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00:00 Welcome everybody into the Big Ten show. I'm your host Adam Karriker and I'm joined by a special
00:06 guest today. But before I bring Brandon on, make sure you go and see what our friends at the
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00:30 You're healthy hybrid advantage. All right. I am joined by Michigan insider, author of Wolverine
00:35 Digest on Fan Nation and Sports Illustrated contributor, Mr. Brandon Brown. How are you
00:41 doing my friend? I'm good. And I must admit I'm from farm country. The seed company, just to get
00:46 us started, man, I love it. I feel like I'm sitting right at home right now. It's awesome. And they're
00:53 awesome people. And I went and, you know, did an appearance for him, a speaking gig for him and
00:58 just get to get to meet him in person after chatting with them and getting to know them.
01:01 Great people behind a great company. So dude, Michigan football, there's like nothing that,
01:06 what in the world could we talk about? There's nothing going on in Ann Arbor, Michigan. All
01:11 right. Let's talk about it though. The loss of Jim Harbaugh. How big a deal is this? How much
01:16 is this going to matter? I've talked to some Michigan folks who didn't necessarily want him
01:21 to go, but it's kind of one of those things where there was a lot of things surrounding him and they
01:27 will no longer surround Michigan at least as much. So maybe it's not that bad. What are your thoughts
01:32 on all this? Yeah. I mean, you know, Jim Harbaugh has been a polarizing dude everywhere he's been,
01:37 you know, he kind of wears out his welcome at places, but he was at Michigan for nine years.
01:41 So, I mean, he's, he's a really good coach. There's no, he just went 15 and Oh, won the
01:46 national title. So obviously he's, he's an elite coach. He's getting elite money to go
01:51 back to the NFL. Like that's all fine and dandy. I think it's, I think things are going to be
01:56 difficult for it. You know, they ended up naming Sharon Moore, the head coach who was the OC
02:01 O-line coach for the last couple of years. It's going to be tricky for him. It's going to be
02:05 difficult for him, but I think it was going to be difficult for Jim Harbaugh if he came back just
02:10 because of all the other stuff. I mean, the expanded playoff makes things a little different
02:15 kind of changes the way regular season games feel a little bit.
02:18 NIL has been a struggle at Michigan and it seems to be kind of popping up now more than, than ever.
02:25 The transfer portal has been a little difficult for Michigan. Other teams are just killing it.
02:30 Whereas Michigan's always had a little bit of a pause with admissions or whatever the case may be
02:35 that schedule next year is brutal. Absolutely brutal. And Michigan literally might put like
02:41 20 dudes in the NFL this year. So it was going to be a big struggle in 2024, no matter who was
02:48 at the helm, but you know, Sherone Moore has never been a head coach before, other than his,
02:54 you know, four game interim stint during this past season. And he did win some really big games.
02:59 There's no question, but it's, it's a big deal. I mean, I'm not even like president of the Jim
03:04 Harbaugh fan club. I'm really not like I was ready to blast him to the moon in 2020. I lost a lot of
03:10 followers. I got a lot of heat. People thought I was some hater, but I just, you know, after six
03:15 years in 2020, I didn't think he was getting it done. But the last three years have been incredible.
03:21 He has, he has hit home run higher after home run higher. He has implemented the exact style that
03:27 Michigan needed to beat Ohio state and to win the big 10 and obviously when an Addy, but it was
03:33 going to be tricky for anybody, but yeah, it's, it's a huge deal. I mean, it's, it's, you know,
03:37 whether you love them or hate them, he wins everywhere he goes. And that's, he's proven
03:42 that at, at multiple stops, I think you make a phenomenal point, no matter who the head coach
03:47 was next year, let's say Harbaugh state. First of all, it's almost impossible not to take a step
03:51 back because you just went 15 and owned one national championship. So unless you do it again,
03:55 it's technically a step back. But beyond that, and we chatted about this previously, you lose
04:00 all your starting offensive lineman, you lose JJ McCarthy, your starting quarterback, the brew,
04:05 Oh, tall schedule. Holy crap. I wrote it down and I made some notes and we can go through that in a
04:10 minute if you like, like no matter who the head coach was, it was going to be challenging. Okay.
04:15 Then you talk about Harbaugh leaving right now, the strength coach who he called his X factor.
04:21 All right. Ben Herbert has gone to the chargers now. Have they officially named a new strength
04:25 coach yet? I know Justin Tress was going to be the guy or that was the thought he's officially
04:30 been named the guy yet. So, I mean, that was kind of the thing, the story that you bring up a good
04:35 point, actually, I don't, I don't know if we've gotten like an official release from the university
04:39 and they've been doing that along the way, you know, when, well, obviously when Sharon got,
04:43 got the job, it was a big deal and there was media and everything. They wouldn't do that for the
04:47 strength coach, but I don't think the university has put out like an official release yet. And
04:51 they typically do that when there's kind of a change at the top. And you mentioned Ben Herbert,
04:55 he was named associate head coach, like Jim Harbaugh raved about that guy. He, he, he nominated
05:03 him for the Broyles award, even though he wasn't even technically eligible, which that's just
05:08 another funny Jim Harbaugh thing. He's like, oh, strength coaches can't get it. Well, I'm going
05:12 to nominate him anyway, but then he made him associate head coach. And he was as big a part
05:17 of the culture change and why players developed as anybody on that staff. And it looked like he
05:22 was going to stay and then now he's leaving and that that's a, that's a major, major loss too.
05:28 So yeah, it's as far as I know, it is Justin Trest, but I, yeah, you're right. I don't think
05:32 there's been an official release on that. So Justin Trest, for those who may not know,
05:37 he's the Wolverines associate director of strength and conditioning. We assume he's the next,
05:42 next strength and conditioning coach as well. And it's interesting because I think strength coaches
05:46 get overlooked. Okay. Ben Herbert, I, I couldn't make a strong argument. The strength coaches
05:52 spend more time with players than the actual position coaches, position coaches really get you
05:56 sporadically during the winter kind of, but spring ball. And during the season,
06:00 the strength coaches get you during spring ball, the season, and almost the rest of the year,
06:05 there's some breaks in there after bowl games and right before you go into summer conditioning and
06:09 whatnot, but they spend as much or more time with players than anybody. And I've often wondered to
06:15 myself, how can you, it's a different culture, uh, just generally in the world today. And we don't
06:21 have to go off in the weeds to that, but how do you instill toughness and being a physical team
06:25 when it's just kind of a different culture in general, and kids might react differently than
06:28 they used to do that. You start with the strength coach. You start with being bigger, faster,
06:32 stronger, the mentality he instills in the weight room, and then it's easier for the football coaches
06:36 to do so. Now they got a new align coach as well. All right. Grant Newsome, who's been the tight
06:40 ends coach for the past couple of years. So essentially we assume Tress there is promotion
06:45 within more as a promotion within grant Newsome is a promotion within what are your thoughts on
06:50 Newsome as a new alliant coach and all this promoting from within that Michigan's doing.
06:54 Yeah, I think there's pros and cons. I mean, if you, if you're in Michigan, Michigan loves this,
07:00 they love the Michigan man thing. And I think it, you know, sometimes it's limiting. You've got this,
07:05 you can't quite call it an endless pool at this point because of the time of the year.
07:10 I mean, the carousel has been spinning for a while now and Michigan was still playing and
07:13 Jim Harbaugh was making his decision. So that, that doesn't help when you're trying to fill
07:18 vacancies at this point, but I like all those guys. I mean, grant Newsome, he's younger,
07:23 but he played the position at a high level at Michigan. He had to unfortunately medically
07:27 retire after a gruesome leg injury. Otherwise he'd probably be in, be in the NFL. I mean,
07:32 he was a starter as a true freshman at left tackle, which doesn't happen at Michigan. Hardly ever.
07:38 He's a super bright dude. The players love him. He handles himself really, really well. You'd never
07:43 guess he was in his mid twenties if you talk to him, but that's probably a more comfortable fit
07:48 for him. He was coaching tight ends. He never, he didn't play tight end, but he's a smart guy.
07:52 He learned from Sharon and now he's kind of, he's kind of up. He's kind of the next Sharon.
07:57 That's kind of what it feels like. Sharon Moore was the tight ends coach when grant Newsome was a
08:01 GA troll moved up to O-line grant slid into tight end. Now drones, the head coach, he slides up to
08:08 old. So it's kind of been like this natural progression. I don't know that much about
08:12 Justin Tress. I just, you know, we don't interact with the strength and conditioning coaches very
08:17 often as members of the media. So I don't know that much about them, but again, learning from
08:22 Herbert's not a bad way to go and you get some continuity there and the players are familiar,
08:26 but these guys were elite at what they did. I mean, shown more, you know, won the Joe Moore
08:31 award two years in a row. He's been the OC Ben Herbert was, I think the highest paid strength
08:36 coach in the country, or if not, he was right at the top and again, like a million or more a year.
08:40 Very respected by Harbaugh obviously took him with him to the pro. So you're losing elite guys
08:46 and hoping that these quote unquote fill-ins can do a good enough job to continue things because
08:51 Michigan's been so good the last three years, but I I've never loved, and it does feel like Michigan
08:57 only looks within sometimes. I don't know if that's how it went so far, but it, the way these
09:01 vacancies have been filled, it doesn't look like there was a national search or let's go find the
09:07 absolute best guy. Let's just stay, keep it in house. We've got some good people and hopefully
09:12 they'll be good, but yeah, I go back and forth on the in-house thing. I think there's, there's
09:17 certainly pros to it, but I think there are, there are some cons as well. The feeling I get when I
09:22 talk to Michigan folks right now, nobody's going to say, well, we expect to step back, but they
09:27 kind of expect it. Okay. But I don't get the feeling it's like an impatience, like, oh man,
09:32 if we aren't in that top four, if we don't win a big 10 title, Moore's job is in trouble. I don't
09:37 get that feeling at all. Kind of like maybe Ryan day, maybe had a little bit with Ohio state.
09:42 Cause a lot of people felt like he was born on third base, right? That, that program was really
09:46 built back by Meyer and handed to Ryan day. And all he had to do was just not screw it up. In some
09:50 people's minds, whether that's fair or not, we can debate. You could argue a similar case for
09:55 Sharon more. Now we just talked about everything that's, that's different and more challenging for
10:00 Michigan and how it'd be harder for Harbaugh. But my question is this, what would be a successful
10:05 season for Michigan next year? Do they have to beat Ohio state? Do they have to be in the top
10:10 four? Do they just have to make the college football playoff? What in your mind is a
10:14 successful season for Michigan fans in their minds next year? Man, after, after three years,
10:20 after three years in a row, the three year run that they've just had, it is a tough spot for,
10:27 it's like you said, if you don't, if you don't go 15 and O and win it all, technically you're
10:31 moving backwards. And that's pretty unfair for a first year head coach. Who's a young guy. And
10:35 he's dealing with all these things. We talked about new coordinators, multiple new position
10:39 coaches, tons of personnel change the schedule, which is nuts. It's, it's just, it's a very on
10:46 unlikely scenario that it happens. Like you could probably bet every penny you've ever made in your
10:52 entire life and be comfortable with it. They're not going to go 15 and O and win the whole thing
10:56 again. They're just not like it's only happened what four times in college football anyway.
11:01 So you have to imagine some sort of a step back. So man, if, you know, Sharon stepping into this
11:07 position in his first year, he's got to go on the road to play Ohio state this year. It's back in
11:12 Columbus. They have absolutely reloaded when it comes to the transfer portal. They've always
11:17 recruited. Well, that's not really anything new, but they've, they've hit the transfer portal even
11:21 harder this year. Got some of the best players at their respective positions across the board
11:25 and Michigan hasn't really done that again. They were in kind of a weirder spot because they were
11:30 still playing and Jim Harbaugh was in limbo. So you weren't able to go out there and chase these
11:34 portal guys. And now you've got all this turnover and personnel changes and the roster looks
11:39 completely different. I, man, I don't even, I hate the idea of putting a number on it, but I think
11:46 if you, if you fall short of like 10 games, people are going to be like, is this the guy is this,
11:51 you know, after 15 and O and now he can't even get to double digit wins. Like who is this guy?
11:56 And I, I love Sharon. I've known him since he was at CMU. So I just think he's in a really tough
12:02 spot. But I think if they don't win 10 games and you lose to Ohio state and you're not back in the
12:08 big 10 championship, people are going to already be thinking, Oh man, we miss Harbaugh. I just feel
12:13 like that's, that's how it's going to go. And I think that's pretty unfair because I think that's
12:17 probably the realistic outcome. So for me, I look at it similarly to you, but slightly different.
12:24 I look at it from a college football playoff perspective to me, if they're going to have to
12:28 be one of the top 10 teams, because there's 12 teams that get in there, there's six auto beds.
12:33 So there's going to be two G5 teams that get in until we fix, you know, how this thing is selected
12:38 within the 12 teams and seated and all that. So you got to be in the top 10. So to me, I kind of
12:42 think they got to get in the college football playoff, as long as they do that, whether they
12:46 win or lose, as long as they don't just get waxed in the first round, if they were to lose, then
12:50 I think in my mind, that would be a successful year knowing what's going on, at least for me
12:55 anyways. But we've referenced this schedule a couple of times. So I went ahead and wrote this
13:00 bad boy down. You start right off with Fresno state, who by the way, started eight and one
13:04 last year. And in their first three games had two power five wins over Purdue and Arizona state.
13:09 So they're not just a gimme win. Okay. Not a cupcake. No. Yeah. Then you got Texas. That might
13:14 be a little bit of a challenge. Arkansas state might be the easiest game that they have. If you
13:18 want to look at it that way, then you got USC and I never know what to make of the fricking trojans.
13:22 Yeah. Okay. I'll just say CFP potential without a doubt. Okay. And if they play any defense at all,
13:29 probably who knows if they will, then you got Minnesota. Okay. Now the nice thing about those
13:34 first five games, they're all in Ann Arbor. That is at least helpful. Then you go to Seattle.
13:39 Washington's not going to be the same team, probably not even close, but it's still on the
13:44 road. Seattle is a tough place to play. And they did just finish number two in the country at
13:48 Illinois. Then you got Michigan state and in-state rivalry game, which is always going to be tough.
13:53 Oregon who just finished number six in the country coming to Ann Arbor. Now, again,
13:58 these first nine games, there's only two road games. So there's a lot of games played in Ann
14:03 Arbor. Then you go to Bloomington to play Indiana. You got Northwestern and then at Ohio state.
14:09 All right. Who is, we know just finished 10th in the country. So that's eight home games,
14:13 four road games, but even beyond that, four teams have finished in the top 10 this past year.
14:18 And that doesn't include USC. That doesn't include rival Michigan state. The way I looked at it,
14:24 it's like six brutal games. Okay. And then you've got Fresno state, which isn't a gimme.
14:30 Then you've got big 10 opponents outside of Arkansas state. I don't see per se an easy game
14:36 on this entire schedule. What are your thoughts? Yeah, that's exactly it. The, I mean,
14:42 the only playoff team, not on the schedule is Alabama. That's that's crazy. Like, I mean,
14:47 yes, Michael panics is gone. You know, I understand there. He Washington with the
14:52 coaching change, jet fish though. He was at Michigan under Harbaugh. I thought if Harbaugh
14:56 left, give that dude a call. It was again, the timing wasn't there. He took the job at Washington
15:01 when all those pieces started to fall, Nick Saban's retirement, et cetera. But he's an
15:06 offensive guy. He's going to, you know, he's going to be bringing some, some athletes. They
15:10 lose a lot to like, you look at Washington's roster. That's not the team that Michigan just
15:14 played in the national title game. Texas is going to be damn good. I mean, they,
15:19 they returned their quarterback, which the other playoff teams do not.
15:22 It's so funny because this last year, everybody likes so many Michigan fans just, and everybody,
15:30 the national narrative for 10 weeks was Michigan. Hasn't played anybody that home schedule is a
15:35 joke. They, they could, they could have rolled out of bed without Jim Harbaugh up until November
15:40 and been undefeated. That's not the case next year. There are, there are challenges, you know,
15:45 laced throughout the whole schedule. Like you said, even Fresno state, which I don't know,
15:50 was probably scheduled six years ago or something that they were a quality football team last year.
15:54 It should be a win and Michigan will probably be favored by a decent amount, but got to show up
16:00 and play that one. But then you name those other ones, you've got all the new teams in the big 10
16:04 that Michigan will play three of them, USC, Oregon, Washington. And then, Oh, by the way,
16:09 Texas, which just throw that on there for a non-conference game that was scheduled again,
16:13 probably six or eight years ago. It's it's just brutal though. It wasn't scheduled with this
16:18 conference schedule in mind. I'll tell you that right now. No way. Right, exactly. So you've got
16:22 with Michigan, you've got three of the four playoff teams represented on that schedule.
16:28 Yeah. It's and you mentioned two Columbus it's a it's brutal. I mean, I, you know,
16:34 they're different. Yes, because quarterbacks are gone. Players are gone. Some of the best
16:38 players from those teams are moving on, but it's, those are still opponents that Michigan has just
16:44 never had to deal with before with the new big 10 and all that stuff. And again, the non-conference
16:48 game with Texas. So incredibly challenging again, even if Jim Harbaugh were back and you weren't
16:53 losing your entire offense and most of your most veteran players on defense, it would be a challenge.
16:58 So I actually went through and I did a way too early, but for fun record prediction.
17:04 And so after the first five games, I actually had them going four and one now that that USC game,
17:09 I have no idea what to make of the Trojans ever. They tend to be better early on than late in the
17:14 season, which may or may not, may not be good for Michigan fans, but I got them four and one.
17:18 I was like, Holy crap. That's a better start. And I thought then after nine games, I actually had
17:22 them seven and two. So the two losses that I have are Texas and Oregon up to this point. Okay. Then
17:27 in the final three games, I haven't beaten Indiana Northwestern. I had them losing on the road at
17:32 Ohio state. Okay. And I was like, man, that seems awfully generous. So I've got them either at nine
17:38 and three, or if they lose to USC eight and four. Now my question for you, what is your win loss
17:44 record prediction and will it get them into the CFP 12 team playoff next year?
17:50 So I think if you look at the schedule, so you've got, you've got Texas. I think there's,
17:55 it's a five game schedule. Every year you can kind of do this with Michigan. I mean,
17:59 you hope that they don't trip up and lose to a Minnesota or an Illinois on the road or whatever,
18:04 but you got to play them. And that happens. I mean, Ohio state got, you know, pants by Purdue.
18:09 It's like these things happen, like it's rare, but it does happen. But I think it's a five game
18:14 schedule and it's those teams we just talked about. It's Texas, it's Washington, Oregon,
18:18 USC, Ohio state. That's it. It's those five games, Michigan state's not ready to compete yet. I don't
18:23 think first year head coach, they're going to be breaking in a freshman quarterback. Like I just,
18:27 it's a rivalry game and it will be in, in East. Well, no, it's back in Ann Arbor. Sorry about that.
18:32 It's in Ann Arbor. Yeah. They beat them in East Lansing really bad this past season. So that's
18:36 a home game. They're not read, but those five games, you gotta win three of them. And so there's
18:42 your, you know, there's your, there's your record, probably nine and three, 10 and two, somewhere in
18:46 there. It does sound too generous. Maybe it is. Um, but if they, if they do go say eight and four
18:53 or even nine and three, if you look at where the team's finished this past season, that wouldn't
18:58 be good enough to make it to the playoff more than likely. So I'd say you got to get to 10 and two.
19:04 That's why that's that Mark in my head, just win 10 games. You'll probably get in the playoff.
19:09 That'd be another double digit season, double D double digit win season. I don't know how you
19:15 could, you know, be mad at your own more for that. Even if it is a loss in Columbus and you know,
19:19 one of these new big 10 teams. So if they lose three, I don't know. I don't know if that's good
19:27 enough to get you. I have, you'd have to think eight to 10 power five teams will have two losses
19:34 or less. And then you mentioned Southern group and five group of five guys. However, they figure
19:38 that out. I don't know if nine and three gets you in the playoff, even with 12 teams. I don't know
19:42 if it will. I'm curious about one thing because college football, and I'll never forget when I
19:48 first got to the Rams and my D coordinator, Jim has, it was like, Oh, you used to play in no name
19:53 you. And then followed by never heard of yet college. And he's like, no, we're playing the
19:58 Panthers and the Niners. And every week is a battle in the NFL. There's no weeks off.
20:02 Cause anybody can literally be anybody on any given Sunday. I look at this schedule and there
20:09 are five teams that stand out, but I'm curious because college football players have never had
20:14 to week in and week out show up every single week without, I don't want to say let down games before,
20:21 but I mentioned a lot of those games because there's a huge difference between playing three
20:26 Arkansas States in your non-conference or teams like that. And Fresno, Texas, Fresno, Texas,
20:31 Arkansas state, because now you've got to be up week after week, way more than you've ever been,
20:36 or you get beat by a team that you are clearly better than, cause that just happens. So I'm
20:40 curious to see how that plays out. The other thing, my other thought is sec, big 10, their
20:45 schedules are so much harder. Okay. Then the big 12, the ACC. And so personally, if I'm a voter,
20:53 if there's a tenant to big 12 ACC team and a nine and three big 10 sec team, I'm putting the nine
20:59 and three team in, and I'm not even thinking twice about it. So I think nine and three gets you in.
21:05 I think if I'm a big 12 ACC team, I got to be like 11 and one. I'm thinking I'm in trouble
21:11 compared to big 10 sec teams with the at-large college football playoff bids. What do you think?
21:15 Yeah, that's fair. I mean, like it does change things when all of a sudden you look at the big
21:19 10, which was really good last year or good at the top. I mean, you can make a debate on the
21:24 middle and certainly not so great at the bottom, but now you put USC, Oregon, Washington, UCLA in
21:30 there. It's a, it's a completely different conference. All four of those teams are in
21:33 the top third. So that's probably fair. I was just trying to pull up the ranking.
21:38 So after championship weekend last year, the, the highest rank three loss team was LSU and
21:44 they were 13. So they were on the outside looking in. So yeah, will that be a little
21:49 different with the new conferences and the way things are laid out? And you, you certainly look
21:53 at strength of schedule a little differently. Now I've always been curious how much they even care
21:57 about. It seems like sometimes they do care about it. Sometimes they don't, you get credit for a
22:02 close loss. If it's against a good team, more than a win. And so I'm like, what is that by the way?
22:07 Doesn't a win mean more no matter what, like anyway, you're, you may be right. It's, it's a
22:12 lot of, there's a lot of changes this year. But just kind of generally, you know, historically,
22:18 there's enough teams that are undefeated or one or two losses. I think it's tough for a three loss
22:23 team to get in, but that's, I guess that's one of the fun things about how this year is going to
22:27 look. You've got 12 teams getting in now and we don't know how it's going to work exactly. And
22:31 the committee will inevitably off like half the country anyway. So we'll we'll let them figure it
22:36 out. But yeah, last year, three losses wouldn't have been, wouldn't have been good enough. So
22:40 it's going to be fun to watch how that plays out in 2024. Yeah, that's bad. That's a bad look for
22:44 the big 12, but there is one of those things where you look at that map. I mean, outside of the state
22:49 of Texas, which now Texas is not even in the big 12 anymore. So that's so weird to say, but outside
22:56 of the state of Texas, the big 12 footprint doesn't have a lot of those high end blue chip prospects
23:01 that are in the South or out West. And again, there's a bunch in Texas, but now that's not even
23:05 really, it's not even really a big 12 anymore. So yeah, that's again, the shifting of these
23:11 conferences, these mega conferences, you take, you take whatever the big 12 used to have as the
23:16 power players and they're not there anymore. That's tough. And so, yeah, that there's yet
23:21 another factor to the final 12. So it's, yeah, it's going to be, it's like a new, it's like a
23:25 new sport. Almost, it almost has been a new sport really for like the last three or four years with
23:29 NIL. And then you've got transfer portal and now the conferences and the playoff it's, it's a wild
23:35 West out there, man. I think it's going to eventually be the power to with sec, big 10,
23:41 then the next two or however they want to phrase the ACC, big 12 and then everybody else. Yeah. But
23:46 to be clear, Texas, Oklahoma, Texas, Santa Ana, we're in the top 20, but they're in the sec.
23:51 Yeah, exactly. Yep. All right. Ladies and gentlemen, I want to thank Brandon for
23:56 joining me. Thank you all as well. We'll see you next time.