GB News senior political commentator Nigel Nelson sparked a fiery trans row with Dr Renee Hoenderkamp after Prime Minister Sir Keir Starmer broke his silence on the Supreme Court's ruling on women.Following protests from the transgender community and its supporters over the weekend, the Labour leader welcomed the Supreme Court's ruling that defines a woman as "an adult female", marking a shift from his previous stance on transgender issues.FULL STORY HERE.
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00:00We're joined by Dr. Ernie Hunter-Kamp and Nigel Nelson in the studio.
00:03They've been squabbling off air, so they've been squabbling on air.
00:08Finally, your leader.
00:10He speaks. He has a view.
00:13And he's spoken on the Supreme Court ruling, Nigel.
00:17I have not heard this this morning, obviously, and I've not heard him.
00:20He says a woman is a woman.
00:23A woman is an adult female.
00:24A woman is an adult female.
00:25And unprovidably supported the ruling.
00:27Right. Well, the next stage for all this is going to be how you sort out the Gender Recognition Act.
00:34You scrap it.
00:34Where we have a situation where...
00:37Now, this came from 2004, before the Equalities Act.
00:40Yes, that's right.
00:42But there's still the situation where a man can be a woman officially
00:48on the basis they can change their birth certificate and their passport.
00:52So the gender recognition certificate, which costs £5, is pretty much redundant now.
00:58Well, it's not... No, it's not redundant.
00:59I mean, not many people actually use it.
01:01Well, I think there's only 10,000 anyway.
01:03Yeah, that's right.
01:04That's the time.
01:05I think there's 8,000 since it actually started.
01:08But the point about that is that you have to prove...
01:14Or you have to have a diagnosis of gender dysphoria.
01:17You have to live in your acquired gender for two years.
01:19How do you live as of another sex for two years?
01:22You just wear the other clothes.
01:23That's it.
01:23Is that easy?
01:24Just wear different clothes?
01:25Well, I mean, it depends how you want to live in that...
01:28No, no.
01:28It's a genuine...
01:29I don't know.
01:29I mean, I don't know how...
01:31But Nigel, does it have a point?
01:33We now have this situation where you can change your sex on your birth certificate if you follow this process,
01:38but it doesn't mean anything in law and life because you now, we assume, will be excluded from single-sex births.
01:44Right.
01:45And also, it's dangerous.
01:46And I explained this to Nigel this morning, that if I'm a doctor and you, Miriam, which I am...
01:51I forgot that for a moment.
01:53And you come to me, but you are actually a man, but you look like a woman, and your medical records have been changed to tell me that you're a man,
02:00and you come in, or the other way around, whatever it is.
02:02Say you come in, you're a man, but you were a woman, and you've got tummy ache, and I do all of the investigations that I need to do,
02:08but the one thing I don't investigate is ovarian cancer because you're a man, you don't have ovaries.
02:12I miss your cancer early, and you then represent later with terminal ovarian cancer.
02:17Whose fault is it?
02:18Is it mine?
02:19Is it yours?
02:20This is a nonsense.
02:22We need to scrap the Gender Recognition Act and rescind all of the certificates.
02:27I don't mind how anybody wants to live.
02:29If they want to live looking like a woman with a dress on and high heels and whatever it is they feel makes a woman, that's fine.
02:35But what they can't do, or shouldn't be able to do, is change data.
02:39Because data is how we plan societies.
02:42We won't be able to plan for our prisons, for our health services, for our schools, anything else.
02:48I get that.
02:48I'm just being deaf as a advocate, because I'm with you 100%, but Nigel's point, what do we do about the person who has fully transitioned from male to female?
02:56Which are very few.
02:57Which are very few, but they exist.
02:59Where do they, there's a public loo, male and female, where do they go?
03:04Well, as I've always said, as a woman, my job is not to find their solutions for them.
03:12My job is to protect women and women's spaces.
03:16So they're on their own then?
03:17They have to find their own solutions.
03:18Now, be that maybe it's a third space.
03:20But the solution there is a unisexed, unisexed toilet.
03:23Or a disabled toilet, if there is not a unisexed toilet.
03:24It's a third space.
03:26Because I think the point...
03:27And there's lots of those now around anyway, let's be honest.
03:29And the point that's often missed in this is, the reason for single-sex toilets is not just because women like to go in there and do their make-up together.
03:36It's because, sadly, almost all sex offences are committed by men.
03:40It's still a tiny proportion of men, obviously, but in intimate spaces...
03:43But we don't know who they are.
03:44Exactly.
03:45And transitioning from male to female does not change the pattern of male sex offence.
03:50It doesn't.
03:50In fact, there are proportionally much more trans women, so men, in prison for sex offences than there are non-trans men.
03:57I wonder what that is.
03:58I think some of it is because they transition after the offence to try and go to a female prison.
04:04But I think Miriam's right.
04:05You're talking tiny, tiny, you know, groups of people here.
04:08I know we are, but you know what?
04:09If men are allowed to go in women's toilets, predatory men will do that on purpose.
04:12Isn't that the whole point?
04:13Tiny, tiny group of people, and yet this whole country seems to have been consumed by this.
04:17Well, it's not.
04:18No, I don't think that's untrue.
04:20I think that the chattering classes have been consumed by it.
04:24Well, we've had the Supreme Court to rule on this, right?
04:26They did.
04:26Because of what madness was going on in Scotland.
04:28Yes, you go back to what the Supreme Court was actually doing.
04:31What they were ruling on was the membership of public bodies, public boards, where the Scots
04:42had decided on 50-50 male-female.
04:45The ridiculous situation that would have created, because they allowed trans women to identify
04:51as female, is you could have ended up with a board 100% biological male.
04:56And still said it was 50-50.
04:58Yeah.
04:59So the whole point was, the court saw this was a ridiculous situation.
05:03What they've actually said is that biological sex can't be changed.
05:09That's the most important thing.
05:12What effect that will have on behaviour, we'll have to see.
05:16But that's all they did.
05:17They didn't set an obligation on organisations to change their practices.
05:24But, Nigel...
05:24What it meant was that organisations can change their practices if they wished.
05:28In women's sport, it would be particularly important, because it means you could ban trans
05:33women from female events without any fear of any court action afterwards.
05:38It was an obligation, wasn't it?
05:40Because the impact of the ruling is that if you provide a single-sex service, it has
05:45to now be single-sex.
05:47So I think what it means is, if you decide that it's not going to be single-sex and a
05:51woman complains, then you have to bend to her view.
05:55Yes, that's right.
05:55Yes, that's what it means.
05:57But the point that you made there, Nigel, about you now don't have the right to change
06:00your biological sex, renders gender recognition certificates null and void, and it also
06:05means that all data, from police records to medical records, should go back to reflect
06:18biological sex.
06:20Is there...
06:20I'm getting on to Peter Pacific again.
06:22For instance, a women's only space, a changing room, what if the woman is, and I don't know
06:28if I'm allowed to say this, but I'm going to say it anyway, what I would call a butch,
06:31masculine-looking woman, maybe a lesbian, chooses to wear all-male clothes, Doc Martens,
06:38is someone going to have to...
06:39Is someone then...
06:40Is it then someone's job to say, excuse me, are you a man or a woman?
06:44I mean, I think that could happen, potentially.
06:46I don't think it will, because those women have always existed.
06:49Yes.
06:49And I've never been in a changing room and looked at one of those women.
06:53You know who they are.
06:54Well, I think that.
06:54And thought to myself, oh...
06:55Well, of course they are, because they're trying to obfugate the real facts here.
07:01And I think the fact that we've seen these people out protesting this weekend, and we
07:05will again next weekend, we have, on the one hand, people like Peter Tatchell saying,
07:10this has made no difference whatsoever.
07:11Well, if it's made no difference, what are they protesting?
07:14Good point.
07:14Well, you can...
07:15Well, you can...