Joe Nicholson is joined by Andrew French from the Watford Observer to preview Sunderland's Championship fixture against Watford.
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00:42 Hello and welcome to the Raw podcast brought to you by the Sunderland Echo.
00:47 We're back for another preview podcast and today we're going to be looking ahead
00:52 to Sunderland's championship match against Watford at the Stadium of Light on Wednesday.
00:57 So to preview the game, joining myself, Joe Nicholson.
01:00 We're joined by Andrew French from the Watford Observer.
01:04 Andrew, what's the feeling like at Watford ahead of Wednesday's match?
01:09 I wouldn't say the fans are overly confident. We are on a dreadful away run.
01:14 We haven't won away from home since January 2nd, so that's 12 games,
01:20 14 if you throw in cup games. We haven't kept a clean sheet in any of those games either.
01:25 Coming off the back of a home defeat as well against your not-so-far-away neighbours,
01:30 yeah, there's not a great deal of positive anticipation for tomorrow night.
01:35 As you mentioned, Watford lost 3-2 against Middlesbrough last time out at home.
01:41 They beat QPR 4-0 on the opening day of the season, but since then they've won just one of their next
01:46 eight league games. Valerian Ismail was appointed in the summer, I was reading just before.
01:51 He was their 19th manager in 11 years at Watford, formerly at Barnsley and West Brom.
01:57 So how would you say they've been playing under him at Barnsley and West Brom?
02:01 He had a reputation, didn't he, of being a very direct manager? So what's it been like at Watford under him?
02:07 It's been wholesale change. I think we had over 20 players leave during the summer,
02:13 either sold, released, went back to their clubs after loans. Ismail's come in.
02:18 We've got a very, very thin squad of his choice. I mean, we're looking at sometimes less than
02:23 two players in each position and a completely different style of play to anything anybody expected.
02:28 I mean, there's no hoofball, there's no long direct. It's very much playing out from the back.
02:34 You'll see our goalkeeper will play 15, 20 yards outside his penalty area.
02:38 It'll almost act like a sweeper. It will be possession football.
02:43 The only change came against Middlesbrough on Saturday. We suddenly went from 4-3-3 to 3-5-2,
02:50 which the manager said himself was pretty much an unmitigated disaster.
02:54 We were two down in 20 minutes and it did look like we never played that formation before.
03:00 We switched back to 4-3-3 in the second half. Probably should have got a point out of it,
03:05 at least getting back to 2-2, but the damage is done when you've gone two down and the away team are flying.
03:11 The football has been good to watch. It hasn't delivered the results.
03:15 We're probably a few points shy of where we should be just because there's been games where we've drawn
03:23 and should have won or lost and should have drawn.
03:25 But at the end of the day, the points you've got are the points you've earned.
03:29 We've underachieved, but it's been in the context of a wholesale change.
03:35 You mentioned the wholesale changes and Watford obviously have this reputation of going through managers very quickly,
03:41 as I mentioned before, 19th manager in 11 years. We're now nine games in, Watford are 20th in the table.
03:47 Last season, I think we were about 10 games in and Rob Edwards got the sack.
03:51 Is Ishmael, is there suggestions that he's under pressure of getting the sack or have expectations changed significantly from last season?
03:59 I asked Ishmael about that on Saturday because I thought it was a valid question.
04:03 As you point out, we're coming up to the time Watford seem to have a liking for a sack in and around an international break.
04:09 He survived the first one, but we've got another one coming.
04:12 He was very confident. No, everything's aligned. I speak to the owner every week.
04:18 At the end of the day, the owner is the one who does all the hiring and firing, so everybody else at the club can be on the same page.
04:24 You're never quite sure where the owner is, but Ishmael feels that he has his back in.
04:29 There's been talk, both from Watford and from Ishmael, that there's a new contract offer on the table.
04:35 Bearing in mind, he only joined in the summer to get a new contract inside a couple of months.
04:41 I think that's aimed by the club to show that there is long-term commitment this time because you're right.
04:47 You can't avoid all the jokes about us changing managers as often as we do. It's fact.
04:53 But I think that long-term contract, followed on from the change that I mentioned earlier, is an indication the club are trying to show people that they have changed their ways and we're not going to be trigger-happy.
05:06 However, as you also point out, we're 20th in the league and we've got Sunderland away, followed by Cardiff away, and then the international break.
05:14 There's every chance we could be in the bottom three.
05:17 But all I can tell you is what Ishmael said on Saturday. He had no concern. Everything was aligned.
05:24 Everybody was on the same page and this is a rebuilding process that is going to take a number of transfer windows and a period of time.
05:32 What have the fans made of Ishmael?
05:34 Because there was obviously some disappointment when Rob Edwards left and then the fact that he went to Luton and got them up.
05:40 I'm sure a lot of fans weren't happy with that. But what have they made of Ishmael coming in?
05:44 They certainly were surprised by the style of play. Like anything, you know yourself, when a manager joins, everyone looks at what he's done before.
05:52 I think our fans were expecting a very direct style with a big centre-forward.
05:57 Even in pre-season, we were very much a ball-playing team that thrived on possession.
06:04 You look at the stats we've had so far this season, I think every game by one at Leeds we've had 55%, 60%, 65% possession.
06:12 So, we have a lot of the ball. And early on in the season, certainly that QPR game, we absolutely romped away with that.
06:18 Although, that has to be in the context that QPR were very bad that day.
06:22 But even in other games where we drew at home to Plymouth, we lost at home to Blackburn, we drew at Coventry, the performances have been decent.
06:32 It's certainly more fun to watch than anything we served up last season.
06:37 But ultimately, football is a results-driven industry.
06:41 He said himself that results have to change. We have to turn these good performances and the possession into goals and points.
06:48 But I think the Watford fans, already there is a little bit of, has his time come to an end?
06:54 Should we be as patient as we are? But that, I think, has been created by the way the club operate.
07:00 If you show a fan base over a period of 10 years that you're going to replace the manager whenever there's a slight hint of trouble,
07:08 then in the end, that's what they think you're going to do and that's what they expect.
07:11 I personally would like to think we'd give him more time because we would be playing up to the narrative if at the first hiccup, we sack Tish Manning or somebody else.
07:22 This is supposed to be a rebuild after all. So, the fans, from what I can see of it, they're pretty mixed.
07:27 There's one side of the fence that's, 'No, we've got to give him time. We can't keep sacking managers.'
07:31 And then there's the other side of the fence, 'Well, yeah, that's fine, but we could be in the bottom three at the international break.'
07:37 I think it would be a pleasant surprise and would help Ishmael if we got a couple of points, three points this week, from these two away games.
07:45 You mentioned that he changed the shape against Middlesbrough, switching from a 4-3-3 to more of a 3-5-2.
07:52 So, what were his reasons behind that and how do you think they'll set up now against Sunderland?
07:58 I'd be amazed if we play 3-5-2, it was that bad. He said that himself.
08:03 He came into the press remarks and said, 'Look, that one's on me. That was a bad decision.'
08:07 The reasoning behind it, I'd spoken to him the day before and certainly there had been a feeling as the season has gone on that, maybe like our fans,
08:18 other teams weren't expecting us to play the way we did. So, QPR got a proper shock on the opening day.
08:23 And in the first three, four, five games, there was that element of surprise that people were expecting a long ball team
08:29 and here they were watching us play triangles in our own half.
08:32 But as time's gone on and obviously scouts have got to see us and everything's there in television to see your performances,
08:38 teams were expecting that. And we went to Leeds and they were ready for us and batted us.
08:45 It was one of the most one-sided three nils. It did us a favour, that score.
08:50 And I think from what he said on Friday, he wanted to see if we could be more flexible and less predictable.
08:56 And I'd asked him, 'Does that mean impersonal or shape?' And he said, 'It could mean both.'
09:01 I don't think anybody expects us to suddenly go 3-5-2. And also, he left out one or two players that it was hard to explain.
09:09 So, Matthias Martins, who's probably been our best player, certainly attack-wise this season, didn't start on Saturday.
09:15 He brought him on in the second half and he immediately had an impact. But to go 3-5-2 was a big step.
09:22 To then leave Martins out and also Tom Ince, who'd been good on the other flank, it was almost like we did too much too soon.
09:29 So, I'd be amazed if we go 3-5-2. I think, you know, it'll be 4-3-3.
09:36 And depending on how Sunderland treat that, that will dictate how much we have of the ball.
09:42 But we certainly, away from home, have been keen to be the bosses of possession.
09:47 Have a lot of the ball, happy to play a round at the back.
09:50 But as you look at our stats, we've also shipped goals away from home.
09:54 And as I say, we haven't won since January. So, I wouldn't say he'll be safety first.
10:00 He's not like that. But I don't think he's going to be too cavalier either.
10:04 I was just going to ask you, how do you think the side will set up against Sunderland?
10:09 Because we've just got the possession stats up here. And like you say, Watford are second in the championship in terms of possession with 59.6%.
10:17 On average, Sunderland are actually fourth with 59.3. So, two sides that have seen a lot of the ball in their games.
10:24 Sunderland have had it where teams have come to the Stadium of Light and sat very deep and made it difficult for Sunderland to break them down.
10:30 But how do you think Watford will approach the game? Do you think they'll be more pragmatic?
10:34 Or it sounds like what you're saying, they will come and try and dominate possession.
10:38 Yeah, he's not someone who sets up to sit deep, unless there is another change.
10:44 But certainly in all the away games so far this season, the press has been really high.
10:49 And it's quite a dynamic press. It suddenly springs into life.
10:52 And you'll see the three attacking players right up on the edge of the visitors' pit or the home side's penalty area.
10:59 Now, whether you can do that against a side like Sunderland, who also like to have the ball,
11:04 I mean, you could be slit your own throat there because you're leaving gaps in behind.
11:07 But he's very much a high press, win the ball back.
11:11 I mean, you know, when he explains his theory, it's really quite simple.
11:14 It's get hold of the ball as far away as you can from your own goal.
11:18 And that's what he wants to do. When he gets it in his own half, he's quite happy to, as I say, play keep ball.
11:24 But again, certainly at Leeds, they didn't let us do that. They shut us down very early on.
11:31 And while we tried to play keep ball and we did it to an extent, we never looked comfortable.
11:36 You know, it's that situation where the defenders are getting the ball with someone chasing them down
11:41 and they're passing it around like a hot potato. And in the end, we went a bit more direct.
11:46 And I mean, Leeds was just a disaster. It's an awful day all round.
11:50 Whether that will make him do something different at Sunderland, I don't know.
11:53 But I'd be amazed if he sits deep. We've not done that against anybody, even against Leeds.
11:59 When we were under pressure, we were still leaving three players up front.
12:03 So, yeah, I mean, it could be interesting against a side that, as you say, likes to dominate the ball as well,
12:09 to see if we can do that. But certainly away from home, I think the stats would show,
12:13 I think we've had more possession than the home team in all our away games, except against Leeds.
12:19 You mentioned earlier about the changes that have happened over the summer.
12:23 And over the summer, Watford sold two of their more well-known players for big money in Jao Pedro
12:27 and Ismaila Saar, with Saar, I think with the supporters, kind of felt that he wasn't producing the performances
12:33 that he was capable of. But who are now the key players at Watford that will be important for them in the game against Sunderland?
12:42 Well, I think, provided he starts, Matthias Martins has been very dangerous for us.
12:47 He was with us last season. He's actually a Udinese player that's loaned to us.
12:53 And I won't go into the whys and wherefores of how that relationship works,
12:56 but he's not the first Udinese player that we've loaned, and I'm sure he won't be the last.
13:01 Very, very attack-minded winger, sort of, maybe not an out-and-out winger, but likes to play wide.
13:08 And what Ismaila does is, Martins is predominantly right-footed and he's been playing him on the left.
13:13 So, he will attack the full-back and then come inside. And he scored two or three times doing that,
13:19 just literally coming in off the flank and whipping in shots. He's a very different player to Saar.
13:25 He's not languid like Saar was. He's all action. He's hustle and bustle. He's physically strong.
13:32 When he's on his game, he's very hard to handle. What's noticeable is he struggles to last 90 minutes.
13:39 I think he's only played one full 90 all season. Now, the fans would leave him on for the whole game,
13:45 but as we know with sports science and data, they're always looking at these sort of things.
13:48 And I think the managers get the feeling that the way he plays, he struggles to survive the full 90.
13:54 So, he hasn't. He's, I say, just one 90 minutes. But he would be a key player.
13:59 The other one would be Imran Luzer, the Moroccan international.
14:03 He was probably, alongside Saar and Jair Pedro last season, everyone felt they were our three,
14:08 star men. And we obviously lost two. Luzer stayed. Luzer has the potential on his day to be a match winner.
14:16 He just doesn't have enough days when he does it. On Saturday against Middlesbrough,
14:22 he was almost anonymous in the first half in the 3-5-2. Was there in the second half,
14:29 shows glimpses of it. When he pulls it together, he orchestrates us.
14:34 But teams obviously are aware of that and they'll double up on him or shut him down straightaway.
14:39 But those are the two, I think, going forward. At the back, it's literally how we play.
14:45 As I say, you'll watch us and our goalkeeper, Dan Backman, will be 20 yards outside his box.
14:51 It doesn't always go to plan. If you've seen the game at Coventry,
14:55 we scored an absolute peach of an own goal trying to play the ball around at the back.
15:00 Backman had passed it to Wes Hoop, who gave it back to him, except he wasn't there anymore.
15:04 And it went in from 25 yards. So the key thing is how it goes.
15:09 If Sunderland shut us down and we look as uncomfortable as we did at Leeds,
15:13 then it could be a really long, painful night.
15:17 Just on Sunderland, have you seen much of them this season?
15:21 And how do you think the two sides will match up at the Stadium of Light?
15:24 I can't say I've seen too much of you this season. As you know, Joe,
15:27 you tend to focus on the teams you're covering.
15:31 But I remember I didn't expect us to be doing this again this season,
15:37 because I thought one of us would get up last season.
15:40 And I remember coming to Sunderland towards the end and we were two up and you got a point.
15:44 And I thought that might be the sort of catalyst for you to go on and do better things
15:48 and get out of the division. But it wasn't.
15:52 I think Watford fans still see Sunderland as one of the big teams in the division.
15:56 And they are. You look at the fan base, they're massive.
16:00 But we've already played Leeds and you look at Leicester and think,
16:03 well, they should be there and thereabouts. I think Watford fans would put Sunderland
16:07 in that bracket of teams that we would need to finish above if we're going to do anything.
16:11 And at the moment, I think generally we're sort of expecting a mid-table season
16:16 and we probably won't be troubling the top six. Might be.
16:20 But I think we'll be looking over our shoulders and anything else.
16:23 And I think, you know, we'll put it this way. Watford fans are expecting tomorrow night
16:28 to be really difficult. I think we might in the past have come and expected to have more of a chance.
16:34 I think if we were to get anything tomorrow night, it would be a pleasant surprise in the minds of the fans.
16:39 Yeah, you mentioned the game the last time they played. Sunderland coming from 2-0 down.
16:43 Patrick Roberts scored an excellent late equaliser to get a 2-2 draw that day.
16:47 And that point actually was significant as Sunderland got into the playoffs,
16:51 right at the end being pressed on the last day. So we'll see how it plays out on Wednesday.
16:55 But just before we finish, Andrew, we just finished by asking our guests just for a quick score prediction.
17:00 And how do you think the game is going to go?
17:03 I think it will be very interesting to see now that you've mentioned the way Sunderland like to play,
17:09 which team dominates possession. And it will be interesting if Watford are a little bit more cautious
17:14 because of the fact they need to get points on the board. I think it will be very difficult for us.
17:19 It's a tough place to go, particularly on a Wednesday night. We won't have many fans there.
17:23 It's always a really good atmosphere. The Sunderland fans are some of the noisiest and best I've ever encountered.
17:29 I hate to be negative, but I think a home win, maybe 2-0, 2-1.
17:35 Yeah, I was going to say 2-1. Sunderland got back to winning ways on Friday, where it sheffield Wednesday,
17:41 although it wasn't the strongest opposition. They have been in good form.
17:44 They were on a good winning run until they lost to Cardiff the weekend before, which was an unfortunate defeat,
17:50 really conceding one from a set piece. But back to winning ways at Sheffield Wednesday.
17:53 And I think they're in good form going into the game against Watford.
17:57 A couple of injuries still we'll find out later today from Tony Mowbray, what the situation is on that.
18:02 So we're recording this on Tuesday morning, but we'll wrap it up there.
18:06 Andrew, thanks a lot for joining me on the latest episode of the RAW podcast.
18:11 And for all the latest SAFC news, you can head over to the SAFC section of the Sunderland Echo website.
18:17 You can find the thoughts of head coach Tony Mowbray, who will be speaking on Tuesday afternoon ahead of the game.
18:22 And then we'll have more build up to the match on Wednesday.
18:25 We'll also have live updates from the Stadium of Light as Sunderland take on Watford, as well as post-match reaction and analysis.
18:32 So once again, thank you so much for listening to the RAW podcast.
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