Language has become the latest flashpoint in Indian politics and has divided North and South India, as it has in the past. It now threatens to snowball into a major political confrontation once again. Tamil Nadu Chief Minister MK Stalin has raised the flag of revolt against the Centre over the National Education Policy's three-language formula. Karnataka is also joining the debate. Here, we explore: Will language unite or divide this country?
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00:00By not implementing NEP 2020, we are depriving our students, teachers and parents the global
00:26opportunity, the pan-Indian opportunity. Rejecting a student-centered future-focused policy
00:33is really regressive. Chief Minister Stalin lashes out at the centre.
00:40BJP hits back at Stalin.
01:10Hindi a link language or divider between north and south? Big language debate.
01:20It's the latest flashpoint in Indian politics. Language has once again divided north and south
01:28India as it has in the past. Now it threatens to snowball into a major political confrontation
01:37once again. Tamil Nadu's Chief Minister M.K. Stalin has raised the flag of virtual revolt
01:44against the centre and its national education policies, free language formula, warning that
01:50it will lead to the forcible imposition of Hindi. Now other southern state chief ministers
01:56like Karnataka's Sitaram Maya are also joining in the chorus. Today on the weekend roundtable,
02:04we explore the basis for this reignited debate. Will language unite or divide this country?
02:12Is Hindi a link language or is it part of this divide? It's time for the big language debate here
02:21on our weekend roundtable. Joining us on this discussion, Pawan Kumar Verma, author, diplomat
02:27and a former MP. Dr. Usha Ram, education consultant CBSE, manager Springdale School,
02:34Pusa Road, Delhi. Narayan Lakshman, senior journalist in The Hindu based in Chennai.
02:39N.R. Ilango, MP Rajya Sabha of the DMK. Yogendra Yadav, co-founder Swaraj India.
02:46And Narayan Tirupati, State Vice President, BJP Tamil Nadu. I'm going to put question by question
02:52and explore this subject, particularly in the context of Hindi at the very outset. Is Hindi
03:00a link national language or now still a divider between North and South India? That's my first
03:08question that I want to pose. Let's go to the politicians on this. To you, Narayan Tirupati
03:13first, because the BJP is endorsing the three language formula for Tamil Nadu as well.
03:20Do you believe Hindi is a link language or is it still a divider?
03:24Hindi is an official language of India, which has been accepted by everyone in India. India is one,
03:30we need to accept this. But our Tamil language is the best and oldest language. So,
03:37we have not learnt Hindi due to various reasons. Mr. Anna Gurai, who was a member of Parliament,
03:44very clearly in Parliament said that if you learn Hindi, if you learn Tamil, I will learn Hindi.
03:50That was what actually the three language formula meant for. So, now after two national education
03:57policies, now the BJP government has brought a policy wherein you can learn an Indian language
04:03apart from the regional language and English. So, nowhere Hindi is compulsory here. So,
04:10absolutely all languages will unite India, including Hindi, including Tamil. So, the problem
04:16is that this NEP says that you take your language throughout India, pan India. That is why these
04:23people are not ready for that. The NEP clearly says that, but they are not ready for it. So,
04:28as far as I am concerned, even I am not very, you know, I have not learnt Hindi, but I can understand
04:35because I'm travelling, I'm able to understand few words. It is difficult only, there is no doubt,
04:40but over and above everything, our culture, our thinking, everything unites us. So, Hindi is an
04:47official language. Hindi is not a national language. Very clearly, we are very clear in that.
04:52And we are saying that we should learn in our regional language, mother tongue. That is what
04:59our government has said. So, you're saying learning Tamil is not, and Hindi are not mutually
05:05exclusive. Tamil remains your mother tongue. The focus will be on Tamil, but because Hindi is the
05:11official language of the country, there is no harm in learning Hindi as well. Am I correct?
05:16Yes, there is no harm in learning any language. Okay. That's what I'm saying. There is no harm
05:21in learning any language. That is what NEP says. I'll come to the any language bit,
05:27but N.R. Ilango at the very outset, MP, Rajya Sabha, DMK, why are you all so angry about the
05:34three-language formula? The fact is that it doesn't stop you from Tamil as your first language, English
05:43as your second, and then any other language. The manner in which MK Stalin is now attacking Hindi,
05:49it almost seems as if Hindi is a foreign language for you. It is a foreign language for us. I'm
05:55saying, when I learn English, which is a language where I can use worldwide, and as I'm not there,
06:03when I can communicate to the world through English, why should I have a special language
06:09to communicate with Indians? Number one. Number two, Mr. Narayan Tripathi said that NEP is not
06:17imposing three-language formula, but NEP does impose three-language formula. I never said that.
06:25No, no, no. He did not. Let me correct him. He said NEP does not impose Hindi. It's a three-language,
06:31but it can be, it doesn't necessarily mean that Hindi has to be imposed through the three-language
06:36formula. I asked you a question. Do you believe Hindi is a linked language or is it a dividing
06:41factor? Give me a straight answer. As long as you are imposing it on us, it is a dividing formula.
06:47How is it being imposed? You can learn Telugu as your third language. You can learn Malayalam
06:53as your third language. The option is being given, as the Home Minister says, that you have,
06:58as Mr. Dharmendra Pradhan says, Honorable Minister says, we have to learn Hindi.
07:03No, no, no. He said so. You have to accept three-language formula. You have to learn Hindi.
07:11I will come back and play out exactly what Dharmendra Pradhan said, but just hold on,
07:18Yogendra Yadav is also joining us. Yogendra Yadav, in a message that you have posted on
07:23social media today, you have commented on Stalin's statements on the three-language
07:29policy and said, disappointed to read this from a senior leader like you.
07:33I am with you and the people of Tamil Nadu in opposing the partisan governor withholding of
07:38central grants and imposition of any language, but opposition to central government must not
07:44become opposition to Hindi. Do you believe that this language debate is by its very nature now
07:50becoming more and more divisive, raking up some of the old antagonisms between North and South?
08:00Thanks for noticing, Rajdeep. I must begin by underlining that this is a friendly disagreement.
08:06Friendly because I agree with the basics of what Tamil Nadu CM Kiru Stalin has said. I agree
08:13that the central government is violating the federal principles and the conduct of the
08:19governor is so completely anti-constitution. I agree that central government cannot, must not
08:27withhold funds because Tamil Nadu government happens to disagree with its educational language
08:31policy. And number three, fundamentally, I agree that language policy has to be through consensus.
08:38I'm against Hindi imposition. So what's my disagreement? My disagreement is, A, because
08:46as a senior political leader, chief minister of a state and someone who represents such a
08:52deep linguistic tradition as Tamil, one of our oldest languages, him attacking another language
08:59doesn't look good. It's not good politics. Tomorrow, if someone from Uttar Pradesh were
09:04to do it about Tamil, I would oppose it the same way. Two, because what he says is actually not
09:10quite accurate. It is true that Hindi language, what we call Hindi today, has been built by
09:18subsuming large number of languages which we today call dialects. But this is exactly the same with
09:25all other standard languages in India today. This is true with Bengali. This is true of Marathi.
09:30I'm not scholar of Tamil, but I would not be surprised if we discover something similar in
09:34the past of Tamil. This is how standard languages have evolved. So we need to support these so-called
09:40dialects because these are languages. But to single out Hindi is simply incorrect. And finally, and
09:47above all, I oppose, I disagree with what Mr. Stalin has said, because framing this whole thing
09:56of Indian languages versus Hindi. No, sir, that's not the reality of this country. The reality of
10:02this country is that all Indian languages, Hindi and Tamil included, need to be saved from the
10:10hegemony of English language. Why don't we talk about it? So, yes, I fear that it becomes a
10:18question of Hindi or anti-Hindi. Unfortunately, the entire language politics of this country
10:24get reduced in two binaries. On the one hand, people who say Hindi is a national language,
10:29which it is not. This is nowhere in the constitution. And on the other hand, this Hindi
10:33bashing, we have to have a more careful, constructive way of promoting multilingualism in this country.
10:41You know, the fact is, as I said, all of this has been set up by the national education policy and
10:46its three language formula. Since we are talking about is Hindi being imposed, I just want to play
10:52for a moment what Dharmendra Pradhan, the HRD minister says, and then I'll get my other panelists
10:56to respond to that. Is the government talking of imposing Hindi, making it mandatory as part of the
11:02three language formula across government schools? Listen in. What is wrong if a student in Tamil
11:09Nadu will learn multilingual, come to the multilingual aspect in his study. It can be
11:15Tamil, it can be English, it can be a other Indian language. There is no imposition of any Hindi or
11:21any language on them. Some friends in Tamil Nadu are doing politics, but certainly, government of
11:27India is committed to implement NEP and there are certain conditions with NEP. You know, there you
11:34have it, Mr. N. R. Elango, the minister is making it clear. You can learn any language. But then NEP
11:41says that all efforts will be taken that in non-Hindi speaking states, Hindi will be developed.
11:48I'll read the particular portion, that's in Roman, page number 13, in the introduction
11:56part of NEP itself. It says that, just a second, I'll take that. While you look at that page,
12:04let me just go to Narayan Lakshman. Narayan Lakshman, how did you understand this? Senior
12:09journalist there of the Hindu, how did you understand it? Is it imposition of Hindi as Mr.
12:14Elango is suggesting or is he fear mongering? I think the key point here is the distinction
12:22between what is on paper and what happens in reality, empirical reality. 32 states have
12:30chosen Hindi as their third language and I think about eight have chosen Sanskrit as their third
12:36language. Total of, you know, around 40, 16 states have chosen Sanskrit. 16. Yeah, 16. So
12:44out of this, there are only 19 states that are actually purely Hindi speaking, Hindi dominant
12:50states. So the question that this begs is, even if you are on paper or in theory saying,
12:58we will not insist that Hindi is the third language. It could, hypothetically in the case
13:02of Tamil Nadu, it could be Malayalam or Telugu. What happens in reality? And, you know, what are
13:08the forces that end up deciding what that language is? And then, I mean, we'll come to this probably
13:14later in your discussion. How does this link to the actual politics on the ground in this state?
13:19It's not just a pure coincidence that Tamil Nadu is the state which has picked up this issue for
13:24a fierce debate. I'll come to the politics in a moment, but you're saying data clearly shows
13:29that most states now choose Hindi. Now, many will say that's because learning Hindi is advantageous,
13:36particularly in large swathes of this country. Dr. Usha Ram, you are an educational consultant
13:41with the CBSE. Is the idea to spread the use of Hindi and Sanskrit or is it to give space to all
13:47our languages in a multilingual, leave it to the children and their parents to decide and the school
13:53managements to decide? Is the CBSE indirectly imposing Hindi as Tamil Nadu is suggesting?
14:01No, no, no, no, no, sir. No, Raj, there's nothing. See, I'm going by NEP, which gives full freedom.
14:09NEP is perfectly good document, which is helping us as an educationist for NCF also. National
14:16curriculum framework, we are able to manage keeping NEP in mind and NEP doesn't at no cost
14:22has said that, you know, these are the compulsory languages. There's a three languages. So it could
14:27be a mother tongue, regional language, any third to India. But the fact that the fact, ma'am,
14:33ma'am, ma'am, no, no. But as Narayan Lakshman says, there's a difference between theory and practice.
14:38No school in Uttar Pradesh or Bihar is going to ask their children to learn a southern language.
14:43On the other hand, southern schools, according to the DMK and other parties are being pushed.
14:48Make them learn Hindi. Why not?
14:53No, no, no. See, it is up to the states to decide. NEP has said that I'll only keep that because I
14:59don't want to get into any kind of politics. I'm very clear because as an educationist,
15:04when I read NEP, a wonderful document, which really prepares us to go for NCF,
15:10that is National Curriculum Framework, so that we are able to implement the education system,
15:14which has to be uniform all over the country, all over the country, whether we are talking
15:19about the inputs and outputs, you know, that it is very, very clear. So we are going by that.
15:25And if you look at it from the three languages, it has not said anything that you have to have
15:29Hindi and you don't. That is up to you to decide. You want Hindi, you don't want Hindi. That's up
15:34to you. Who tells you, who forces you? Nobody's forcing you. NEP doesn't tell you that. NEP has
15:40not said that NCF. Okay, you're saying there's nothing forcible. Let me for a moment turn to
15:45therefore Pawan Verma. Pawan Verma is. See, I'm going by the, see. You're going by the document.
15:52You're going purely by the document. I'm going by the document, which says, yes, yes. I just
15:57want to bring in Pawan Verma on that first big question. Is it a link language Hindi today? Is
16:02it a bridge builder or does it divide? There's been a history, particularly in Tamil Nadu,
16:06going back to the fifties and the sixties, where Hindi was seen as an imposition by Delhi.
16:12We are now in 2025. Surely by now, organically Hindi is spreading. Today, actually, I've been
16:19to Chennai to places where people, you know, people will perfectly understand Hindi. They
16:24may not speak it, all of them, but they understand it. Should we be spreading Hindi? Is it a link
16:29language or is it a divider? Thank you, Rajdeep. No, I don't believe it is a divider, nor do I
16:42believe it is as yet a link language, but you must understand that we are seeing a political battle
16:51being played out on the basis of a perception that a language which is relatively alien to the
17:00South is being imposed. And there is an empirical historical background to this political battle.
17:09You will recall that the anti-Hindi agitations in Tamil Nadu and other states in the South
17:16go back to the 1960s. Now, the perception is, even if it is not the policy,
17:25that there is an attempt to somehow underplay what is also an equally ancient language,
17:35which is Tamil, and of course, the other South Indian languages, by the imposition of Hindi,
17:42and the reasons for it are entirely different to the linguistic debate. If you give me two minutes,
17:48I'll try to explain this to you. You see, first of all, in the South, there is a perception
17:54that there is a preponderance of Hindi-speaking leaders running the country.
18:01Then there is the looming delimitation exercise, which worries the South.
18:06Then there is the fact that in the South, there are many states ruled by opposition governments,
18:13which have been targeted, including by transparently hostile governors. Given this fact,
18:21and of course, the agencies that the central government has often used against opposition
18:27states in the South. You will recall, Rajdeep, that the DMK leadership was attacked for making
18:36what appeared to be anti-Sanatan Dharm remarks by a Hindi-speaking leadership in the North,
18:46when perhaps Tamil Nadu and the South has been the greatest repository and crucible of Hinduism.
18:53Anyone who traveled in the South can know that. Now, with this entire background,
18:58you have to understand that India has retained its unity, not by aggressive inflexibility,
19:07but enlightened compromise. And if that is the case, I believe the central government's attempts,
19:15even if perceived in the South to be akin to imposition, must be played down. In fact,
19:22what may surprise you is that in spite of this perception, the largest number,
19:28and please have this fact checked, the largest number of non-governmental centers teaching Hindi
19:37are in Tamil Nadu. Gradually, Hindi is becoming a national language. It may be in the form of
19:44English, but equally the perception in the South is that while we are perforce learning Hindi,
19:51who is learning Tamil in the North? Who is learning Telugu or Malayalam in the North?
19:56So, I think that the government's policies need to be nuanced, need to be played in an
20:05enlightened way, and not in a manner which exacerbates tension, because we are sitting
20:10on a time bomb if we do not deal with Southern sensitivities with regard not only to Hindi,
20:17but several other issues. You know, you raised a lovely word there, Mr. Verma,
20:22enlightened compromise. How do we achieve an enlightened compromise when it comes to languages,
20:28especially given the gaping trust deficit? And I'll come to that later in the politics,
20:32the trust deficit between some of the Southern states that our opposition ruled and a center
20:37which is heavily dominated by the BJP, the Bharatiya Janata Party that many believe started
20:43with Hindi, Hindu, Hindustan politics. I just want to give a little pivot and a twist to the
20:49question, which is quite simply this. Is the real battle between English and the regional languages?
20:56Is English actually, as Yogendra Yadav just now suggested, the hegemonical language? You know,
21:02Yogendra Yadav, I didn't interrupt you when you spoke that. You said the real battle is
21:06Bhashas versus the hegemony of English. You even seem to post that this is the real linguistic
21:12apartheid, linguistic apartheid in India. What do you mean by that? Many think, I do too,
21:17that English is actually a great leveler. It's the one aspirational language that helps us fare
21:22well in the world. It's a global language, a language of opportunity. Are we going to now
21:27make the debate English versus regional languages? Just as I would not want people to attack Hindi
21:38as a language, I would not attack English as a language. What I'm opposing, I would promote,
21:44I would want to learn English. I'm speaking to you in that language. And I would want every child in
21:50this country to be able to learn English, to be able to use it and access all the world language
21:57and knowledge that you spoke about. My problem is English displacing Indian languages. My problem is
22:06in English becoming a medium of instruction for which there is no pedagogical evidence to support
22:13that. Every pedagogue, everyone who works on language, everyone who works on brain, everyone
22:19who works on multilingualism tells us that children should be educated in their mother tongue. So yes,
22:26children in Tamil Nadu must be taught in Tamil. Who is displacing Indian languages? It is not Hindi.
22:35Take Tamil. How many students studied in Tamil medium, say 30 years ago, and how many students
22:43study in Tamil medium today? Much less. Is it because they are now studying in Hindi medium?
22:49No, sir. It is because English and the dominance of English. So I do not oppose English language.
22:56In fact, it's a great window to us for world literature. What I oppose is a English displacing
23:04Indian languages and number two, this obnoxious practice of English medium education, mostly in
23:11schools where the student doesn't know English, parents do not know English and even the teachers
23:18don't know English. Contentious what you've just said, but let's try and develop that. Are regional
23:23languages losing out to Hindi or English? My question is, are they losing out to Hindi or are
23:29they losing out to English? Mr. Hilango, you know, the DMK seems to believe that Tamil will
23:34lose out to Hindi. The truth of the matter is a lot of young people in Tamil Nadu go to private
23:40schools where they learn English. If anything, Tamil Nadu is losing, Tamil is losing out to
23:45English. Yogendra Yadav has a point. Why make Hindi the bogey? It is not Tamil is losing to English.
23:53The opportunities worldwide is available in English. See, especially the higher education
24:02like engineering and medical field, we don't have much of Tamil language books and even in Hindi,
24:09we don't have good books for medical and engineering students. So the parents want to
24:16teach it. Parents want their children to learn in English. English is the real,
24:21is the language to which Tamil is losing out to. It's not the language. It is the specialization
24:27of the language to go to the better education, namely the professional courses. In fact,
24:34that's why they choose English, number one. Number two, any parent who is sending his child
24:40in Tamil Nadu to an English medium will insist that child should learn Tamil and proficiency in
24:49Tamil will be a pride of every parent. Okay, Narayan Tirupathi, do you agree with that?
24:56Do you believe that, you know, where is Tamil losing out? Do you believe in the first instance,
25:03Tamil or any regional language today is losing out either to Hindi or English? I can learn all
25:09three. I went to a school where the medium of instruction was English. I went to a school where
25:14the medium of instruction was English. I learned Hindi right up to class 10 and I learned Marathi
25:20up to class 8. I was trilingual as a result. I learned only one thing. Tamil Nadu's culture
25:32is way back 3000 years or 2000 years ago. We had trade with every part of the world.
25:39We had everybody used to come here. We had trade with everybody. Never ever any language
25:46sidelined Tamil, correct? So, why do you fear it today? Why are you fearing it today if it hasn't
25:54happened for 3000 years? You are playing on fear.
26:05I just have three issues. Number one is that your main question was whether it is Hindi or English.
26:12See, I'm telling you, in the last say around 10-15 years, after 2009, mark it after 2009,
26:19when DMK rule was there, there was only around 500 CBSE schools in Tamil Nadu whereas now it is
26:251625 as on December 2024. Why? See, this is because of the DMK's very bad education policy
26:35and Tamil Nadu is the third highest CBSE schools which teaches third language. After Delhi and
26:43Haryana, Tamil Nadu is the third highest CBSE schools what we have and that is because of
26:48DMK's bad policy. Now, the two-language policy, they say it is...
26:54No, let him finish. Let him finish.
26:56I will definitely tell you, sir. See, now we have to understand this that because of DMK's
27:04Samachir Kalvi, the parents opted to go in for CBSE schools and the government also gave no
27:13objection to certificate. That is the reason CBSE schools came like this and as far as the
27:19higher education is concerned, Mr. Raina Relango was telling my friend, he was telling that it is
27:24all related to the professionals. No. Even in Karnataka, there are colleges where the learning
27:30language will be taught in Kannada, even in Kerala. But in Tamil Nadu, there is not even a single
27:37student learns through Tamil. Please understand. No. No, yes, sir. 100% yes. No, no, no. See,
27:45you tell me any college which teaches in Tamil language. No, it is not. See, the policy...
27:50No, but that is true. One minute. One minute, sir. Sir, Narayan Tirupathi, that is true of
27:55large parts of the country. As you travel just a minute, sir. Sir, as you travel across this
28:00country, you are finding English is becoming... Just a minute. English is becoming... Just a
28:05minute, sir. English is becoming an aspirational language across the board. Narayan Lakshman,
28:09do you agree with that? That, you know, this battle is being made out to be... One minute, sir.
28:13The battle is being made out to be Hindi versus Tamil or Hindi versus regional languages.
28:18Is the real losing out even in the Hindi heartland? Actually, Hindi gradually is losing
28:23to parents who want their children to learn in English, including politicians who espouse Hindi.
28:29Rajdeep, let me finish. No, no. Let Narayan finish. I'll come back to you, Mr. Tirupathi.
28:35Yeah, I think you've touched on... Rajdeep, can I come in on this?
28:39I'll let you come after Narayan Lakshman. Please, Mr. Lakshman, go ahead.
28:43Yes, I was just saying you have touched upon a very important dimension, which is that this
28:49language debate very much relates to livelihoods and jobs and the skills that it takes to get those
28:55jobs. So let's also look at this whole question through that lens. To answer your question,
29:02I don't think Hindi is being displaced at all. I think Hindi is being propped up.
29:07And there are very, very strong, you know, proponents of Hindi across the northern belt
29:12in the political circles. That's never going to go away. You don't have that level of
29:17support for any of the other languages in the South, for example. I also include Bengali,
29:22West Bengal, because every language is there, contained within the boundaries of a state,
29:26more or less. The dominant speakers of that language are more or less within...
29:30they don't have the voice today, especially in today's politics, to kind of push their voice up
29:37to the level where Hindi is. Now, the bigger question there is, how are the Hindi-speaking
29:44states faring economically? Why are we concerned about the delimitation exercise? It is because
29:49there's also economic disparity, right? So is Hindi actually proving to be a language which
29:54leads to economic success, job success? And therein, you can easily answer the question
30:00about English as well. English, whether you like it or not, whether you call it names and you say
30:04it's a Western, it gives you Western ideas, it's corrupting Indian culture, you can go however far
30:09you wish. It is, unfortunately or fortunately, the language which is linking largest parts of
30:15the world in terms of economics, in terms of jobs, in terms of investments. Why do you have Indian
30:20community emigrating abroad and being so successful as a diaspora community? It's
30:25because of this. So I think we shouldn't leave out the economic side of it. When we look at...
30:30That's a very interesting point you make. And we look at that decline of the Hindi heartland
30:35in a moment. But someone who comes in from the Hindi heartland, go ahead.
30:44Rajiv, I wrote a book some time ago called Becoming Indian, which is largely devoted to
30:49the question you raised, whether English has become the real problem, whether it's
30:54Hindi or it's Tamil. It's a very important question. First of all, English has a utility
31:00because languages at one level are a means of communication. However, I fully agree with
31:07Yogendra Yadav when he says that our preference for English as against our mother tongues have
31:16impoverished our mother tongues and led our young adrift from their own cultural moorings.
31:24I'll tell you, I'll tell you people today, if asked a question in their own language,
31:31will reply in English just because they don't want to have the label of inferiority that they
31:36cannot speak English. You know, Atal Bihari's bhai, Achbachbhai once quipped that it is a
31:42myth that the British left India as a result of the freedom struggle.
31:46They left because they could not bear anymore the mutilation of the English language.
31:52Badly spoken English or shoddily spoken English cannot become the mother tongue of a country
31:59which is so linguistically rich as India. So, there is a question that is important here.
32:07The real issue before us is that this process of assimilation between languages across the
32:14barriers of the North and South was happening on its own. India was becoming from a salad bowl
32:21into a melting pot on its own. More people were learning to speak a language in which they could
32:28communicate other than English on its own. The real danger to the language issue is the
32:35evangelists, the Hindi evangelists in the North and the evangelists of languages in the South
32:44who are using language for a political reason. And therefore, I plead to them to please do not
32:52make language an issue. I'll come to you Dr. Usha Ram in a moment, but let me make that the key
32:59question to the two politicians for a moment. Both of the DMK and the BJP, is language being
33:03used as a political weapon? Mr. Ilango, the charge is you all want to emotionalize the issue. There
33:08are elections in Tamil Nadu next year. That's why you've raked up the language bogey. This is
33:14classic fear-mongering. It is classic political fear-mongering. Most Indians organically are
33:21learning more and more languages. I migrate from one part of India to the other. I learned the
33:26language of that state. I've come from Maharashtra to Delhi 30 years ago. I've learned Hindi.
33:33I'll go by points by point by point. Number one, we are not against any language,
33:39including Hindi. We respect every language. As we respect our language, we respect every language,
33:46number one. Number two, what Mr. Yogendra Yadav said, a friendly advice to our CM,
33:53that we don't say Hindi has assumed all other languages in a bad sense. We said,
34:01if this is allowed, this will happen to our language as well. That's one thing.
34:07Three, the Hindi is imposed on us because as you played part of the education minister's
34:17speech, he says, unless you agree on NEP, we will not release your share. This is happening
34:26not now. This is happening for about three, four months, six months. What else we can assume from
34:31that? You won't release our share. So it is creating a political confrontation, the potential
34:39political confrontation. Mr. Tirupati, I'll get to you in a moment. But since Yogendra Yadav was
34:50mentioned there by Mr. Ilango, Mr. Stalin says he's ready to fight a language war if needed.
34:56That's the kind of messaging. What would your message to him be at this moment,
35:01given the sensitivities involved in language? We've seen language wars in the past that have
35:06resulted in violence. Hopefully we've gone beyond that. But what would your message be to MK Stalin
35:11Yogendra Yadav? I would say to Tiru Stalin, welcome. And yes, who better candidate to
35:22fight a language war than Tamil, one of the oldest, one of the richest languages of this country.
35:29But don't fight it against wrong enemies. Hindi is not your enemy. Other Indian languages are not
35:34your enemy. Some overenthusiastic persons may try to, you know, disproject Hindi. They might try to
35:42impose Hindi. That's not a serious stuff. The real thing that all of us in the Tamil, Bangla,
35:49Assamese, all of us put together have to understand and take on is the hegemony of English. And that
35:56will not be taken on simply by opposing English. We have to cultivate and develop Indian languages
36:03in a way so that it reaches the same level that English has, the manner in which the Japanese
36:10did it, the manner in which the Koreans did it, the manner in which the Chinese did it.
36:14That is the kind of thing we need to do. Welcome to language war, but a language war of a constructive
36:20kind. Mr. Narayanan Tirupathi, you've been wanting to jump in. Please jump in. You've heard,
36:28is this a war now? Is this a war about politics, about winning the elections?
36:32No. Just give me two minutes.
36:34No, Mr. Elango, let him speak now.
36:37Just give me two minutes.
36:39Just allow me to talk.
36:42Number one, see, the present issue is not the policy of Tamil Nadu for Tamil people.
36:49The DMK government says it is the policy of Tamil Nadu, whereas 50% of the students are learning
36:54a third language. So all are Tamils. Even CBSE students are Tamils. So you cannot say, you know,
36:59it is a policy of Tamil Nadu. It is a policy to suppress the poor rural government students.
37:06Number two, see, this NEP gives a very big scope for taking Tamil throughout the pan-India,
37:14throughout India. Bharathiyar once said,
37:20Tamil should go to the entire world. So now what we say, the NEP says that Tamil,
37:26it has given an opportunity to take Tamil to all the states. That is what Dr. Usha was saying.
37:30Mr. Tirupathi, please tell me. Mr. Tirupathi, one minute. No, no, Mr. Tirupathi, answer this.
37:36Your party is often seen as a party of the Hindi heartland. Are BJP-ruled governments,
37:42for example, in Uttar Pradesh or Rajasthan, going to promote any southern language? Be honest.
37:47That's the reality. Nobody is going to teach Tamil, Telugu, and Hindi there.
37:52Mr. Rajdeep, please understand. Please read NEP fully. That is what I said.
37:57There is an opportunity. That's the theory. Practice. What's the practice?
38:00Please, sir, practice what we practice. You know, we have to practice. We have to start new.
38:04Why don't we start fresh? We have to do it. That is what NEP says.
38:08Can you give me an assurance that any BJP-ruled state will promote a southern language?
38:12Any Hindi heartland state will promote a southern language?
38:16In Haryana, Tamil was the second language. In Maharashtra, there were a lot of Tamil schools.
38:23See, don't tell that it is not there. Only you should have the will. Number three, number three.
38:27Mr. Yogendra Yadav, I saw his tweet today, and I think Mr. Yogendra Yadav forgot to say one thing.
38:33See, these 52 languages, you know, these non-scheduled languages, this BJP government,
38:40this BJP government under Narendra Modi ji's leadership has given 52 primers.
38:45We have taken, you know, following these languages, non-scheduled languages.
38:50And again, I'm telling you, he was asking whether there are books in America.
38:54Yes, Mr. Amit Shah had very clearly said that all states should start writing books on medicines
39:03and engineering. What is wrong in it? What is wrong in it? There is nothing wrong. You know it.
39:07Sir, this is all in principle. It's not happening in practice. But just a minute,
39:11which brings me, just a minute, sir. Sir, I've heard you.
39:14Sir, last one thing. He was talking about funds. PM Shree and Samagra Siksha,
39:19these people have misused these funds for the purpose not given to them. I'm telling you,
39:25I'm very categorically I'm telling you. That is why, I'm saying also, they also accepted
39:31Mr. Tirupati, I've heard you. Sir, I've heard you. Sir, I've heard you. Let's, let's therefore
39:36again pivot and ask Usha Ram the question that I want to make my next question.
39:40Should the focus be on education, improving the quality of education
39:45instead of just focusing on which language will be spoken?
39:48Dr. Usha Ram, the concern is many schools today and an ESA report suggested that
39:53many students, even in class six, seven, eight, don't know proper division.
39:57Those are the real issues, surely. Improve the quality of education
40:01instead of getting into this language war. Do you agree?
40:07I fully agree. See, we are, that's the reason we are talking about, in our NCA,
40:12we are only talking about how much we are giving to the children,
40:15what we are able to take out from them. So, the language is all right. See, it's a need-based.
40:20For example, there are children who, people who go from north to south,
40:25they learn Tamil and Malayalam and they learn that because it's need.
40:28And when they come from there to this side, they learn Hindi.
40:31So, I, for my, to my knowledge, language is only a need-based subject.
40:38Mainly, we should go for the other subjects which are very, very important.
40:41And as you said, the children are not even aware of all that.
40:44And that, at least, NCF will make it very clear because we are asking for all those details.
40:49The child must know this much up to class two, up to class five.
40:53No, language is not a need-based subject.
40:55Now, it's clear. It's given.
40:58OK. Let me bring in Pawan Barba. Pawan Barba, you want to make a quick point.
41:06No, no. First, two quick points.
41:11First of all, I do not see language as only a need-based requirement.
41:17Language is a window to your culture, to your folk tales, to your history,
41:22to the roots of your background, the poetry, the whole.
41:28I mean, language cannot be just a means of communication.
41:31So, therefore, the need to preserve languages are linked to the need to preserve cultures.
41:37If subcultures feel threatened by the hegemony of another kind of culture,
41:44which are all part of one civilizational unity, which is India, which I strongly believe.
41:49Bharatvarsh is one.
41:50But within that, there are differences.
41:52If you don't treat them with sensitivity,
41:55or if there is a perception that one kind of culture is being imposed on the other,
42:00which is equally ancient and authentic, that's where the problem arises.
42:05No, but can policies, Mr. Verma, be made on perceptions?
42:08No, no, no. But, Mr. Verma, can policies on education be made on the basis of perception?
42:18No, therefore, therefore, the answer to your question is,
42:21there is a problem also in center-state relations, Rajdeep.
42:25Exactly.
42:26The Samagra Shiksha Abhiyan Funds, if they are not given to certain states in time,
42:34and to certain states well in time,
42:37where there is a perception that states not speaking a particular language,
42:42or proponents of another.
42:43No, no, never said.
42:44Then you are playing with the federal structure of this country.
42:49No, no, no, no, no, no.
42:50There have been allegations of funds being withheld.
42:54Okay, one minute, one minute.
42:56You know, Narayan Tirupati, it's boiling down to a trust deficit.
43:00No, no, no, no, sir.
43:01No, no, one minute, sir.
43:02The BJP is seen as a dominant party at the center,
43:04imposing itself on the South, where you don't have the same kind of presence.
43:08That's creating a trust deficit.
43:10There's a sense that that is why many of these states are saying,
43:13we are not getting adequate financial resources.
43:16We are losing out, even though we are economically progressive.
43:19Now they're raising again the language issue.
43:21There's a trust deficit between Delhi and the southern states,
43:24and it's affecting our federal character.
43:27Delimitation is also being raised.
43:28Do you agree that's the problem?
43:30Amit Shah and Narendra Modi need to bridge the trust deficit first, Mr. Tirupati.
43:34See, Mr. Rajdeep, I'm telling you, the Samagra Shiksha, very, very clear.
43:39The DMK government, through the Chief Secretary of Tamil Nadu,
43:42accepted that they will sign.
43:44See, all records have been in the public, okay.
43:47It's in the public domain.
43:48And they said that we will accept it.
43:51And they wanted the release of funds also.
43:54Again, I'm telling you, this Samagra Shiksha was meant for,
43:58some funds from Samagra Shiksha was meant for computer,
44:02setting up of computer labs, which this government did not do in government schools.
44:06And this Samagra Shiksha, some funds meant for appointing computer teachers.
44:10They have not done it.
44:12More than thousands and thousands of computer teachers are actually fasting in Tamil Nadu.
44:16They are fighting with the Tamil Nadu state.
44:18See, you misuse the funds, you use it for some other reason.
44:21Mr. Elango, okay, you made the point.
44:24Mr. Tirupati, you made the point.
44:25But Mr. Elango, is this about a trust deficit between Chennai and Delhi,
44:30or between the southern states in Delhi?
44:31You're using every day a new issue.
44:33One day it's delimitation.
44:35One day you say that you're being financially strapped by the center.
44:38Now you're saying language is being imposed on us.
44:40This is all an attempt to divide between Delhi and Chennai.
44:43Mr. Tirupati, one minute.
44:45Let Mr. Elango respond now.
44:47No, no, no, Mr. Tirupati, let him.
44:49No, no, let Mr. Elango answer for this also.
44:51Mr. Elango, Jithni Aapadhi Uthanahak,
44:54this was told by Mr. Rahul Gandhi on 5th October 2023.
44:59It is Rahul Gandhi and your Indy alliance,
45:01which said that the proportionate to the population right should be given.
45:06And it was Mr. Modi who said that if this is implemented,
45:11the south will lose 100 seats.
45:13Not Mr. Amit Shah or Modi.
45:15It is only Rahul Gandhi.
45:16Let Mr. Elango respond now.
45:18Mr. Elango, are you trying to prey on irrational fears
45:21between Delhi and the southern states?
45:23Are you effectively saying you are not being given the autonomy you want?
45:27I don't see or we don't see all these issues are independent.
45:33All are connected.
45:34The delimitation, the imposition of Indy, non-releasing of funds,
45:41what are due to us, are all one connected political issue being done by BJP.
45:47They want to suppress the southern states.
45:50Mr. Tirupati, Narayan Tirupati says that
45:53we have not implemented some of the policies in the Samakkara Shiksha.
45:57But once he becomes a minister, he can say that.
46:01As of today, no such allegation has been made by the union government.
46:06They say you have not implemented NEP, three-language policy.
46:10We will not release the fund.
46:12That's the only reason they are giving.
46:14So what Mr. Tirupati says is wrong.
46:16Sir, that is for PMC, sir, not for Samakkara Shiksha.
46:19Please understand.
46:20Narayan Lakshman, do you see a brewing conflict between Chennai and Delhi
46:25or indeed between the southern states and the northern states,
46:28whether it's delimitation, which could happen after the 2026 census,
46:33whether it's now the language formula, whether it's potentially 16th Finance Commission,
46:37how much of monies will be given to the southern states?
46:40Are we seeing opposition-dominated South versus BJP-dominated North binary being created?
46:47Absolutely.
46:47As they say in literature, never the twain shall meet because
46:51they are completely at loggerheads in terms of their vision for India,
46:57how to govern India and what India's culture, identity and politics should be all about.
47:04There is one party, the BJP does dominate the North and it has a certain view.
47:10I mean, let's not beat around the bush.
47:12It drives Hindutva politics and they have very clear tenets that they are pushing.
47:16I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but that is their view.
47:19Similarly, there is no single party as such that represents the South.
47:22That's an important point.
47:24As I mentioned this earlier too, the fragmentation aspect,
47:27which impacts the language issue, also impacts the politics.
47:30So why did everybody, you know, kind of critique the India grouping to say,
47:37you know, it'll never hold together when it was first announced?
47:40The reason is, while they all have strong, these are all strong regional leaders
47:44and they come from parties with a phenomenal track record of governance in their own states,
47:49in their own styles, each of them had a unique way of governing.
47:53They only represent that particular state.
47:55So they're not able to speak with a single voice
47:58and you can look at it through the lens of language as well.
48:00So it is unfortunately a massive chasm,
48:04which is going to be very difficult to bridge for generations to come.
48:08Which leads me to my final question.
48:10Is multilingualism the way forward?
48:13Ultimately, we are a country with so many languages.
48:16Should we therefore be encouraging students to speak in as many languages as they can?
48:23Yogendra Yadavji, many believe that in this three-language formula,
48:29it's easier to promote Hindi, but it's not a level playing field.
48:32Other regional languages will stand no chance to be taught as a third language across India.
48:38In that sense, is this national education policy
48:42only paying lip service to other languages or is it encouraging multilingualism?
48:49This may be a legitimate fear and needs to be addressed.
48:52I do not see why in Tamil Nadu,
48:55it should not be easier to teach Malayalam, Kannada, Telugu as the third language.
49:01There are so many speakers, there must be so many teachers available.
49:05We can do it similarly in other parts of the country as well.
49:10So to say that any insistence on a third Indian language
49:16is from the back door and insistence on Hindi is not true.
49:19And I must say one thing.
49:21In the past, the three-language formula used to say Hindi, English, and a third language.
49:28Basically, that's what it amounted to.
49:31In the latest NEP, it doesn't even say that.
49:34It doesn't mention the word Hindi.
49:36It simply says three languages should be taught,
49:40of which two should be languages native to Indian.
49:44I think it's a very fair formula,
49:46as long as bypassing this through classical languages like Sanskrit, etc. is not allowed.
49:53Three, two modern Indian languages should be addressed.
49:57This is a multilingual country.
49:59We have always learned multiple languages.
50:02That needs to be nurtured and promoted and supported in schools, not just Hindi.
50:07Usha Ram, from a CBSE perspective, is that the way forward?
50:11Multilingualism the way forward, according to you?
50:15Yes, yes, yes.
50:16Why not?
50:17Yes, if you see the subjects that we have.
50:22Bilingualism is very important.
50:23And if you see our papers, we have papers for all the subjects.
50:28Those who take it, we give them.
50:29So, you know, the language is one which is, you know,
50:33the children can learn as many languages as they want.
50:36NEP is not...
50:36See, there's a lot of flexibility in this.
50:39There's a lot of, you know,
50:40opportunities given to states to decide which language they want.
50:44So that is for them to decide, you know.
50:47Exactly.
50:47You've got to give every, you know, the freedom of choice.
50:50That's where I want to end with you, Pawan Verma.
50:53Do you believe the freedom of choice is there to students, to schools, to state governments?
50:58Should that be there?
51:00Education being on the concurrent list and promote multilingualism.
51:04Isn't that the strength of this country?
51:06The variety of languages, linguistic diversity should be our strength rather than dividing us.
51:14Precisely, but the three-language policy promotes multilingualism.
51:20That's what I'm saying.
51:20But the real problem is that the NEP has many plus points.
51:25The NEP has many plus points.
51:28But for God's sake, I urge the government to focus on the education,
51:33which allows us to give respect to our languages.
51:37Our survey of the government shows that students in class five
51:42cannot read the script of their mother tongue.
51:45Leave alone any other country of class two.
51:48How are we going to produce a literate, linguistically rooted, educated youth
51:58if their current level of education is so poor in the state of Bihar, for instance?
52:05If there is a school, there is no teacher.
52:07If there is a teacher, there is no school.
52:10Our primary education in the North, in particular, is in Shambles.
52:15So we are coming back to one of our original questions.
52:18Mr. Verma, we are coming back to one of our original questions.
52:21Let's focus on the quality of education and not what language it's taught.
52:24You need a quality education at the end of the day,
52:27irrespective of which language it's taught in.
52:33Absolutely.
52:36We need that and then respect all our languages.
52:40Stop making them a part of politics and stop this perception
52:44that one language is being imposed on another
52:46because it is the way which is totally alien to the way we have developed so far.
52:52I called it enlightened compromise.
52:54That is what we need to pursue, not aggressive inflexibility.
53:00Let me leave it on that.
53:01Do not pursue aggressive inflexibility.
53:05Enlightened compromise could be the way forward.
53:08Allow languages to grow and flourish organically in a country as diverse as ours
53:13and I'm sure India in its own unique way will find a solution.
53:17This is not an issue for confrontation in the 21st century.
53:22Let's focus on the quality of education and not necessarily on the language
53:27necessarily in which it is taught.
53:28To all my guests, for what's been an educative and enlightened debate,
53:32I thank you all very much.
53:34To our viewers, thanks very much for joining us on The Roundtable.
53:38Namaskar, namaskaram, what more should I say?
53:43Good night, bye for now.