Martyn, James and Phil return after the first weekend of Six Nations matches.
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00:00 [Music]
00:06 Hello and welcome to National Worlds Kick and Chase Rugby Union podcast.
00:10 My name is Martin Simpson, joined once again by Phil Bramley and James Copley
00:15 and we're going to be looking back at the first weekend of the 2024 Guinness Six Nations Championship.
00:20 So guys, let's start off, I think, probably in France in Marseille.
00:27 Who saw that one coming then? Hands up.
00:31 Phil, I mean, I was shocked watching it. Not shocked, but somewhat shocked by Ireland just walking through
00:41 losing Sexton like the T1000, just completely unfazed.
00:48 But more shocked by France capitulating. Yeah, Johnny, ooh.
00:53 It was really interesting to see how those two teams diverged from the World Cup hangovers
00:59 and it looks like Les Bleus still have the blues from not winning that home World Cup and they haven't recovered.
01:05 They look like they've just basically crawled out of a bar after 15 pastices and pulled themselves onto the pitch.
01:10 They look all over the place. Ireland, or should it be Leinster and Green, I think they're just a machine.
01:18 Crowley just slotted in perfectly. I thought they just looked fantastic.
01:25 I'm really not sure whether it'd be interesting to see what happens to France now, whether that just was a bit of a blip
01:31 and they kind of recover from it. Obviously, the discipline didn't help and Valencia's almost a man who gets red carded twice in a game,
01:39 which is some going, but it kind of almost takes you back to that phrase when Mohamed Houassas was throwing punches left, right and centre
01:46 and France were crashing out of Six Nations because of the discipline.
01:49 This is obviously slightly different, but you can't really argue that he definitely needs to alter his tackle height
01:54 and you can't argue at all with those cards that he got.
01:57 Obviously, losing in Loch meant that France's line-out was all over the place,
02:01 but I just think the whole way the attack seemed really disjointed and in defence too.
02:08 In Sean Edwards, if he had any hair left, he'd be put tearing it out because they left holes all over the place for Ireland to run through.
02:14 Although I think to be fair, you have to give Ireland a huge amount of credit because they shut down that monstrous pack,
02:20 the huge bodies they've got, they really closed them down and that really seemed to be France's only option.
02:24 They kind of threw big men at the line and when they didn't kind of get through, it was like, what are we going to do now?
02:29 So, yeah, really disappointing for France, but Ireland look really slick. Look at everybody else for this Six Nations.
02:36 We don't want to make judgments after round one, James.
02:40 I think we can make a judgment that Ireland are once again favourites for the Grand Slam now.
02:45 That's a fair judgment to make. Probably less fair to write France off completely, but listen, in our lifetimes, we've seen it.
02:52 We've seen great France teams just, as Phil alluded to, just capitulate during the Six Nations.
02:59 Do you get that feeling that this could be a France side that's going to just go by the wayside
03:06 and God, could be fighting for the wooden spoon this year? Who thought we'd be seeing that?
03:12 Or do you think that Ireland result is going to give them a kick up the backside?
03:16 It's very interesting because obviously six months ago, you're saying that they are the best rugby side in the world alongside Ireland.
03:25 And we talk a lot about in sports, sort of a lack of personalities, a lack of character, sportsmen becoming robots and all of that sort of stuff.
03:35 But France have just proved that they're human and there is emotion left in sport because they're still smarting from that World Cup.
03:42 They've been hit with the blow that Dupont's not there. There's clearly something awry in their mentality.
03:48 Just when you thought the French had got over that sort of stereotype fully, it comes crashing back down in the biggest way.
03:55 You do have to credit Ireland, I think, for just being sublime.
03:59 Crowley coming in, kicking five conversions and a penalty. That narrative was ready to be written, wasn't it, really, by a lot of us all?
04:08 Can this replacement of Sexton come in and do the business? If he'd have missed one kick that was crucial, everybody would have been sort of not hammering him,
04:17 but they would have been asking the question. So I think he did extremely well. Ireland are just magnificent.
04:22 The good thing for France is they've got Italy next. Obviously, Italy put up a good showing against England, but will they be fighting for the wooden sprint?
04:31 I don't think so. I think they'll bounce back. But that is the interesting thing about this competition and the French.
04:36 We'll talk about characteristics of sides and nations when we get to Wales and Scotland, but in this tournament, they just all seem to come to the forefront, don't they?
04:46 You do get that sense that the rugby mirrors the nation at times. If the nation is smart, is the rugby going to mirror that the entire tournament?
04:58 They need to bounce back. They've got to bounce back. It's at home as well, this next game against Italy.
05:05 You'd think they'll be able to and they'll want to come back from that.
05:09 It's probably hard to quantify, Phil, but losing DuPont and no DuPont and no Antomac as well.
05:17 And obviously, France have weapons all over the park. You've got in the front row, like you said, the devastating front five of France in the front row in the human chest freezer that is Wini Antonio.
05:29 Sensational loose forwards like Gregory Aldrete, centres like Donte and Ficu, and I've not even mentioned the wingers and the fullback.
05:43 If it was any other nation, you'd be saying it's just too good to be talking about anything other than a title challenge and putting that Ireland game behind them.
05:55 But it's France. It's the French men's national rugby union side, and I feel like we've been here before.
06:03 Yeah, it's interesting that certainly some of those big players, some of those names that you mentioned, I thought Jonathan Donte seemed a shadow of his former self compared to him.
06:12 Thomas Ramos had his worst game I think I've ever seen. I don't remember him ever playing as badly as that.
06:18 And you can sort of understand the idea that yes, you're missing Antomac and you're missing Dupont, but Luku and Jalibaev have been tearing it up in the top 14.
06:26 And you can sort of understand that putting those kind of club pairings together, that they should be purring, but it just didn't work.
06:33 And for whatever reason, whether there's a bit of dissent in the camp, whether it's a case of that they need a bit of a change up after that World Cup,
06:39 whether it is simply a case of it's just the first hit out and they will get better. And you're right.
06:44 Next week, they definitely will be much better because they're playing a different opposition that will let them impose themselves a little bit.
06:50 But yeah, it's really interesting to see how they kick on from now, what they do, because those great players, you look at the team sheet, that's a fantastic team.
06:59 You'd have all of those in your World Fantasy team because there's some great players there, but they just didn't stand up.
07:04 And the question is how they get themselves back up for that next week.
07:07 Just to correct myself, sorry, it's actually Scotland at Murrayfield next week, not the Italians, which presents a completely different...
07:14 Yes, you're right.
07:15 Completely different tense.
07:16 We'll get to that. We'll get to that. Yeah, of course, Italy, it's Ireland who are at home next week.
07:26 But yeah, like you said, those players just didn't show up.
07:30 I think I had to check at halftime to make sure Gregory Aldryd was actually on the field, which for a player of his caliber says everything about France.
07:42 But let's move on. Let's talk next about England, Phil, we'll come to you.
07:49 It's a strange one, isn't it? I mean, it's a win. It's a win in Rome, Italy.
07:57 Look, we all saw it. We all saw that Italy are good and that they've got something.
08:02 Do you think England, and it's a new Luke England side, is there still a belief amongst England's support that Italy shouldn't really be getting that close to you?
08:17 England-Italy is always a banana skin because everyone rolls out, you know, England have never lost to Italy.
08:21 They're never going to lose to Italy.
08:23 So it's one of these things if you lose, if you're damned if you do, damned if you don't, if they've lost to Italy, it'd be catastrophic.
08:29 You beat Italy, it's like, well, it's only Italy. What do you expect?
08:31 So it's one of those ones where you can't really win.
08:33 I think right at the very end, obviously, England were kind of pushing for that extra try and then they kind of lost it.
08:39 So you could argue there's a 14-point swing there in the last five minutes, which probably does make that scoreline look a little bit more respectable.
08:45 I think from an England point of view, it's very much as it has been for the last two or three years.
08:49 It's kind of signs of recovery, steps in the right direction, but not quite there yet.
08:55 I thought Mitchell really improved the ruck speed. I thought that stepped up massively.
09:00 And you could see what they were trying to do in the first half.
09:02 They were throwing it around a little bit more, certainly trying to play more.
09:05 All the debutants put their hands up and looked most of them to the man of Bourne.
09:10 There were a couple of bounces of the ball.
09:13 Freeman takes the ball down the sideline, that ball bounces back up and, you know, Damien Pannot style,
09:17 he goes over and says, "Oh, fantastic," and he just bounces out and we don't get it.
09:21 So, yeah, I think there are reasons to be optimistic.
09:25 The defence, obviously, they've brought in Felix Jones from South Africa.
09:29 He's implemented a slightly more aggressive, you know, blitz and high wide outside shape.
09:34 And that does take a little bit of time to get used to.
09:36 And you can see there were some defensive laps.
09:39 I don't think you can expect England to ship three tries quite as easily as they did, maybe.
09:44 But, yeah, I think overall, a positive step forward.
09:47 It's the first time back. There's lots of new players, new combinations.
09:51 I think England's problem, again, is that centre combination because I actually thought it worked quite well.
09:56 But, again, it's the first time that you've had that kind of Slade-Dingwall combination.
10:01 The question now is, assuming that, I haven't heard, but if Lawrence does make fitness the next one,
10:07 you would bring him back in and you can argue that's perhaps where England were lacking a little bit of front football
10:12 in that centre. They ran hard but didn't really dent the game line massively.
10:17 So, then, again, that kind of brings in that recurring theme of England about trying to get consistency
10:22 and trying to build partnerships, which is difficult when you've got new players come in.
10:26 Let me just give you my sort of take on it before I bring James in.
10:30 I kind of felt like there was no sort of, I don't want to say dirty tricks,
10:36 because that's not what the Italians did in the past, but none of this sort of, you know,
10:41 trying to avoid going into rucks and stuff and just trying to effectively trick the game,
10:48 find loopholes, there was none of that. Italy just played well, for the most part.
10:55 England played well as well. And I feel like rather than Italy raising themselves up to England's best level,
11:03 Italy certainly raised their level, but England's kind of, it's sort of like, just on this game alone,
11:10 it feels like Italy have gone up to England's level and England have come down a bit to Italy's level.
11:16 And look, it's sport. You're not always going to have the best team.
11:23 Look at where Wales have gone from the 2010s to now. Look at where Scotland went from the 1990s to the 2000s.
11:30 England, you know, they haven't nearly folded in on themselves nearly as bad as that,
11:35 but it does feel like their level from previous years has dropped a bit.
11:41 But like you said, it's a young team. It's a new coach. You can only assume they're going to get better.
11:45 And I do think they're going to get better. But we need to kind of think about what this Six Nations is going to look like.
11:51 And that will be one that we'll come to just after this short break.
11:54 Welcome back. So, James, just as we were mentioning before, what does this Six Nations look like?
12:10 What does a successful Six Nations look like for England, in your opinion, this year?
12:15 It's really interesting with England. The Six Nations is about momentum.
12:20 We know that, yes, it's Italy in the first round. It wasn't massively convincing, but they still got the job done.
12:26 As Phil mentioned, a little bit of sort of scoreline pattern towards the end as England sort of chased.
12:31 And even when Italy were in front, I never really felt like England were in danger too much.
12:36 But in terms of that first game being crucial, which it always seems to be in the Six Nations,
12:41 I believe that's the first time England have won on the opening day in the Six Nations for about four or five tournaments.
12:47 It's been a long time. So getting England off to a good start is paramount.
12:52 I really like what Steve Borthwick's doing. There's obviously been a lot of change after the World Cup, as you'd expect.
12:57 Noel and Farrell, there's a lot of sort of moving parts. There's a lot of stuff still to be worked out.
13:03 I think the interesting thing is with England and the likes of France and Ireland have almost set the bar on this recently as well,
13:09 is that England supporters want to win, first and foremost.
13:13 But I think after the Eddie Jones era as well, latterly, they want to be entertained.
13:18 And that's absolutely fair enough. And that's the balance Steve Borthwick's got a strike.
13:21 Because with the World Cup, there was an acknowledgement that he's done extremely well to get this team to the semifinals.
13:27 But it wasn't massively entertaining. Really, it wasn't.
13:31 But then again, you look at the likes of France and Ireland who entertained but didn't get as far as England.
13:36 We can go down a World Cup rabbit hole there.
13:39 It's interesting. I think that question about England, what will be judged as successful,
13:45 I don't think that's going away anytime soon.
13:47 I think we'll still be asking that question a couple of games in, unless they start winning everything and bulldozing everybody.
13:55 But yeah, definitely a taming transition. But then again, most of the Six Nations are.
14:00 Let me ask you this, Phil. I almost get an impression from England that they are where Scotland were not so long ago.
14:08 You're two weekends in, you've won both your games, the Grand Slam is on.
14:13 Are you actually feeling like we can do this?
14:18 Or do you feel like you need to go one game at a time almost, to use the old cliche?
14:22 Yeah, I suppose you have to. But you're right.
14:25 I mean, as we've said, England have so often started the Six Nations behind that eight ball because they're losing the opening game.
14:32 And then you really are fighting for survival.
14:36 I think having seen the way Ireland play, you'd be a betting man to say anybody can beat them if they perform like that.
14:44 And they do look really strong. And all it takes is for them to get in there, to rattle, to score a try, put some scoreboard pressure on them.
14:51 Who knows? I'm not going to sit here and say for a second that I am confident England are going to win the Grand Slam, because I'm not.
14:57 But are they capable of doing it? Yeah, why not?
15:01 And it's a great time. It's the perfect time to sort of be in that transition and bringing the young players through because it's the start of a new World Cup cycle.
15:09 You've got young guys that can only grow in confidence by performing well,
15:13 performing well enough to potentially get a Lions call up again for some of these younger England players.
15:18 That would be fabulous for them. And then going beyond that to four years time, a long way away at the moment.
15:24 But this is where you want to be hitting the reset button almost.
15:28 So let's go on to the final game. Phil, you can go now.
15:34 Have your nerves recovered? That's the question. Have you got any fingernails left?
15:40 As a neutral with no skin in the game, it was brilliant. It was absolutely fantastic.
15:47 It was one of the great games.
15:50 To be honest, the second half for me was absolutely brilliant.
15:54 I can't imagine being Martin in that situation because I was just sort of the opinion in the second half.
15:59 You know, if we do this, brilliant. But my God, what a game.
16:02 I wasn't even that disappointed to lose to be honest. It was just so good.
16:07 Yeah, I mean, first half, that is, I was at halftime, I was gobsmacked.
16:15 I'm thinking never in my lifetime did I think I would see us, due to Wales away from home, what other teams used to do to us.
16:27 Just a complete one-sided game. Wales had nothing, nothing in that half.
16:34 Barely more than one in a touch of the ball. Do you know what I mean?
16:38 It was like Finn Russell could have just skewed a kick and went, "There you go, lads, have a bit of fun."
16:43 And being a Scotland fan, I've been there. I've been in games where it's like halftime and you're like,
16:50 "Why did we show up? Yeah, exactly. What is this about?"
16:55 And you're thinking, I never thought, and as bad as Wales were, Scotland were terrific.
17:01 They managed the game brilliantly. I could go on and on.
17:07 Wales couldn't even get over the game line without kicking it.
17:14 They didn't have a single dominant tackle in the entire first half to Scotland's six or seven, I believe it was.
17:20 I mean, just every statistic in that first half and you're sitting there thinking,
17:26 "Wrap the bonus point up. Jobs a good 'un, wow."
17:31 And then, oh, I don't...
17:37 Because on the face of it, you look at that result and you would say,
17:40 "Scotland winning Wales for the first time since 1854, fantastic momentum."
17:45 But actually, I think Wales come out of that almost the happier team despite having lost it.
17:48 Because A, they showed a fantastic fight back.
17:52 B, it looks like they kind of realised at halftime, "This kicking game isn't working. Let's try something else.
17:57 "Guess what? This is working." They've also now found, blooded some young players and look,
18:01 seem like they've got a bit of a template. And Scotland, we'll have to look at their discipline issues and say,
18:05 "How on earth did we let that lead almost evaporate in front of our eyes?"
18:10 Yeah, Wales' streak, I tweeted, "Wales' streak over Scotland isn't just going to end.
18:17 "It's going to be blown to smithereens." And that's how it felt.
18:20 I mean, to be 27-0 down in a test match at halftime at home with such a young squad,
18:28 you really, really did fear the worst. I also heard a statistic that had Wales completed that comeback,
18:33 it would have been the biggest test match comeback in tier one rugby history,
18:38 not just Six Nations, of any tournament ever.
18:41 So that just goes to show how much of a strong position Scotland are in.
18:46 And I mentioned at the top of the podcast as well, that was possibly the most Welsh performance I've ever witnessed.
18:52 And it was possibly the most Scottish performance I've ever witnessed as well,
18:55 in terms of the characteristics of those two nations, Wales being the plucky underdogs.
19:00 Well, they had to make themselves the biggest underdogs in tier one rugby history to get going,
19:06 which is massively frustrating. And then Scotland had it there and nearly threw it away.
19:10 And how many times have we seen that over the years from Scottish teams?
19:16 It's such a weird one, that first half for me to analyze from a Wales perspective,
19:20 because obviously the two halfbacks were changed.
19:24 And Davies and Costello went off, on came Lloyd and Thomas Williams.
19:29 That really, really changed the game for me. Thomas Williams getting quick ball.
19:32 But then to caveat that, Wales' pack in the first half was absolutely blown to smithereens.
19:36 So it was really difficult for those halfbacks. The pack was shewed up in the second.
19:40 So it's really hard to make judgments on those two players.
19:43 Warren Gatton came out and sort of apologized for the first half.
19:46 It is something for Wales to build on. I think that team could have gone down badly in that game.
19:54 And it could have been one of the lowest points in Welsh rugby history. They managed to salvage it.
19:58 And coming out of that game, as Phil mentioned, it is bizarre because,
20:03 where does Scotland go from here, given that collapse?
20:07 Will it galvanize them or does it show that sort of mentality?
20:11 I honestly don't have a clue. And it's sort of the same with Wales, really.
20:15 You've hit rock bottom, you've shown a bit of potential,
20:18 but what are you going to be for the rest of this tournament?
20:21 And there's just huge questions around both teams now.
20:24 It is a bit bizarre that we have those questions about Scotland for me,
20:29 given how consistent they've been. But you never know, a slim win like that could galvanize.
20:35 I thought Finn Russell's interview after the game where he didn't call his teammates out,
20:39 but he was very honest and said, "The coaching staff are staying one thing,
20:43 and we're still making the same mistakes." I think that's good.
20:45 I think you need to have those honest conversations.
20:48 But yeah, all eyes on the next round of fixtures, because you just don't know what's going to happen
20:51 with either teams. And that's hugely exciting.
20:54 All credit to Wales, first of all. An immense performance in that second half.
20:59 And I'll just say it now, obviously, I talked about the cycle earlier.
21:04 If any player this weekend has been the first man to put his hand up and say,
21:09 "I'm going on that Lions tour next year," it's Aaron Wainwright,
21:12 because what a monstrous second half performance.
21:15 You're sitting there thinking, "God, he could properly replace Tolupe Faletau on this side."
21:20 Tolupe Faletau, who is Tolupe Faletau. He's one of the best back row players
21:25 in Northern Hemisphere history, probably. And here we go. Wales have found his successor,
21:30 who, based on that limited performance, has all the potential to surpass him.
21:36 He was unreal. But anyway, on Scotland, if any game showed me that Scotland
21:43 are not at Ireland's level, it was that game.
21:46 Because if that had happened, if Ireland had been 27-0 up,
21:51 and then the team they were playing had scored a try and they'd got a man sent off,
21:57 I can tell you what would have happened. Ireland would have gone,
22:00 "Here's the ball for 10 minutes. We are going to fan out across the pitch
22:04 and we're just going to kill the game." And I'm sitting there, and I'm going,
22:07 "When that try's scored and the yellow card goes, that's what I'm saying."
22:11 I'm not an elite level rugby coach or a player. And yeah, it's easier said than done
22:18 to just wave after wave of momentum to crash into your defensive line.
22:24 I'm not saying I could do it, but if Scotland want to be serious title contenders,
22:30 a situation like that, where you've got a huge lead, and then the opposition team
22:35 just get this little opportunity, it's not difficult.
22:39 I know Scotland were maybe potentially thinking about the bonus point,
22:43 because wrap that up. Not that it really mattered too much, but it's like,
22:48 "Just kill it. Just kill the game. Kill their momentum. Shut them down.
22:52 We don't need the ball. Let them have the ball. Defend. Just don't give them anything."
22:59 I mean, look, for the first time, not in my lifetime, but that I can remember
23:05 in my lifetime, because I wasn't really into rugby when I was 8, 9,
23:10 but for the first time I can remember us winning in Cardiff,
23:13 and I'm coming out of it deflated.
23:17 - A 22-year hoodoo is gone in Scotland. It's so Scotland.
23:23 - It really is. Well, that's all we've got time for. Thanks as ever, guys,
23:29 for joining me. We'll be back next week after another round of fixtures,
23:33 including...well, what have we got? Well, we've got England against Wales,
23:37 I think is probably the one that stands out. That's going to be really good.
23:40 Scotland-France is going to be really interesting,
23:43 and let's see what Italy can do against Ireland.
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