France's Minister for Europe Benjamin Haddad warns against capitulating to Russia on Ukraine. There should be no negotiation with Ukrainians and without considering European security, he said. "Europe needs to wake up from its vacation from history," Haddad argued.
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00:00And I'm joined here at the Munich Security Conference by Benjamin Haddad.
00:03He is France's minister for Europe.
00:05And we have some big issues to talk about with France, of course, as one of the leading
00:10forces in both NATO and the European Union.
00:12Thanks for joining us, Ben.
00:13Thanks for having me.
00:14So we've had some shocks here at the Munich Security Conference, and your president has
00:21described the interventions of Piet Hegseth at NATO as an electroshock for Europe.
00:29Of course, that was before the J.D. Vance speech.
00:32Would you say that this is just one more in a series of shocks for Europe?
00:36And what are the implications?
00:38This is indeed an electroshock.
00:40This is a wake-up call for Europeans.
00:42And this is a moment where we have to be united and step up, take matters into our own hands.
00:47We see the war of Russian aggression against Ukraine on our continent.
00:50We see the messages coming from the United States.
00:53And this is about our security as Europeans, stepping up and increasing our defense spending,
00:57increasing our cooperation, and giving ourselves the means to continue to support Ukraine as
01:02we're headed into this negotiation.
01:04A bad ceasefire, a bad negotiation, a capitulation for Putin would be in no one's interest, neither
01:09the United States nor Europeans.
01:12This is what President Macron said in the Financial Times interview.
01:16He is also famously called NATO braindead.
01:18Would you consider this along the same lines?
01:20And was there a good outcome from that sort of, you know, kind of rhetoric?
01:27And would you expect the same this time?
01:28Look, at the end of the day, when you look at what Vice President Van said yesterday,
01:32the rhetoric coming out of President Trump, you see the long-term trend of the United
01:36States basically saying that they want to pivot to Asia.
01:39You see the protectionist trends.
01:40You see the hostile messaging.
01:43And I think what President Macron has always said is Europe needs to wake up from its vacation
01:47from history.
01:48You have tensions.
01:50You have geopolitical turbulence.
01:51You have a war of Russian aggression on our border.
01:55So it's up to us to take our destiny into our hand.
01:58So this means stepping up on defense and cooperation.
02:01This means finding new financing instruments at the European level.
02:05And we've been discussing this, of course, today at the Munich Security Conference.
02:08This been also investing massively in our competitiveness, in our innovation and technology.
02:13We had this week the AI Summit, as you know, in Paris, where we announced massive investment
02:18in France and in Europe to support our tech ecosystem, our talents, our startups in AI
02:25and quantum, because also this is the condition of our sovereignty in the long run.
02:29We cannot afford to wait because the rest of the world is going fast and there's a sense
02:32of urgency now.
02:34But France must be among them.
02:36You're not the highest spenders on defense.
02:40So is he talking about France as well?
02:42Well, over the two terms of the Macron presidency, we have doubled the defense spending.
02:47And even though now we have a budget with lots of budget cuts in different directions,
02:50we're preserving the defense budget because this is the condition of our security.
02:54We're above 2 percent.
02:55We've been participating to military operations both in Europe and in Africa.
03:00You know that France is the framework great nation and Romania has troops in Estonia within
03:05the NATO reassurance.
03:06But it's true.
03:07We all need to do more.
03:08We all need to increase our cooperation.
03:10We all need to invest more in the long run.
03:13And as we think about the security guarantees that we'll need to provide Ukraine to ensure
03:18the long term stability and deterrence against further Russian aggression, European will
03:22also have to take their responsibility and face tough choices ahead.
03:27And this is why this moment is clearly an urgent wake up call.
03:30Let's talk about those security guarantees, because Ukraine has a bilateral security guarantee
03:34with every member of NATO, as well as some other countries.
03:37What are those providing at the moment?
03:40And what more can you provide, especially with France always named as the leader in
03:46preparations for some kind of ground force, if there ever were a ceasefire to maintain?
03:51Well, I think the last part of your question is actually critical, right?
03:54Because first, let's make sure that we put Ukrainians in the best possible situation
03:58on the ground to reinforce their position for a negotiation.
04:03Because otherwise, you know, you just give in to Russia and to, even though they're escalating
04:09on the ground, even though they're keeping maximalist aims against Ukraine.
04:13So you can talk all you want, you can have the commentary you want, the reality will
04:17be on the ground.
04:18Let's continue to support Ukraine and put them in the best possible situation.
04:22There can be no negotiation, no ceasefire without Ukrainians, who are the ones fighting
04:26and sacrificing, and without Europeans, because this is the security of Europe.
04:31But then the best way to ensure the stability of any kind of ceasefire is the question of
04:37security guarantees.
04:38And this is what we're also talking about with Ukrainians.
04:42You know, when I go to the different summits like this one, Ukrainians often talk about
04:47the Budapest Memorandum.
04:49You remember that in the 90s, they were asked to give up their nuclear weapons from the
04:53USSR?
04:54And promised that they would be, their security would be guaranteed.
04:56Exactly.
04:57And promised security guarantees on their borders from Russia.
04:59And we all saw that these security guarantees were not credible, and Russia reneged on it.
05:04So the key also to long-term peace, to a stable peace, to the development and reconstruction
05:08of Ukraine, to the anchoring of Ukraine as a European democracy to our continent, will
05:13be also making sure that we have credible deterrence and security guarantees.
05:17And this will also be the responsibility of Europeans.
05:19But it's easy to say that we would need security guarantees for these troops on the ground.
05:24It's not easy to figure out how those would happen, especially now that the U.S. has ruled
05:28that out.
05:29Although, to be fair, you and I know the U.S. was never considered likely to put troops
05:32on the ground.
05:33But now that they have explicitly said, you can't be covered by Article 5, because this
05:37would not be a NATO operation, what are you guys thinking?
05:40When you say France is making preparations, what could that possibly mean?
05:44How do you put soldiers there when you don't know how you could protect them?
05:47As I said, the first priority is to make sure that we put Ukrainians in the best possible
05:51position for a negotiation, right?
05:53So before even talking about this, let's first make sure that Ukrainians are in the best
05:58position on the ground for a ceasefire.
06:01But I would say, you know, you talk about the United States maybe not being committed
06:04or involved.
06:05Is it in the interest of the United States to have maybe Russia re-attack in a couple
06:10years?
06:11Is it in the interest of the United States to have Russia re-arm, re-double on its aggression?
06:15What kind of message and signal will that send to the rest of the world, to other theaters
06:20when you think about Asia, when you think about the credibility of U.S. power?
06:25So I think that's also a question that U.S. strategists and leaders will have to ask themselves.
06:29And those questions are being posed to them, but at the moment the answer is, we're not
06:33going.
06:34It's up to you, Europe.
06:35So what could it look like?
06:36I mean, you guys are supposed to have been thinking about this for quite a while.
06:40What are the possible configurations of such a force?
06:42Well, this is a conversation we'll have to have with other Europeans, with the Ukrainians
06:47as well, because this is really also about the security and sovereignty of Ukraine.
06:50As I said, they're the ones who are fighting.
06:52They're the ones who are dying, sacrificing not only for their freedom, democracy and
06:56sovereignty, but for ours, for our security as Europeans.
07:00And this is what will be committed in the long run.
07:02And with fears about a U.S. withdrawal in some ways, not a complete withdrawal from
07:06NATO perhaps, does this put more pressure on France as a nuclear power to perhaps consider
07:10extending the nuclear umbrella, which now comes from the United States, to actually
07:15centering that here?
07:16What are you guys thinking about that?
07:17It puts more pressure on all of us to step up.
07:20OK, well, that's a non-answer there, Minister Haddad.
07:24But final question.
07:26We could have had this conversation three years ago when the war started about Europe
07:29knowing it needed more defense spending, a lot of pressure now.
07:34That wasn't enough of a shock.
07:36That wasn't the shock that Europe needed.
07:38Is this new administration's rhetoric going to do more to unify Europe and strengthen
07:44Europe's resolve than the full-scale invasion of Ukraine?
07:49We could and should have had this conversation 30 years ago when we had a genocide on the
07:53European soil in Bosnia and we weren't able to stop it in Srebrenica.
07:57We could have had it in 2007 when Putin gave his infamous speech at the Munich Security
08:01Conference, in 2008 after the aggression on Georgia, or in 2014 with the annexation of
08:07Crimea and already the war through proxies in the Donbas.
08:12And we should have had it also in 2016 after the first Trump election, or maybe when President
08:17Obama did not intervene in Syria after the red line, or maybe when the Biden administration
08:23withdrew unilaterally from Afghanistan without telling European allies or did the IRA at
08:28the expense of European companies.
08:29OK, but you're making my point.
08:31What makes you think it will happen now?
08:32Well, there's a sense of urgency, but it's true.
08:35I mean, we need now this wake-up.
08:38It's been too long.
08:39There's been a sense of denial for too long that we have a vacation of history, that war
08:44is away from Europe, that we can live with the dividends of peace.
08:48And we see now that we're under pressure, that others are accelerating, that we have
08:52war at our border.
08:54And now, you know, it's a time for Europe, and we need to use this moment as an opportunity.
08:58But yes, you're right to underscore the sense of urgency.
09:01All right.
09:02Well, thank you very much.
09:04That's Ben Haddad, Minister for Europe, for France.