Srinagar-based journalist and writer Zafar Choudhary speaks with Mayank Chhaya on the Pahalgam terror attack and its implications | SAM Conversation
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00:00The costly terrorist attack on tourists in Kashmir's picturesque Baisaran Valley in
00:14the Pahlgham area that took 26 lives on April 22nd has dealt a body blow to India's continuing
00:21efforts to bring the state bordering Pakistan into the national mainstream.
00:26The killings by two or three gunmen likely with Pakistani links appeared to have been
00:30carried out to cause great many deaths and gave the impression that they were designed
00:35to predominantly target Hindus.
00:38They also brought under sharp focus a peculiar imbalance between the Jammu and Kashmir government
00:43of Chief Minister Omar Abdullah and the Indian government of Prime Minister Narendra Modi
00:48in the specific context of the obligations of law and order as well as security.
00:54Those functions are under the control of New Delhi even while Chief Minister Abdullah has
00:59to deal with the political fallout of the killings as an elected leader of the state.
01:04To get a perspective from the ground, MCR spoke to the well-known Srinagar-based journalist
01:09and writer Zafar Chowdhury.
01:13Welcome to Mayang Chowdhury reports, Zafar.
01:15It's always a great pleasure to have you.
01:16I wish it was under better circumstances.
01:21Yeah, sometimes we have to catch up in very unpleasant circumstances, but thank you very much
01:27for having me on the show.
01:29I want to begin with where Omar Abdullah as Chief Minister and as the head of the government feature
01:35in this dynamic between Delhi and Srinagar, especially in the context of the Pelgam attack.
01:42So, unfortunately, I think very strongly about Omar Abdullah.
01:47He is somebody in a very tight spot, in a very peculiar, very complex kind of situation.
01:57So, well, as he is an elected leader, he is the Chief Minister, he has got votes, he has
02:02got mandate.
02:03So, he presides over the cabinet, but he is not in charge of the security in any manner.
02:11So, he does not, the intelligence apparatus does not report to him.
02:15So, he does not get to understand what is happening on the ground.
02:17So, yeah, law and order, public order, security is not with him.
02:23But then political pressure, political accountability, people will not easily understand that how is
02:28it possible that the Chief Minister is not responsible, he is not accountable particularly
02:33for an incident of security of the kind of scale that has happened yesterday in Kashmir.
02:39I am not extremely well versed with the intricacies of the Indian constitution, but is there any way
02:47where the central government can make an exception in a case like this, involve him in intelligence
02:54and other briefings?
02:55So, it is a very peculiar case with Jammu and Kashmir because the way the constitution of India runs
03:03in a federal scheme of things for the rest of the country, like you have the union government
03:08and the central intelligence agencies report to the home minister and then there are governments
03:12in the state where the state police authorities and the intelligence apparatus, they report
03:17to the local chief minister.
03:19That does not happen in case of Jammu and Kashmir.
03:22That does not mean that the Indian constitution excludes Jammu and Kashmir, but the constitutional changes
03:27which happened in 2019 upon approgation of Article 370.
03:32So, Jammu and Kashmir is run under an apparatus that's called as the Reorganisation Act of 2019.
03:40So, the Reorganisation Act reduces Jammu and Kashmir to a union territory that has a legislature,
03:47but then it defines that public order, security shall be a domain of the Lieutenant Governor who reports
03:53to the Home Minister of India.
03:54So, Chief Minister is excluded from that.
03:56Now, you mentioned accountability. In Abdullah's case, it is accountability without the power
04:04to do anything about it.
04:04That's right. That's right.
04:05So, in terms of public perception that, you know, you know the Indian political culture,
04:10you go to people, you ask them for votes and then people expect you to deliver on all fronts.
04:17It's not that people will want you to build the streets and put on the street lights and send them
04:23on the tapped water and they do not want you to be responsible for their security and for the
04:28protection and the human rights. They would want you to deliver on all the fronts the sum total of
04:33the governance in itself.
04:35You know, conversely for the Home Minister, Amit Shah, it's somewhat reverse.
04:41He has the power to do what should have been done.
04:46Well, this is a very interesting case, a very peculiar case in context of India.
04:52It's not just Kashmir. It's anywhere in the country when an incident of terrorism happens.
04:57So, you have to find accountability somewhere else. You have to find enemies somewhere else.
05:02You have to fix accountability somewhere else. So, the Home Minister or the Prime Minister does not
05:07come directly under the question of accountability. So, at least in case of Kashmir. So, I haven't seen
05:13very many people questioning the government of India. So, primarily it has to be questioned that,
05:18you know, where did the people come from? And obviously, all of us have to understand that they
05:22have come from Pakistan. And then we have to find out that were there some local people who were
05:27providing them some kind of support, some kind of aid, some kind of cover. So, that is what terrorists
05:34conveniently want. They will come, they will do an action, then they will leave that to us to find
05:40out who do we think that who is going to be responsible for this. Right. You know, coming to
05:45the specific ghastly attack in Pahlgam. Pahlgam has been part of pretty severe security ring for a very
05:53long time, for decades. That's right. That's right. How is it that two or three gunmen so cavalierly
06:00could do what they did and with such specific targeting?
06:06So, this question is very, very genuine, very vital. So, everyone is asking. I've been,
06:11you know, hearing this question, very innocent question from the members of my family. My
06:16daughter has been asking that, you know, how is it possible there were thousands of people at a
06:21particular place enjoying their afternoon, their holiday. But then terrorists show up and they kill
06:26and they go away and no one has any idea why the security people were not there. While this has
06:32been a part of the public discussion for a while about, you know, conflicting number of the security
06:37forces available in Kashmir. Some people say there are 300,000. Some say there are 700,000. But there
06:43is a fairly good number of security forces in Kashmir. So, that takes me to, you know, one conclusion that
06:50terrorism always, you know, happens with an element of surprise. While as you can make tall claims of
06:56security everywhere, but then they will find out some of the other way to do something in a very
07:01surprising way and go back. And the kind of strategies that have been adopted by separatists
07:07over the last four or five years is exactly like that. They don't stay on in the woods or in any place
07:12for a very long time. They do some precise, some kind of research, they execute and they go away. So,
07:19in most of the incidents that have, this incident has been quite huge. I mean, it's a massacre,
07:23it's a carnage, but there have been high profile security related incidents over past four or five
07:28years. When I remember repeatedly past four or five years, which means that the security environment
07:33post-2019, when the constitutional relationship of Kashmir with the rest of India was changed.
07:38So, there have been some incidents like attack on the security forces, attack on the minorities,
07:43particularly in the Jammu region. But there has not been very great degree of success in hunting
07:49down the terrorists or finding out which way they took, how they arrived at a particular place,
07:54how they executed and where did they disappear. So, these questions will remain that, you know,
08:00thousands of people at a vulnerable place were there and the security forces, particularly the
08:06place where this incident happened does not have, you know, road connectivity. People have to reach there
08:12on the horsebacks. So, which means that an incident of this scale has happened. It takes a while for the
08:17security forces to reach there and it becomes very difficult to evacuate the injured or the dead as
08:24well. So, if security forces are not reaching there by road and by that time the forces reach there,
08:28the militants have already traveled a few miles away. So, it becomes very difficult.
08:34You know, Abdullah said on his ex-handle, and I'm quoting him now, needless to say that this attack is
08:41much larger than anything we have seen directed at civilians in recent years. In my memory,
08:48I don't think something of this scale in terms of civilian carnage has ever happened since 1989. This
08:54is the biggest of its kind in terms of specific targeting and the number of people dying because of
09:00that. So, two incidents come to mind which have happened over the last 30 to 35 years. One is this
09:09attack in 2001 that happened on the Legislative Assembly in Kashmir, which left 38 persons killed.
09:15Okay. Right. Okay. And the other was the Chhati Singpura massacre on the occasion of Bill Clinton's
09:22presence in New Delhi. So, when this terrorist attacked a sick village in South Kashmir and they killed
09:28probably more than 30. I'm not remembering the exact figure, but probably that was more than 30.
09:33So, this has been a bigger incident. But in 2019, this Pulwama massacre in which the security personnel
09:41were ambushed and killed, they were in the plus of 40. So, this has been, one can say that since you
09:48covered Kashmir extensively in 1990s, so this one can say that fourth biggest incident in the history of
09:55terrorism in Kashmir since 1989. I've been reading a bit and watching a few shows. I get the sense that
10:03unlike the timeframe that we are talking about, for the first time perhaps there appears to be a shift
10:10in the way ordinary Kashmiris are reacting with absolute outrage at what has happened. And this
10:17probably represents a potentially profound shift. I saw even some protests by young Kashmiri men saying that
10:24we are Indians first and Kashmiris second and we really disapprove of that. What is your sense of
10:31the sense of outrage on the ground? So, you are aware of this geography,
10:37demography and political nuances, cultural nuances of Jammu and Kashmir. So, there is Kashmir valley
10:42and then there is Jammu region which has diverse population dynamics like, you know, it's a Hindu majority
10:48region and the 30 to 32 percent Muslim population here. The kind of spontaneous reaction that has
10:55happened from all across Jammu and Kashmir since yesterday afternoon, I haven't seen that before.
11:00So, I've seen since yesterday that young children coming out of madarsas with their skull caps and
11:07their chalwar suits coming out with, you know, candlelight processions and making out very strong
11:13statements. I think people of Jammu and Kashmir have completely moved away from any kind of emotional
11:19or sentimental thing which could be, which could be, you know, read in a manner that anyone here who
11:25thinks that violence can be any form of support to the political aspirations of the people. So, there is
11:32one wise whether that is Hindu, Muslim, irrespective of any political affiliations, any regional community
11:39or religious affiliations. So, everyone has condemned and very passionately and in a very strong
11:46possible words, everyone has condemned. So, I was completely moved by some of the videos that have
11:52come up for these people, some of the people who were injured there at Palgam incident. They were taken
11:58away by some local Kashmiris and, you know, they were looked after at their homes and they recorded their
12:03videos to send out about, you know, the sympathy and the care that the Kashmiri people have extended to
12:10them. So, this incident also is not, I'm sure that you have seen, everyone has seen a couple of
12:19statements and particularly one victim, women who has lost her husband that when a terrorist showed up
12:25and he asked that, you know, he's a Hindu. So, which is why they're talking about, you know, they asked
12:31religion and then they killed. So, there is the Kashmiris feel that this is not just an attack on Hindus.
12:39This is not just an attack on the Indian government, Indian state. This is not just an attack on tourists.
12:45This is an attack on the Kashmir Valley entirely because, you know, they feel very strongly about this,
12:51that this is an attack on all of us. Do you think that presents both the state government as well as
12:59especially the Modi government potential to harvest in a direction which will change the situation on
13:08the ground? So, it's very difficult to make an assessment because as we speak, a cabinet committee
13:15and the security meeting is going on in New Delhi, which is being chaired by the Prime Minister.
13:19Prime Minister was away to Saudi Arabia. He had to cut his visit short and has come back.
13:24The Defence Minister was on a visit to Ladakh. He has also flown back to Delhi to attend this meeting.
13:29It's a very crucial, very important meeting. So, one does not, you know, understand that what's
13:33going on, what decision is going to be taken there. But it's a very, very complex situation.
13:39It's a very difficult situation. I'm reminded of the incidents which happened in early 2019,
13:47in 2016 when this ghastly terror attack took place on a security formation in Uri, which is in the north
13:55of Kashmir Valley, where a number of soldiers were killed. So, then India conducted surgical strikes.
14:01And that was the first time ever that, you know, India crossed the line of control and conducted
14:06strikes within the territory of Pakistan. But then, you know, there was a certain dynamic that
14:10those strikes were in the territory of the Pakistan-occupied Kashmir. So, there was a message
14:16for Pakistan, but then the territory is something that technically constitutionally belongs to India.
14:21Right.
14:22But in 2019, India crossed over the international line of control, but went into the Pakistan proper to
14:30conduct the surgical strikes there. So, that was to exhibit the capabilities that this is what we
14:35can do as well. It's not just about fighting on our soil. We can fight you on your soil as well.
14:41But things have not changed very significantly since then. There is an improvement in law and order
14:46situation underground, as far as the local people get involved in, you know, public order and stone
14:52pelting and other kinds of unrest. But as far as terrorism is concerned, I think some kind of, you
14:58know, long-term solution will have to be found out. So, it's very difficult to make an assessment.
15:04Right. You know, the group claiming the responsibility, the so-called the resistance front,
15:10it's not very well known, but apparently it's, it has the reputation of being ferocious and clear
15:16links with the Pakistani terrorist outfit, Lashkira Taiba. Yes.
15:21What, what do you know about it? Because I'll come to a particular point, but once you tell me
15:26what you know about it, I want to pick your brain on a comment apparently attributed to them that
15:31they've made. So, well, this has been a lot mischievous because the groups like these,
15:37the resistance front, Kashmir fights and a number of other organizations. So, there is something,
15:44you know, anti-fascist front or something. There has been, there are, these are three, four groups.
15:49So, one does not know that one, one cannot really find a face for this organization to figure out
15:57that, you know, who is behind this organization. But they are quick to take responsibilities and
16:02sometimes, you know, it just appears that they are a front of the Lashkira Taiba or Jaish-e-Mohammed or
16:07something. So, there has been a shift over the last four or five years because of some international
16:11ramifications that these groups have not been, the, the, the, the well-established groups which
16:16have been operating since 1990s. So, they have not been taking direct responsibility, the LAT,
16:21Jaish-e-Mohammed or Hezbollah Mujahideen. So, these splinter groups, these smaller groups,
16:25about whom no one knows, they operate through the Telegram groups. They sent out some
16:29snippets through the WhatsApp or put out something on the Twitter and they just completely confuse
16:35investigation. They just completely confuse the public perception and narrative. So, by the time
16:40investigations begin. So, this group has proclaimed responsibility, but one does not really know
16:47that whether there was some more organized group, a terrorist organization, some state, some kind of
16:53state involvement or what. So, they leave you confused for a while before you arrive at a conclusion
16:59that who was actually responsible. Right. I suppose that's the strategy, even if there is a suspicion
17:05of Pakistani intelligence being involved at some level. But the point is, yeah, go ahead. Sorry.
17:11Yeah, that could be a possibility because you just keep on figuring out that who is people's
17:17anti-fascist group, who is the resistance front. And it takes a while to, you know, figure out. And by
17:22that time, you know, a number of things have disappeared.
17:25Yeah. Within that, a particular comment attributed to the so-called group that jumped out at me was
17:32the question of demographic shift. Right. That people, some people have talked about since 2019
17:39after the abrogation of 370. Yeah. Now, demographic shift, in my judgment, has the potential to have some
17:47popular appeal. If they keep harping on that, saying that non-Kashmiris are coming and taking over land,
17:54although there is no particular evidence on the ground that that has happened in any significant
17:59manner. Right. Within that context, I was reading about JNK state assembly being told some time ago
18:05that some 83,000 domicile certificates have been issued. How do you look at this whole issue of
18:12demographic shift? So, first of all, that, you know, these terrorist groups claiming that because 83,000
18:21people came and settled and so just we need to attack them to scare them away. So, this is not
18:27something, this is not a problem of terrorists, if this is a problem at all. This has to be a problem
18:32of the people of Jomu and Kashmir to speak out and talk about this, whether they are comfortable with
18:37this or not. So, then this authority rests with the political parties. This authority rests with the
18:45non-governmental organization, political activists, social activists and other people who are concerned
18:51about the demography, about the politics, about the culture, about the economy and resources of Jomu and Kashmir
18:58to speak out. So, this new domicile law that comes up after the Reorganization Act of 2019, which allows people who have
19:05stayed here in Jomu and Kashmir for more than 15 years to claim their local domiciles. So, there is
19:13something that has been going on for the last five years and there hasn't been any organized protest from
19:20any regional, major regional political party, any major regional organization that we want to resist this,
19:27that we don't want this to happen, that we don't want people to get the domicile certificates. If this has not
19:33been a vice from the people of Jomu and Kashmir, then there cannot be any legitimacy or any kind of
19:40connection for the terrorist organization to claim that this is the reason why they are doing this.
19:49So, there is a constitutional law, whether you are happy with that or not, there is a constitutional law
19:54that sets out a formula, that sets out a pattern that if you qualify these criteria,
19:59so you are able to get a domicile certificate. So, there is some number 83,000. Somebody asked this question in the
20:05Legislative Assembly and the government said 83,000 in last two years. But this number could be much higher than the
20:1283,000 because the certificates begin to be given out in 2020. So, we have to look at a five-year period.
20:20But since we live in the region and we do not see a significant change in the demography because
20:26this bar of 15 years, which means that someone who was already working here, someone who was already
20:32mixed up in the local society, he claimed the domicile of Jomu and Kashmir. So, there hasn't been any
20:37strong local resistance to that extent. Right. And within that, again, what stands out for me is that,
20:45forget, non-local Kashmiris coming and taking or even Kashmiri pundits are not coming back in any
20:50significant number yet. This is very important, sir. So, there are two, three categories of people.
20:57One is that Kashmiri pundits. So, who left their places in 1989-90 and because of, you know,
21:04a peculiar circumstances, it's more than three decades. It's close to three, four decades. It's just
21:09that because somebody is distributing domicile certificates and then you leave your work,
21:14you everything, whatever you built, you know, out of crisis in last three decades or four decades
21:19and you rush back to Kashmir because a certain government allegedly wants to change the
21:23demography and you come back and change the demography. So, there are some other sets of
21:27people like who the citizen residents of subjects of Jomu and Kashmir who got displaced in 1947.
21:35Some people got displaced in 1965 and then they dispersed to different parts of country.
21:41So, the circumstances did not allow them to get settled down in Jomu and Kashmir in 1947.
21:47So, there are a number of people who are in other parts of the country, in Punjab, in Haryana,
21:51in Delhi, in Maharashtra and different places. They have not come back to claim the domicile certificates.
21:57So, yes, there is an issue. That is a political issue. But there is no scale or level of resistance
22:04that should inspire a terrorist organization to come and scare away people from there.
22:09That's a significant point. That's a significant point. And finally, Zafar, this is of course
22:14speculative. I'm not expecting you to respond in any substantive manner. But I was, it's again struck me
22:22that the extradition of the Huburus and Rana, who has been, I mean, because I reported the trial here in
22:30Chicago, there were clear signs of his Lashkar-e-Taiba link. Now, his extradition and this sudden attack
22:39by an organization which may have clear links with LET, it's an interesting development. Speculative,
22:45but I find it interesting. Well, yeah, because, you know, we just cannot keep our mind away from,
22:51you know, some of the developments which have taken place recently. So, one is this, of course. One is
22:56this, of course. You know, when an incident of this scale or even of a smaller scale happens,
23:03so ordinary people will say that, okay, Pakistan has done this, one terrorist organization of the
23:08other has done this. But people in the strategic community, people who have some understanding of the
23:13security apparatus and how things move, they will certainly think about, you know, to connect some
23:19kind of dots that why did this happen? Why did this happen at a particular place? And why did
23:25that happen at a particular time? So, Tawur Rao Narana is one. So, I don't have very strong reasons to
23:31connect that. But at the same time, I can also not say that there is no connection between this incident
23:37and his, you know, extradition to India. The other is that, you know, four or five days ago,
23:41there was a very emotional, very, you know, kind of aggressive kind of speech by the Pakistani army
23:49chief who made two points together. One is that, you know, that we Muslims are completely, you know,
23:56different from Hindus and which is why our country was created, which laid the foundation of the two
24:01nation theory. So, and second is that, you know, Kashmir continues to be our jugular van and we stand in
24:08solidarity with our brethren there. So, it's very difficult to disconnect yourself from the, you
24:16know, elements of the, both elements of this speech. One is, of course, Kashmir and then you find
24:20something happening in Kashmir. And the second is that, you know, we Hindus, Muslims are completely
24:27different from the Hindus and then somebody, a terrorist comes and he shoots and he asks that,
24:32okay, he's a Hindu and let's kill him. Let's kill him. So, once you have heard this speech,
24:39watch this speech, and once you have known about this incident, whether there is a connection or not,
24:45but you just, you know, that will keep playing on at the back of your mind, that is there a connection
24:50between the two. Right. Before I let you go, one final thing in terms of the political dynamic in the
24:56aftermath, which we referred to earlier in my first question, the Abdullah federal central government
25:03dynamic. What happens now? What, what exactly does he do? Does he just sit and express contempt or what,
25:10what, what are his options? So, uh, if I had been in place of Omar Abdullah, an elected person running a
25:21government for six months and no substantial power in my hands. So in backdrop of the incident yesterday,
25:30I would tell the Narendra Modi government and Amit Shah that I'm happy with, you have left me with,
25:37I'll keep on working with the people. Now the security apparatus is with you. You take, how so,
25:43you know, whatever long time you need to take for four years, five years, but clear it from terrorism,
25:49then hand it over to us. So even if I take over the power at the moment, so just imagine that had
25:59Omar Abdullah been in power, uh, around, you know, this incident, there would have been a cry across
26:06the country for his resignation and maybe probably he would have been made to resign on this incident.
26:11So the basic premise, if we go through all the speeches, all the developments in the parliament
26:18and outside the parliament, the basic premise for abrogation of article 370, let's not talk about
26:24article 370, the basic premise for downgrade of the state of Jomo and Kashmir to the union territory and
26:29basic premise of holding the powers in your own hands and not sharing authority with the elected
26:35government is rests on this, that there is a special, there are special circumstances, there is terrorism,
26:41and there has to be a single authority to deal with these challenges. So let this power remain
26:47with the single authority to fight the challenges that we are facing in Kashmir at the moment.
26:53On that note, Zafar, I want to thank you for your time. It's always greatly appreciated.
26:57Thank you so much, thank you so much.