Il ministro degli Esteri Timčo Mucunski ha dichiarato a The Europe Conversation di Euronews che la Macedonia del Nord sta dando priorità alla partnership con gli Stati Uniti, pur continuando a perseguire l’adesione all’UE.
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00:00My guest on the Europe Conversation this week
00:10is Foreign Affairs Minister for North Macedonia
00:12Timcio Macinski
00:13he was here at NATO for the Foreign Affairs Summit
00:16he says his country is ready to join
00:18the European Union
00:19but he says if Brussels doesn't act fast
00:21Russia will fill the void
00:23Foreign Minister Timcio Macinski
00:27thank you very much for joining us
00:29on the Europe Conversation
00:30thank you very much for the opportunity
00:32to be a guest in your studio
00:34so I might start off with EU enlargement
00:36for North Macedonia
00:37I mean obviously you were one of the first
00:39of the Western Balkans to apply for EU membership
00:41over 21 years ago
00:43but it appears that
00:44well it's not appears
00:45North Macedonia is very much lagging behind
00:48for a number of reasons
00:49around rule of law
00:50and we have these historical disputes
00:52with Bulgaria
00:53and also the Greek dispute
00:55which was resolved
00:57but it appears less so now
00:59can you just talk us through this trajectory
01:00for North Macedonia
01:02so I mean without a doubt
01:04we are one of these countries
01:05that has been historically
01:06since its independence
01:08committed to EU and NATO integration
01:11we realized our goal
01:12of becoming a NATO member
01:13but the key foreign policy priority
01:16of our country
01:17that has not been realized
01:18is EU membership
01:19this year is what I call
01:22a sobering anniversary
01:23it's 20 years since we have
01:25gained candidate status
01:28in the meantime
01:29the EU has enlarged
01:31we started this process
01:33at one point
01:34even going further back
01:36to the stabilization
01:37and an association process
01:38together with Croatia
01:39Croatia is now
01:40a member of Schengen
01:42it uses the euro as a currency
01:43we still haven't opened
01:46accession negotiations
01:47of course there have been
01:49faults by governments
01:50in terms of lack of delivery
01:51on some issues
01:52without a doubt
01:53but what is also a fact
01:55is that we have been
01:56a victim of
01:57far too much
01:59bilateralization
02:00of the EU process
02:01instead of focusing
02:02on criteria
02:03on merit based issues
02:04focusing on bilateral issues
02:06that have nothing to do
02:07with the substance
02:08of a nation's path
02:10towards EU membership
02:10this is a fair point
02:12and through those countries
02:13as I mentioned there
02:14Bulgaria and Greece
02:15in particular in the Bulgarian issue
02:17because obviously these countries
02:18have a veto anyway
02:19so whether you like it or not
02:21the bilateral issues
02:22have to be resolved
02:22in some way
02:23will there be an inclusion
02:24for the Bulgarian minority
02:26within the constitution
02:28of North Macedonia?
02:29The issue is
02:29much more than
02:31the issue of inclusion
02:33of the Bulgarian minority
02:34and I'll try in a nutshell
02:35to explain this to you
02:36first of all
02:38who has the most to gain
02:39from our country
02:40becoming an EU member?
02:41Of course first
02:42it's us
02:43without a doubt
02:43but secondary
02:44it is the countries around us
02:46that are member states
02:47of the European Union
02:48and here I mean
02:49Greece and Bulgaria
02:50directly
02:51Now in these
02:53more than 30 years
02:55of an EU path
02:56we have made
02:57extremely difficult compromises
02:58as I've mentioned
02:59many times before
03:00we've changed our flag
03:02we've changed our currency
03:03we've changed our constitution
03:04several times
03:05we've even changed
03:06the name of our country
03:07all with the promise
03:08of a window of opportunity
03:10that we've been told
03:11existed
03:12if we do these changes
03:13for our path
03:15towards the European Union
03:16and thus
03:17the question
03:17and the dilemma
03:18that we pose
03:19to both EU institutions
03:21as well as
03:22the member states
03:22is
03:23will this be
03:24the final compromise?
03:25Will we know
03:26that if these
03:27constitutional amendments
03:28are made
03:29six months down the road
03:31a year down the road
03:31again there will not
03:33be a veto
03:33because of
03:35a bilateral issue?
03:36Why we pose this question?
03:38First of all
03:38to protect our own
03:39national interests
03:40to not allow issues
03:41related to language
03:42history, identity
03:44to engulf
03:45our EU accession process
03:48but also at the end
03:49of the day
03:49to protect the credibility
03:50of European enlargement
03:52in the entire region
03:53because there are
03:54malign actors out there
03:55who like to point the finger
03:56and say
03:57do you really believe
03:58that the EU is honest
04:00in its intention
04:01for enlargement?
04:02Look at what they're doing
04:03to the Macedonians.
04:04And then we also had
04:04the Prespa agreement
04:05which resolved the issue
04:06around Greece
04:07but we have heard
04:08in the past
04:09or recently
04:10some ministers
04:11refusing to use
04:12the name
04:13North Macedonia
04:14which again
04:14will create problems
04:16and confrontations
04:17with Greece.
04:17Is that an issue still?
04:19I mean
04:19if I speak personally
04:21as an individual
04:22and I remove myself
04:23from the position
04:24that I have
04:24then I will never
04:26be able to say to you
04:27that I am happy
04:28with the Prespa agreement
04:28that I believe
04:29the Prespa agreement
04:30is good
04:31or that I believe
04:31the changing
04:32of the name
04:33of a nation
04:33is fair
04:34especially in the
04:3621st century
04:36but at the end
04:37of the day
04:37as foreign minister
04:39and as a lawyer
04:40I understand
04:41that the principle
04:42of Pacta Sun Cervanda
04:44and that agreements
04:45must be kept
04:46especially in international
04:47public law
04:48is a fundamental principle
04:49and in that sense
04:52we are a nation
04:53that will respect
04:54its obligations
04:55but also a nation
04:56that expects
04:57its partners
04:58its neighbors
05:00in the region
05:00to also respect
05:01obligations
05:02in these agreements
05:03that they've made
05:04towards us.
05:05Okay
05:05because you mentioned
05:05there are Pacta Sun Cervanda
05:06agreements should be kept
05:08and you know
05:09one of the issues
05:10that the EU has
05:11with North Macedonia
05:12and joining the EU
05:13is around the rule of law
05:14independence of the judiciary
05:16various types of corruption
05:18and obviously
05:19that's hugely problematic
05:20because all EU member states
05:22will point
05:22to the deficiencies
05:23in the EU
05:24when they had
05:25the last bout
05:26of enlargement
05:26particularly countries
05:27like Hungary
05:28Slovakia
05:28and so on
05:29so where is North Macedonia
05:32with making this
05:33making greater progress
05:34on this?
05:35So this is one
05:36of the key priorities
05:37of our government
05:38our government
05:38was formed
05:39less than a year ago
05:40and it has taken
05:42very direct steps
05:44towards fighting corruption
05:46both high level corruption
05:47but also corruption
05:48that exists
05:49in mid level
05:50and low level service
05:51establishing a system
05:54of rule of law
05:55but this is not something
05:56that we can do overnight
05:57and I would once again
05:59reiterate
05:59it is also a whole
06:00of society effort
06:01it's not just about
06:03the executive delivering
06:04but it's about
06:05a cultural change
06:07that has to happen
06:08within the judicial system
06:09it's about bringing on board
06:11civil society
06:12and various different actors
06:14And how long
06:14will that take
06:15because I mean
06:15this has been on the agenda
06:16for as you mentioned
06:1720, 21 years
06:18Regrettably
06:20it's been on the agenda
06:21in rhetoric
06:22for maybe more than 30 years
06:24but substantially
06:26very little
06:27has been done
06:28This is a process
06:29where we need to establish
06:31clear time frames
06:32Many of these types
06:34of time frames
06:35going into the micro
06:36and meso aspects
06:38of these issues
06:38have already been done
06:39for us
06:39with the help
06:40of the European Union
06:41and European Union experts
06:43and then we need
06:44to start delivering
06:45because this delivery
06:47is about government
06:48doing its job
06:49but it's about
06:51creating this
06:52as I said
06:52cultural change
06:53within society
06:54which helps
06:55stimulate investment
06:57which helps
06:58stimulate entrepreneurship
06:59which puts young people
07:02in a situation
07:02where they don't want
07:04to leave the country
07:05because many young people
07:06are departing
07:07not just because of
07:08economic reasons
07:09but because of
07:10an infunctional system
07:12of governance
07:12and also hopefully
07:14put our country
07:15in a situation
07:16where young people
07:17that are living abroad
07:18want to come back
07:19invest in the country
07:20build families
07:21in the country
07:22take part in
07:24and political activities
07:25in the country
07:26I mean this is a priority
07:27of our government
07:27I want to move on
07:28to the NATO
07:29foreign ministers
07:30meeting you hear
07:31first of all
07:31can I ask you
07:32a little bit
07:32about Russian interference
07:33in North Macedonia
07:34I mean one of the reasons
07:35why enlargement
07:37needs to happen quickly
07:38they say
07:39is because the countries
07:40in the Western Balkans
07:41need to be brought
07:41into the EU
07:42away from the Russian orbit
07:43is that something
07:44that you would agree
07:45with that narrative
07:46that premise
07:46I think enlargement
07:48needs to happen
07:49for many reasons
07:50but one of these reasons
07:52from a security perspective
07:54is of course
07:55the malign Russian influence
07:57that has been existing
07:58in our region
08:00that is there
08:01I sometimes like
08:02to very openly
08:03point out
08:04that Russian influence
08:06especially in our region
08:07comes very cheap
08:08and they know
08:09how to utilize it
08:10Is it through social media
08:11can you tell us
08:11a little bit about
08:12hybrid cyber attacks
08:14what is it?
08:14It's a mix of
08:15of all of the very
08:17conventional methods
08:18if I can label them
08:19that Russia does use
08:20and that happens
08:21in our region as well
08:23And does it impact
08:24young people's viewpoints?
08:26Does it impact
08:26political parties?
08:27What is the upshot
08:30for countries
08:31like North Macedonia?
08:32So I think
08:33first of all
08:34generally
08:34our society
08:36and our political
08:37establishment
08:38going from government
08:39to opposition
08:39is extremely pro-EU
08:42and society
08:43wants to move
08:44forward
08:45towards EU membership
08:47but one of the things
08:48that happens
08:48is when there's
08:50lack of clarity
08:51coming from the European Union
08:52and the member states
08:53especially
08:54our issue
08:54is a prime example
08:55then you will have
08:57Russian influence
08:58utilizing this
09:00to say
09:00listen
09:01the EU is not honest
09:02it will never
09:04integrate
09:04the region
09:05and
09:06if there's
09:07lack of delivery
09:08credible delivery
09:09on the other side
09:10then
09:11it's a battle
09:12that the pro-EU forces
09:14in our country
09:14have to wage
09:15with these various
09:16different spheres
09:17of influence
09:17that do exist
09:18and that
09:19will be utilized
09:21I think
09:21one of the reasons
09:22why the EU
09:24needs to be
09:24very quick
09:25and expedient
09:26in its delivery
09:27to the entire region
09:28is to show
09:30that the clarity
09:31is there
09:32the strategic vision
09:33is there
09:34Can I ask you then
09:35why did your country
09:35abstain
09:36on the UN
09:37resolution
09:39condemning
09:39Russian aggression
09:40in Ukraine
09:41So our country
09:42I like to point out
09:43has three constants
09:44in its foreign policy
09:46one of them
09:46is 100% alignment
09:48with the EU's
09:49common foreign
09:49and security policy
09:51the second
09:52is our membership
09:53in NATO
09:54and the third
09:56is our strategic partnership
09:57we have a formal
09:58strategic partnership
09:59with the United States
10:01in this situation
10:02what I can say
10:03is that we have been
10:04one of the most
10:05consistent supporters
10:06of Ukraine
10:07from the NATO
10:08member states
10:09we are one of
10:10the biggest supporters
10:11per GDP per capita
10:12for Ukraine
10:13in terms of
10:14defense and security support
10:15but in this current situation
10:17because there was
10:18no alignment
10:19within the CFSP
10:21within the European Union
10:22we chose to vote
10:24aligned with our
10:25strategic partner
10:25the United States
10:27which means that
10:28we do support Ukraine
10:29and we do support
10:31the necessity
10:32for protecting Ukraine's
10:34integrity
10:34and territorial sovereignty
10:36but we also agree
10:38that there needs to be
10:39a path towards peace
10:41so even that decision
10:42was in line
10:43with the very consistent
10:45foreign policy
10:45that we've had
10:46as a nation
10:46How do you find
10:47then the negotiations
10:48so far
10:49where you
10:50it appears
10:51that very little
10:53concessions
10:53actually no concessions
10:54have been applied
10:55to Russia
10:55from the United States
10:56and several to Ukraine
10:58whether it's
10:59their energy systems
11:00whether they're
11:01critical minerals
11:01whether it's about
11:03a ceasefire
11:04how do you see
11:05the U.S. treatment
11:06of Ukraine
11:07vis-a-vis the negotiations
11:08So the perception
11:09that I have
11:10is that Ukraine
11:11is on board
11:12with this process
11:12and is actively
11:14taking part
11:14in this process
11:16and at the end
11:17of the day
11:17Ukraine is a sovereign
11:19nation that must
11:20make decisions
11:20for itself
11:21What I can say
11:22is that we
11:23as a NATO member
11:24country
11:25support the path
11:26towards peace
11:27It seems very obvious
11:29right now
11:29that the United States
11:30has a path
11:31towards peace
11:32which they believe
11:33is viable
11:34and in that sense
11:35considering that
11:36Ukraine is on board
11:37with this process
11:38we absolutely
11:39support the process
11:41that is being led
11:41by the Trump administration
11:43Secretary Rubio
11:44as well as
11:45the whole team
11:45in finding
11:46a peaceful solution
11:47as soon as possible
11:48Okay
11:49Foreign Minister
11:50Tim Chomachinsky
11:50of North Macedonia
11:52thank you very much
11:52for joining us
11:53Thank you very much
11:54for the invitation
11:54Thank you so much