CLNS Media's Patriots reporter Taylor Kyles rejoins the show to cover how the Patriots could follow Washington's template for how to jump from a team with a top-5 draft pick and the most cap space in the NFL to a Wild Card berth the following year. Together, the guys map out plans for Drake Maye, the coaching staff, free agency and the draft ahead of a big 2025 season.
0:00 - Intro
2:47 - Patriots coaching staff
7:52 - 8-9 Win Season Prediction
10:24 - Offensive Line Concerns
12:51 - Hiring Offensive Coordinator
17:15 - Free Agency Overview
19:10 - Offensive Line Needs
21:29 - Defensive Upgrades Needed
23:11 - Targeting Key Receivers
26:05 - Mid-Level Veteran Signings
29:49 - Safety Concerns
32:00 - Long-Term Strategy
36:18 - Back to Basics
Pats Interference is presented by:
Prize Picks! Get in on the excitement with PrizePicks, America’s No. 1 Fantasy Sports App, where you can turn your hoops knowledge into serious cash. Download the app today and use code CLNS to get $50 when you play $5! PrizePicks, run your game! Go to https://PrizePicks.com/CLNS
Gametime! Take the guesswork out of buying NBA tickets with Gametime. Download the Gametime app, create an account, and use code CLNS for $20 off your first purchase. Download Gametime today. What time is it? Gametime! Terms apply. Go to https://gametime.co !
0:00 - Intro
2:47 - Patriots coaching staff
7:52 - 8-9 Win Season Prediction
10:24 - Offensive Line Concerns
12:51 - Hiring Offensive Coordinator
17:15 - Free Agency Overview
19:10 - Offensive Line Needs
21:29 - Defensive Upgrades Needed
23:11 - Targeting Key Receivers
26:05 - Mid-Level Veteran Signings
29:49 - Safety Concerns
32:00 - Long-Term Strategy
36:18 - Back to Basics
Pats Interference is presented by:
Prize Picks! Get in on the excitement with PrizePicks, America’s No. 1 Fantasy Sports App, where you can turn your hoops knowledge into serious cash. Download the app today and use code CLNS to get $50 when you play $5! PrizePicks, run your game! Go to https://PrizePicks.com/CLNS
Gametime! Take the guesswork out of buying NBA tickets with Gametime. Download the Gametime app, create an account, and use code CLNS for $20 off your first purchase. Download Gametime today. What time is it? Gametime! Terms apply. Go to https://gametime.co !
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SportsTranscript
00:00All right, we are taking you back in time right away.
00:16It is not Monday or Tuesday or Wednesday, whenever you get to listen to this sometime
00:19after January 20th.
00:21It is Friday, January 17th, and due to some scheduling audibling, I have Taylor Kiles
00:26in here from the past to talk to you about the future and why the Patriots may or may
00:30not be on a commander's level track.
00:32And Taylor, as you and I just discussed off air, this could mean one of two things, given
00:35the commanders are going to play tomorrow, Saturday.
00:38Either they upset the Lions, okay, and go to the NFC Championship game, and people think
00:43you and I are lunatics for suggesting or even entertaining the possibility that the Patriots
00:48could go to the AFC Championship next year, or they lose, everyone celebrates a successful
00:53season in Washington, and we draw some reasonable parallels.
00:56How do you feel about going into this unknown, which will be very known to everyone else
00:59who's listening and watching right now?
01:01I'm nervous, but hey, if anything, maybe it'll just be a precursor to some crazy turnaround
01:06for the team next year, if the commanders actually do manage to pull it off.
01:09But yeah, I'm going to be careful-ish with my words, so this doesn't look too insane
01:15after the weekend.
01:16Well, you're a big Marvel guy, so I feel like it's okay to play with the space-time continuum
01:21here of all the guests we've had here on Passing Interference, and of course, people
01:24can find you, Pat Staley, everywhere across the LMS media, and should be if they're not
01:28already.
01:29What I want to ask you now, though, because another thing we just discussed off-air is
01:32how slow things have gotten, I'd say, the last 72 hours, and that's okay.
01:36Mike Frabel got hired on Monday, just barely a week after Gerard Mayo got fired.
01:41Right now, it's been a whirlwind 11 days here in New England, and as things start to slow
01:47down, I think they're waiting to build the staff the right way and obviously figure out
01:50who might be interested and who can even talk, given some candidates are on playoff
01:53staffs.
01:54Taking all that in, digesting it, give me a vibes check.
01:58How are you feeling right now about the state of the franchise?
02:01I'm feeling pretty good.
02:03Like last year, the one thing that kind of got me off the edge was, okay, they got Drake
02:07May, so, you know, off-season wasn't great before that, but at least that gives you hope
02:10for the future.
02:11This year, now you got the quarterback and you have a serious head coach in Mike Frabel,
02:16who ideally is going to bring a culture of discipline, of toughness, and obviously the
02:21credibility that he comes with having been a head coach before, having won three Super
02:24Bowls with the team, being in the Hall of Fame and all that.
02:27Now, obviously, not knowing who the coordinators are going to be and the rest of where this
02:30coaching staff is going to shake out, you know, I can't say I'm too excited necessarily,
02:35but just knowing that they are in good hands at the two most important positions in the
02:38organization does give me some optimism after what was, just got to be a very, very tough
02:44season to follow, especially towards the end there.
02:46Yeah, to interrupt, 4-13, back-to-back, coming off an 8-9 where, you know, you and I were
02:51both watching the Matt Patricia offense as everyone was, going, what the hell is this?
02:55That offense scored points, man.
02:56It's something we've not seen a whole lot since, even if it made less sense than the
03:01structure of the past two offenses, but anyway, let's leave the past in the past.
03:05One thing I do want to note, because, you know, I might be the only Patriots podcaster,
03:09writer, reporter, whatever, not talking about that coaching staff and the lack of names,
03:14but what I'll say is this, from someone I talked to today, you know, if we haven't heard
03:18any OC candidates in ensuing assistants, it's not only because Mike Rabel's considering
03:22people still working right now in the playoffs, but I think what he would like to do is start
03:27at the top, find an offensive coordinator, then fill in down below.
03:31So I've thrown out, in case people missed this earlier this week or last week now, by
03:34the time they hear this, Tyler Hughes could stay on staff, given his connection to Mike
03:38Rabel, Jason Hotaling is currently an offensive assistant with the Offensive Line Chicago,
03:42before that with the Titans and Mike Rabel, who loved his interview before he hired him
03:46in 2023.
03:47So like, there are names here, and defensive guys could be holdovers, we'll see.
03:51They're being patient, that's the reason we're going to wait, but right now we're going to
03:54hit fast forward.
03:55So the commanders, whether they're out or not right now, I think is the highest end
04:00outcome for the Patriots in 2025.
04:03You're here, so I assume that means you agree it's even possible, yes?
04:07Yes, yes.
04:08Okay, great.
04:09Now, the reason there's a parallel is not because just a young quarterback or you have
04:14a head coach, it's everything.
04:16A year ago, the commanders were the Patriots right now.
04:19They were a team with a top five pick.
04:21They led the league in cap space going into free agency.
04:24Patriots have over 120 million, that's almost 30 million more than anybody else.
04:29They have a new culture building head coach who's in his second stint as a head coach,
04:33as we know, a very valuable experience.
04:35And there are franchising that's attempting to kind of just shake off dysfunction like
04:39a wet dog who's coming back in the house.
04:41So the difference obviously is what happens next.
04:44Do you build?
04:45Do you sign guys in free agents?
04:46Do you build through the draft?
04:48Washington's plan succeeded, 12 and five season wildcard berth, all of that.
04:53Patriots don't need to get 12 wins to succeed, but if they do, what are the odds right now
04:58before they make any signings, before they make any draft picks, before they fill out
05:02the staff that they get somewhere near this next season, in your opinion, I'll put it
05:07at like a 55% leaning towards a 60.
05:10I think I'll feel more realistic depending on who is on staff.
05:14And a lot of that is because, like I said, the most important spots are taken care of,
05:19right?
05:20You got Mike Vrabel, you got Drake May, there are certain things you assume they're going
05:22to have going into this season.
05:24Whereas with Gerard, we had no idea really, there was optimism and you wanted to see him
05:29succeed.
05:30We saw his lack of experience really hurt them.
05:32But now the Patriots do have all of these resources.
05:35There are a ton of holes to address and I know we'll get to that a little bit later,
05:38but the fact that they actually can do it.
05:40And now you have a quarterback head coach combo where when you're sitting down at the
05:44table in free agency, you actually have something to offer something to, you know, wet some
05:48pallets maybe.
05:49Whereas last season you had a rookie head coach, a staff that was almost completely
05:53unproven and you didn't even know who the quarterback was going to be.
05:56And a big thing, I think a big reason the commanders were able to reset was because
06:00they signed a ton of veterans.
06:02Like when you think about the people other than Jaden Daniels making plays for that team,
06:05it's a lot of older players.
06:07And with the Patriots defensively, injuries were a big part of that, right?
06:10There were veteran defense, but a ton of those guys were banged up, didn't play, what have
06:14you.
06:15Offensive really stood out, right?
06:17Where it wasn't just injuries, it was just youth at every position and just, it really
06:22hampered what they were able to do on a consistent basis because you had so many guys you couldn't
06:26rely on.
06:27So I think this year, if you surround Drake May with veteran talent, these coaches with
06:31veteran talent, less unknowns, and then maybe on the defensive side of the ball, you get
06:35healthier, maybe add a couple of additions to the trenches and then best player available
06:39in the draft.
06:40So you don't have to make the reaches you did last year.
06:42I think this is a very different looking team, especially if they do have that discipline
06:47and you can maximize the roster the way we saw for able to do when he was in Tennessee.
06:51Okay.
06:52And I'm going to do this for the both of us.
06:53Disclaimer, it is still the middle of January.
06:57They have not gotten near for agency.
06:59They don't have a plan yet.
07:00They haven't gotten close to the draft.
07:02You don't know who's on staff.
07:03This is as it stands right now, based on the tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny bits of information
07:07we have.
07:08What would your guests be?
07:09That said your percentage, they're 55, 60% lean towards.
07:13They should do this double digit wins push for a wildcard spot is like a factor of five
07:18over mine.
07:19And it's not because I disagree with your core tenant of like quarterback matters most
07:28head coach matter.
07:29Second most you look at that combination, my opinion, whether it's this year or the
07:33next five seasons, that's a top 12 pairing in the NFL period.
07:39That's where I stand in my belief in Drake may and Mike Drake may and Mike.
07:43So that's good.
07:45What I need to know though, is not only that they surround them with appropriate talent,
07:50that talent stays healthy and you've got a week schedule and you take advantage of, but
07:52you also get a little bit lucky.
07:54So I want to say again, I think it ain't nine win season next year.
07:58Just being in the mix, hanging in the mix, be at the bottom of the conversation right
08:02in there in a way they've not been would be a successful season.
08:05So let's make the case against it really quick.
08:07Cause again, keep ourselves grounded.
08:08I mentioned getting lucky when you look at the commanders point differential, and this
08:12to me is a really good indicator of your kind of run of play.
08:14How often are you really winning down to down versus just kind of getting lucky in the end
08:18or winning these tight games based on a bounce of the ball in a normal season, they would
08:24be closer to 10 or 11 wins versus 12.
08:26So there's an automatic bump there where they're winning these games late and you could describe
08:29it to Jane Daniels bravery and his accuracy and his experience.
08:32And there's something to be said for that.
08:33There's also something to be said for a hail Mary, where the dude who gives it up is waving
08:38to the fans while the offense bum rushes him into the end zone.
08:41And you can't count on that year after year.
08:43They've been healthy.
08:44As I mentioned, this is a team that was better in the trenches.
08:49Compared to the Patriots, where they are right now, offensive line of the league, and you
08:52had a tent pole player by receiver, some of the Patriots have not had in five years.
08:57So they are where the Patriots are right now, a year ago, but they were a little bit ahead.
09:02Even if they were picking second ahead of you.
09:04And right now the Patriots have the quarterback that I leave anything out as far as like the
09:08case against the Patriots, making this leap moving forward.
09:11I think the other one is that the premium positions on offense outside of quarterback
09:15are going to be tough to address.
09:16And I think Drake may is a good enough player that he'll be able to mitigate that as long
09:20as you put a lot of support around him in other places.
09:23But I keep trying to figure out how do they get the wide receiver?
09:26How do they get their franchise left tackle?
09:28I don't really know because neither position is super strong in the draft.
09:32The Patriots are in a weird spot as well, where it feels like to get the best value
09:35for left tackle for wide receiver, they're going to have to do some maneuvering.
09:39And then in free agency, it's basically like, all right, you got some options, but if those
09:42are off the board for one reason or another, you're probably dealing with stopgap options.
09:46And those are two other factors where I think, I think Drake may can carry this offense pretty
09:50far.
09:51And then on the defensive side of the ball, also, I think just, you don't know if a lot
09:54of these veterans are going to be healthy.
09:55If they come back and they play to the standard we expect, I really think this could be a
09:59formidable defense like we expected last off season.
10:03But we really don't know how the safeties are going to be.
10:05Christian Barmore's long-term health, Jawan Bentley even, and he's a guy whose contract's
10:09expiring.
10:10So there's definitely some reasons on both sides of the ball, I think where you can for
10:14sure say, you know what, it would be a bit of a miracle if they were able to get past
10:18that threshold.
10:19Yeah.
10:20And they might have to replace, let's be honest, up to four offensive line starters in 2025.
10:24And if the fifth guy, Mike Onwenu, you hope plays right guard, but might have to go to
10:29right tackle based on whomever else you do add or don't.
10:32And you know, I exclude David Andrews there, mostly out of a health reason, though he updated
10:37us this week that he, again, this week, meaning last week, by the time the folks get to this,
10:41he finally bench pressed on that bum shoulder that required surgery, which was leaning towards
10:45more experimental for a football player than like, oh, you'll be back in eight weeks or
10:49eight months, whatever it might be, had it been a more traditional injury.
10:52So you've got the offensive line.
10:54I would also add the defensive line, like Jonathan Jones said on this podcast last episode,
10:58that's where he wants to dive in.
10:59They need to upgrade there.
11:00And not just from a high-end talent standpoint, where you're right, Christian Barmore's health
11:04is obviously paramount.
11:06Let's get that out of the way.
11:07I think we all care about the most.
11:08But also football-wise, a big question mark.
11:10He came back, then had to go home, and who knows what that looks like for him.
11:15So it's the high-end talent and the depth behind them.
11:18Because none of the defensive line when the Patriots rolled out after the first six plays
11:22in an opening drive, right, where you've got to just freshen those bodies.
11:25Scared anybody.
11:26These are waiver-wired claims.
11:27Daniel Iacobali's playing 70% of the snaps, never done half in his entire career for a
11:31single season.
11:32So it's depth, it's high-end talent, and some really, really important positions.
11:35All right, let's get to your favorite part here.
11:37Let's lay out the whole plan, why this will happen, either 55% to you, 5% to me.
11:43Filling out the coaching staff, reasonable plan, step one.
11:47Who's the OC hire?
11:48What are you doing to kind of boost your odds here?
11:50Offense coordinator, I think it's Josh.
11:52Because when you think about, all right, who do you want to bring in to lead this offense?
11:55You want somebody that can and has called plays.
11:58You want somebody who can and has designed an offense.
12:00And ideally, you'd like somebody with experience developing quarterbacks, because you have
12:04Drake May, right?
12:06That's why the Rams hires kind of worry me.
12:08I think Mike LaFleur is a great candidate, Nick Caley is someone they've shown interest
12:11in, of course.
12:12But they don't have a lot of experience at quarterback.
12:15I think LaFleur, his background before he was a coordinator and started working up in
12:18the pass game was with receivers, and Caley's been with tight ends.
12:21So Josh, I think it's easy.
12:23He's a guy where you don't expect he's going to go anywhere.
12:25I think the head coach cycle for him has dried up.
12:28If he gets an OC job, I think he's just going to take it.
12:31And it's a great opportunity for him.
12:32That's kind of like another chance to, as someone who was integral in developing Tom
12:35Brady, another chance to develop a really talented quarterback who could probably take
12:39you to some pretty high heights.
12:40So I just think it's the easy answer.
12:43I'm sure they're going to, well, I at least hope they're going to do a thorough search
12:45and make sure they have all their options and they know what is out there.
12:49But just Josh makes the most sense.
12:52He makes the most sense.
12:53And again, stick with the Washington parallel, where a year ago, the commanders had the most
12:56cap space.
12:57They had a top five pick.
12:58They've got to rework for an office.
13:00They've got a retread defensive head coach culture center.
13:04What Dan Quinn then did was hire another retread head coach who had been an offensive CEO before
13:11in cliff Kingsbury and set aside the scheme fit, which is obviously very important.
13:15But that notion that I've worked with quarterbacks before I've developed them.
13:19I also know how to run the show and fill up my staff is huge because then that lets Dan
13:25Quinn be Dan Quinn on the defensive side of the ball and as the overall CEO.
13:29And we'll let Mike Vrabel do the same here in New England, which is what his best at,
13:32as opposed to, we even saw with Bill Belichick, like the limits of the greatest coach of all
13:36time came up and were exposed when he had to play offensive coordinator and then dip
13:42into that room the year after and be the offensive line coach in 2023.
13:45So I think that hire is a great one.
13:48And there is some upside to the unknown, right?
13:50Sometimes that ticket is the Sean McVay.
13:52Other times it's not.
13:53I would also go with Josh here again.
13:55I would also add this.
13:57When I say the plan is to hire Josh or another CEO, he runs a pretty complex system.
14:01Like sometimes it just kind of collapsed under the weight of its own complexity.
14:05If you do sign a bunch of veterans, they're ready to roll with that.
14:08And that could provide you with a little bit of edge in those games.
14:11It could be toss ups of we're doing more that you can't account for because our playbooks
14:15bigger because we can afford to do that because we have a bunch of older guys in the roster,
14:18including Hunter Henry and Kendrick Bourne.
14:20Kendrick Bourne had a career high, 800 yards under McDaniels Hunter Henry had a career
14:23high.
14:24I think it was nine touchdowns under Josh.
14:26So those older guys can pick it up.
14:27And obviously with Drake, he's going to have to come along.
14:30But from everything we know, the guy just inhales information.
14:33TC McCartney called him the smartest guy in the building.
14:35So I'm not too worried about if Matt Jones can figure it out.
14:38Was that the most bittersweet quote of the season for you?
14:42Like the 22 year old, this is the smartest person in the building.
14:44I was like, oh, my exact reaction was just that's awesome.
14:49And just so not awesome.
14:51Really kind of unfortunate.
14:53The only time that should really be true is if you've got like a high school graduation
14:58in the audience.
14:59You know, like the 22 year old who's been held back for years is the smartest person
15:03because he's been here the longest and the opposite is true of Drake May.
15:06He's the youngest, most experienced of them anyway.
15:08Great for the future.
15:09Sad commentary in the state of the franchise as far as TC McCartney goes.
15:12Now, first of all, had to TC McCartney who had some role along with Alex Van Pelton developing
15:16Drake May.
15:17All right.
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17:15We move on to free agency.
17:17Mike Frable said they had to become a destination.
17:19That's obviously true.
17:21Money talks the loudest.
17:22There is a millionaire's tax here.
17:23There is the consideration of just everything that's gone wrong the last five years starts
17:27to overshadow what happened the 20 years before that.
17:32So what is your general plan of attack here?
17:35And if you want to get granular with names, go as long as you want.
17:39So for the offensive side of the ball, like I mentioned earlier, you need to get experience.
17:42You have a ton of young players.
17:44I think if anything, one of the benefits of last season was so many young guys got a ton
17:48of experience like Demontre Jacobs, like Ben Brown, like guys who you would hope would
17:53be depth pieces in the future.
17:54Some guys are, you know, restricted or exclusive rights for agents.
17:57So they need to be brought back that way.
17:59But young guys got experience.
18:00But this year, enough of that, you know, get Drake Mays, some guys who know what they're
18:04doing.
18:05Because again, I think that's a big part of why Jaden Daniels has managed to have success
18:08in Washington.
18:09So first part of that is getting it in the trenches.
18:13Both sides of the ball, the Patriots need to look very, very different up front because
18:16it's a big reason they were so bad.
18:18He couldn't run the ball consistently, couldn't protect the quarterback.
18:21Now Patrick McCurry seems like the guy who makes the most sense.
18:25Lane Robinson and Caden Wallace, they finished on high notes relative to what the rest of
18:28their season was and where they were drafted.
18:31But is Mike Vrabel really going to feel confident in saying, you know, a fourth round pick at
18:34left guard?
18:35Even if you have Cole Strange, do you think left guard is completely secure and then right
18:39tackle Caden Wallace might have a future in the league?
18:42You know, he's a patient player.
18:44He's savvy, needs to be better against power for sure.
18:47But I don't know if you want to bank on it.
18:49McCurry has played pretty much every position on the offensive line.
18:52He's been a left guard and a right tackle for the Ravens.
18:54I like that you can kind of hedge your bet there.
18:57Or if Mike Vrabel wants to say, you know what, I'm not messing around.
18:59Get Trey Smith.
19:01He played left guard when he was in college, but him and Mike and when you, whether it's
19:04David Andrews or Cole Strange in the middle, that's a damn good middle of the pocket.
19:08Mike Vrabel has really emphasized that at receiver T Higgins kind of worries me because
19:14I think that Mike Vrabel, he's emphasized the importance of receivers.
19:17I don't think it's going to be like other regimes where he just says, ah, we'll figure
19:20it out.
19:22But you're talking about a guy who may demand like $30 million more than that going to be
19:26one of the highest paid receivers, especially if he comes here.
19:29But he also has a history of soft tissue injuries.
19:32That's something that apparently Mike Vrabel has very little tolerance for.
19:35Are they really going to pay that much money for a guy who might not be available all the
19:38time?
19:39I'm not sure.
19:40So I think Darius Slayton, Nick Westbrook, Akina, not exciting names.
19:44Both guys that have played ex receiver at least have experienced Darius Slayton with
19:48Ryan Cowden.
19:49They're a bit familiar.
19:50Slayton is Walter Payton, a man of the ward nominee gives you something in the locker
19:55room.
19:56We know that we're at receiver room.
19:57So much came out of there.
19:58We'd like them to be a lot more quiet.
20:00So maybe add Slayton, Nick Westbrook, Akina, a guy who came up was undrafted in Tennessee
20:05under Mike Vrabel and came up and has been a respectable veteran.
20:09Maybe you throw them in there.
20:10But I'm going to say right now, unless you get some guys on the draft, and I think they
20:13will.
20:14I don't think free agency is going to be really exciting for weapons, except for that Austin
20:17Hooper re-signed tweet.
20:19That's going to hit like crazy because it's probably going to be the best addition they
20:22got.
20:23And then real quick defensive side, Milton Williams and Josh sweat for the Eagles.
20:27I really, really like them.
20:29First of all, behind Christian Farmore and Devon Gottschalk, Patriots have no depth at
20:33defensive tackle and as many five down fronts as they run.
20:37I think that a guy like Milton Williams is really a starter for you and especially a
20:41guy you're going to want in the rotation pretty heavily been one of the best pass rushers
20:44period in football in a contract year.
20:46And then Josh sweat, you have no edge rush at all right now.
20:50It's Anthony Jennings and Keon White doing his absolute best.
20:53He's more of an interior rusher.
20:54So Josh sweat, I think is a good guy to kind of hold it down for a few seasons.
20:58Hopefully they draft somebody as well.
21:00And then I think really re-signed John Jones.
21:02He has the safety, the corner flexibility, more on an Adrian Phillips kind of plan where
21:07maybe he doesn't play a ton.
21:08You know, he's more in the background.
21:10He plays when he needs to let the young guys play and see what they've got there.
21:13But on the defense, really, I think you just need more young explosiveness.
21:17So maybe the middle to end of the draft there, Abdul Carter, please, please, please.
21:21At number four, that'd be fantastic and much needed for this defense.
21:24Trenches on both sides are the really big places where you got to upgrade.
21:28And then I just think in terms of receiving talent, get some guys who are just reliable.
21:32They don't need to be studs.
21:33But if you have a strong run game, you're protecting Drake May.
21:36At least he can get the ball and maximize those guys and then make it a huge priority
21:41in 2026 when some of these holes are filled.
21:44So my man saves up for a whole year and then takes his big bag of cash and goes back to
21:49dollar stores.
21:49That's what you're telling me, man.
21:52I'm not.
21:54I think you'll like this projection.
21:57But I mean, it's just like we say Smith would be expensive.
22:00It's tough.
22:00It's tough.
22:01OK, so look, I like the broader theme that you brought there.
22:05Like there are a lot of mid-level veterans, guys who are not going to break the bank.
22:09And it's not because they're inexpensive that makes them attractive.
22:12It's the fact that when you sign players to contracts like that, they're more likely to
22:16outperform those contracts and then provide you value.
22:19And the way you go, that was a great signing.
22:21The only way that T Higgins at $30 million lives up to that contract is if you get the
22:26best of T Higgins we've not seen yet.
22:28So you're betting on something happening that you've never seen before.
22:31That's just how it goes to the top of free agency pay for future performance.
22:35Now, I would take a swing at T Higgins because I think you could Hunter Henry's had a lot
22:39of injuries, but he's an example of sometimes the soft tissue stuff, the Patriots approach
22:43and philosophy has been, we're just going to run this out of you.
22:46We run a lot more than that.
22:47That seems to solve some of the soft tissue injuries, bring them in here.
22:50Granted, the hamstring history is not great.
22:53And those can be very finicky injuries, but you need a receiver who's going to tilt the
22:57field, have some sort of gravity running through coverage.
22:59Now, if you don't like T Higgins, fine.
23:01Chris Godwin, I'm talking about reliable.
23:03Again, some injuries in there.
23:05People who love to do this about receivers that we run blocks so well, like, OK, that's
23:08fine.
23:08Just if he didn't, that'd be all right with me.
23:11But he does everything really well.
23:12Plays inside, can play out trusted experience.
23:15Receiver had a little bit experience covering Chris Godwin when he was in college at Penn
23:18State.
23:19Great dude.
23:20Ultimate professional.
23:21So I'm looking there.
23:22Top end.
23:22Ronnie Stanley is another name I'm looking at and for agency.
23:25And this is much because T Higgins and Godwin and Ronnie Stanley are the best at their positions.
23:30They're the best at premium positions.
23:32And I think if you can solve and plug the biggest holes in your roster, which dictate
23:37winning and losing every single Sunday in the season, then I can go to the draft and
23:41say, which we'll get to in a second.
23:42Just give me the best player available.
23:44Because, yes, Abdul Carter, like you're saying, that's where I'm at right now.
23:47Looking at number four, great player, premium position.
23:50But if he's not there, I don't feel like I need to reach.
23:53In a way, I think you would agree.
23:55Caden Wallace probably wasn't a third round talent last year, especially given he only
23:58played right tackle.
24:00Right or wrong?
24:01I know.
24:01I would agree.
24:02I'd agree.
24:03Yeah.
24:03And so Jalen Polk was a projected second round pick.
24:06People seem to forget that as he goes these historic lows.
24:09But stepping back from the T. Higgins, Chris Godwin, Ronnie Stanley shopping, you go one
24:13out of three.
24:14Fine.
24:14I think that's a success.
24:15But that's where I start.
24:16Fill in with the mid-level veterans.
24:17And this brings me back to the commanders.
24:19Austin Eckler, Bobby Wagner, Frank Lee Louvoo, who is a 28-year-old linebacker, just came
24:24off of 99 tackles, eight sacks in a pick.
24:27That's a mid-level veteran.
24:28Guys who come in, know what to do, where to be, they're professional, bring the system
24:33to life, the culture to life, and are not that expensive.
24:36Washington, also, you talk about the trenches, Tyler Biotish, experienced center.
24:41Patriots may or may not need a center.
24:42That's an example.
24:43Nick El Gretty.
24:44That was another guy from Kansas City.
24:45Not so great, but good enough at left guard.
24:48Jamison Crowder even.
24:49Zach Hertz, who way outperformed expectations somehow.
24:52I didn't see it.
24:52But that's the point of these signings.
24:54If they bust, it's not a huge deal.
24:56If you hit, it's at worst a double.
25:00And that's what the Patriots need to have, to build out their depth and to get more value
25:03out of a roster that's not giving you much in the way of value or anything the last couple
25:08of years.
25:08And something else I'd like to see them emphasize in this free agent class is guys from winning
25:13cultures.
25:13David Andrews mentioned that to us when he was cleaning out his locker.
25:16I think that started to become a theme.
25:18You started hearing players talk about just there's so many young guys who aren't used
25:21to winning and all that.
25:22Yeah, that's true.
25:24And I think we're like a year or two away from the Patriots not having anybody left
25:27who has won a championship as a player who is currently still a player.
25:31So like the guys like T Higgins, Patrick McCurry and Ronnie Stanley, like the Eagles
25:36players I mentioned, get those guys who know what the standard is.
25:40They know how to come to work and they know what it takes to be successful.
25:44Because if you keep bringing in like the mid-level guys are important, but I think it matters
25:48when your starters are guys who are the ones who Mike Vrabel and Gerard Mayo both said
25:53you want the players to be the ones who really establish the culture.
25:57The head coach, his job is really to say this is going to be tolerated and this will not.
26:01But the players are the ones who are leading by example.
26:03So I think that's another big part that they need to do this offseason.
26:07Yeah.
26:07And to the commander's credit, because again, this is the comparison here.
26:10The template, if you will, Bobby Wagner comes from a great culture leader.
26:14Austin Eckler, consummate professional.
26:16Zach Ertz like was in Arizona going, I'm trying my best, but it's the Cardinals.
26:21OK, and then goes to Washington with a functional organization and a great quarterback
26:25and then springs back to life.
26:26So it's those guys that can provide the residual value and forget the commanders for a second.
26:31I don't know if you remember this, Taylor, but when I was growing up and watching the
26:34Patriots become the Patriots, some of Belichick's first signings, in addition to the fact he
26:39always made the mid-level veteran like a staple of his free agency approach.
26:43Anthony Pleasant, Bobby Hamilton, Roman Pfeiffer, this was more expensive, but Rodney Harrison,
26:50back end of his career, Tyrone Poole, like all these guys who again came in.
26:55There was no learning curve.
26:57Here's the system.
26:57Be a part of the culture.
26:59Drive it.
26:59Harrison was a captain his first year like that speaks to, I think, kind of in the middle
27:03where you're saying like the culture part is important as well as just like the monetary
27:06value of what you could bring, whereas there's not as much risk because we kind of know what
27:09you are.
27:10And if you surprise us, perfect, because that's that's what they need to start doing that.
27:14They're not that many signings that you look at, aside from maybe Austin Hooper.
27:17They're like, oh, oh, that was that was a great slice.
27:20That's pretty sweet.
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28:14What time is it?
28:15Game time.
28:15All right.
28:16We both hit on the draft.
28:17Again, it's more than four months away.
28:19No one hold us to this.
28:21OK, no one's even writing in pencil.
28:22This is just like just writing with your finger in the air.
28:25But when you look at this.
28:26It goes away immediately.
28:32You know, positions of note.
28:33I have not taken a deep dive into this.
28:35I don't want to commit to anything.
28:36But like general philosophy, I said best player available as often as you can.
28:41Do you think that's the way that the Patriots should attack it?
28:44Because when you look at Washington, they did a little bit of both.
28:47It was obviously Jaden Daniels at the top.
28:49Brandon Coleman later on.
28:50But they had filled out most of the roster.
28:52So they felt like they could get the best talent available.
28:54I think it should be best player available.
28:56But I don't like going one way like one or the other or fully one way or the other.
29:01Because I think you get in very dangerous territory where you can get the best player
29:04available.
29:05And by your grading, that could be a kicker in the third round.
29:08Do I want the Patriots to take a kicker in the third round?
29:10Hell no.
29:11Do I want them to reach for a player that they need at a certain position?
29:14Obviously, no, because that's basically been what's been screwing them the past few years.
29:18What I would like to see is, yes, I think the groundwork should be best player available.
29:23But in the back of your head, understand the spine of your team needs improvement.
29:28So you talk about the offensive line.
29:29I'd even throw like tight end, really like the middle of the field.
29:32Tight end.
29:33You got some good players, especially if you reach on Austin Hooper.
29:35But you don't have a lot of young dynamic talent where you expect them at some point
29:39to be starting caliber players.
29:40You say the same about the defensive line.
29:43Not a whole lot of young talent there that you're developing.
29:46Linebacker, even if you bring back a Christian Ellis, who takes over if Juwan Bentley has
29:50to go down or if he doesn't come back after a couple of seasons?
29:53Safety.
29:53I think Marte Mapu, you see what you have in him.
29:55I like Del Pettis is a third-ish more fourth safety.
29:59But with Peppers and Duggar having both been injured significantly last year, what's really
30:03going to happen to them long term?
30:04When you look down the middle of this team, I think there's a lot of concerns running
30:07back.
30:08I throw in there as well.
30:09Remind Ray Stevenson and Antonio Gibson, they're going to be here for a while.
30:12But you'd also like some explosive young talent because Mondra gets banged up.
30:16I think Gibson was banged up because his role last season was a little funky in the way
30:20that he was used.
30:20So obviously, you want to add some, I think, young pass catching talent as well.
30:25Get Drake May, especially in round three.
30:27I think there's going to be some really nice value picks of guys that they could plug in
30:31and at least have rules right away.
30:32So, of course, no more reaches.
30:35I'm really strictly against that.
30:36But I also don't think you just pick literally the best player on the board every time.
30:40I think you say, OK, if these guys are graded pretty closely, but I really like this guy
30:44and I think he's going to be, you know, a move tight end that we could put all over
30:47the field and really be a nice compliment to Drake May.
30:51I think you want to consider that as well.
30:54Yeah, I like it.
30:54Like you're talking about providing meaningful depth in addition to guys like the top two
30:58rounds.
30:59As always, you're chasing high end potential starters.
31:01And you mentioned running back.
31:02That's something I hadn't even considered.
31:03But it did remind me how many problems I have as a person because I'll tell you two nights
31:08ago, I had a dream that Romandre Stevenson fumbled for an eighth and ninth time.
31:11That guy has not played football in two weeks.
31:13And I wake up going, oh, my God, poor Mandrake.
31:15What am I talking about?
31:17It's over.
31:18It's been over.
31:19Like, unless he dropped something at the supermarket.
31:22I don't know why this could not have possibly happened.
31:24I do.
31:25I have a lot of work to do this offseason as well as the Patriots.
31:27But I think, yeah, and the spine of the defense is something that I brought up before.
31:33And we saw more with the injuries, right?
31:34Barmore goes out.
31:35Bentley's gone.
31:37Peppers is sidelined.
31:38And you not only need to just cross your fingers that those guys are available and healthy,
31:42but understand that if they're not, again, you need better answers than what the Patriots
31:46had last year and specifically at defensive tackle.
31:50Linebacker Christian Ellis helped the best way he could, but probably long term best suited
31:53for his original role.
31:55Of course, special teamer, maybe some dime linebacker stuff if he continues to grow.
31:59So, yeah, I think the draft for depth and not just, you know, I mean, the best teams,
32:03bottom line thread the needle between best player available and addressing their own
32:08needs, not immediately, but in the long term, because then it's not too much pressure.
32:12If the rookie comes in and flops like Jalen Polk did, you're not thinking of him as a
32:16plug and play guy in the way the Patriots did.
32:18And all that pressure is not on him.
32:19That obviously affected immensely last year.
32:21100%.
32:22100%.
32:22And then, I mean, the first and second rounds are the only ones where you're really even
32:27expecting those guys to be starters.
32:29Year one.
32:29Like I know when we talk about Caden Wallace and Javon Baker and Lane Robinson, we all
32:33were hoping at some point they would become starters because, again, there were holes
32:37that needed to be filled.
32:38But it wasn't fair to say these guys are going to be starters because a third round pick
32:43is someone you hope becomes a quality backup, maybe a kind of guy that's a role player,
32:48but isn't a full blown starter.
32:49So I think that's also important to keep in mind.
32:51First rounders.
32:52Yes, they should start right away.
32:54Second rounders at the very least should be impact players for you, even if they're not
32:57guys who play most of the snaps.
32:59But keep in mind, the guys third and later, they're supposed to be developmental guys.
33:03It's great if you get contributions from them, but you can't necessarily expect it.
33:07So if you can get the best talent in those areas, that's obviously going to increase
33:11the likelihood that those people can actually enter the rotation earlier on.
33:14Right.
33:15Now, a couple more notes because I think the next thing, OK, for agencies over, the staff's
33:19been filled.
33:20You've had the draft.
33:22Who do you want to be?
33:23How do you want to play?
33:25What is the framework within which you're feeling this?
33:27And you can be a smart, tough, defendable football team.
33:30And that's great.
33:30But what are you doing on the field to fulfill that?
33:32And I think when you sign players like a Bobby Wagner to bring this back to Washington,
33:37you had experience with Dan Quinn from their time in Seattle.
33:39That's a guy who, again, brings part of that scheme to life.
33:42It's a simplistic scheme.
33:43You empower guys like Jonathan Allen just to be single gap attack upfield.
33:47This is who we're going to be.
33:48Trade for Marshawn Latimer when you realize, hey, we can play more man coverage than we
33:52expected.
33:53And offensively, you know, Cliff Kingsbury shotgun heavy spread system suited to Jaden
33:59Daniels.
34:00Let's say they do most of what we're talking about here.
34:02How are you changing the Patriots play style again to maximize their chances of just making
34:07this wildcard push in 2025?
34:09I'll say offensively, I want them to maximize Drake May.
34:13Like anytime they're on schedule, I need there to be the threat of pretty much anything,
34:17right?
34:18I want there to be a chance that he keeps it.
34:19I want there to be a chance that the guy going in motion is going to get the ball.
34:23I want there to constantly be multiple things that defense has to think about.
34:26I think Alex and Pelt did his best.
34:28I think there are a lot of limitations he has as a coordinator and as a play caller,
34:32but I also think really his main role is developing quarterbacks.
34:34He was great at that.
34:35Josh McDaniels has been great at most of those things, but I think the amount of window dressing
34:40you see in the NFL is at a completely different level where I'm studying Ben Johnson and there's
34:45no static plays.
34:46The Patriots last year, you know, about like 40% of their plays.
34:49There may be a ship, but not much else with the Lions, with all these top offenses, the
34:54Ravens, like you don't really know who's got the ball because there's so much moving around
34:58where guys are going in different directions.
35:00Guys are in motion.
35:01And then obviously not really a threatened with the Lions, but you look at like the bills
35:05with Josh Allen, where their shotgun run game is terrifying.
35:08You literally have no idea what's going on because there's linemen pulling their skill
35:12players pulling, and there's a lot to process.
35:14So on top of the obvious things be, you know, uh, secure the ball.
35:18Don't have the fumbles and all those kinds of things play tough.
35:22All of those, like, yes.
35:23What Mayo said, you want to be able to run the ball with Brables repeated it too.
35:26Yes.
35:27You want to always be those things, but offensively, I'd like to see them really stress out defenses
35:32by just putting so much on their plate.
35:34And then with the Patriots defense, honestly, I just want you to get back to basics, be
35:38the type of defense where when other teams study you, it's like, damn, these guys are
35:43really well coached.
35:43They don't get picked off.
35:44The communication's great.
35:46And it just seems like everything flows because I remember looking at other defenses and I
35:50used to make fun of them and just be like, oh my God, you see this guy get blown up when
35:54the pick was obvious.
35:55Come on, man.
35:56Couldn't be the Patriots last year.
35:58That's exactly who they were.
35:59I just want to be able to put on the film and be excited to watch defense again, because
36:04I'm going to be honest outside of the explosives and everything they did bad.
36:07I like stopped watching full games for the defense.
36:10I'm like, this is just bad football.
36:11This ain't fun.
36:12Let me know enough to do my job, but I am not going to chart this crap.
36:16This is not real football.
36:17So back to basics, defensively, offensively, just be a nightmare to prepare for.
36:22Yeah, I'm with you.
36:24And I think, again, it speaks to the team building philosophy we're kind of hitting
36:28at.
36:28You have to build in the trenches if you want to play that simple style defensively,
36:32right?
36:32Reinforce that.
36:33It cannot be Devon Gottschall in company, but sometimes even then he's not up to be
36:36a lead actor, let's say, in that room or in that defense.
36:40Offensively, what that also speaks to is Drake May's apparent superpower of being
36:45his brain.
36:46Okay, it's great that he can scramble and run off or he can do some boot stuff and he
36:49can throw the ball 70 yards from the far hash to the opposite sideline.
36:53But ultimately, if he's in the gun a little bit more and I think can kind of dissect
36:58defenses or get some more hints in a way while blending that with some under center
37:02dropback play action game, that all feels very McDaniels-esque and specifically with
37:07Brady, which is not to compare the two.
37:08It's just to say that when you've got a smart quarterback who's processing so quickly,
37:13let him do that more often than not.
37:15Give him the tools to do so.
37:17Now, to your point about Alex Van Pelt and I think the limitations, I think the roster
37:20also limited a lot of what he wanted to do, right?
37:22He would have introduced more of that playbook.
37:24Told me week, I don't know, 14, I said, hey, how much of your playbook's on film?
37:27Like, what are you not done?
37:29He's like 85%.
37:30That 15% is probably really freaking helpful considering it's probably the most complex
37:34in the playbook.
37:35I'm third down.
37:36It's all the runs.
37:38He couldn't trust them sometimes to reach the second level on inside zone, and you're
37:43just like, why would I ask you to do these 400 level concepts if we just can't get our
37:48ABCs down?
37:50And so the way you do that with a largely same roster, again, is to bring in more veterans
37:54who are experienced.
37:55I think the Patriots can do that on both sides of the ball.
37:57I'm curious what they'll do on defense because there is more experience there.
38:00And I think you still want to stay man heavy with a tentpole player like Christian Gonzalez,
38:05but you need the corners opposite him to be able to play man to man as well and want to
38:10stay flexible.
38:10So I'm more open to that.
38:12But I think just putting more in Drake May's plate and building out with your complexity
38:17is a good idea offensively.
38:19Anything else we added in on this?
38:20Think about what the Commanders did this season, what the Patriots may or may not do next season.
38:24I'll throw one at you.
38:25The schedule is finally going to be a big help, and the Patriots schedule this year
38:28is easier than everyone projected and expected, and that'll happen year to year.
38:33But here are some teams on their schedule coming up in nine to 10 months.
38:36The Browns, the Panthers, the Raiders, the Giants, the Titans, the Saints, and God love
38:45them, the Jets twice.
38:47So I don't expect much to surprise me about those teams, maybe one or two or three.
38:53But this is a Patriots team that I think, between the cap room, the young quarterbacks
38:58here, the reinforcer, culture builder, head coach, and everything else that we got going
39:03from top five pick, the path is clear.
39:06You just have to build the car enough that it can go forward and break when you need
39:10to and go when you hit the gas.
39:12What did Mike Vrabel say?
39:13He wants to be a team that takes advantage of bad football.
39:17At least right now, a lot can change in the offseason, right?
39:20Right there.
39:20A lot.
39:21And the Patriots right now are the least talented team in the league.
39:23We're talking about it.
39:24A lot of resources.
39:25They could be a very different team this time next year.
39:27So don't want to get too too ahead of ourselves.
39:29But if they are that team where another team makes a mistake, not only are we going to
39:34capitalize by just getting the possession, we're also going to walk down score points.
39:38Actually, when an opponent fumbles, we're going to recover it.
39:40We're not just going to stand around while the other team goes and falls on the grenades.
39:44So if they are that kind of team and they can be advantageous, and then on top of it,
39:48Drake may another year.
39:50Hopefully just the discipline overall is tightened up.
39:52That's why I really do think they could have that commander's type season, because yes,
39:56it's going to take a lot of luck, but they're probably going to be walking in the season
39:59with a ton of luck just because of how things worked out with their schedule.
40:03What else do you think about May and your two like the discipline?
40:06You know, I've talked about like, okay, empower like process as much as possible.
40:10What else do you think we'll see from him?
40:11Or do you want to see from him next year?
40:13I want to see for one.
40:15I will say the way he ended the season.
40:17I didn't love.
40:18I thought he had some of his worst games.
40:20That was a little discouraging where now I kind of talk about what he could be.
40:23I'm like, top 10, 12, just because you can't ignore that, right?
40:27You started to see some of the mistakes crept up a little bit.
40:29The inaccuracy were like Austin Hooper.
40:32I think he had four out targets or stick targets.
40:34Every single one was behind him.
40:36And one of them, they couldn't convert a fork down because it was behind and he couldn't
40:39adjust.
40:39Like, I want to see the consistency, not only in his execution, but also in the ball security.
40:45We made a lot, not even excuses for him.
40:47He was a rookie.
40:47We understood a lot of the turnovers he committed or turnover where the plays were different
40:51circumstances.
40:52Sometimes he wasn't on the same pages, guys.
40:54Sometimes it was a wild miss like in the Texans game, but that never happened again.
40:58Bonehead decisions like trying to throw away and getting picked off against the bears,
41:01eliminate the ones that are really egregious.
41:04And then just bring that turnover worthy play number down.
41:06It was a strength in college.
41:07Let's get back to there.
41:08But really it's just consistency because we know the ceiling is very high.
41:12He showed a level of football that I don't even think I thought he was capable of as
41:16a rookie.
41:17So if he can continue to have that success, but also obviously wean away from some of
41:21the negatives, that's where I really think he takes a step.
41:24And you're saying, okay, Brable and may.
41:26Yeah.
41:27We're talking about a potential like top eight duo up in terms of head coach and quarterback
41:30in the NFL.
41:32He's one of the guys.
41:33Cause we heard this from Drodd all the time and a ton of other coaches too.
41:37And coaches just say this word probably too much where consistency actually should be
41:42the goal because consistency for him means playing well.
41:46Often consistency for most of the rest of the team.
41:48It's not the solution because you consistently suck.
41:51That's not good.
41:52That's bad in his case.
41:53Yes.
41:54He needed to be more consistent.
41:55I think, and that's to be smoothed out over the course of time and growth.
41:58And to your point about the turnovers, I was just never going to kill him for that stuff.
42:03Given all the circumstances, how young he was inexperienced, he was, and what he was
42:06also doing to power the offense.
42:08He was not just the driver.
42:10He was the engine.
42:11I will say though, his play under pressure waned in the last few games, Buffalo, then
42:18you had the chargers.
42:20And again, he's not getting a whole lot of help, but that stuff that early in games,
42:23he was doing really well, handling his business, taking hits and later would either just walk
42:28into sacks or be more inaccurate and a little bit more erratic.
42:30And I think stuff that you can control, even if it gets harder.
42:32So I think that he's a really tough kid.
42:35I think he's a really smart kid.
42:37I want him to continue to push those limits in a way that we saw him try to push limits
42:42on the field.
42:42Can I get away with this throw?
42:44Can I find that guy at this angle on the move, et cetera, et cetera.
42:47Push yourself mentally because he knows he's good.
42:50He's not chasing good anymore.
42:51He's chasing great.
42:52Go do that.
42:53All right.
42:54Do we leave anything else out?
42:56I don't think so.
42:56I think we covered everything.
42:58Good job by us.
42:59Well done.
43:00Yeah.
43:01All right.
43:02At the risk of these teams, because I'm going to spring this on you already being eliminated
43:06by the time this episode is out.
43:08Any Superbowl thoughts you could do to one team, a pick a matchup or what?
43:12Something you just want to see no prediction.
43:14Just this would be awesome to see team X or Y or whatever.
43:18I think Ravens Lions.
43:19The Ravens are just loaded this year, man.
43:21I just think they're too talented.
43:22I think Josh Allen's playing at another level, but I think the Ravens push past them.
43:26And I think even though the Chiefs are the Chiefs, there's a whole lot of reasons why
43:30you shouldn't bet against them, especially in the playoffs.
43:32But again, I think the Ravens are loaded and Lamar is playing out of his mind.
43:36And then from the NFC, I need the Lions.
43:38I need it.
43:39I need a serious NFC contender.
43:41They've done everything the right way.
43:43They're already on the trajectory, and I think they look like the best team in the NFC.
43:47So Ravens Lions.
43:49Also, for an offseason where we're saying the Patriots need to reinforce the trenches,
43:52that game is going to be a very good example of, yeah, old school football still wins championships.
43:58And I'll say too, like for all these front offices, Lions are on an all-time draft eater.
44:02Like just pick any era, any GM.
44:05I don't care how many Hall of Famers you want to stack up.
44:08Like this team is up there with anybody.
44:10The Eagles have drafted exceptionally well, obviously, and their rookies are helping out
44:13right now.
44:14The Rams completely remade their defense.
44:16Oh, they're amazing.
44:17Unbelievable.
44:18Ravens, always good and up there.
44:20Bills, you know, so-and-so.
44:21Chiefs can afford to hit and miss with Patrick Mahomes.
44:24But the Texans have also drafted really well.
44:25So like there's a lesson to be learned, as there often is come mid-January.
44:29The best teams are built through the draft.
44:30So this doesn't really dovetail with the rest of what we're talking about.
44:34It's like, let these veterans get a bigger head coach, build out the offense.
44:38But it's just a reminder.
44:39Like also, sometimes this thing takes time in the NFL.
44:43So we'll see.
44:44Taylor, a pleasure as always.
44:45Great work by you.
44:46I hope you enjoy the games that have already been played by the time people get to listen
44:50to this.
44:50We will have you back.
44:51Enjoy the offseason.
44:52And all my best, my man.
44:54Thanks, buddy.
44:54Appreciate you.