Population Multiplies Everything | #OvercomingOvershoot S1E5 | EarthX - video Dailymotion

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EarthX Website: https://earthxmedia.com/   Enjoy this blast from the past from the EarthX Archives. #OvercomingOvershoot was one of the first shows we produced and aired back in 2020. EarthX Media has grown a lot since then, but we still like to look back on these insightful conversations and see how far we've come.    William Ryerson, founder and president of The Population Media Center, and Environmental Activist, Florence Blondel, discuss how several problems facing humanity are exacerbated by human population.   About #OvercomingOvershoot:  #OvercomingOvershoot takes a deep look at the myriad symptoms of ecological overshoot by way of thoughtful conversations with experts and visionaries exploring not only what’s going wrong but also what solution pathways are available to overcome overshoot. Moderated by eco-rockstar, Gary Wockner, this show will serve as an essential hub to connect people from around the world on this most pressing concern.   EarthX  Love Our Planet.  The Official Network of Earth Day.    About Us:  At EarthX, we believe our planet is a pretty special place. The people, landscapes, and critters are likely unique to the entire universe, so we consider ourselves lucky to be here. We are committed to protecting the environment by inspiring conservation and sustainability, and our programming along with our range of expert hosts support this mission. We’re glad you’re with us.     EarthX is a media company dedicated to inspiring people to care about the planet. We take an omni channel approach to reach audiences of every age through its robust 24/7 linear channel distributed across cable and FAST outlets, along with dynamic, solution oriented short form content on social and digital platforms. EarthX is home to original series, documentaries and snackable content that offer sustainable solutions to environmental challenges. EarthX is the only network that delivers entertaining and inspiring topics that impact and inspire our lives on climate and sustainability.       EarthX Website: https://earthxmedia.com/    Follow Us:  Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/earthxmedia/  LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/earthxmedia  Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/EarthXMedia/  TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@earthxmedia  YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@EarthXMedia      How to watch:   United States:   - Spectrum  - AT&T U-verse (1267)  - DIRECTV (267)  - Philo  - FuboTV  - Plex  - Fire TV    #EarthDay #Environment #Sustainability #EcoFriendly #Conservation #EarthX

Transcript

00:00:30Hi, I'm Gary Wapner, and I am the host of Overcoming Overshoot on EarthX TV.

00:00:45Today's episode is about the uncomfortable topic that a lot of people don't want to talk

00:00:50about, population growth.

00:00:52But by the time we're done, it's going to be more comfortable for you, and more people

00:00:56are going to be talking about it, which is our goal.

00:00:59I have two amazing guests today, and I'm really excited to have this conversation.

00:01:03First is Bill Ryerson, who's had a long career working on the issue of population

00:01:08growth and currently is the director of the Population Media Center, as well as a board

00:01:13member of the Population Institute.

00:01:16Bill, welcome to the show.

00:01:17You're in Vermont today, right?

00:01:18I'm in Vermont.

00:01:19Yes, I've been in Vermont now for about 40 years.

00:01:24And my other guest is Florence Blondel, who formerly worked for Population Matters in

00:01:32the UK and has a master's degree in population and development from the London School of

00:01:37Economics. Florence is a digital media specialist and a blogger on the topic of

00:01:42population. Florence, you're from Uganda, but today you're in North Carolina, is that

00:01:48correct? Yes, born and bred in Uganda.

00:01:52OK, great.

00:01:53Well, I'm in Colorado.

00:01:55There's a map of the Indian Peaks Wilderness Area right behind me.

00:01:58And of course, EarthX is in Dallas.

00:01:59So this is really, you know, the magic of the Internet and Zoom here brings us all

00:02:04together today. Population was one of the biggest issues that we dealt with on Earth

00:02:11Day in 1970, but it's still a huge issue and still a hard conversation to have.

00:02:16We're also going to talk about population in so-called underdeveloped countries and

00:02:21then population growth in developed or higher income countries, too.

00:02:25So are you guys ready to go?

00:02:27All set. Yes.

00:02:29Awesome. So, Bill, let's just start with you a little bit, maybe a little bit about

00:02:35your background and how you got into this work.

00:02:38And if you have any kind of like aha moment where you decided, you know, this has to

00:02:42be like my life's work, which it has been for you.

00:02:45I was a graduate student at Yale University studying ecology and evolutionary biology.

00:02:51And during that time in the late 60s, the faculty of the biology department and the

00:02:58forestry school invited numerous ecologists to come speak about the environmental

00:03:03crisis. And one of those speakers was Paul Ehrlich, a biologist at Stanford University,

00:03:10who in 1968 came and spoke about his brand new book, The Population Bomb.

00:03:17And I read the book before his talk and attended the lecture and then had dinner with

00:03:21him at the home of my advisor, Charles Remington, and was really blown away by what

00:03:29Ehrlich had to say about the influence of population growth on the future prospects of

00:03:35global sustainability.

00:03:37And so then in the following year, I spent quite a bit of time teaching myself about

00:03:44demographics and writing a paper on human population biology for a course that wanted

00:03:52a 15 page paper, but it ended up being 115 pages and became required reading in that

00:03:57course after I submitted it.

00:04:00And in the meantime, that same weekend of Ehrlich's visit, he and Charles Remington, my

00:04:07advisor and an attorney named Dick Bowers founded the organization Zero Population

00:04:13Growth. And then the following year in 1969, I started the fourth chapter in the

00:04:20country and we planned the first Earth Day activities on the Yale campus.

00:04:26And they amazingly got featured in Life Magazine's Earth Day issue in April 1970.

00:04:33And at that point, there was really no looking back.

00:04:35I had become an activist.

00:04:37And while I was still working on a Ph.D., I decided, you know, this is more important

00:04:42than teaching biology at the college level.

00:04:45And I went off to work with the Population Institute and have spent since that time

00:04:52working both globally and domestically.

00:04:55I worked with two Planned Parenthood affiliates to understand how family planning

00:05:00services work, but have mostly been involved in international communications related to

00:05:07family planning and reproductive health issues.

00:05:10And then Florence, you know, very different background, very different personal story.

00:05:16So if you don't mind, please telling us a little bit about your background, how you got

00:05:20into this work and if you had a kind of an aha moment, too, which which, you know, drove

00:05:26you towards this this quest to deal with population growth on the planet.

00:05:31Yes. Thank you, Gary.

00:05:34Well, I come from, well, like I said, born and bred in Uganda and I've just come to the

00:05:41developed world just in 2015 when I went to the UK and I got trapped there.

00:05:47But anyway, yes, my aha moment, I think I've been with it since I was born.

00:05:54I come from a big family, never really had it easy.

00:05:57I experienced everything that is, you know, poverty, hunger, bad menaka, that is, you

00:06:05know, bad menstruation as a young girl, you know, everything that can happen to a young

00:06:10girl who is starting her way out in life without knowing anything, just blind.

00:06:16I have too many siblings, some of whom I don't even know.

00:06:19I can't name my cousins or uncles and aunties.

00:06:23Like my paternal grandfather had 45 children.

00:06:26My father had more than, I don't know, 10, 15.

00:06:31Some I'm yet to find out, actually, because every time I ask them, like there could be

00:06:35actually this other woman who had this child.

00:06:38So, yes, I've grown around all these issues and felt that girls have been disadvantaged

00:06:45in my country, Uganda, and actually on the continent and in sub-Saharan Africa in

00:06:50particular. And so when I trained to be a journalist in Kenya, one professor actually

00:06:55said, some of you are going to report about women's issues.

00:06:59I can see. I was like, OK, why not?

00:07:02Like this is a field that needs to be reported about.

00:07:06It's not reported about enough.

00:07:08So when I joined journalism officially, I did a lot of stories around reproductive

00:07:13health, including HIV.

00:07:15I was reported about environmental issues, looked at the interconnections, and I worked

00:07:21with so many organizations, including the Population Secretariat in Uganda, including

00:07:25UNFPA. So I partnered so much with them doing a series of stories.

00:07:30And really, this just piqued my interest in population issues and issues around

00:07:36development. So this push meant applying finally for a master's, a master's in

00:07:44population and development at the LSE.

00:07:47And I was lucky enough that I got a scholarship.

00:07:50So that's how I ended up there.

00:07:52And the course was really amazing.

00:07:54Like it covered everything that I was doing in my journalism and even more looking at

00:08:00different relationships, mapping out, even making projections.

00:08:04So I really loved that part about it.

00:08:07And so when I was after I finished, I graduated from LSE, as I ended up saying, and I

00:08:12needed to find an organization which was in rhyme with things that I was passionate

00:08:17about. And I was lucky enough, like after a year or two, I found Population Matters

00:08:24because it's after things that I'm passionate about, young girls and women's rights,

00:08:30as well as the environment, they have the mix.

00:08:33So I was just like, wow, this is ideal.

00:08:36So Population Matters, it's a UK-based charity, but of course it has grassroots

00:08:42organizations that it deals with through its Empower to Plan project.

00:08:46I joined them and I've been happy ever since because, you know, globally they work to

00:08:51address population size and environmental sustainability by promoting positive

00:08:55voluntary solutions, things that I strongly believe in because I'm a strong believer in

00:09:01fertility reduction, especially in Uganda, because it's what's characterizing us,

00:09:07childbearing, child-rearing, it's been with us for a long time.

00:09:11I think it needs to stop.

00:09:12So, yeah, that's why I'm here today now.

00:09:17Bill, back to you, you know, because you've been doing this so many years, is there are

00:09:23there a number of programs where young people like Florence can, you know, get bachelor's

00:09:28degrees or master's degree or higher in demography and population studies?

00:09:33I just wonder if we want to send a message to young people watching, which are, you know,

00:09:37probably the majority of our audience who want to get into this topic.

00:09:40Are there, what are sort of the paths into working on this issue?

00:09:45There are many different academic programs.

00:09:48Of course, demography is taught at many universities.

00:09:51Also, there are places like University of North Carolina that have specialties in

00:10:00population studies.

00:10:02And there's public health, of course, taught at many universities.

00:10:06Public health is a great entry point into this field because of understanding both the

00:10:14practice of public health and how it relates to reproductive health.

00:10:18So certainly those are good backgrounds.

00:10:22As I mentioned before, my background is in ecology and understanding ecological systems

00:10:28and population biology is also a very useful background.

00:10:33It doesn't have a whole lot to do with provision of family planning services, but it's a

00:10:38great perspective for understanding the issue of sustainability, which in many ways is the

00:10:44most important issue that we're dealing with in terms of both human health and human

00:10:52rights, as well as environmental issues, because if the ecological system collapses, all

00:10:59bets are off.

00:11:02And Florence, when you were in Uganda, you know, in the United States here, of course,

00:11:08you know, people talk about population growth a lot and they talk about population growth

00:11:12in Africa, of course.

00:11:15Are there a number of people in Uganda and elsewhere in Africa that you have met who are

00:11:20professionally involved in this issue?

00:11:23And are young people getting involved in it, too, or are you kind of an anomaly?

00:11:30No, I'm not actually an outlier.

00:11:31Most people are getting interested and the government is also on board.

00:11:35You know, like I said, we have a population secretariat, our population secretariat, even at

00:11:40university, the population studies, Bill has PMC working there in Uganda.

00:11:46So UNFPA has been on ground for a long time.

00:11:49We always celebrate world population, celebrate, commemorate World Population Day.

00:11:54Practically every Ugandan knows that it exists.

00:11:57We celebrate world environmental day.

00:11:58So we know about these interconnections, like you read our biodiversity report and you see

00:12:04population being listed as a problem.

00:12:06You read anything health related and it's all interconnected.

00:12:11People really know that there is an issue with population.

00:12:14They know our population is growing.

00:12:16They know it's limiting young people from achieving their goals.

00:12:21And young people are also on board, of course, but they need more information.

00:12:25I feel like that is still lacking.

00:12:27Like as a nation, we know we have a problem.

00:12:31We know it's there. It's in our reports, you know, and it's what we are good at anyway,

00:12:35having great reports.

00:12:36But I think we need to communicate it some more so that we know, because there's a lot

00:12:42behind the drive, what's driving our population growth.

00:12:46And some people are just fine because they don't make these interconnections.

00:12:52But yes, people are coming on board.

00:12:54I'm not an outlier, of course.

00:12:56But of course, when you go to most newsrooms, you find that most journalists sometimes shy

00:13:01away from these issues, like, oh, they're a bit technical, a bit complicated.

00:13:05So, yes, that's how I ended up even having two bits, like carrying the environmental

00:13:10desk as well as the health desk.

00:13:12Yes. But yeah, more needs to be done.

00:13:14But it's being reported about.

00:13:17Yeah, it's happening.

00:13:19Bill, tell us a little bit more about the Population Media Center.

00:13:24You're active in a number of different countries around the world.

00:13:27You know, sort of what's your model and what's your theory of change and just kind of how

00:13:31it works?

00:13:32Sure. The factors behind the decision to start Population Media Center, which I founded in

00:13:411998, are very clearly, and a lot of people don't understand this, what's stopping people

00:13:49from using family planning is primarily misinformation and cultural barriers, not lack

00:13:55of access to contraceptive services.

00:13:58And what's driving population growth is, of course, lack of family planning and high

00:14:04desired family size.

00:14:07So, for example, in West Africa, desired family size is actually above the fertility rate.

00:14:14For example, in Nigeria, Africa's most populous country, fertility rates, 5.7 children born

00:14:22to the average woman during her reproductive years.

00:14:26And when women are asked in the Demographic and Health Survey how many children they want,

00:14:30they say seven and men say nine.

00:14:33In Niger, fertility rate is 7.6.

00:14:37Women want 11, men want 13.

00:14:40So high desired fertility is driving large family size.

00:14:45But even in countries and in families where people don't want additional children, lack of

00:14:54use of family planning affects about 225 million women or 450 million, sorry, 225 million

00:15:04women or 450 million men and women.

00:15:08So a huge number of people who don't want an additional child but are not using family

00:15:13planning. And a lot of policymakers have assumed, well, the problem must be lack of

00:15:18access to services.

00:15:20But in fact, in the Demographic and Health Surveys, when people are asked, why aren't you

00:15:24using contraception, the top reasons are, I've heard it's dangerous, my husband's opposed, my

00:15:31religion's opposed, or I think God determines how many children I'm going to have and

00:15:35there's nothing I can do about it.

00:15:36So fatalism and lack of access is only cited by one to two percent.

00:15:42So I started Population Media Center fundamentally to address these issues of

00:15:49misinformation and cultural barriers and to model smaller family norms.

00:15:55And so our theory of change is role modeling is a key way people learn and learn about what

00:16:04the norms are.

00:16:06And I think all of us can think about people who have influenced us.

00:16:10There's a whole study of the psychology of behavior adoption and behavior modification by

00:16:18Stanford psychologist Albert Bandura, who has looked at what makes a role model more or

00:16:26less influential.

00:16:28And what's very clear from his research is that role models similar to me, but slightly

00:16:38aspirational, are the most influential.

00:16:41So, in fact, we create, with the advice of Bandura and others who have studied behavior

00:16:47change, we create long running entertainment serialized dramas on radio and television.

00:16:54And we've done this in over 50 countries.

00:16:57We've reached over 500 million people because these are entertainment shows with

00:17:03cliffhangers at the end of each episode and programs that go on for sometimes 200

00:17:08episodes. And during the time they're on the air, as in all melodrama, there are good and

00:17:15evil characters battling over various issues.

00:17:18And in our formulation, they're middle of the road characters designed to represent

00:17:23segments of the audience.

00:17:25And they gradually sort out the conflicting advice from positive and negative

00:17:30characters. And they gradually evolve into positive role models for the audience on

00:17:36issues like daughter education, stopping child marriage, use of family planning, small

00:17:43family norms, as well as environmentally protective behaviors and other issues.

00:17:49And what we have found is in each country where we're able to attract a large audience

00:17:56and in some countries we've had over half the population in the audience, as these

00:18:02characters evolve and discover the benefits of things like family planning, the audience

00:18:08follows suit. And we're never telling the audience what to do.

00:18:11We're just demonstrating the consequences of different behaviors, positive, negative and

00:18:17these transitional characters and their newly discovered behaviors.

00:18:23And the audience is in love with the characters and intrigued by how their lives are

00:18:28improving by doing things like sending their daughters to school and adopting family

00:18:33planning. And the influence on audience behavior is immense.

00:18:40So to give you just a couple of examples, in Sierra Leone, we did a radio serial drama,

00:18:46radio still the dominant medium in much of sub-Saharan Africa.

00:18:51And it attracted half the population of the country as regular audience members, at

00:18:57least weekly. This was a twice a week show for two years.

00:19:01And at family planning clinics, when new family planning clients were asked what

00:19:08motivated the visit to the clinic, 50 percent of them answered Sally Wonsai, the name of

00:19:14the program. In northern Nigeria, a program that we broadcast across four northern

00:19:20Nigerian states attracted 71 percent of the population.

00:19:25And at 11 clinics that asked new family planning clients why they had come, 67 percent

00:19:31of them named the program.

00:19:34And then one mathematical calculation we did that is really a demonstration of why this

00:19:41strategy is so important.

00:19:44The cost of all 208 episodes in the Nigerian context, the writing, acting, production, the

00:19:51primetime air purchase across the four states and all the survey research costs and clinic

00:19:56interview costs, divided by the number of people who adopted family planning and

00:20:01attributed that decision to the program, came out to 30 cents U.S.

00:20:07So it's the most cost effective strategy we have found for addressing population issues in

00:20:14a human rights context, just by role modeling behaviors and teaching the audience

00:20:19through entertainment the benefits of adopting healthful and sustainable norms.

00:20:27So, Florence, I would say that in Uganda, you are somewhat of a role model for for young

00:20:36women there. And I just wonder, you know, as you've gone through this transition yourself

00:20:41from growing up in a family where the norms were very similar that Bill mentioned, and

00:20:47now you're in a very different position now, what sort of if you'd like to share with us

00:20:51sort of obstacles did you run into?

00:20:54Did any personal stories there about any pressure you felt and how you overcame that?

00:21:00Because, you know, that's kind of I think part of the story that Bill is trying to get

00:21:04across is how individual people can sort of break out and find a new path forward for

00:21:10themselves.

00:21:12Yes, of course, breaking out is important. Obviously, education helped.

00:21:17Uganda, we have low schooling, like the amount of time someone spends in school is less than

00:21:23seven years. So that's horrible. So I was lucky enough that, you know, I got out of that.

00:21:29I finished my school. I reached as far as I do.

00:21:32Not many people finish primary school, actually. Not many finish secondary. There are few,

00:21:37not many progress to university.

00:21:40So all those challenges, we grow with them. But, you know, I was lucky. And of course,

00:21:44there's a high rate of teenage pregnancies in the country, like almost 25, that account

00:21:49for almost 25%.

00:21:51I've seen that happen to some of my friends. I've escaped that. So if you talk about the

00:21:57greatest escape, I've really had that.

00:22:00But I could have been those people because I was orphaned so young.

00:22:04And it's a miracle that I am where I am because most often when people, you know, children

00:22:11lose their parents in Uganda and in a rural area, because it's mostly a rural area, almost

00:22:1680% is rural.

00:22:18You're stuck there. You're stuck in the villages and getting out of that is really hard.

00:22:23Getting out of poverty is so hard. So there's that continuous cycle.

00:22:29I've witnessed child marriages in my journalism. I escaped that. So there are so many things

00:22:35I'm grateful for, by the way, that I escaped.

00:22:37The only thing, you know, I'll say it's personal to me right now because of the pressures of

00:22:42having, you know, children is now that everyone knows that I'm married.

00:22:46Everyone is just wondering, where is your baby? You've been married for what? Coming

00:22:51to five years.

00:22:52So it's like once you enter marriage in Uganda, like the first year.

00:22:57Baby. Baby to prove that you're fertile, that you can give a man, a child that you're

00:23:03African.

00:23:04Trust me, some people think I'm an African at the moment because I do not have, you know,

00:23:09a child after being, you know, married for almost five years.

00:23:12So there is that pressure, but I don't give into that because I don't go like, I have

00:23:18to make the choice, you know, in my own time.

00:23:20And that's the problem we have.

00:23:21We rush, not rush, we are forced into it because most of us, you know, are forced into

00:23:26early marriages when we are so young.

00:23:29And remember, Uganda has a population which is like, what, almost 60% are under 17 years.

00:23:35So you can imagine our median age is about 17, actually.

00:23:40Compare that to countries in the UK where the median age is now, what, 40.

00:23:44Others, it's even higher as 50.

00:23:47So ours is a young population.

00:23:49So there's a lot to grapple with as a young girl in the country.

00:23:54When you're sold off, child marriages, early child marriage, that's really, it has been

00:23:58coming down, but it's still a huge problem.

00:24:01Like any child really being, I call it selling because you're sold off practically.

00:24:06There's no one who just goes willingly.

00:24:07It's ripped practically, actually, but it's happening.

00:24:11So.

00:24:13Bill, I'm wondering in your work, and maybe both of you can sort of chime in on this.

00:24:17Do you find that the message of giving young people, and especially young women, more rights

00:24:26and opportunities resonates more, and or is it about environmental sustainability and

00:24:33the impacts on nature and wild nature?

00:24:35I mean, how do you kind of tease out which message is the most powerful to, like, influence

00:24:41the most people?

00:24:42I don't think many people make family-sized decisions based on global demographic trends

00:24:48or environmental threats of growing population.

00:24:52These are concepts that are sort of removed from people's day-to-day thinking.

00:24:58They're making decisions, as Florence was saying, based on social norms and what's expected

00:25:05of them.

00:25:05And we know social norms can change.

00:25:09We've seen changes in many societies around the world, and particularly in the population

00:25:16area in Asia in the last half century, a dramatic change in desired family size and actual

00:25:24fertility rate.

00:25:25And the Asian tigers, the economic growth that has occurred as a result of lower fertility

00:25:32growth that has occurred as a result of lower fertility rate is one of the major factors

00:25:40that has made Asian countries so wealthy.

00:25:43So, helping people understand both the health and economic welfare benefits of smaller family

00:25:53size through storytelling and modeling smaller family norms as socially acceptable is key

00:26:05to changing the situation in places like Uganda.

00:26:11And certainly, many people have no understanding of the fact that lower fertility rate is one

00:26:20of the major drivers of economic development and improved family financial welfare.

00:26:28They often think, well, if I have 10 children, maybe one of them will turn out to be Bill

00:26:32Gates.

00:26:33But the chances of that happening are pretty low when they can't afford to send them to

00:26:40school.

00:26:41And as we saw with the demographic dividend in Asia, as people had fewer children, they

00:26:50had more money left over from the costs of food, housing, and clothing, and they could

00:26:56invest in education.

00:26:57They could invest in elective goods that stimulated the manufacturing sector.

00:27:05And the slowing rate of people entering the labor force led to rising wages, which created

00:27:13a middle class.

00:27:14And the ability of people to save money improved, thus creating capital in the marketplaces

00:27:21that businesses could borrow and use to expand, which drove up employment.

00:27:27So, all of these factors have been dubbed the demographic dividend.

00:27:33And in fact, there's no developing country since World War II that has gone from developing

00:27:39to developed without first addressing fertility rates and family planning.

00:27:45So, in places like Uganda, where, as Florence mentioned, in the north, in Karamoja, people

00:27:52may be having seven children, they're mired in poverty and uneducated because of high

00:27:59fertility rate.

00:28:01People don't understand this.

00:28:03There are certainly economists who think that the more people there are, the more consumers

00:28:09there will be.

00:28:09But in fact, if people are too poor to consume, it doesn't improve the economy.

00:28:15So, helping people understand the personal benefits of small family norms is really key

00:28:21to changing these norms.

00:28:25You know, I'm wondering, kind of as Bill was talking about, in Uganda specifically, now

00:28:30you've done work in Kenya too, is the government more active in some countries than others

00:28:38in terms of like trying to move this demographic transition forward and trying to educate people

00:28:44on the ground about fertility rate and family size?

00:28:48Yes, but many African countries have adopted population policies that are enlightened.

00:28:54Uganda, for example, as Florence mentioned, has a National Population Commission and a

00:28:59population secretariat.

00:29:01Jotham Musungusi convinced the president of Uganda, Museveni, that there is a huge economic

00:29:12benefit to lower fertility rate.

00:29:14And the president appointed him to run the National Population Council, and their policy

00:29:20is to promote smaller family norms and use of family planning.

00:29:24So, certainly that country in particular has recognized the importance at a policy

00:29:30level of achieving population stabilization.

00:29:34Some countries have not, and certainly in West Africa, there's still a lot of resistance

00:29:41to the idea of promoting family planning and small family norms.

00:29:47Florence, you just mentioned the slum near Nairobi, and when I was in Nairobi, I didn't

00:29:54go into the slum, but I was near it.

00:29:55And of course, it's sort of world-renowned, that particular slum, because it has something

00:30:01like well over a million people in it.

00:30:03And as a Westerner, as a person in the United States, you can like look at pictures in a

00:30:08book and you can say, oh, this is what it looks like.

00:30:11But I wonder if you could just, you know, from your own personal experience, if you

00:30:15could just, you know, from your own personal experience of being there, you know, just

00:30:19tell us what that slum is like and what it's like to be there.

00:30:24And sort of, I guess what this kind of the mindset of the people who are living there,

00:30:29because it seems really foreign to people in the United States.

00:30:32And I bet most of the listeners of this podcast.

00:30:37Oh, well, I didn't even have to go to Kenya to see their slums because they're all over

00:30:42Uganda and they are creeping up even in Kampala, which is, you know, the capital.

00:30:47So slums are informal settlements and they are characterized by, you know, being ignored

00:30:54in terms of health.

00:30:55So sometimes you could find that someone in an urban slum is worse off than someone in

00:31:00a rural area, you know, either in Nairobi, you know, in Kenya or in Uganda and in any

00:31:05other country.

00:31:06Their access to contraception is much harder than even people in the villages.

00:31:12So, yes, being in a slum, it's not an easy feat.

00:31:16It's survival for the fittest.

00:31:17They are squeezed together.

00:31:18And now during these times of COVID, I really wonder how that's happening.

00:31:23And there is open defecation.

00:31:25It happens.

00:31:26Well, if you're out in areas like Karamoja, whereby they're spread out, you know, it's

00:31:30not easy really to contract a disease.

00:31:32But here they're all squeezed together.

00:31:34So it's much easier to contract if there is a contagious disease.

00:31:39Yes, slums are characterized by, you know, lack of access to water and sanitation.

00:31:44You find that, I don't know, many households sharing just one latrine.

00:31:50I'm not even saying toilet latrine.

00:31:52I don't know if Americans know what latrines are.

00:31:55But most people are used to, you know, flushing toilets.

00:31:58But yes, we have mostly latrines.

00:31:59Of course, now we're getting into constructing toilets.

00:32:02But then the water is a problem.

00:32:04So there's a lot of waste which goes into the rivers.

00:32:09And in fact, I was working on a project there with some boys who are involved in waste management.

00:32:16Waste management in the slum.

00:32:18And we were supporting them because they had a program whereby they meet as, you know,

00:32:24there are people in the community.

00:32:25They give them some advice on family planning and give them condoms.

00:32:30But also look at, you know, how to manage waste and clear even Nairobi River.

00:32:35And there were other guys that I was working with in Korogocho slum.

00:32:38Another slum also in Nairobi.

00:32:40One of the fourth largest actually in the country.

00:32:43And they're also, you know, clearing the environment, clearing the river.

00:32:47And you can see, you know, what they do.

00:32:49And you know what stood out for me with the other slum in Korogocho is that

00:32:53they said they're always picking babies out of the rivers.

00:32:59Dead, dead.

00:33:01Yeah, yeah.

00:33:01Dead, dead.

00:33:02Like almost every week they pick about five.

00:33:06They remove about, you know, so and they're calling.

00:33:08And then like we told them, do you know what the problem is?

00:33:12Like, well, girls are getting pregnant.

00:33:14Girls these days, they don't care.

00:33:15But you know, this stems from, you know, a lot of problems, including, you know,

00:33:20having no access to sexuality education.

00:33:23You know, it's a major, major issue out there.

00:33:26You know, so young girls, they end up having unsafe abortions,

00:33:30which is really a huge, huge problem.

00:33:33And then recently, Kenya, Uganda and some other countries,

00:33:37including the USA, actually just signed a Geneva congressional something on,

00:33:43you know, preventing abortions or not supporting any country at all that,

00:33:47you know, carries out abortion and stuff like that.

00:33:50But I feel like we are just barring our heads under the sun.

00:33:53And abortions mostly happen in those informal settlements.

00:33:56And they are unsafe.

00:33:58And they're increasing.

00:34:00They contribute greatly to maternal mortality rates, which are very high out there.

00:34:05So these are things we are ignoring.

00:34:07But they are happening in those slums, especially.

00:34:10So most people go hungry in slums, you know.

00:34:13And, you know, Florence, I wonder,

00:34:16you know, in Uganda and the other areas that you worked in in Africa, have you

00:34:22I mean, how do you perceive, like, the influence of the United States?

00:34:25You mentioned that, you know, American policy

00:34:28has an impact on family planning and birth control and those kinds of things.

00:34:32How do you see it sort of playing out there,

00:34:35whether America is engaged on these issues or not engaged?

00:34:39And, you know, sort of the transition we've saw the last few years?

00:34:44Well, America has been, of course, a great partner.

00:34:48But the latest, I don't know, the global gag rule has been quite an impediment.

00:34:55Because when the president signed it, it has told a bit of progress.

00:35:00So real quick, tell us what the global gag rule is.

00:35:04And just some background on that.

00:35:06We have UNFPA working so much in our countries.

00:35:09Marie Stopes, all of these, they no longer receive the sufficient funding

00:35:14because they assist, you know, with abortion-related services, you know.

00:35:20And like I say, abortion is a problem, honestly.

00:35:22In Uganda, I think about 300,000 abortions are carried out per year.

00:35:29And most of them are unsafe.

00:35:31And they lead to, you know, maternal mortality.

00:35:35They're a great contributor.

00:35:38So, yes, while the US has been supporting us for a long time,

00:35:40I feel like the global gag rule is really gagging us.

00:35:44And I want to make a little transition to kind of a delicate topic.

00:35:49But we're going to talk about it.

00:35:51You know, Florence, you became a little bit even more famous a few weeks ago, or recently,

00:35:59because you wrote a very provocative blog on Earth Overshoot Day.

00:36:03And it was on their website.

00:36:04And it got shared very widely.

00:36:07And I don't know if you know exactly how widely it got shared.

00:36:10But it got shared very widely.

00:36:12And a lot of people know your name and know your face now.

00:36:16And so you chose to speak out about the issue of population growth in your home country,

00:36:23and how people aren't talking about it, and sort of why people aren't talking about it,

00:36:30including some of the names people get called when they talk about population growth.

00:36:37So tell us a little bit about, you know, you called it a rant.

00:36:43You're just fed up.

00:36:45I was ranting.

00:36:47And you said that's it.

00:36:49Go ahead.

00:36:50Tell us about this blog.

00:36:51Honestly, the world's population is expected to grow by almost 2 billion people between now and 2050.

00:36:58It's doubling in Africa, you know, and sub-Saharan Africa in particular,

00:37:04including, you know, Uganda, you know, Nigeria, those big countries.

00:37:08And of course, Uganda's unprecedented growth.

00:37:11I don't know if I've already mentioned, it's about 3 to 3.5 percent per year,

00:37:14the annual population growth.

00:37:16So for a country like mine, it means that the population is going to be doubling

00:37:20even every 20, 23, 25 years.

00:37:24And for me, it means just one thing.

00:37:25And already I mentioned that, you know, 60 percent of the population

00:37:30is under 17 years in most districts, you know, 60 percent.

00:37:36So for me, this means one thing.

00:37:38Young girls and women in my country and in sub-Saharan Africa, actually, in general,

00:37:42are shackled to childbearing and childrearing.

00:37:46You know, our fertility transition, granted, started way too late.

00:37:48And it's told, and I've already mentioned the reasons why this is happening.

00:37:52There's a lot of patriarchy, you know, polygamy, male dominancy,

00:37:57desire to have a male child, you know.

00:38:01I was in Kenya and these women we met were telling us,

00:38:06wow, there is this particular tribe.

00:38:07Well, it's all tribes, I must say.

00:38:10You get a girl, you're going to be kicked out of the house if a boy doesn't come.

00:38:14So, you know, you keep on being a childbearer until you die or until the boy comes.

00:38:22And trust me, all this is having an impact on our girls and women.

00:38:27The cost is so high.

00:38:28And the cost is maternal mortality.

00:38:31Most of them are dying in childbirth or during pregnancy, you know,

00:38:34pregnancy-related causes.

00:38:35It's so high.

00:38:36Nigeria, I think a country like Nigeria, has over 900 per every 100,000, you know, live birth.

00:38:42In Uganda, it has just come down, but we are still as high as 300-something.

00:38:46In the developed world, it's 100, I think it's even below 10 per every 100,000.

00:38:52So why can't we get to these levels?

00:38:56You know, fertility is high.

00:38:57Women are just producing year in, year out, year in, year out.

00:39:02And they're starting young.

00:39:03Because like I said, girls are married off or even, you know, they just start engaging

00:39:09in relationships.

00:39:10Because if you can't finish school, because most of us drop out at primary level,

00:39:14what else is there for you to do?

00:39:16There's a lot of poverty.

00:39:18Your parents prefer you to just go and be with a man.

00:39:22I've met young girls in Kamuli district in eastern Uganda, where it's a huge problem.

00:39:29They start giving birth as early as 13, 14, and they'll carry with it.

00:39:33And their parents are like, hello, we've also experienced that.

00:39:35That's what we've been through.

00:39:37So for me, you know, population growth means just one thing, tying women down to just,

00:39:43you know, being child bearers.

00:39:46And other things matter to us.

00:39:48And like you'd ask, does climate change matter in Uganda?

00:39:53You know, does biodiversity matter in Uganda?

00:39:56All of the things matter.

00:39:57And even if you may think of, you know, per capita consumption, we are nowhere near the

00:40:01UK or the US, but we are experiencing these changes.

00:40:05Uganda's seasons are getting wetter.

00:40:08You know, there are frequent droughts.

00:40:11Our wetlands are disappearing because, you know, people are looking for land, for agriculture.

00:40:16Forest cover loss in many districts is as high as, you know, 50 percent.

00:40:21Some at 70.

00:40:23In my own Mayuge district at 100 percent.

00:40:26Some have totally been decimated.

00:40:28You know, the glaciers on Mount Renzori are also disappearing.

00:40:32And all of this is going to impact agriculture, which is our main backbone.

00:40:36Subsistence farming, we rely on it, you know.

00:40:40And there's so many of us.

00:40:42And this, for me, I feel like it's impacting women the most.

00:40:46So all of these factors, even which are happening, you know, clearing forests and a lot of these,

00:40:51we are likely to see an increase in malaria prevalence, which is a huge problem and which

00:40:56mostly affects women because, you know, we are always pregnant, always having children

00:41:03and diseases.

00:41:03We still have high HIV burden.

00:41:05We still have high malaria prevalence.

00:41:08All of these mixed.

00:41:09They affect the children the most.

00:41:12They affect the pregnant women.

00:41:14And we do not want to go back.

00:41:16We've started reducing mortality, you know, under five mortality.

00:41:20If we go back to such, because when people die, people want to give birth to more people.

00:41:25And that has been the problem in the past.

00:41:27Historically, they die.

00:41:29You're like, OK, let me have seven.

00:41:30I might lose three.

00:41:31I might lose five.

00:41:32We've really come out of that hole whereby people are like, seven, four will die, three

00:41:40will be saved.

00:41:41And, you know, so I don't want us to go back there.

00:41:44And it's the women who are suffering the most.

00:41:46This is affecting us.

00:41:47So anyway, is it racist if someone comes up with humane, voluntary solutions without compulsion,

00:41:54by the way, because that's very important to reduce this growth, you know, increase

00:41:59contraceptive prevalence, employ young girls and women through quality education, greater

00:42:04economic independence, ensure they can have urgency.

00:42:08You know, we don't have this decision autonomy to just, you know, choose our path.

00:42:13We don't have that.

00:42:15We want to see us getting out of poverty, which is driving child marriages, like a predecessor

00:42:21is driving teenage pregnancies.

00:42:23And it's also driving the total fertility rate in the country.

00:42:27So, yeah, I don't see it as racist.

00:42:31Racism does exist.

00:42:32That is a fact.

00:42:33But you have people calling people racist, genius, like no one wants anyone to die.

00:42:37We don't mind the numbers which are already here.

00:42:40We need to plan for them, actually, which is also a problem, actually, that we have back

00:42:43home.

00:42:44Like Bill mentioned, I think the demographic did it somewhere.

00:42:47So, you know, we need all of that.

00:42:49We need the enlightenment that has already been experienced by young girls and women

00:42:54in Europe, in North America, and now in Asia.

00:42:57You know, we need all of this.

00:42:59We are yet to have the social and economic development that has favoured high-income

00:43:04countries, you know, helping them keep their low fertility, helping them see their women

00:43:09go to schools, access different services, and have a voice.

00:43:14Trust me, you'll find a woman out there, she's even afraid to go and talk to a doctor

00:43:19because she can't express herself.

00:43:21And we know for a fact that education is very, very helpful.

00:43:26It takes women out of a lot of issues.

00:43:29Like, if you're educated, you're able to decide for yourself whether, you know, you

00:43:33take contraceptives.

00:43:34If you have a child, you're likely to educate your child.

00:43:36You are likely to, you know, to offer good nutrition to the child.

00:43:42The high rate of stuntedness in Uganda actually has just come down.

00:43:46It was about 30 percent.

00:43:47Now it's at around 28 point something percent, which is still bad.

00:43:51So many of us malnourished, undernourished.

00:43:54And of course, we have now the double burden of disease coming in as well.

00:43:58So we are going to be seeing a bit of obesity out there.

00:44:01But so I don't see really a problem if someone is coming with these human solutions, whether

00:44:07that person is white, whether that person is black or brown or purple.

00:44:11Like, I do not see an issue.

00:44:13And I wish people could just stop tying in the racism.

00:44:17Of course, I talked about compulsion.

00:44:20Historically, population has had a bit of problems.

00:44:23When there was the one child policy in China forcing people, I know that came out a bit

00:44:30in India during Mrs. Gandhi's time.

00:44:33But right now, no, people are right to worry about, you know, the moral aspects of talking

00:44:39about, you know, population and talking about people's homes and stuff like that.

00:44:43But, hey, Americans, do you want to see us continue just giving birth year in, year out,

00:44:49dying, not having education, being tied into poverty?

00:44:53No, seriously, is that what's happening out here?

00:44:56I would love to know.

00:44:57Although I just discovered that over 240,000 children are married here legally, children

00:45:04in America.

00:45:05So that's also a shocker to me.

00:45:06Those are things I would love to see ending.

00:45:09Young girls always and women pushed into this.

00:45:13So it just makes me go into a rant.

00:45:15I hope I didn't just go into a rant right now.

00:45:17No, no, that was a wonderful rant.

00:45:21And thank you very much for giving it to us.

00:45:25Certainly, I think the name calling, which is not unique to America, but particularly

00:45:32prevalent in this country, is an issue.

00:45:36And I think Florence really nailed it in terms of how to address the issue in the context

00:45:42of the reality of people's lives.

00:45:44Florence talked about child marriage.

00:45:47In northern Nigeria, it is typical for girls to be sold into marriage at age 10, 11 or

00:45:5512, and they start having children as soon as they're fertile.

00:46:00And they suffer often because they're not physically ready to be bearing children as

00:46:07children themselves.

00:46:08They often suffer severe problems from trying to deliver.

00:46:17Obstructed labor can go on for days, and the pressure can kill enough tissue that it leaves

00:46:26the woman incontinent.

00:46:28And this condition called obstetric fistula affects tens of millions of women in Nigeria

00:46:35alone, not to mention Uganda and Ethiopia and many other countries.

00:46:40And when girls are kept in school rather than being put into marriage, it changes their

00:46:48whole situation and gives them the ability to determine how many children they want and

00:46:54to play a role in family decisions.

00:46:57And to be much more educated about the benefits of things like family planning and proper

00:47:04nutrition for the children and so on.

00:47:07So when you explain to people that, in fact, people are suffering because of practices

00:47:14like child marriage, a huge human rights violation, and addressing these issues through human

00:47:21rights approaches like girls' education, it changes the conversation because nobody

00:47:29wants to see that.

00:47:31And it's not an issue of somebody telling somebody else what to do, and particularly

00:47:38doing so with racist motivations.

00:47:42But as Florence said, there certainly are people who are racist, and there certainly

00:47:47are people who are concerned about childbearing by people of other races or tribes.

00:47:53And so it is important to call out racism where it exists and to discuss racism and

00:48:01to discuss the reasons that racism persists.

00:48:06But when the work is rooted in a human rights context, it's pretty hard for people to find

00:48:13it as racist.

00:48:14In fact, it's an unmitigated good because it's improving the health and economic welfare

00:48:22of people, as well as preventing child marriage and the violence that goes with that in terms

00:48:31of the impact on the body and the lack of any rights by a girl to decide whom she's

00:48:37going to marry and whether she's going to have children, because she's being brought

00:48:41up by her husband and she has no concept of what her own rights are.

00:48:46So changing the discussion of human rights and women's rights to focus on the importance

00:48:54of the self-efficacy of women is, I think, the most important thing we can respond to

00:49:01people who think this is all racist by pointing out that there is a huge amount of suffering

00:49:08and poverty that can be undone through human rights approaches like stopping child marriage.

00:49:15There's an organization, Population Media Center is a member of, called Girls Not Brides,

00:49:21and they have chapters virtually in every country in the world.

00:49:25People in the world, I knew what child marriage is, but not much more.

00:49:29But then I started looking a bit into the issue and I had no clue how enormously big

00:49:36this problem is.

00:49:39Child marriage violates her rights to a life free of violence and a life of choice.

00:49:54It deprives her of her childhood.

00:49:55By addressing child marriage, we are protecting universal human rights.

00:50:01If you tackle child marriage, you are looking at the cause of maternal and child deaths,

00:50:06you are looking at the cause of diminishing development activities in the country,

00:50:11you are looking at the cause of gender-based violence, you are looking at the cause of

00:50:15sexual and reproductive health issues, you are looking at the cause of the

00:50:19This is the issue all over the world.

00:50:22They're a very important organization in terms of ending this practice of early marriage,

00:50:28which grows out of the belief that girls are a liability.

00:50:33And after spending enough money to raise them to age 10 or 11, it's best to re-educate them.

00:50:39And I think that's a very important part of what we're trying to do.

00:50:44After spending enough money to raise them to age 10 or 11,

00:50:48it's best to recoup the losses by selling them.

00:50:52But when you think about selling a daughter into marriage when she has no education,

00:50:59it is one of the worst human rights violations and it's affecting millions

00:51:05of women around the world every year.

00:51:07So, we see this as a key issue and we've in fact addressed this issue in many countries.

00:51:15For example, in Nepal, we did a program addressing child marriage.

00:51:20Nepal has among the highest rates of child marriage on the planet.

00:51:25And our listeners were more than twice as likely as non-listeners to report intervening to stop

00:51:32a child from being married after they had listened to the program.

00:51:37So, and in Senegal, where we address this issue, our listeners were six times as likely

00:51:46as non-listeners following the program to believe that a woman should be at least

00:51:5118 years old to be married.

00:51:54So, certainly there have been terrible mistakes made in the area of population.

00:52:02And yet, most of what has been accomplished has been totally voluntary.

00:52:08When you look at Europe, outside of Romania, which banned contraception and forced women

00:52:14into pregnancy, most of Europe has achieved very low fertility rates totally voluntarily.

00:52:21And that is true of much of Asia as well, despite the disaster of coercive sterilization

00:52:32in India under Indira Gandhi's tenure and the one-child policy in China, which has now ended.

00:52:39But nevertheless, much of what has been accomplished has been totally voluntary.

00:52:44And when you talk to people about, well, do you use family planning?

00:52:49They say, yes, of course.

00:52:51The question is, what is wrong with helping other people understand the benefits of using

00:52:57family planning, delaying childbearing until adulthood, and spacing of children for better

00:53:04nutrition?

00:53:05You know, this is what this work is all about.

00:53:08Yeah.

00:53:10This is absolutely a human rights issue, which you guys have very eloquently said.

00:53:14It is also absolutely an environmental issue.

00:53:18And so, you know, we got to find some way to normalize this conversation so that environmental

00:53:24groups can have it again too.

00:53:26Florence, what are your thoughts on just like how to tell the story from an environmental

00:53:31perspective?

00:53:32And, you know, I mean, how do you tell American environmentalists, you know, you have to talk

00:53:37about this because look at the impact it's having on my country, et cetera.

00:53:41Almost other environmental organizations ignore the fact that, you know, they're talking about

00:53:45all the causes of, you know, the crisis, the degradation, but they never mentioned

00:53:51population growth.

00:53:53I'm glad that in my country, at least they recognize the fact that it's a problem.

00:53:57For example, there was a survey done in 2015, a national service delivery survey, which

00:54:02found that 40% of the observed degradation of the environment was attributed to the current

00:54:07population growth.

00:54:09And I've already mentioned, I've looked at some countries' biodiversity reports, including

00:54:14Nigeria, where they admit that population growth is contributing immensely to dismission

00:54:19of the forests.

00:54:20Forests are disappearing.

00:54:22There is a lot of overfishing.

00:54:24By the way, Uganda, we export fish here to the US.

00:54:27So our lakes are practically getting depleted and the waters are reducing.

00:54:33Of course, we already have problems with the water hyacinths.

00:54:36So there are these problems and yet the environmental NGOs decide to turn a blind eye to what's

00:54:43driving the pollution, to what's driving this over-exploitation, to what's driving

00:54:50the agriculture, to what's, you know, driving everything.

00:54:53It's humans behind all of this consumption.

00:54:57And that's why, you know, we talk about the Paul Eric's equation, the I part, I equals

00:55:06P-A-T, the impact on the environment, population equals population growth.

00:55:11The affluence that is the rising consumption and technology, mostly the damaging technology.

00:55:16So it's frustrating when most people, especially environmental organisations, think that population

00:55:23has no bearing at all.

00:55:25It does.

00:55:26It does have a bearing.

00:55:27And like one naturalist whom we treasure so much in the UK, sorry, I was staying in the

00:55:32UK for the past five years, so I feel like I'm still part of the UK, that is Sir David

00:55:37Attenborough, who is a patron of Population Matters and is also an ambassador of WWF,

00:55:42by the way.

00:55:42So I wonder if they're going to also suck him.

00:55:45He always talks about population issues and he says, there's a famous quote, all environmental

00:55:50problems become easier to solve with fewer people and harder and ultimately impossible

00:55:57to solve with ever more people.

00:56:00And that is true.

00:56:01It holds.

00:56:02So these organisations should start promoting the solutions that we've already measured

00:56:08with Bill that empower young girls and women, that empower everyone, education, family planning,

00:56:15which Project Drawdown, which is a respectable organisation, they always find solutions to

00:56:22climate change, what is the biggest problem?

00:56:25And they listed educating girls as well as giving family planning as a step forward because

00:56:34education helps, you know, show up resilience and equips young girls and women to face the

00:56:39impacts of climate change.

00:56:42And they are more, you know, empowered.

00:56:45So I feel like we should stop burying our heads in the sand.

00:56:48Yes, American NGOs get on board, UK NGOs, all of the high income countries.

00:56:53And you see, this is where the problem is.

00:56:54When you go to Africa, you find that the environmental organisations out there are more

00:56:58open.

00:56:59And in fact, we partnered during World Population Day with the Nigerian Conservation Foundation

00:57:05when I was in the UK and went to Nigeria.

00:57:08And they were all talking about population growth as a main driving factor behind, you

00:57:14know, all of the problems that are happening to the environment.

00:57:17Yes, consumption is a huge problem.

00:57:19Yes, they are rich people, like the 1% who are consuming all resources, or even them

00:57:23when they're producing, they're also producing for a big population.

00:57:27So we should just stop just saying, oh, it's only consumption, consumption.

00:57:32Population does matter.

00:57:34There's a great example of an organisation that has broken the norm of environmental

00:57:42organisations being silent on population, and that's the Centre for Biological Diversity.

00:57:48They are famous for their endangered species condoms.

00:57:53And they've used that as a humorous way to bring up the population issue and its role

00:57:58in threatening biodiversity.

00:58:01And in fact, the UN Environment Programme last year in 2019, issued a report on the

00:58:08100 million species that are threatened with extinction.

00:58:12And the top reasons they cited were population related.

00:58:17They were expanding human habitation and expanding human farming to feed the growing

00:58:22human population.

00:58:25As Lester Brown used to say, if you visited this planet 3 billion years ago, you would

00:58:30not have survived a minute because you couldn't drink the water, you couldn't breathe the

00:58:34air, and there was no food.

00:58:37The toxic environment would have prevented any human from surviving.

00:58:42And it took 3 billion years of the evolution of the web of life that we now call biodiversity

00:58:51to make the planet habitable.

00:58:53And our expanding population is systematically destroying that web of life and pushing us

00:59:00closer and closer to ecological collapse.

00:59:04And population is the primary driver of that huge environmental threat.

00:59:10It's also, as Florence mentioned, a factor in climate change.

00:59:14It's not the only factor in consumption of energy and other environmental impacts by

00:59:21the West is the major driver.

00:59:24But about 25% of climate change is driven by the growing number of humans.

00:59:30We've got 225,000 people at the dinner table tonight who were not there last night.

00:59:36And tomorrow there'll be another 225,000 people.

00:59:40And all of those people have carbon footprints.

00:59:43So the 2 billion people we're expecting between now and 2050 is the climate equivalent of

00:59:51adding two United States to the planet.

00:59:54It's not the only thing driving climate change, but it's a big factor and can be easily

01:00:01addressed through human rights approaches like girls' education and making family planning

01:00:07information and services available.

01:00:11This has been a wonderful conversation.

01:00:13I could sit here all day and have this conversation with you guys.

01:00:17Hopefully we can have you on the show some other time and talk about some other and newer

01:00:23issues.

01:00:23Whenever you get blogs out or stories, please send them to us so we can maybe bring them

01:00:28back on the show.

01:00:29So Bill, it's been great to have you on the show.

01:00:32Gary, thank you so much.

01:00:33I have greatly enjoyed it and enjoyed particularly participating in this with Florence.

01:00:38Yeah, and Florence, thank you very much for being on the show with us, Florence.

01:00:44Thank you, Gary.

01:00:45It was nice to be here.

01:00:47Thank you for having me.

01:00:48Okay.

01:00:49And I am Gary Wachter.

01:00:51I'm the host of Overcoming Overshoot here on EarthX TV.

Population Multiplies Everything | #OvercomingOvershoot S1E5 | EarthX

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