The panel review week two of the Six Nations 2024.
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00:00 (upbeat music)
00:02 - Hello and welcome to National World's
00:07 Kick and Chase Rugby Union podcast.
00:10 My name's Martin Simpson,
00:11 joined once again by Phil Bramley and James Copley.
00:14 And we're gonna be discussing the latest round
00:16 from the 2024 Guinness Six Nations.
00:19 So guys, let's work backwards this week
00:24 from the Sunday match.
00:25 It was Ireland against Italy.
00:27 Don't need to spend a whole lot of time
00:29 discussing this one, do we?
00:30 I mean, a fairly routine win for Ireland, Italy.
00:34 Unfair to say they didn't put up much of a fight.
00:37 You know, there was signs of life during the match,
00:40 but overall, it was a final result
00:43 that will surprise absolutely no one.
00:46 How do you see it, James?
00:47 - I just think it shows that Ireland
00:51 are just a complete class above,
00:52 'cause I don't believe this Italy team
00:54 are as bad as previous iterations.
00:57 I think they're slowly growing, slowly developing.
01:00 I think the big question is,
01:02 can they put that development into wins eventually?
01:05 'Cause we've sort of seen Italy progress from,
01:08 you know, this rugby nation that gets sort of run over
01:11 during the Six Nations,
01:12 and now they've tied things up.
01:13 They obviously had a win against Wales
01:15 a couple of years ago.
01:16 And they've developed competitors
01:19 without winning games yet in some games,
01:21 which is good, but obviously you would like to see them
01:26 progress a little bit more
01:27 and start to be sort of a threat or a force.
01:30 'Cause you know, the Six Nations is great
01:32 with five of the nations in with a shout by and large
01:35 most years, so to have Italy compete as well
01:37 would be fantastic.
01:38 Ireland are just so well-oiled, so brilliant.
01:40 I think the way that the Sexton departure
01:45 has been managed with Crowley coming into it,
01:47 I think it has been absolutely superb.
01:50 I'm a massive fan of Crowley
01:52 from what I've seen of him so far.
01:54 I think the way he's come in with his enthusiasm,
01:58 maturity, and how happy he seems
02:01 when things are going well to get the assist
02:03 for a couple of tries during the Six Nations already,
02:06 the score during the Six Nations,
02:08 his kickings being good.
02:10 It's great to see, 'cause the massive pressure,
02:13 big shoes to step into.
02:15 I mean, Johnny Sexton's a legend.
02:16 You could argue the best player Ireland's ever had.
02:19 And there's some contenders in there,
02:21 you know, British and Irish Lions legend,
02:24 all of that sort of stuff.
02:27 So to see him come in and do well
02:28 has been one of the stories of the tournament for me,
02:30 especially for a relatively young lad as well.
02:33 But the thing is with the Irish
02:34 is that it's very easy to be a 10
02:36 when you're in front of such a dominant pack.
02:38 And if he wasn't in front of such a dominant pack,
02:41 I don't think it's an over-exaggeration to say
02:45 that your international career
02:46 could be completely different
02:47 if you come in to a team that's not functioning.
02:50 You can lose confidence, you can't grow.
02:53 You know, you get used to losing,
02:54 but we'll get on when we talk about Wales later on,
02:58 but the Irish set up the provinces,
03:00 they're used to winning.
03:02 That develops test match animals.
03:03 It's all interlocked and interwoven.
03:06 A player like Sexton can retire
03:08 and they can absorb that because there's a plan.
03:10 Long-term coach and Andy Farrell, it's just...
03:13 I don't know what more you can really say about Ireland now,
03:18 'cause they are just brilliant.
03:19 And if they do manage to slam back to back,
03:22 that's amazing 'cause it's never been done
03:24 in the Six Nations era.
03:25 I think England will be the biggest hurdle at Twickenham,
03:28 which is a huge game.
03:30 But you're back Ireland at the moment,
03:34 wouldn't you, I think?
03:36 - Yeah, kind of frustrating time
03:38 to be an Italy supporter, isn't it, Phil?
03:39 I mean, not as frustrating as getting hammered every week.
03:43 You know, there's enough positive signs there
03:45 to say that they can compete
03:47 to not take home the wooden spoon.
03:49 But is it maybe just more Ireland?
03:51 Are Ireland just a level above everyone else?
03:54 'Cause we have tier one and tier two nations, don't we?
03:58 But it's almost like Ireland are tier one
04:01 and everyone else is like tier one and a half.
04:04 - Absolutely, I mean, certainly in Europe.
04:05 I mean, this is the sort of unfortunate thing
04:08 because we're only into round two
04:10 and we've already more or less said,
04:11 let's just give the Grand Slam to Ireland
04:12 and everyone else go home.
04:13 'Cause it kind of feels like we're all a bit superfluous.
04:15 Basically, we just kind of cannon fodder
04:17 for them to practice running through.
04:19 - Italy, yeah, I mean, they have taken steps forward
04:22 and you can see that the way that they, you know,
04:24 have had a play against England and how close that game was.
04:27 But then again, the differences between those two scores
04:29 just shows the golfing class, I think,
04:31 between where Ireland are.
04:33 And the frightening thing is
04:34 they've still got players to come back.
04:35 They've still got Omani to come back,
04:36 and they have the captain.
04:37 It's like, it's terrifying what they could do
04:39 when they're gonna add stuff to it.
04:40 I mean, I completely agree with James
04:42 that, you know, Crowley's got a complete armchair,
04:44 but he just looked phenomenal.
04:45 That lovely kind of no-look pass
04:47 and some of those kind of round the back finishing
04:48 that they were doing, they looked like they were,
04:50 they looked like they were having fun.
04:51 They looked like they were kind of playing touch
04:52 on a Friday night after work before going down the pub.
04:55 And they just basically cut Italy to pieces.
04:59 I think it will be interesting to see, as I say,
05:01 what happens in that England game.
05:03 It does look like it could be the crunch match,
05:05 but from what England have put up
05:07 and what Ireland have shown,
05:08 they didn't even look like they were
05:11 kind of coming out of first or second gear,
05:12 but they've just kind of countered,
05:13 and they just look so slick and frightening
05:16 for everybody else.
05:17 And there definitely is clear blue water now
05:18 between that green army at the top
05:20 and pretty much everybody else below them.
05:22 - I think to keep an international team
05:24 in a test match to nil is always really impressive,
05:26 no matter who they are.
05:27 - Yeah, there's just, there just doesn't feel like,
05:29 with France having, you know,
05:31 gone so far off the boil as they did,
05:33 it just doesn't feel like there's any team
05:35 in the Northern Hemisphere
05:36 that's even close to Ireland at the moment.
05:39 Obviously, just a sort of,
05:41 just in the background of this Six Nations
05:43 is talk of the Lions Tour in Australia next year.
05:46 We'll have another Six Nations before then.
05:48 It'll be more prominent then,
05:49 but with Solwa Warren Gatland,
05:51 he favored a lot of his Welsh players,
05:53 and rightly so, because his Welsh team over,
05:56 especially around the time of the New Zealand tour,
05:58 was an incredible team of star players.
06:01 Andy Farrell's obviously going to take the next one.
06:03 And to be honest with you,
06:04 I would imagine at this rate,
06:06 the squad's going to be two thirds Irish players,
06:08 just supplemented by, you know,
06:11 some of the stars from the other nations.
06:13 But it remains to be seen.
06:14 But as we've said,
06:15 we're kind of handing the crown to Ireland already.
06:18 And who could blame us?
06:20 'Cause I don't think anyone else
06:21 can see any other outcome at this stage.
06:23 Just not just on how Ireland have performed,
06:26 but on how every other nation has sort of started.
06:30 But moving on to the match at Twickenham,
06:34 and I'll let you guys take charge of this one.
06:37 Quite a lot to dissect, to be honest.
06:41 Where to start?
06:43 James, round one, Wales have a abysmal first half
06:47 and have an outstanding second half.
06:50 Round two, not quite so, you know,
06:53 far extreme on opposite ends of the scale,
06:55 but a kind of reverse of that.
06:58 - Yeah, I'm fairly relaxed about it, to be honest.
07:00 I think this Six Nations was always going to be,
07:04 you know, sort of a free pass.
07:07 Obviously, there was a lot of churn
07:08 before the previous World Cup as well.
07:10 And that Six Nations where Gatland came in,
07:11 there's been a lot of blood and of young players.
07:14 I heard it suggested that, well,
07:16 was last season's Six Nations not meant to be what this is?
07:19 And I'm sort of like, yes and no,
07:21 because there was a lot of players still around.
07:22 Hanscom, bigger, Liam Williams, you know.
07:24 If you list the players that aren't available for Wales
07:27 for whatever reason at the moment, it's absolutely nuts.
07:30 So I'm really wary of contradicting myself
07:33 because we've all come on this podcast
07:35 and hammered Eddie Jones for the, you know,
07:37 jam tomorrow situation over the years
07:39 where it was, we're building for a World Cup,
07:41 we're building for a World Cup.
07:43 I think that era of England players,
07:45 you shouldn't have been building for a World Cup,
07:46 you should have been aiming to win the Six Nations then
07:48 because they had a really, really good team on paper.
07:51 With Wales, I think it's slightly different.
07:52 It's so inexperienced, the knee test match experience.
07:56 And I think they're showing something,
07:58 that the green shoots of recovery are there,
08:00 they get an experience.
08:01 England are a good side of the ball,
08:03 they're very tactically astute.
08:05 I thought they got the game plan wrong in the first half,
08:08 but then they adjusted in the second half
08:09 and that's what they needed to do
08:10 because if they were going...
08:11 This Wales side seem very fearless in possession
08:13 and when you play them,
08:15 that sort of run and pass and tap off rugby,
08:17 I think they are dangerous,
08:18 but if you can play a more tactical kicking game,
08:20 which England can because they've got brilliant,
08:22 you know, fullbacks, halfbacks,
08:24 I think that they're always going to sort of win that battle.
08:28 But again, there's something we've spoke about
08:31 in this podcast a lot,
08:32 but it's sort of a reverse of what Ireland have,
08:36 the system in Wales at the moment
08:37 where you have players coming into that Irish team
08:41 and they're used to winning, they're used to success,
08:44 they're used to sort of big occasions,
08:46 they're used to stability,
08:47 where in Wales they're coming in
08:49 and they're learning that on the job,
08:51 they're not coming into a...
08:52 They're not used to winning test matches essentially
08:54 and it's a whole different ball game
08:55 when in test matches,
08:56 we've seen that in the last two.
08:58 You do need like an extra 10%,
09:00 thinking of Dan Bigger in the group stages
09:02 during the World Cup,
09:03 you need that like little mentality,
09:05 you need players to sort of get hold
09:07 of other players and sort of drag them along.
09:09 Wales don't have that yet
09:10 and I'm completely fine with it
09:11 just because it is such a young and inexperienced team.
09:14 I think it will come the longer the work with Gatland,
09:16 hopefully the regions can pick up form as well.
09:19 But it's the different characteristics
09:21 between Wales and the other sort of home nations
09:25 and Ireland if you like,
09:26 I think are really interesting.
09:28 - Is there anything to be said, James,
09:29 for the two losing bonus points
09:31 and avoiding the wooden spoon to be honest?
09:35 Obviously Wales are so used to competing
09:38 at the opposite end of the table
09:40 and competing for grand slams
09:41 and championships and triple crowns,
09:43 but it could be really demotivating
09:47 and demoralizing for these young guys
09:49 to get to finish bottom.
09:51 So to avoid that wooden spoon,
09:54 can you call it an achievement?
09:57 If you're a Welsh fan,
09:58 given the success that you've been used to in the past?
10:00 - I don't think you would call it an achievement.
10:02 I think you want to avoid the wooden spoon
10:04 just because of the quality of Italy.
10:07 That will be a really interesting fixture.
10:09 The first half of Scotland-France,
10:11 which we'll come on to,
10:12 I was very encouraged that Wales
10:13 might be able to sort of get something from that game.
10:16 I thought that the French is still sort of smarting
10:18 from recent disappointments,
10:20 but then Ramos sort of wins the game
10:22 with his boot in the second half.
10:24 And that concerns me actually,
10:25 because as I mentioned earlier,
10:26 Wales don't have that really strong kicking game just yet.
10:29 They haven't developed that.
10:31 So I think it's really interesting.
10:33 You never want to get the wooden spoon,
10:35 especially with how weak Italy have been previously.
10:39 I think that wouldn't do them any favours
10:41 in terms of confidence.
10:42 They'll have to target that Italy game as a must win,
10:44 I think.
10:45 But they have shown against Scotland
10:50 and against England that they could pull out a result,
10:54 I think.
10:55 And when it clicks and they get a bit of luck,
10:57 'cause so much of top level sport
10:58 is about a bit of luck here and there,
11:00 as we'll get on to.
11:02 - Yeah, it is interesting.
11:06 It's hard because I'm sort of detached.
11:08 I live in the North East of England, obviously.
11:09 So I'm sort of detached from the mood in Wales.
11:11 I try to keep up with various different podcasts,
11:14 but the impression I get is that everybody's
11:16 sort of quite relaxed about this.
11:18 But I don't think anybody in Wales wants a wooden spoon.
11:21 So avoid that at all costs, I think.
11:23 - Yeah, the run out of the fixtures is something
11:25 that seems to not have fallen too kindly
11:27 because after back-to-back defeats,
11:30 albeit with losing bonus points,
11:32 then you now have to go to Dublin,
11:33 which is, you would much rather have the France game next
11:38 or the Italy game rather than going to Dublin
11:40 because you don't want these young players to get hammered
11:43 and then to be demotivated.
11:45 But anyway, we need to take a short break,
11:48 I'm afraid, James,
11:49 but I will come back to you on this after the break.
11:51 And we'll be speaking about England.
11:52 We'll also be speaking about France and Scotland.
11:55 (dramatic music)
11:57 (upbeat music)
12:00 Welcome back.
12:06 So we were just saying there, James,
12:08 before we move on to England,
12:09 the players in Wales, the need to,
12:12 the getting thrashed in Dublin,
12:14 it could prove to be quite demotivating.
12:16 So it's something they're gonna want to avoid at all costs.
12:19 - No, absolutely.
12:20 I think the message has to be that you are massive underdogs,
12:23 which Wales as a nation,
12:25 that seems to be something that motivates us all along,
12:27 which is all very well and good.
12:29 But it does need to convert into results at some point.
12:32 You're right.
12:33 But I think the message has to be from Warren Gatland to them
12:34 is like, look, you've got a massive opportunity here
12:36 to really lay down a marker.
12:38 And hopefully, although I can't really see it,
12:41 it would be nice if Wales weren't glorious in defeat
12:43 and they actually sort of got one over the line
12:45 'cause I've heard Sam Warburton talk about this quite often
12:48 and I agree.
12:49 And it doesn't necessarily fit to this Wales team yet,
12:52 but even when Wales have been at their best,
12:53 it's sort of, oh, you know,
12:56 glorious losers don't quite get it over the line,
12:58 but a team to be proud of.
12:59 And Sam Warburton's of the opinions that,
13:00 well, no, actually we have the players
13:02 and we need to change this mentality in Wales.
13:04 At the moment, I think that's fine
13:05 because that's the stage that we're at,
13:07 but going forward, we will need to win some test matches.
13:09 And it is a results business at the end of the day.
13:12 - Well, mentality is something I want to speak about
13:14 with England, Phil, but before we get onto that,
13:17 because I don't want to be accused
13:19 of just going in on them from the off.
13:21 So let's actually talk about the positives from that match
13:24 'cause it does show good character
13:26 to fight back in the way that it did.
13:28 - Yeah, 100%.
13:30 I think in years gone by,
13:32 they would have easily lost that match.
13:33 And the fact they came down from nine points at halftime,
13:36 which I think I'm right in saying
13:37 is their record kind of recovery
13:39 in the Six Nations and at Twickenham,
13:42 that they have shown that.
13:43 And the defence is definitely starting to come together.
13:46 You can see what Felix Jones is trying to implement.
13:49 They went through, in that second half,
13:50 they went through, Wales went through 20 odd phases
13:53 and didn't get anywhere.
13:54 And England stayed really disciplined.
13:56 Yes, the discipline wasn't so great in the first half.
13:58 Obviously, they had those two cards
13:59 and I think six penalties,
14:00 but in the second half, they only coughed up one penalty
14:02 whilst kind of repelling wave after wave
14:04 after wave of Wales' attack.
14:06 Now, you could argue maybe Wales fell into a little bit
14:08 of a trap about not playing quite so cute.
14:10 In the end, England managed to keep Wales out of the 22
14:14 throughout the entire of the fourth quarter of the game,
14:16 which is pretty impressive.
14:18 That's really showing up.
14:19 I do worry at what the likes of a Finn Russell
14:22 or a Jack Crowley will do against that kind of blitz defence
14:25 because there's a couple of times Wales did cut them open.
14:28 Tommy Raphael played some nice kind of balls
14:29 back on the inside and they're going to have to watch that.
14:32 But you have to say that they're taking steps.
14:34 The psychology has changed.
14:36 I think there is a resilience in there
14:37 that there perhaps wasn't.
14:39 The attack for me still feels a bit clunky.
14:41 So even for that second try, when Freeman scored,
14:44 they almost messed it up
14:46 with a bit of a kind of a fumbled pass out.
14:48 I think it was Daley that kind of took it a full stretch
14:49 and then almost a forward pass.
14:51 But let's be generous and say it was flat into the corner.
14:54 They still, for me, lack game line.
14:56 I thought Chandler coming in south when he came in
14:58 looked like he gave them a bit of that.
15:01 And whilst I was really impressed
15:02 that Bournemouth stuck with the same team
15:04 to give them continuity,
15:05 which is something that this team
15:06 have been lacking for years,
15:07 it's always been chop and change.
15:09 I do wonder whether if we introduce a Manu
15:12 or an Ollie Lawrence into that kind of centre,
15:15 that would just give them that little bit of go forward
15:18 that then they can go for.
15:20 But it is still a work in progress.
15:22 Yeah, I would say, you know, six and a half out of 10,
15:25 they got the job done.
15:26 They came from behind.
15:28 So there is, you know, things to work on definitely,
15:31 but it's not the finished article yet by any means.
15:34 - It's interesting to me, I think,
15:37 'cause I think the next game is where we learn
15:39 what we need to know about England.
15:42 'Cause with respect to your first two matches,
15:44 they are on paper the easiest two matches,
15:48 not that there are any easy matches in the Six Nations
15:50 and less your Ireland.
15:52 Those are your two easiest games.
15:55 And now you've got to go to Murrayfield
15:57 and then suddenly a win at Murrayfield
15:59 and this championship goes from,
16:02 let's see where England are to a triple crown
16:07 championship Grand Slam.
16:11 I think it changes on that because we've seen
16:13 what France have gotten,
16:16 going to Paris for the crunch in the last match
16:18 is always fantastic for the neutral.
16:22 And I think Ireland will be favorites at Twickenham,
16:25 but England, much like every nation,
16:27 back themselves at home.
16:30 So yeah, so if you can go up to Murrayfield
16:32 and win there, which from what we've seen from Scotland,
16:36 again, I think Scotland will start that match as favorites,
16:40 but it just changes the whole mentality.
16:43 This is what I want to talk about,
16:44 the mentality of England.
16:45 It would really change the whole mentality
16:47 of this championship, don't you think?
16:49 - 100%, I mean, let's face it,
16:51 Eddie Jones got the boot because England couldn't win
16:53 more than two matches in the Six Nations.
16:54 So to do it again,
16:55 you can't say that that's kind of progress.
16:57 At some point they're going to have to take the step up.
16:59 I think we all agree, Ireland are a level above
17:01 and can England beat the Ireland?
17:04 Yeah, yeah, they can on the day
17:06 if everything goes right for them.
17:07 I think it will be a tough ask.
17:09 What they have to do now is they have to perform
17:12 both against Scotland and against France
17:14 when they come to that game.
17:15 If they put in those performances,
17:17 even if they get close and don't quite win it,
17:18 I still think that's a step up, but you're right.
17:20 That next game, the game at Murrayfield
17:22 is going to tell us an awful lot about where England are
17:25 and after the France game, where Wales are as well,
17:28 sorry, where Scotland are as well
17:29 in terms of that kind of the psychological impact
17:31 of getting so close and not quite doing it.
17:34 - Yeah, we're all kind of just playing
17:36 for second place, aren't we?
17:37 So no one's celebrating it.
17:41 No one's popping the champagne for second place,
17:44 but it is a good barometer, if you like,
17:47 of where every nation is at.
17:50 But let's discuss Scotland then.
17:53 Not been looking forward to this, to be honest.
17:56 Is there much we can discuss from the match
18:01 before we just dedicate the rest of our time
18:03 to refereeing and how the TMO system works?
18:06 'Cause I don't think we learned anything
18:08 about either team from that match.
18:11 - We saw that.
18:12 France are still just a bit fractured
18:15 and something's not quite clicking there.
18:19 And Scotland just as always can't put games to bed
18:23 because they had chanted they should have been
18:24 further ahead than they were.
18:26 And they let, like I think Greg,
18:28 it was either Townsend or Russell said after the match,
18:30 they let the game be decided by a refereeing call.
18:35 - 100%.
18:36 It should have been done and adjusted well before all that.
18:38 And I kind of think my worry for Scotland
18:40 is it kind of felt like,
18:42 I know Townsend called out the kind of fact
18:44 that they kicked tennis in the middle of everyone
18:46 went to sleep and then went and made a cup of tea
18:47 and came back and saw what was happening.
18:49 But I felt Scotland were just as culpable
18:51 as France were in that.
18:52 And they seem to be happy just to say,
18:54 we're just gonna sit on what we've got,
18:55 which was always a danger I felt.
18:57 Even France that are underperforming
19:00 and didn't look anything like they were this time last year,
19:03 they still have threats across the pitch.
19:05 And you could argue that Biovary try
19:07 was just a moment of genius.
19:09 Catch it, dot it down, there it goes.
19:13 It's one of those things,
19:17 I think Scotland were naive just to try and hang on.
19:19 And in the end it came back and beat them.
19:22 - Yeah, I just, you know,
19:23 like the decision making drove me crazy in the first half.
19:26 It was early on Scotland get a kickable penalty
19:29 and they go for the corner and you're thinking, okay,
19:33 but I would have taken the three,
19:34 but we're going for the corner.
19:36 I like it.
19:37 Then you put in a good three minutes of hard graft,
19:42 10, 15 phases or whatever,
19:45 you win another penalty under the post
19:47 and then you kick that one.
19:49 It's not, that's a momentum killer for me.
19:51 Yeah, I know it's right there.
19:53 You know, it's the easiest three points you can get,
19:55 but it doesn't matter.
19:56 Finn Russell was capable of getting the original penalty in.
20:00 So why are we putting it?
20:02 Why are we going for that?
20:03 And then while we've got the momentum
20:04 and we've got another penalty
20:06 and then I'm sitting there and I'm watching the game
20:08 when they have the penalty under the posts
20:10 and they're calling for the scrum
20:11 and I'm shouting and applauding
20:12 'cause that's brilliant.
20:13 I love it.
20:14 That's exactly the right decision.
20:16 Get another man in the bin, get a penalty try.
20:19 And then France win the scrum penalty against the head.
20:22 And you're just thinking,
20:23 it's at that point in the match,
20:24 you're thinking if Scotland win this,
20:26 they're going to win this by one or two points
20:27 if they win it.
20:28 But just by a show of nods,
20:32 was the ball grounded for the last, yep, Phil.
20:37 - The ball was grounded,
20:38 but unfortunately it wasn't a try.
20:41 - Yep.
20:41 So where do we all stand on this?
20:45 Is this the right way to referee these decisions?
20:48 The TMO, the referee makes an on-field call
20:51 similar to VAR in football
20:53 and the TMO needs to provide evidence that it was wrong.
20:56 Is this the right way to do it
20:58 rather than how we used to have it
21:00 where the referee could just ask the TMO,
21:02 I've not, I need to see a replay to make a decision.
21:06 - It's down to this thing.
21:07 It's all down to the question that's asked, isn't it?
21:09 And you can argue about whether or not
21:11 that's the right thing.
21:12 But if the referee,
21:13 I still think that we have to cede overall control
21:16 to the referee on the pitch.
21:17 I still think it has to be his decision or her decision
21:19 to say yes or no.
21:21 He obviously thought it was held up.
21:23 The question was,
21:25 is there compelling evidence that proves it was down?
21:28 And we all think that 99.9%, it was down,
21:31 but it's not 100%.
21:32 And therefore I think unfortunately
21:34 the right decision was arrived at.
21:36 The question is then, should we change that to say,
21:39 but even then, you know,
21:40 that the argument should be that it has to be proven
21:43 that the try scored,
21:44 not it's probable that it was scored.
21:45 And that's where you come down to that difference
21:47 of opinion, I suppose, and legalese.
21:49 - I do think we have to be careful chasing utopia
21:52 when it comes to refereeing decisions.
21:54 We have to accept that sometimes things will be wrong.
21:59 I think football has gone down the route
22:01 of chasing utopia with VAR.
22:03 I think it's spoiled a lot of the Premier League product
22:05 in my eyes, undermined the referee.
22:08 I think by and large,
22:09 refereeing decisions in rugby are a lot better,
22:13 I think, than football.
22:14 Yes, you will get some howlers,
22:16 and it's awful that it's happened to Scotland.
22:18 You know, there was a couple of things happened to Wales
22:21 in the quarterfinals and stuff like that
22:23 of the World Cup.
22:25 But I think one of the things you have to point at
22:29 with Scotland is why didn't they just get the ball out wide?
22:31 - I agree with you, James.
22:32 You feel like the risk reward factor there is less.
22:37 So if you go wide, maybe you'll knock it on.
22:40 But we saw the image.
22:45 There was, I just can't disagree with you more, Phil.
22:49 Like the picture was there, the grounding was clear.
22:53 - They watched it again, again, again, again, again.
22:56 And there's one clear image where you can see,
22:59 and it's obvious that the ball is touching,
23:02 you can see the line, you can see the grass,
23:04 you can see the ball.
23:06 It is down, it is on the ground.
23:07 It's a fair war.
23:09 That ball is clearly grounded.
23:11 There's no, it probably is, probably isn't.
23:14 That's as clear a picture as you're gonna see.
23:15 The ball is touching the grass, it is over the line,
23:19 and it's clearly a Scotland arm that has got the ball down.
23:21 - There's one exception, and that is the referee
23:23 is the sole arbiter of fact on the pitch,
23:25 and he says it isn't, so it isn't.
23:27 - Well, that's all we've got time for this week, guys.
23:31 Thanks very much for joining me.
23:33 No podcast next week, because no rugby next week,
23:36 but we will be back after round three,
23:39 which obviously includes the Calcutta Cup match
23:41 between Scotland and England, so it should be a good one.
23:44 Be sure to join us for that.
23:45 (upbeat music)
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23:57 you