With five projects and more than a decade of work, the actor and director have crafted a legacy defined by brotherhood. Their latest collaboration, Sinners, may be their most daring yet.
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00:00What do you think makes our collaboration so special?
00:20In a different life, if we would have grew up together, we would have been friends in school, you know what I'm saying?
00:23Like, we probably wouldn't have gotten a lot of work done, you know, being in the same class.
00:27Yeah, we would have gotten a lot of work done.
00:30No, no.
00:32We like to work, you know what I'm saying?
00:34I think that's a big part of it. We're both about the work, you know what I'm saying?
00:40As much as we joking and play when it's time to work, you know, we get it done.
00:48I admire that about you because you're very professional, you know what I'm saying?
00:52You set a good example on set.
00:56And I think that's been actually the thing that's been the most exciting about seeing you mature as an actor.
01:06Is watching you go from, you know, from Fruitvale when we were kids.
01:12And you were a very professional young man. You had done so much, you know what I'm saying?
01:17Like in your career already, because you started when you were young.
01:21But there is a difference between you on that set and you on this set.
01:25We just finished up on this film. I'm actually really excited for audiences to see what you've done.
01:31Appreciate that, man.
01:32And for folks who have kind of grown up watching you to see you at this new stage.
01:38That's love.
01:39I mean, I could say the same thing.
01:41I think when I first met you, you always felt and seemed so much older and more mature than I was.
01:51It was like, man, this dude got his shit together, man.
01:53He got, you know what I'm saying?
01:55It felt like, you know, you had most of the answers, you know, or you knew exactly what you were doing.
02:02And it always made me feel safe in situations where I was, you know, taking a creative swing or stepping outside my comfort zone.
02:11You always made me feel like, you know, I could do anything.
02:15And I think that type of, like, reassurance and confidence, you know, helped build my own self-confidence, you know, over the years.
02:22And, you know, I remember in Fruitvale, you know, it was a lot of uncomfortable situations, you know what I mean?
02:29And scenes and moments we were trying to capture.
02:32And you were always right there next to, you know, next to Rachel or next to me.
02:36You know, you always put yourself in a situation and do it.
02:38If you asked me to do it, you was going to do it yourself.
02:40So that always kind of set the standard for me, you know, for what I expected from a leader, from a director on set.
02:46And as I moved on to other projects and, you know, I took that work ethic and that experience with me, you know, I always compared.
02:52I was always like my like the bar that I was comparing it to was our work relationship, which is extremely unfair to a lot of people.
03:01But at the same time, it let me know the level of the level at which I wanted to work and the level that the seriousness I took the craft and what we were trying to accomplish.
03:11So I think it was also our ability to talk, talk real to one another.
03:16There was never no BS.
03:18You know, we always, you know, if we had an issue or not even an issue, something that we wanted to know and want clarity on, we could always kind of connect on that and get through it.
03:27Yeah. So that felt, that felt, I felt, yeah.
03:31How do you think I challenge you creatively on set or just in general?
03:36I'm a writer, director. So I would say a lot of times with the movies that we've done, the movie, I watched the film in my head before we we've cast it in and, you know, you know, shot it.
03:49And what I think the transition between script to screen is where the actors come into play.
04:00And I think you are very, you know, you're a gifted actor, very sharp technician, but you also have storytelling instincts.
04:11You know what I'm saying? That's a very necessary aspect to the craft of acting.
04:15Where the challenge comes into play is when actors bring things that maybe I haven't thought of as a writer.
04:24And sometimes it might be an improv line or sometimes it might be an instinct of what's not needed or instinct of what is needed.
04:35You know, and I can think of a few, a few times where, where you would have a thought about, about something being false or maybe a blocking thing where it's like, hey man, you know, what if I, what if I, what if I came here instead?
04:51You know, you know, I find you to be really, really great at that. And in those moments, it is challenging.
04:57You know what I'm saying? Because it's like, what do I do with this, with this, with this idea?
05:01What do I do with this, with this thought? What do I do with this instinct?
05:04And I think a big part of becoming better at my job, you know, is understanding, oh, this is where the good stuff is.
05:12You know what I mean? And the natural charisma that you bring. But it's also the discernment, right?
05:20You know what I'm saying? Like the discernment for what's a false moment, for what's maybe not needed, for maybe what is.
05:25You know, it's a lesson, right? That, all right, when this happens, man, you listen, open your ears up.
05:29You know what I'm saying? See what this artist is trying to say or put across.
05:37So I think that, you know, that's actually like the biggest challenge, I would say.
05:45But it's also like a welcome lesson. Like, you know, for me, it was something that I hold on to.
05:53You were one of the first directors that I worked with that really listened to what I really had to say or like the instincts in that type of way or didn't.
06:02You know, you know, this one's for you. You know what I'm saying? Have fun on this.
06:06You know what I'm saying? Or, you know, let's try it that way. OK, cool. The best idea kind of wins.
06:11You know what I'm saying? And that type of approach is not, you know, everybody's thing.
06:17Well, I mean, it's hard, man. Like, you know, when you, you know, you're often behind, you know what I'm saying?
06:22You got to get to the next thing and you might have it in your head like, oh, yeah, we got it.
06:26You know what I'm saying? But like a suggestion from an actor can feel extra sometimes.
06:31You know what I'm saying? Or when it's a deviation, you know, you had an urge to panic. Oh, no, this is not, you know what I'm saying?
06:36It's not how I saw it. It's not how I saw it.
06:38Yeah, yeah, yeah. Always in time. But, yeah, like I think that the lesson in it was that actually ends up being the goal.
06:44The good stuff.
06:45Oh, yeah. We've been gone a long time.
06:50We back now. You twins?
06:56Nah, we cousins. So, I mean, you did a lot of work on this one.
07:00I think more work than we've done together, maybe more work than you've ever done.
07:06Specifically playing two different people. Yeah. What do you hope audiences take away from that?
07:11It's interesting because I'm still processing the two of them. It usually takes it takes a minute to kind of shake a character off.
07:17And I got two of them now. Two characters we gotta shake off.
07:22It's so weird. I never had to speak about characters in this way because it's like they both live inside me.
07:26You know what I'm saying? Stack is a bit more free. He takes a lot more risk.
07:31Yeah. You know what I mean? Like I always got an idea or a scheme or could see a way things work, which I thought was a lot of fun.
07:40I never had an opportunity to play a character like that before. Yeah.
07:44And Smoke being more of the older one, more execution based, more thinking long term.
07:51You know what I'm saying? How exactly are we going to get this done? You know, like survivalists in a lot of ways.
07:56And hopefully people could take away, you know, the passion, the persistence of these two characters that, you know, no matter what, they were going to look out for one another.
08:07You know what I'm saying? And playing twins, like they kind of have hive minds, you know, and emotions on certain things.
08:14So, so, you know, I guess for any one person, if they're looking at both those characters, hopefully they see a little bit of themselves in both of them.
08:24And, you know, hopefully people take that away. And then also the love they got for the people around them, you know, and their family and their friends.
08:32Like love is a big thing in this. You know, they really care deeply about about their family and close friends.
08:39So, yeah, I hope people take a little bit of all that. I mean, the movie is so rich and the characters are so rich and so layered.
08:45It's like I want them to, you know, appreciate it all. Yeah.
08:49You know, and I think we did a great job at, you know, you did a great job of building these characters to be, you know, universal and 360 in a lot of ways.
08:58But being very specific to, you know, to themselves as well. So that's a tough thing to do.
09:04Why do you feel like it's important to protect black culture? Yeah, I know it's not an easy question to answer.
09:09No, it's not. It's a profound question. I think for me as a filmmaker, it's not something that one person should take on.
09:19Right. You know what I'm saying? Like in terms of protecting or preserving a culture, you know, everybody got their role in that.
09:27Right. You know, cinema is a beautiful art form, man. It's been around about a century.
09:33So as far as in terms of our artistic medium, it's relatively young.
09:38You know what I'm saying? Like in terms of human history and before a good part of that, a good part of those hundred years,
09:46the power of cinema has kind of been wielded against our culture.
09:50It's a long history of filmmakers of our culture that, you know, fighting against those ties that maybe marginalize our stories or just flat out ignore them, you know.
10:04And at worst, portray them in a skewed light, you know, that obscures the truth or the whole truth.
10:13You know, I'm blessed to be able to make these movies and tell these stories.
10:17And I'm just blessed to have a job, you know what I'm saying? But even more blessed that people show up, you know, when we make them.
10:25You know, that's something that I'll never want to take for granted.
10:28And while I had this opportunity, you know, it's my it's my job to portray culture as what it as what it is, you know, as what it really as what it really truly, truly is in the medium.
10:40And also, you know, what it could be.
10:44Yeah, I think you're doing a great job, you know, send the movie, you know, send the movies, you the characters and the stories that you choose to tell and what you want to put your lens on to.
10:54You know, I think, you know, it's been, you know, all very, very personal.
10:58And I know the culture in the community, you know, when they watch your movies and they films, they see a piece of themselves of what is what has been and what could be.
11:09And I think that's that's that's that's really, you know, it's not an easy thing to do.
11:15And you've been doing it, you know, to the highest level, you know, and it's been it's been great to be a part of it.
11:21Appreciate that. Yeah, I know you love all types of movies. You're a real cinephile.
11:26What was it like stepping into the horror genre this time?
11:29It was a stepping in the hardest time around. First time in this genre.
11:35That's crazy. You made a lot of movies, a lot of films, TV, you know, his first time in a horror.
11:40It's the it's the one genre I don't personally gravitate to off top.
11:45So I don't I don't personally watch a lot of horror films. So why not?
11:51Because I don't enjoy being scared. You don't like being scared. It's not one of my things.
11:57Where should I go to when you scare you? You throw the popcorn up.
12:00Yeah, it's where it's one of them. I'm not. I'm just down here. I'm just down here.
12:05Oh, that happened. That's crazy. That's crazy.
12:08When you was coming up, you hit him up in the night. Like, go on. No, no way.
12:11No way. No, that wasn't. I wasn't. My sister, my mom all day.
12:14They love it. Love it. Love all the horror movies. You know what I'm saying?
12:17But so when you when you first hit me in the back of my head, I was like, oh, this is going to be how I get over horror movies.
12:24Like this is it. If I make one, I see how it's made. You know what I'm saying? I'll be good to go.
12:28It's so much fun to make fun. It was a lot of fun.
12:32It was. It was. I think the so much fun it is because most of the time we had to stop ourselves from laughing.
12:38Yeah, it was so much fun. Yeah, it is. And like the most dire moments is the most the most fun and the most comical.
12:46Yeah, I would say the one thing that I did not look forward to.
12:52Oh, man, is the blood element. Yeah. Oh, man. Yeah.
12:57The sticky blood stuff is tough. It's tough. Yeah, that's something I didn't look forward to doing.
13:02I used to have to, like, keep from laughing at you.
13:06And you was covering it, bro, because you really didn't like it. And like, I didn't know. I didn't know you had a problem with it.
13:10I didn't know. I didn't know what it is. He put me to the side like we got a problem.
13:16And I'm like, I'm thinking I'm thinking like, you know, it's a real problem.
13:21But I'm thinking like it's like something, you know, just disastrous the way she looks.
13:24She was like, hey, Mike doesn't like having blood on him.
13:28And I'm like, I'm like, huh? She's like, no, he really doesn't like it.
13:32Like it's a problem. Oh, it's so bad. It's so bad. It's so bad.
13:36Oh, man. And there was a lot of blood in this one. There's a lot of blood in this one.
13:41Yeah, but yeah. So that's what it is. It's like the sensation of it. It's the stickiness of it.
13:47It's like it's like having like a like a sticky wet T-shirt on or just and then.
13:52Yeah. Nobody was into it. No, no, no. No, no, but you but you choose like you choose especially like it is just crazy because it dries in two seconds.
13:59You know what I'm saying? And then you got to reapply water, water on it. Oh, man.
14:04Anyway, well, I saw that. Yeah. I saw it. It was good.
14:11For you, you know, first time directing a horror, how'd you feel stepping into a genre for the first time?
14:17I loved it. Loved it. But I love I like movies in general.
14:22You know, it's something about that. It's something about the horror genre that that that just cuts deeper, maybe in any in any genre.
14:29OK, you know, and for me, my favorite experience is like when I look back,
14:37our experiences were like everybody was scared. You know what I mean? Like in a theater, like even in movies that aren't horror movies.
14:43Like if somebody said it's Jurassic Park, a horror movie, you'd be like, nah.
14:48You know, but but it's why it was like, hey, man, what scenes do you remember in Jurassic Park?
14:53It's the water rippling. For sure. The T-Rex coming out. Like, where is he?
14:57You know, the velociraptor opening the door, you know, you know, like like and and I'm from, you know, I grew up watching movies in Oakland,
15:05in Richmond, in the Bay Area. And like, you know, theaters in the 90s, red 2000s, chock full of black people.
15:12You know what I'm saying? Talking to the screen, you know what I'm saying? Horror movies is when I talk to the screen the most.
15:17You know what I'm saying? Like I don't go in there. Run girl, run.
15:22You know, you know, I'll never forget. We went to see to see Halloween, one of these Halloween movies, Century 16.
15:30We should be in there opening night, bro. It's packed and it's getting late in the movie.
15:35And and then you think Michael Myers is dead. You know what I'm saying?
15:40And then he popped back up. And this is this auntie.
15:44She's like, yeah, baby, back like I never left.
15:49And I'm like, I'm like Venice. I'm like Venice, auntie here cheering for Michael Myers.
15:55So, you know, it's a dream for a director to make something that's got that type of audience engagement,
16:02that type of electricity, has got people covering their eyes and like ready to walk out.
16:07But they want to they want to say to see what's going to happen. So and I love you, man.
16:12Like I'm not I'm not going to lie. I might not I might not ever go back.
16:18Now we had a lot of fun, man. Oh, man. A lot of laughs. A lot of laughs.
16:22Yeah, that's good. I was thinking, I said, man, what's the biggest lesson?
16:28That you as a black man have learned in entertainment industry?
16:32It's a lot of lessons. Yeah. You know, constantly learning, still learning.
16:37What's the most important when you say like for somebody looking to get looking to get into it,
16:40like looking at thinking about dedicating their life to the crowd?
16:45I would say it's never just a job.
16:49You know, I don't think it's never just like one role. It's not it's never just, oh, I'll just do this and keep it pushing.
16:57I think every choice that you make means something. Right.
17:02And right. And can potentially always mean something.
17:08You know, I think there's like a intentionality.
17:14That you need to have and and you define by what you say no to.
17:20You know, I think it's OK to say no to things, even though a lot of times we feel like we can't.
17:26Yeah. You know, it's scarce, right? Because when's the next opportunity to come around?
17:30Yeah. You know, I've auditioned for so many. I heard so many no's. I finally get a yes.
17:34Now I need to take that. Yes. Scarcity can breed desperation. I think so.
17:38And in doing so, sometimes you put yourself.
17:45On a trajectory or. You.
17:49Or view a certain style or a type of act that will limit the opportunities that you get in the future.
17:56I think that's something that I paid attention to fairly young.
18:01And. And. Try to make good decisions and, you know, and choices.
18:10Now, granted, you know. And this is how I feel, you know.
18:15What's for you is for you and what's not for you is not for you, you know, because, you know.
18:21Just because you you say you want this type of career or you want these type of roles doesn't mean that somebody is going to hire you for those type of roles and you'll get those type of jobs.
18:29Like that doesn't that one that doesn't it's not equal in that type of way. Right. In this industry.
18:34Right. So making every opportunity that you step on set count.
18:39Yeah. It means something. Yeah. And how you treat people.
18:45You know, I think I think your your reputation, your word, you know, your your your name, how people, you know, speak about you when you're not in a room.
18:55Obviously, there's a lot of that you have no control over. Right. Right. But at the same time, you know how you treat somebody as an actor, you know, from to a P.A.
19:06To, you know, you know, teamsters to hair and makeup, the crafty, you know, that that that all that all carries with you throughout your career.
19:16So I would say, you know, one of the biggest lessons also is, you know, that P.A.
19:21is not always going to be a P.A. Yeah. I'm saying, you know, that assistant and always going to be assessed.
19:26And that's a future executive. That's a future director. That's a future, you know, department head.
19:31So so you you always want to kindness. Yep. Always lead with kindness.
19:35I mean, and I'm sure, you know, you always give your flowers, you know, but but, you know.
19:41I've never seen you raise your voice and we've been in some pretty high stake situations.
19:48You know, a lot of, you know, a lot of things going on. No sleep, no rest.
19:54You know, I'm saying, you know, stressed out and you always kind of, you know, have a moment to take a breath or you pull somebody aside.
20:01You have a conversation. You always set an example that way so that that's, you know, I know a lot of people who speak about those experiences with you as well.
20:11You know, when you're not in a room and it's always at the at the at the highest level, just it just goes to a testament of who you are,
20:17how you treat people and, you know, how that comes back around. Yeah.
20:22But but as a director, you know, what was you know, and as a director, you yourself as a black man,
20:27what's the biggest lesson that I think you've learned in the entertainment industry?
20:31One of the more important it's hard for me to say right here what the biggest one is.
20:34But one of the one of the more important ones, I think, is that black people, we have a very unique relationship to art.
20:48And commerce in this film is about that in a major way.
20:52Somehow. Our country, you know, became. The. Major arbitrary contributor to global pop culture.
21:05Right. And. Though we were. Subjugated.
21:13Somehow everything that is considered cool or interesting or artistic that the country was able to pipe out.
21:22Somehow we were at the center of that. You know, even though we were in the position that we were in.
21:31Systemically. Yes. Music. You know, fine arts, fashion.
21:38Somehow we was always right to center. You know how we make art, how we consume it, what we think, what moves us, what doesn't.
21:46And that relationship is like something that's that's that's very special and has to be, I think, respected.
21:52You have to constantly be aware of it and what it and what it can mean when you when you when you step into.
22:00You know. Rooms where where a lot of power is, but maybe you aren't as represented as as you would hope.
22:09You know, part of this lesson is I ask myself, man, like, like, like, you know, why is do the right thing so good?
22:16What makes Spike, Spike? You know what I'm saying? And, you know, and understanding that.
22:24It's helpful. I mean, you talked about being exercise and discernment over what you do, what you don't do.
22:30I've heard Denzel say the exact same thing. Mm hmm.
22:33Shall we rest in peace and say the exact same thing? What they're talking about is maintaining their dignity.
22:38Mm hmm. You know, even even even though. It was scarce.
22:43And through you guys maintaining your dignity, the dignity of the audience,
22:51us as a people who want to go see these movies is maintained.
22:54Does that make sense? Tons. That connection for a black artist is much different from that connection for from a white artist.
23:02Right. Correct. Correct. Like not as much as resting on. Mm hmm.
23:06That decision, that choice, what one does or doesn't do, what thinks about that role, et cetera, et cetera.
23:11Yeah. You know, you know, it is different for us. Correct.
23:14You know, and you have to you have to operate knowing that, you know what I'm saying?