I use data. I get
06:30feedback from the students. I'll compare the result from past semester to the current semester.
06:35So that's how I can see the result, the effectiveness of it.
06:39Was there a significant improvement?
06:41Yes, yes, definitely. So that's how I ended up with the project being shortlisted in the QS 410
06:47Reimagined. That is quite curious. So I would like to ask you what you think
06:53are the most common misconceptions about digital learning. I think that there are some people,
06:58many could be generational, who think that this is not the way I was taught. So I struggle to think
07:04about a younger generation learning differently. In your role as a digital education strategist,
07:11have you, what's your kind of most common feedback? And you think, well, this is a huge
07:16misconception I need to correct. That online learning is easier than the conventional learning that takes
07:23place on campus. So that's a big means conception. So I believe the role from the education, the
07:29lecture is to advocate that no learning online does not mean it's easier because we follow the regulatory
07:36bodies, the proper requirements. So in terms of the assessment is designed, it is to tackle,
07:41to address the module learning outcome, program learning outcomes, program educational objectives.
07:47So it is done meticulously and very structured to ensure that when we produce graduates who embark
07:53on this online learning, they are as with the quality graduates learning on campus.
07:58You know, you talked about kind of rethinking assessment and I'm curious to know,
08:02what does meaningful engagement look like in digital or online education, right? How do you know that
08:09it's working beyond the improved test results? How do we assess whether it's working?
08:15So when we develop the assessment, of course, the assessment will need to be validated by another
08:21expert to ensure that whatever that the students are doing based on a particular module is reflecting
08:27of what the module learning outcome and what the industry wants. So from there, the students will
08:33prepare their assessment, submit it, grade it, and it will also be endorsed at the board of examiners and
08:38also presented at the external parties to re-look at the assessment, gauge the effectiveness.
08:45We also consult the industry panels from the industry, from the workforce. Also, we'll see
08:50this type of innovation actually works tally with what the industry are currently doing. So that's how we
08:56assess the effectiveness of all types of assessment or innovation that we do.
09:00That's amazing. That's really stringent assessment to make sure that whatever naysayers or skeptics
09:07along the way, you have proof, you have evidence, you have data to back it up. Your years in this
09:14line of work, what have you seen as the biggest shifts in the way students learn, especially in higher
09:21education? Has it changed a lot or what are the biggest shifts you've seen?
09:25So there is a fundamental shift in terms of how content is being designed, how the learners learn,
09:32especially now in times of AI, knowledge is no longer scarce. Everyone can google
09:38everything. Nowadays, everyone is using chat GPT. Yeah, generative AI is in seconds.
09:43Correct, correct. Only to have like a conversation to ask any type of question.
09:47So we have to now rethink on how we want to redesign the curriculum. We have to curate it,
09:53personalize it to make sure that it fits with the demands of the current learners. And learners now,
09:59they are more demanding. They want something that is more personalized. They want something more that is
10:04flexible. Something that they can learn at their own pace, at their own time. Especially when we're
10:10talking about adult learners. They are working professionals. They are juggling multiple roles.
10:15Some of them single parents, caretakers, some embark on entrepreneurship. But at the end of the day,
10:22they still embrace the spirit of lifelong learning. Despite all of this role, I still want to learn.
10:28So that's how we need to shift in terms of the mindset that learners are no longer passive
10:35recipient of knowledge. That they bring experience. They bring their own thoughts, the way that they
10:41thinking into the classroom. Fantastic. Do you think that the pace of change in Malaysian
10:48higher education is matching the needs, the evolving needs, the changing needs of no longer passive learning?
10:55I can see that education industry in Malaysia, especially at the higher
11:00tertiary level, they are making effort to keep abreast with all of these changes.
11:05You can see lecturers publication using a lot of innovative teaching and learning.
11:11I attend conferences, meet up with other academics from other universities. So they showcase their
11:17project as well. So they are trying. So it's just that it requires time because as the role of academic,
11:23they do quite a lot of things. The workload is significant. There's multiple things they need to do.
11:30But when we think about how quickly things need to change to adapt, are there institutional challenges
11:39when you try to innovate within academia? Academia has this reputation of being quite slow to change.
11:48To be honest with you, institutional inertia is real. It is because the academic has a deep rooted
11:57structure and also tradition in order to ensure that the university operates following the compliance,
12:03following policies, the program standards. So in order to embark on this innovation, first you need to address
12:11the educational leaders who are risk adverse. I want to invest this much of money, but at the same time,
12:18I need this much of money to invest into something else. So it needs time, it needs trust to shift the
12:26perception and also it requires a lot of collaboration, research, understanding and support in order to drive innovation further.
12:33What's your thinking when you adopt, you experiment with tools, different tools like kimification and AR?
12:44What's your thought process when you are trying to decide whether a new tool actually adds value to learning?
12:53Because sometimes I think there's a danger of assuming that every problem, even educational problems, have a tech fix.
13:01So we tend to very quickly jump into kind of tech-driven solutionism, if I may use that term.
13:09But how do you decide what's working, what's not? You mentioned in the beginning when you were developing
13:13lollipop, there were some things that worked and some things that didn't. So how do you make that judgment?
13:17That's a valid question. I've received a lot of questions like that because people are skeptical. How is it going to work
13:24if I'm going to subscribe to this type of technology? It's not cheap, will it?
13:28How do you assess the effectiveness? The thing is, in order to assess the effectiveness,
13:35you have to try it. So you have to experiment it, maybe apply it across a couple of modules,
13:42get student feedback because you need data in order to improve further to determine whether or not it's successful,
13:49which field, which faculty, which school. So from there, that's where you channel your resources,
13:55which technology tool that you want to invest further.
13:57Right. Does it work in particular fields of study, like with law? Because it's so text heavy,
14:05there's just so much you need to remember that maybe gamification helps with the learning process.
14:11Does it work for other fields of study? Yes, because I also give talks to other lecturers to inspire them
14:19to try to innovate in their classroom. So whatever that I've tested in my law modules,
14:26so I'll also share it with the business lecturer, economics lecturer, lecturers teaching medicine.
14:31Yeah. So they will also try to adopt and emulate gamified experiences so that not only it's meant to boost
14:38students' enthusiasm and retention, it also changed the way that students learn is no longer memorizing
14:44for the purposes of, you know, sitting for the exam, but they want to bring that skill,
14:49that knowledge into the real world as well.
14:51I think it could revolutionize the way medicine's being taught. It could really change the landscape
14:58of higher education. And your role in this is really quite wonderful. When you think about how far
15:06you've come in the time that you've been in this space, what have you seen in terms of leadership or
15:14examples in tech academia spaces? Have you seen a lot of examples for representation of women,
15:22for gender equality? What does leadership for women look like in this space?
15:27To me, when you're talking about tech leadership, especially when it comes to women, they are women
15:33that specializing in technology. So we also have a lot of academics trying to integrate technology into
15:39their learning as well. So this is where a community is very important for women to share their experiences,
15:48struggles to inspire other women who's in academia to impact also in terms of technology. Not only that,
15:56probably to hold a position in the leadership like you mentioned.
15:59Yeah. Can I ask you a personal question? You may not have to answer, but have you ever felt underestimated
16:07in this space just for your gender, for your age? Have you ever felt that way? I mean, the skeptics made
16:14you feel underestimated? To tell you the truth, when I transition from law academics into the position
16:23that where I am today, I have experienced a perception where my thoughts or ideas are being undervalued
16:31because they're probably thinking it's, it's academic background. So how do you understand the legal
16:36jargons, legal terminology? But it's all about learning process. It does not mean I cannot learn.
16:42So, but I also realized my legal and teaching background is actually an asset. So I can anticipate
16:48tough questions, anticipate risks. I can also advocate for the voices of my colleagues who are academic,
16:54support team, students. So this is how we make a change and I empower others to be both women in
17:02academic to break barriers. Yeah. And also lead innovation in their field. Definitely. What is
17:07exciting you most right now about the field of digital education? Your face just lit up. I love that. I
17:15would say the rise of artificial intelligence. It can, it is making a big difference in terms of how
17:22educators are teaching. It sparks ideas that nowadays when lecturers design their content, they need to
17:30treat learners as co-curators of the program as well. So by balancing what lecturers want to deliver,
17:38what student actually needs, bearing in mind that nowadays they can use ChatGPT incorporating the
17:44assessment. Why not we use generative AI as a tool where students can work together, where generative AI
17:52work as a learning companion. They can study together in order to improve their learning experiences.
17:58What does that look like in practice, Sophia? So nowadays we are also experimenting a lot in terms of
18:04using ChatGPT, how we're going to integrate in the online learning platform. So it can serve as a channel
18:10like a 24-hour platform for student to ask any type of question, requires any assistance regarding a module.
18:19So it supports students learning, especially when I oversee the online postgraduate programs. So learners
18:27learn at their own time, sometimes at 2am in the morning, they have questions so they can ask all of
18:33these AI tools to support with their learning. How does that impact assessment of students learning? I mean,
18:40I asked this question earlier before, but this is a real issue that many higher education bodies are
18:47struggling with, right? Because of the quick nature, the pace of change has been so remarkably quick
18:54that universities are struggling to understand how do we assess the traditional ways of assessment just
19:02don't work anymore when ChatGPT is in play. Correct, because we have a lot of skeptics when it comes to
19:07online programs, whether or not it works because students can use ChatGPT to produce answers. But again,
19:15we have to rethink on how we're going to deliver this content. Rethink in terms of how we shape the
19:21assessment. It's no longer textbook-based. Lecturers need to craft assessment questions that really spark
19:27their thinking, where they know they cannot copy from textbooks. They cannot use ChatGPT because it
19:33requires a lot of analytical thinking based on the specific case studies. So on top of that,
19:39all students' assessment, we will validate it. So I have a team who will take all students' work,
19:45upload on a platform to check across the similarity index to ensure that it is original thoughts of
19:51the students, original work produced by the students, that there is no indication of the use of generative AI.
19:57So the entire system or the entire structure will need to change in the way we've been doing things.
20:03Can I ask you when, if you could redesign the university learning experience to incorporate
20:12all that you've learned in the past years of your work, what would it look like?
20:16I would say... Like if you could redesign from scratch.
20:21Correct, correct. So now with the increased use of generative AI and generative AI, it's learning
20:27really fast. So when we're talking about curriculum structure, you need to be revamped. So you need to
20:33look at a macro level, what does the industry wants, and then how you're going to translate it into the
20:40program objective. And from there, you need to narrow cascade it down to the module level basis, talk to all
20:45lectures, how you're going to change the type of assessment from final examination. So how you can
20:52integrate technology, make it different. But of course, you need to consult with stakeholders from
20:56the industry, whether this is something that the industry can accept, whether it's relatable to what
21:02the industry are currently doing. So a lot of stakeholders' meetings would be needed to ensure that whenever
21:10we do everything at this macro level, that it will work.
21:14Well, that's... But that's, I think, key, right, to addressing the skills mismatch that we often
21:19talk about within industry, getting industry involved to maybe rethink the curriculum and then embed
21:26technology within it. What would you like in the couple of minutes that we have left, what would you
21:31like the next generation of Putri Sophia's to know, the next generation of women in education and tech
21:38to know about this field and why it's important to have representation and women here?
21:43I feel because women hold multiple roles. So sometimes when they want to embark into something
21:50new, especially something that involves technology that continuously evolve, they feel like
21:56very intimidated whether they are capable of doing this. So my message is to those academic who wants to
22:04embrace technology or embrace the leadership roles in technology is that your place is here,
22:10you belong here. Don't be afraid to go beyond outside the norm. Don't be afraid to change the outdated
22:17narratives, what you cannot do in education, what you're supposed to do. It's all about experimenting,
22:24introduce new ideas, and then share with other academics so that other academics will feel inspired
22:30and not feel unheard and skeptics. I cannot do this because no one else has done it. Just do it.
22:36Yeah. Actually, people's bravery often sparks the bravery of others. You see somebody else brave enough to
22:44to voice a thought or a new idea, you also then feel, oh, maybe I also have an opportunity to voice it.
22:51You don't feel alone. So you feel that you have a community, you have a support system,
22:56you know that if you feel that you want to try, you can consult others and then seek advice. If I do
23:01this, what do I need to anticipate? What are the students going to experience? So it's good to have
23:06this kind of support community, academic supporting other academics. I am also very excited now about
23:12what the future has in store for us in the fields of digital education. Thank you so much Sophia for
23:17coming and sharing some of your work and your insights. I really appreciate your time. Thank you.
23:22Thank you. That's all we have for you on this episode of The Futures Female. I'm Melissa Idris,
23:27signing off for the evening. Thank you so much for watching. Good night.