Mason Jimmy Jam Terry Lewis Interview
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00:00Good to see you both today. We'll get started. I won't hold you long, man. It's a hundred million stories we could do, and they're all fun, and we've been following you guys.
00:09Just to help people, we know you come out of Minneapolis, but how did you get into music? I don't think I've ever heard how you got into it.
00:19Well, for me, I grew up in a musical household in the sense that my dad played music. I mean, that's what he did professionally for a long time, and between that and always having instruments around the house and my mom being a huge music lover and playing records on the radio incessantly and on the jukebox and stuff, yeah, that was it for me.
00:47I just grew up in that environment, I guess.
00:50And you, Jerry?
00:52Well, I was an athlete, and I got injured, and I had a lot of friends of mine who were musicians, and my stepfather had this guitar laying around the house that he had broke the top two strings off of.
01:08So I used to pick it up and play around with it, and ended up kind of liking it, and I hustled a lot, so I'd go out and shovel some snow and rake some leaves and end up going to Montgomery Awards and buy myself a bass.
01:24Wow. So that's what I did. My mother bought me a six-string acoustic, and I saw this guy play the bass at a talent show. I went home, and I stripped two of the strings off so it would have a bass feel.
01:40And back then, you could buy it at a place called Lafayette Music. So you remember that? Going back.
01:49By the way, I just wanted to say on that same subject, I spoke to Bootsy Collins the other day.
01:57I do a show on SiriusXM called The Jimmy Jam Show that's an interview show, and I interviewed Bootsy the other day.
02:02He said that's how he got into playing bass, because his brother had a guitar, but he took the two strings off of it to make it into a bass.
02:12Because he said, my brother already played guitar, so I needed to figure out what to do, and that's how he got his start.
02:17So y'all got that in common.
02:19We all got that in common. That's a great story.
02:22And Bootsy is one of the greats ever, man.
02:24Oh, man. I was just watching him doing his James Brown thing, man, when they got picked up to do the JB thing out of Cincy.
02:35He was young, but you could tell he was in it. He was in it, man.
02:41You guys have done the gamut. This new album kind of tells the story musically somewhat.
02:48Talk about it. Give people the title of it, and talk about some of the people that you put on there.
02:54It's like a parade of stars for us.
02:59Well, the album is simply called Jammin' Loose Volume 1, and we call it Volume 1 for a couple of reasons.
03:05One is because it's our first album that we're doing as artists, and second of all, because we plan on Volume 2, Volume 3.
03:13We plan on continuing this path that we're on.
03:19I'll tell you real quick.
03:20The origin of the album started 35 years ago when we were doing the Control album with Janet.
03:25And the A&R person was a guy named John McClane, and he came to Minneapolis to listen to what we had done.
03:33And we played him Control. We played him Nasty. We played him Pleasure Principle.
03:38We played him When I Think of You.
03:39And we're thinking, man, we're good, right?
03:41And he goes, like all A&R people, I just need one more.
03:45I'm like, what are you talking about, one more? I just need one more.
03:47So anyway, we said, no, forget that.
03:49So we hopped in the car. We were going to grab a bite to eat.
03:52Terry puts a cassette in, and he says, listen to this. This is our album that we're working on.
03:56And about the third track in that we played, John said, that's the one I need for Janet.
04:01And we were like, what are you talking about?
04:02He said, well, if she likes it, give it to her.
04:04And we're like, okay, just taking our songs.
04:06Okay, cool.
04:06So the next day, we went to the studio, put the song on, didn't even tell her, just put it on.
04:12When it was over, she just walked in the studio and said, who's that for?
04:15And we said, well, you if you want it.
04:17She said, oh, I want it.
04:18That song was, what have you done for me lately?
04:21Wow.
04:22So it started her career.
04:26It didn't, it postponed ours, we'll put it like that.
04:30And over the years, we've been trying to get back to doing our album.
04:34About three years ago, we were honored to be inducted into the Songwriters Hall of Fame.
04:39And in that same, thank you.
04:42And in that same induction class with us was Babyface.
04:47And we started talking about when people, what is it that you guys haven't done?
04:52And we were like, well, we never worked together.
04:55It'd be fun to work together.
04:57And so this is kind of the culmination of that.
05:01Kind of a long term plan that's kind of worked out right now.
05:05So you don't know nothing about it.
05:07It's the first single.
05:08But the idea with Babyface is really the idea with the rest of the album.
05:12It's really, we've made a wish list of people who we've worked with before, who we had some success with.
05:18And then we also made a wish list of people we hadn't worked with before.
05:23And then tried to kind of bring them all together.
05:25And the album is still in progress.
05:27But we have a nice, you know, it's very nice that people said yes to us.
05:32Yes, of course.
05:35You guys are American treasures in the music world.
05:39You are American treasures.
05:40You will go down in history with the Quincy Jones and people of that nature.
05:49You said you started out to kind of do your own thing.
05:55Of course, this is an easy question to ask now.
05:59And it's always interesting to get the feedback from it.
06:02Did you not set out to be who you are musically as we know you today?
06:09Was that not the plan?
06:12Well, back a long time ago, we were asked about our production and our musical prowess, I guess you would call it.
06:22And, you know, our whole aim was we never thought about being famous.
06:27We just wanted to be better at what we did, what our craft is.
06:30So we would always say that we wanted to be warm for a long time, not the hottest producers, you know, at the time.
06:38And kind of we've been around and, you know, in between the music, we've raised families and we've done other things.
06:45Jam's been, you know, the head guy at the recording academy and the whole thing.
06:51So it's been, you know, chairman there.
06:54So we've done a whole lot of different things.
06:57We've been on a lot of different boards and whatnot.
06:59I've been coaching and doing whatever, trying to help the kids grow up.
07:03And kind of life takes you in and out of, you know, being just concentrated on music.
07:10You know, music, she's a jealous girl.
07:13She wants you to have all of her attention.
07:15She wants it all focused on her.
07:18So she'll give everybody hits while she's not giving you hits.
07:24But if you pay attention, she'll give you a few hits here and there.
07:27So, you know, we always just love the music.
07:30We love music.
07:31And do you both read?
07:34Yeah, I read a book.
07:38But not music.
07:39You read music?
07:41Yes.
07:42Yeah, we read it kind of about as well as we probably read Japanese.
07:46I mean, wow.
07:48Not very good.
07:51Yeah.
07:51Reading music is a great thing.
07:54I mean, we just never did.
07:56Back in high school and, you know, a little bit post high school, I read music very slowly.
08:03When you have to take jazz band or whatever.
08:06But it was all just a feeling, I think, for both of us.
08:11Just you pick up what you can and, you know, listen to all your favorites, man, and learn.
08:18Study.
08:18Yeah, that's probably the best thing that's for us, the way we learned music.
08:24If you think about it, our education in music really came from being in bands and playing the songs that were hits.
08:32Right.
08:32So when you get hired to do a gig and somebody would say, hey, do you know, you know, The Whispers or do you know Stevie Wonder or do you know Tower of Power or do you know whatever.
08:41It would be like, okay, we have to learn those songs.
08:43And in learning those songs, we learned the, you know, we learned the elements that went into it.
08:51So we just started cooking up our own stuff.
08:54And that was such a great education.
08:56And also we learned how to please the crowd.
08:59Because I think a lot of acts don't have that seasoning, as Terry likes to call it, the seasoning of going out and actually playing what you do.
09:07And even me as a DJ, because I DJed for quite a while.
09:09And it's like you learn how to fill the dance floor and how to keep people going.
09:13So all of those lessons, I think, are very important.
09:16And as Terry talked about being warm for a long time and our longevity in doing what we do is knowing all those things in our foundation.
09:24You really haven't been taught unless you've been booed.
09:28You got to get booed a couple of times.
09:32Yeah, you do learn it.
09:34You learn it quick and fast.
09:36That's right.
09:36You got to go back to work.
09:38I remember I was in this little group, right?
09:41We did this talent show.
09:42So we knew we were outnumbered at the time during that talent show was a group called the Dazz Band, James Ingram, Howard Hewitt.
09:53They were all in this talent because the show was in Akron, Ohio.
09:57So we got this little group.
09:58We're like, now, how are we going to beat them?
10:01So we did our little plan.
10:03We took all the fat girls in school.
10:06We gave them three tickets because every fat girl has a pretty skinny friend.
10:12So we know that they would give them the ticket.
10:16And then we told them the show started at 6, not 8.
10:20So they'd be up front.
10:22And we went first with a copy song.
10:26And that got us over.
10:27So, yeah, you're right.
10:28You got to scheme and know your thing.
10:32I don't think I've heard that one.
10:36That's a good one.
10:37I don't think I've heard that one before.
10:39The next time you see the OJs, Eric Nolan Grant, ask him.
10:45He was in our little group back there.
10:47We did Bright Inside the Darkness.
10:49We went to the band room.
10:50Speaking of the band room, got three horn players who reluctantly,
10:55because jazz musicians did not want to do soul music,
10:58who reluctantly came and played with us and did the horn section
11:01on Bright Inside the Darkness, Love Joe's, and we killed it.
11:05Fatigue got the audience and the judges when the good groups came on.
11:10So we went.
11:13So you got Babyface on the Lewiston Jam Volume 1.
11:17Who else?
11:17Well, I'll tell you who we have on our wish list,
11:21because we're not, as I say, we're still, it's still a work in progress.
11:25Sure.
11:25But people on our wish list, always at the top of any wish list
11:28that we ever have is Janet, because we go back with her.
11:31We're celebrating the 35th anniversary of the Control album this year.
11:36Actually, February 4th, I think is the actual date of the release of the album.
11:41So she's always top of mind.
11:44It's also in milestone years.
11:46It's the 50th anniversary of Sounds of Blackness.
11:49So Sounds of Blackness are always at any foundation of things that we do.
11:54It's also the 40-year anniversary of the first The Time album.
11:59So obviously, Morris Day, Jerome Benton,
12:02those guys are always top of list also.
12:05As far as people that, and then people that we've worked with over the years
12:09that we've had success with, who we are inspired to write songs for.
12:13People like Boyz II Men, people like Mary J. Blige, people like Usher.
12:18Those are kind of our go-to.
12:20Charlie Wilson, people like that.
12:22They're like our go-to.
12:23And then people we haven't worked with before.
12:25Or, yeah, who do you say T?
12:27Mariah.
12:28Yeah, absolutely.
12:29Mariah.
12:29Yeah, she's definitely top of the list.
12:31So those are the people that we worked with before and have some success with.
12:34And then somebody who we never had a chance to work with,
12:37who we always wanted to do, was Tony Braxton.
12:40And so I think that gives you a little bit of the feel of what we're trying to do
12:46and our wish list.
12:48And hopefully we will pull that off, among some other folks too.
12:52But hopefully we will pull that off.
12:54Terry, he says it's a wish list.
12:56But I mean, if you say to Janet Jackson, hey, we're doing something,
13:03I don't know how she sits and contemplates.
13:06Hmm.
13:07Because she's Janet Jackson because of Lewis and Jam.
13:12Thank goodness her father realized those other producers were way out of their league
13:17to try to make that teeny bop happen at the time.
13:22I mean, you guys put her on the same status as her brother Michael.
13:27So when you say she's on the wish list, she might have her own wish list,
13:31and I wish they asked me.
13:34Well, she's definitely on the wish list.
13:37I mean, you always have to consider what everyone is doing at whatever time that you're doing what you're doing.
13:42So, you know, you don't assume that anyone is free or available to do what you need them to do.
13:48But it's a pleasure and a treasure to have her, be a part of it.
13:55So we look forward to it.
13:58Sure.
13:59One of the fun things that I got a chance to see, because I'm into watching people do their art,
14:07and I'm so glad you guys did share that video where it was hit social platforms,
14:12is when you did, speaking of working with Boyz II Men,
14:16that Force MD's piece that came from the soundtrack.
14:19That was just amazing to see you guys put that song together.
14:26And it didn't take you long.
14:29Now, when you say, you know, I know people would say, well, you said that it didn't take you that long.
14:35But it took all those years you guys have been together to make it happen that quickly.
14:40Can you talk about that a little bit, that particular song?
14:47Oh, Tender Love?
14:47Well, Tender Love, the inspiration was a little different.
14:51Because most of the time when we worked on songs, it would just be an idea that would pop in our head.
14:55And we wouldn't know based on working with an artist.
14:58Like when we knew when we were working with a certain artist,
15:00we would tailor songs for that particular artist.
15:04The idea with Tender Love was that it was a song for a movie.
15:08So we sent this, they sent us the scene to the movie that they wanted the music to.
15:14And what we did was then basically write the song around the way that the scene was cut originally.
15:20It changed in the movie.
15:22They actually shortened it.
15:23But literally, as you know, we were putting the music together and the lyrics together,
15:28like when the song said candles would light the dark,
15:30like literally that was what was happening on the screen.
15:32So we were basically writing from a different place.
15:35And then we didn't know that it was going to be Force MDs.
15:39When we finished the song, then I think the movie company said,
15:43OK, we're going to have these guys, the Force MDs, sing it.
15:46And we were familiar with them.
15:48And we were like, OK, cool.
15:49And they sent them up to Minneapolis and they sang.
15:52And it was just one of those things that magically happened.
15:54But it really wasn't in our control.
15:56But the guys were amazing.
15:58And the song has obviously lived on.
16:01It ended up being our first pop, top 10 pop hit.
16:07And obviously, number one everywhere else.
16:09And so, yeah, it was an amazing experience.
16:12The other thing that it did for us is that because people knew us from the time
16:16and people knew us from, you know, the funky records we did,
16:20whether it was, you know, Just Be Good to Me or Saturday Love or Encore,
16:24you know, those kinds of records, that all of a sudden when they heard that record,
16:27they said, well, wait a minute, those guys did that?
16:29Wait, they can do ballads too?
16:31And it's like, yeah, we can do a little bit of everything.
16:33So it definitely opened a ton of doors for us.
16:36And one of our favorites, obviously, of all time.
16:40I met this guy.
16:41I'm on the radio in Detroit at WJOB.
16:44And this guy would always come up to the stage.
16:46He'd go, Mace, Mace, listen, man.
16:48I'm in this group called Sounds of Blackness.
16:50Man, wait till you hear this.
16:52Wait till you hear this.
16:54How did that come about, the relationship?
16:58And it's more than just some group that popped up for you, I'm sure.
17:04Well, Sounds of Blackness was a group that was an institution
17:07around the Minneapolis area for, well, now it's almost 50 years.
17:13And back then, it was like in the 20-somethings or 30s.
17:17I can't remember because I'm not great with dates.
17:20But my older brother was in the Sounds of Blackness when he was in high school.
17:25And so there's a little story that went along with this.
17:30We were actually working on the Janet album.
17:32And we were just starting our new label, Perspective Records.
17:36And Janet was in Minneapolis.
17:39And we took her to, I think it was a Christmas show.
17:41And she just fell in love with the sound.
17:46And she said, you guys should sign them and do something with them.
17:49And that's just what we did.
17:52Wow!
17:52And we went on to make an album with them.
17:56And Gary Hines, who was part of the institution of Keeping It Together, fantastic.
18:02Singers that come and go.
18:04Ann Nesby, Big Jim Wright, you know, so on and so forth.
18:09I mean, just great vocalist, just a historical piece of work.
18:15And actually, it started at Macalester College in St. Paul.
18:18And Mahmoud Al-Khate, who was Stokely Williams' father.
18:22Okay.
18:23Was actually the guy that inspired them to get together to become the Sounds of Blackness.
18:28And, you know, it's a whole long lineage that comes from that first musical institution that
18:37they started there, at Macalester College.
18:41Terry, you were an athlete.
18:43What sport did you play?
18:45And how much of what you learned from sports did you bring to the partnership with Jam?
18:53Play anything with a ball, man.
18:55It's anything with a ball.
18:59You know how it is.
19:00In the hood, you know, if there's a ball, we play it.
19:03Like, but track, football, baseball, anything.
19:10Just athletic.
19:11And what sports teaches you is how to be a good team player.
19:16Hopefully.
19:18You know, even if you're really good at something, you still need the team to support you.
19:22You can't run if they don't block, you know, in football.
19:26You know, you can't shoot if you don't get the pass.
19:29And so on and so forth.
19:31So, you know, I think it teaches you a lot in terms of just how to get along with people,
19:38how to be a good partner, how to be a good supporter.
19:42You know, and I always say a good leader is a great follower.
19:46You know, you got to be able to follow directions.
19:50There you go.
19:50To be able to follow directions.
19:51Follow directions.
19:53Jimmy, how is it that you two became a partnership?
20:00Why Terry?
20:01Huh?
20:02Why Terry?
20:03Well, that's divine.
20:08Why Terry?
20:09He was the right person at the right time in the right place.
20:13And we were in junior high school and we were doing a program called Upward Bound.
20:20And it was on the Minnesota, University of Minnesota campus.
20:25So we were like staying in dorms and stuff.
20:27And we're like 13, 14, 15 years old at that point in time, which is nuts.
20:31How are you going to let kids stay in a dorm at 14, 15 years?
20:34But we were for it, man.
20:35We loved it.
20:36It was great.
20:37And I remember when we were moving into the dorms, one of the first people I saw that
20:43I noticed was a guy sitting on the bed with a red, black, and green bass playing Cool
20:49and the Gang on the bass.
20:52And I looked at that dude and I said, man, who's this guy?
20:56I got to get to know him.
20:57And it was Terry.
20:59And for me, it was like love at first sight because I was an only child.
21:02I had half brothers and sisters older than me, but in my household, I was an only child.
21:06So I never had, you know, like a big brother or somebody like that.
21:09And Terry just felt like that to me.
21:12He just felt like that dude I want to get to know.
21:14And I'm going to hang out with this.
21:15I'm going to bug this guy.
21:17And I think Terry then felt the same way about me because I used to play the piano in one
21:23of the lunchrooms where they stored the pianos because it was off season from school.
21:27And Terry being a musician, then I think we kind of bonded in that way.
21:32And Terry said, hey, let's put together a little band and play the end of the school
21:37party.
21:38And so that's what we did.
21:41And then Terry turned me on to musically.
21:43I was into pop music growing up because in Minneapolis, there wasn't really a lot of
21:47black radio.
21:48So me, it was, I was into Seals and Crofts in America and Chicago and all kinds of groups
21:53like that.
21:54And Terry was like, no, man, what about New Birth?
21:57What about Tower of Power?
21:58What about Earth, Wind & Fire?
22:00And I'm going, huh?
22:01Right?
22:02So he turned me on to all of those, all those people.
22:06And so the musical threads that we had and that we shared really was the thing that initially
22:10pulled us together.
22:11And then as Terry said, I think might have said later on, we were in competing bands with
22:16each other.
22:17I had a band called Mind & Matter that was more of a singing group kind of Philadelphia style
22:20band and Terry had Flight Time, which was more of a P-Funk, you know, crazy outfits, you
22:27know, type band.
22:28And so we would go head to head in these battles.
22:31And my band, I remember one time we got them really good.
22:35I mean, they just had a bad day, right?
22:36They just didn't have a good day.
22:38And we got them.
22:39But the next time we played, Terry had regrouped the band and killed us, right?
22:44And so, but we always looked at each other, not in a competition way, but in a, we need
22:50to get together and we need to team up.
22:52Imagine what we could do if we teamed up.
22:54And then that happened when the time happened.
22:56When Flight Time changed into the time Morris Day came in and Jesse and all the fellas came
23:01in.
23:02So we were always bonded from really, from day one.
23:07And we had to figure out how to actually work because my songs were all really pretty.
23:11Terry's songs were really funky.
23:13I'd come up with this little pretty song.
23:14Terry would put a funky bottom on it and we'd be like, no, no.
23:17Or he'd come up with a really funky song.
23:19And then I'd put this pretty little melody on it and he'd go, no.
23:22And we finally kind of sorted it out.
23:24The song I always say maybe explains it best.
23:27That's a hit that people would know is Just Be Good to Me by the SOS band.
23:30Because if you think about it, it's a funky beat.
23:32It's a funky bass line.
23:35Right.
23:36It's funky.
23:37But then the top of it is very.
23:42It's really the combination of the kind of what they call the funky bottom and the pretty top.
23:47Yep.
23:48Because it was a sing-along and a club record at the same time.
23:52Yeah.
23:53So that's cool.
23:54So Terry Newberg, man, Lundy Wiggins and the two cousins.
24:04Oh, man.
24:06Oh, yeah, man.
24:07I had never seen any.
24:09And then they used the nightlighters as the horn section.
24:13And I remember.
24:14I think it was called KG or something like that.
24:20Yep.
24:20But, man.
24:21So what was the Cool in the Game song you were playing at that camp at Elbert Bound?
24:28You remember?
24:29No, I can't remember that, man.
24:31Wow.
24:32It was probably Summer Madness bass player.
24:36He was probably hitting it.
24:37Yeah.
24:37Hey, you know, Cool is one of the, I guess, great bass part players.
24:43Because his bass parts are very memorable.
24:46Yeah.
24:46So there's people that can play fast.
24:48I always say Stanley Clark, he can play fast.
24:52Yeah, they can do all of that.
24:54But Cool be holding it down.
24:55So you can't sleep on Cool, man.
24:57No, you can't.
24:58No, you can't.
24:58You're right.
24:59He has those parts, you know.
25:01Just like, you know, the Ohio Players parts.
25:03You know, you hear those parts.
25:05Any of the P-Fonk stuff, they had to do a Billy Bass and, you know, Cordell Monsoon and Bootsy.
25:12And, hey, man, bass players, man.
25:16Stair Steps is like, there's so many great parts and people, man, that build you and teach you what's good and, you know, what's average.
25:27But you learn over a period of time, you know, and then those things all melt into you because you are the sum total of your experiences.
25:37So, you know.
25:38Beautiful.
25:39I'm going to let you guys go.
25:40I got to go do a COVID test.
25:41But before I go, Jam, I'm going to tell you my favorite thing about you and Terry.
25:50And probably one of the few that is not about Prince, but it happened because of Prince.
25:56You guys were supposed to be doing a show and you were still in the studio knocking some stuff out.
26:02You remember that?
26:04Instead of being where you were supposed to be.
26:06Oh, the snowstorm story?
26:09Yeah!
26:11That's my most favorite thing about you guys.
26:15It just told me no matter what's happening to you, if that's what you believe in, do what you got to do first.
26:22Well, we were, I mean, that was circumstance because we had gone down, we had agreed to do SOS Band.
26:29We had done a song with them before, but we wrote it, but we did not produce it called High Hopes.
26:34Okay.
26:35And when we met Clarence Avon, and by the way, there's a Netflix documentary called The Black Godfather.
26:43So for people that haven't seen it yet, please see it.
26:47Yes.
26:47It's amazing, about the most amazing man in our lives.
26:50But anyway, we went down to Atlanta to do the SOS Band.
26:54And then the next gig that the time had was in San Antonio, Texas.
26:59This was, I think this was 82, I want to say.
27:01No, no, 83, 1983.
27:04And we ended up having a snowstorm happen in Atlanta.
27:08And by a snowstorm, this is what we would call a dusting of snow.
27:12Like you could take a broom and sweep the snow off.
27:15It was nothing.
27:16But it shut the airport down.
27:18We ended up missing the next gig, which was the San Antonio, Texas gig.
27:21And when Prince found out about it, he just said, that's what you get for going down and
27:26seeing those girls, because that's what he thought we were doing.
27:29But what we were really doing was producing the SOS Band.
27:32And later on, it came out in Billboard magazine.
27:35And there was a picture of us in there.
27:36And we were trying to hide every Billboard magazine that we could find.
27:40Like Prince would go, where's my Billboard?
27:41And we would be hiding it and stuff.
27:44But eventually, of course, he saw the picture.
27:46He fired us.
27:47And the night he fired us was the night we went and mixed Just Be Good.
27:52So it was kind of like a Hollywood story or whatever you want to call it.
27:56But, you know, it was the right thing to do.
27:58And later on, you know, our relationship with Prince was actually quite good.
28:02And he, I think, was very proud of us.
28:06And I think he knew, as Terry always said, he didn't fire us.
28:09He freed us, is what he did.
28:12I think he maybe in the back of his mind knew that we were going to be cool.
28:15So he pushed the babies out the nest and said, go and fly.
28:18And we were able to do that.
28:20So we thank Prince to this day for the opportunity, but also for the teaching that he did.
28:25He taught us about work ethic, which he had the best work ethic of anybody we've ever worked with.
28:30And it just showed us that we can do more than even we can imagine.
28:35So it's a good story.
28:37Blessings to you both, man.
28:38I appreciate you guys for doing this today.
28:41It's an honor and a privilege.
28:43I told Terry earlier, you are an American treasure and will go down in the history books when they go and open the books and talk about music.
28:54Not Black music, but all music.
28:58So thank you guys, man.