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00:00Well, let's speak now to former senior lecturer in Russian politics at Kiel University in
00:04the UK, Matthew Wyman.
00:05Thanks so much for your time.
00:08We're speaking to you, of course, on the back of that telephone call between the two presidents,
00:12but I'd like to take a deeper look at their relationship.
00:14I mean, how close do you think these two men actually are?
00:18Well, Trump clearly admires Putin very much.
00:23I think Trump would really like to have a political system which operated in the similar
00:29kind of way to Putin, where his opponents just disappear and there's no meaningful obstruction
00:37to him doing what he wants.
00:42In reverse, Putin clearly sees in Trump an opportunity to achieve what's been his main
00:50aim for – what's been the Russians' main aim, actually, for many decades, going
00:54back to the Soviet Union, which is to divide the West, to divide America from Europe.
01:02So I think, rather than a personal relationship, Putin's concentrating on the geopolitical
01:08opportunities there.
01:09You say that Trump admires Putin, but I've even heard that he'd been left waiting an
01:15hour for that telephone call.
01:17So Putin really coming across as the strongman in that relationship.
01:22But is that not somewhat surprising on the part of Donald Trump?
01:26Well, I don't – I think this is consistent with Trump's behaviour towards Putin up to
01:37this point.
01:38He seems – if we go all the way back to the famous Helsinki meeting, where Trump announced
01:48that he believed what Putin had said, rather than believing what his own intelligence services
01:54had been saying.
01:59So I don't think – it doesn't seem to me that we should be surprised by anything here.
02:07There's no real change in the relationship.
02:10Not between Trump and Putin, perhaps, but potentially between the United States and
02:13Russia.
02:14I mean, under Donald Trump, has that not done a 180?
02:19Well, there are certainly signs of change.
02:22Clearly, the relations under the Biden administration couldn't have been lower.
02:30I think at one point, Biden compared Putin's behaviour to that of Hamas.
02:40So whereas, clearly, Trump is prepared to end Russia's pariah status and seize various
02:50opportunities in that, in terms of, after an end of sanctions, reintegrating Russia
02:56into the world economy and the opportunities that that gives for American business, regardless
03:02of the consequences for Ukraine.
03:05And turning back to look at the potential motivations for Donald Trump, apart from admiring
03:11perhaps Putin, are there other elements at play?
03:14I've read that Trump's failing businesses in the past were saved by Russian businessmen.
03:19Tell us a bit more, maybe, about the other motivations.
03:21Well, this is all very mysterious.
03:26We certainly know that Trump received loans from, which originated in banks in Russia.
03:37And of course, around the time of the first Trump presidency, there was this mysterious
03:43dossier, which made all sorts of suggestions about possible compromise and possible damaging
03:51information that was held by the Kremlin.
03:55Of course, all that's rumour, and we don't actually have the hard evidence for that.
04:03But it's very clear that in these negotiations, whereas Trump has clearly been demanding enormous
04:14concessions from Ukraine and from President Zelensky, he doesn't seem to have been demanding
04:19anything from Putin so far.
04:22Indeed, it does seem curious, the difference in that.
04:27And again, it's only rumour, but a lot of questions were raised as to the influence
04:31of Russia on those US elections.
04:33Maybe does Putin have something to hold over?
04:36Trump has often been speculated about.
04:38Looking at the outcome of their relationship, do you think Russia will succeed then in maybe
04:46splitting the West further?
04:48Well, I suppose it depends on how Trump, on the reception that Trump gets to this particular
04:58development.
05:03Because clearly Putin was setting out a wholly unrealistic set of demands, according to what
05:14the Kremlin, as your report said, what the Kremlin announced after this call.
05:20So Putin demanding that all Western military assistance, all intelligence sharing with
05:27Ukraine stopping, Ukraine not being allowed to rearm itself or re-militarise.
05:35So essentially, Putin demanding that Ukraine leave itself defenceless.
05:41Now, you know, we, how, but is, Trump seemed to be yesterday portraying what he'd achieved
05:50as progress, i.e., you know, an ice hockey match between Russia and the United States
05:56and an end to attacks on the energy infrastructure in spring, by the way, when the energy, when
06:07the issue is much less important.
06:11So really, really we, if Trump now decides that the ball is back in Zelensky's court
06:26and really wants to demand more concessions from Ukraine, then who, then the mission's
06:34achieved, isn't it?
06:36Because European heads of government are clearly, absolutely not going to accept the demands
06:43that Putin's making on Ukraine.
06:46Indeed.
06:47Matthew Wyman of Kew University in the UK, thanks so much for taking time out to speak
06:51to us here on France 24.
06:52Very much appreciated.