Joe Nicholson is joined by Norwich City writer Connor Southwell from The Pink Un to discuss Saturday's Championship match between Sunderland and Norwich at Carrow Road
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00:00 Hello and welcome to the RAW podcast brought to you by the Sunderland Echo.
00:28 We're back for another preview podcast ahead of Sunderland's championship match against
00:34 Norwich City at Carrow Road.
00:36 So joining myself, Joe Nicholson, we are joined by Norwich writer Connor Southwell from The
00:41 Pink Un.
00:42 Connor, thanks a lot for joining us and just looking at the results, I imagine it's been
00:47 a bit easier to write about Norwich in recent weeks.
00:50 Yeah, thanks for having me, Joe.
00:52 Yeah, I think that's fair to say.
00:54 It's been a lot more pleasurable than it was for the months before Christmas, I would say.
00:58 And yeah, they're in a real nice position at the moment, which is nice.
01:03 So certainly from this end, long may it continue.
01:06 Yeah, just looking at the table, Norwich up to seventh in the championship, just three
01:11 points off the playoffs.
01:13 Their recent results, they've had three wins and two draws in their last five.
01:17 And the last time Sunderland fans would have seen Norwich against Sunderland was back in
01:21 October, a game which Sunderland won 3-1 at the Stadium of Light.
01:26 Norwich were in a poor run of form at that stage and there seemed to be some serious
01:30 questions about whether David Wagner would keep his job there.
01:33 They've obviously stuck with him.
01:35 So are you able to kind of tell us how the kind of last few months have played out with
01:39 Wagner still there?
01:41 Yeah, and to be honest, those questions, even in the really good runs this season, have
01:45 still existed around David Wagner.
01:48 It's been really difficult for him to shift.
01:50 Norwich beat Watford a couple of weeks ago at home 4-2 and some of his substitutions
01:55 while Norwich were 2-1 up in that game were booed.
01:57 And there was some chance of you don't know what you're doing.
01:59 And he had a little pop back after the game as well, which I think a few people have seen.
02:04 Yeah, I mean, the Sunderland game was, I felt at that stage, watching him in his post-match,
02:11 you know, we get to watch managers post-match and you can often tell sort of from body language
02:16 and from the way they speak and things they say sometimes.
02:19 And I felt, to be completely honest, that he felt at the Stadium of Light, that was
02:23 the end of the road for him, from the way he was speaking, from the way he delivered
02:27 some of his messages, from his tone, from his demeanour and his body language.
02:31 And I think I probably left the Stadium of Light that night thinking, this is it.
02:36 This is probably the last time that, you know, we're going to see him.
02:38 He was in charge for the game following that, which was Blackburn Rovers at home.
02:44 Norwich City were resoundingly beaten 3-1 on that occasion.
02:48 They were woeful.
02:49 And if Sunderland didn't feel like the end point, then that definitely did.
02:53 He was helped a little bit because Norwich had a change in sporting director.
02:57 So around that period, Stuart Webber, who was due to leave later in November, accelerated
03:01 his departure.
03:02 Ben Knapper came in a little bit earlier from Arsenal and then they won away at Cardiff
03:08 and that led to an international break.
03:10 Again, I think that maybe the common feeling was, because of all the movements that had
03:14 happened and accelerations of people's arrivals and whatnot, that he was going to lose his
03:18 job.
03:19 At that point, I think they've only lost four games and they've really been on kind of a
03:24 problem-solving journey, I would say.
03:26 They were too open in transition, as you guys would have seen at the Stadium of Light, too
03:29 easy to play against, essentially.
03:33 I think as a coaching team and as the playing staff, they sat down in that November international
03:38 break and said, we've got to change.
03:40 We've got to change what we are and what we're trying to do.
03:42 They made themselves more defensively solid and they went from a stage of conceding two
03:46 goals a game, as they were on average, to half in that.
03:49 So conceding an R roughly around that sort of mark now, conceding one a game.
03:54 And in really subtle tweaks in terms of just one full-back attacking instead of two all
03:58 the time and having a number six that sits a little bit more than they were doing.
04:04 So it made themselves a little bit tougher to beat.
04:06 And then they got to a stage in January where they weren't scoring enough goals and they
04:09 maybe tipped too far the other way.
04:11 So they had to kind of readdress that balance, which was helped partly by Josh Sargent returning
04:16 and the impact that he's had on their season.
04:19 And in the last few weeks, up to probably Blackburn, really, it felt like they had a
04:24 really nice balance about them and kind of hit that sweet spot between looking maybe
04:29 not solid completely, but definitely looking better defensively than they had, but also
04:33 combining that with some real attacking Verve.
04:35 So yeah, it feels like it's been about three seasons in one.
04:39 I'm sure it feels about seven, you guys up there.
04:43 But yeah, they're in a really good run of form at the moment, particularly at Carrow
04:47 Road where they're 10-0 unbeaten.
04:49 They haven't actually lost there since that Blackburn game.
04:51 So yeah, they're in a really good way.
04:54 They've got a bit of a swagger about them at the moment.
04:57 What's the view about Wagner now with the fan base?
04:59 You mentioned that they had a bit of criticism and as some of the fans will know with Michael
05:03 Beale, if a fan base aren't happy with the manager, it's very difficult for him to turn
05:08 that around.
05:09 So have some Norwich fans been turned or is there still kind of questions on Wagner and
05:13 what will be the expectations this season?
05:15 I think, and you got this a little bit after Saturday, I'm sure you guys have got it or
05:19 had it with Mick Beale as well.
05:22 You can win a couple of games but lose one.
05:24 And when you lose that one or Norwich don't pick up three points in one, as they didn't
05:29 at the weekend against Blackburn, you begin to hear these kind of arguments again for
05:33 why he's not the right man and that sort of fan base.
05:36 And that's something that he's had to contest with all through the season.
05:39 I think it's very difficult.
05:41 He went on a run of one win in 11 at the back in the last season.
05:45 Then it was seven defeats in nine in that autumn period where Norwich came to the stain
05:48 of light.
05:49 A lot of people have made their mind up on him really.
05:51 And as you said, football fans usually aren't returning when they've made their mind up
05:57 on someone.
05:58 And I would say even though, and maybe the best assessment of how he's done is that some
06:03 of that noise has been quieter in recent weeks.
06:06 It's not and has never really this season fully gone away.
06:09 And that's the problem that he's got.
06:11 I think it feels like after everything came to a head against Watford a couple of weeks
06:15 ago, there's been a little bit of a truce now for the final 12 games to try and push
06:18 the team over the line into the top six.
06:21 But yeah, I can guarantee you a couple of results in the negative column and we'll be
06:27 back in that place talking about David Vardyna's future again, I'd imagine.
06:31 You mentioned some of the things there that he changed tactically, but how will they set
06:35 up against Sunderland at Carrow Road on Saturday?
06:38 You mentioned there the home form is a lot better than their away form.
06:42 Just having a quick look now at home, Norwich 1-11 drawn two, lost four this season away,
06:47 won four, drawn five and lost eight.
06:50 So how will they set up against Sunderland?
06:52 What's been the difference between that home and away form?
06:54 Yeah, I think that's a question that a lot of people have been scratching their heads
06:57 and asking this week, actually, because four wins on the road for a team that is trying
07:01 to get in the playoffs.
07:02 I mean, it's clearly the Achilles heel for them, really.
07:05 If you look at the pure numbers on it, they are a top six championship side at home and
07:10 basically a bottom six championship side away.
07:12 And it's really hard to understand why that is the case.
07:16 And in terms of how they'll set up, they're pretty consistent.
07:20 It'll be a sort of a 4-2-2-2, sort of without the ball and more of a three diamond three
07:27 with it.
07:28 They build up in that kind of way and they are, you know, they're quite attractive.
07:34 I wouldn't say it's necessarily massively innovative what they try and do.
07:37 They try and essentially work an opening on either flank and then try with a massive diagonal
07:42 to work a crossing opportunity and play off that.
07:44 So if you can halt Norwich in those areas, then I think that there is success to be had
07:49 for you, as Blackburn found actually.
07:52 And yeah, I really don't know.
07:54 And it's funny because there's been a lot of debate around sort of Norwich fans, whether
07:57 they've been too negative or too entitled at home.
07:59 And actually, you look at their home record and it's been very, very good.
08:02 So that doesn't necessarily stack up with some of the discourse that's been around.
08:06 So yeah, I don't know, honestly, I don't know what it is.
08:10 But obviously the away form issue does put a lot of pressure on your home form.
08:14 And that means essentially that Norwich with six home games and six away games left are
08:18 basically going to have to win all their home games if they want to keep it this kind of
08:21 two points a game rate, which is going to be needed to get them in the top six.
08:24 So there's a lot of pressure on them.
08:26 VARCON is pretty consistent in the way that they play.
08:30 And I think to be fair, in the last few weeks, they've seen a little bit more success and
08:34 look a little bit more comfortable playing the way that he wants them to.
08:37 And that's, you know, I know when they came to the Stadium of Light in October, as you
08:40 mentioned, they've had a lot of injuries and they had a lot of people out.
08:44 They've got some key personnel back now.
08:45 And I think what we are seeing with this Norwich side is that they've got a very good starting
08:50 side.
08:51 Their depth is a little bit of an issue.
08:53 And I think when they're called upon, you know, even from the bench, I think you can
08:56 see a deterioration in their performance levels.
08:58 So that's kind of what I would say.
09:01 And yeah, as for on the road, your guess is as good as mine, really.
09:04 Well, it's not just Norwich that have got a much better home record than away.
09:08 Sunderland are pretty similar, actually.
09:10 Only won four games away from home this season out of 17.
09:14 Their home form a lot better, which is interesting because last season Sunderland were very good
09:18 away from home, particularly at the end of the season.
09:20 Yeah, same with Norwich.
09:21 Yeah, same with Norwich.
09:22 It was almost, sorry, it was almost Angus Gunn mentioned it in the weekend.
09:29 It was almost this time last year, as you said, it was their away form really that was
09:32 keeping them in touch with the playoffs.
09:34 This year it's the home form.
09:35 So it's really bizarre because, you know, we think about it.
09:38 It's the same pitch.
09:39 It's the same laws they're playing with.
09:40 I know it's a different ball, but it's kind of a league wide ball.
09:43 So there shouldn't really be anything that makes that so drastic.
09:47 But we see it in teams so commonly.
09:49 Yeah, they said their Sunderland got that win at Norwich end of last season.
09:54 I think it was around March time.
09:55 They got a 1-0 win with Abdullah Barre, scoring the only goal of the game.
09:58 That was kind of a kind of a platform which kind of allowed Sunderland to kick on and
10:02 then reach the playoffs towards the end of last season.
10:05 But you mentioned injuries there and one player that didn't play in the game back in October
10:09 was Josh Shard and you mentioned as well.
10:12 Just looking at his stats, very impressive.
10:15 14 championship games this season, 10 goals.
10:18 Since he's been back, it's seven goals in I think it's 10 games.
10:23 So obviously a huge boost to have him back and just how important has it been to have
10:26 him back and scoring those goals?
10:28 Yeah, he's averaging a goal at the moment every 89 minutes.
10:31 I think he's only completed three or four 90s across the whole season.
10:36 It's phenomenal really what he's been able to do.
10:38 And I think the scary thing about it is, and I spoke to him after Norwich beat Cardiff
10:44 at home, sorry, and he was essentially very open with the fact that he is not fully fit.
10:48 He is managing this ankle issue that he's got even now and it can be a bit day to day.
10:53 So he can wake up one day and be in lots of pain and not be able to do much in terms of
10:58 training and he can wake up the next day and feel absolutely fine.
11:01 So the reality is it may well depend how he wakes up on Saturday morning, how he plays.
11:06 But he's had a profound impact and I think he's really interesting.
11:10 And you look across the championship and you look at the goal scoring charts and all of
11:13 those type of things, there isn't what I would classify as a typical number nine in there.
11:17 I know Sunderland have had some issues with number nines across the season, but they're
11:21 all kind of goal scoring wide players and Adam Armstrong.
11:24 He is very conventional.
11:26 He's kind of a complete striker in that sense.
11:28 Good in the air, good with his back to goal, good in the box, good finisher.
11:32 He's really improved his movement in behind as well.
11:34 And this is kind of his first season playing as a nine.
11:37 He's kind of played out wide for Norwich, largely because obviously Teme Pukki was at
11:41 the club and whilst he was producing the goals and had the sort of credit in the bank that
11:45 he did here, it was always going to be very difficult for someone to kind of unseat him,
11:49 so to speak.
11:50 So he's had to be a little bit patient.
11:51 And I think you sense now that he's taking his opportunity.
11:55 And yeah, he is Norwich City's main threat.
11:57 If you stop him scoring, particularly with Jon Rowe out, as he is until April, then by
12:03 and large, not completely because they've got goals from other areas, but by and large,
12:06 you stop a main source of their goals, I would say.
12:09 Yeah, you mentioned Jonny Rowe there as well, a player that was going to come on too.
12:12 Norwich's top scorer this season.
12:14 He's out with a hamstring injury.
12:16 Yeah, yeah.
12:17 He's going to be out for some time.
12:18 He's going to miss Saturday's match.
12:20 But who are the other kind of key players in this Norwich side that some of the fans
12:24 will have to watch out for?
12:25 Yeah, we spoke about Sargent.
12:27 I think Borja Sainz, who plays on the left, is a Spanish winger.
12:31 He's been probably a little bit too inconsistent for my liking, but just capable of, you know,
12:36 one moment of quality, and we've seen it on a couple of occasions, a couple of bounce
12:39 passes, and he's put a shot in the top corner against Sheffield Wednesday more recently
12:44 as well at home.
12:46 So he's a player that can produce something from nothing, but he's a little bit fiery.
12:50 So I think he's quite easy to wind up and didn't have the best game, excuse me, against
12:55 Blackburn at the weekend.
12:57 Gabriel Sarra is, for me, one of the league's best progressive midfielders.
13:02 You look at kind of his chance creation statistics and his output as well.
13:06 Again, he's come off a little bit of a, by his standards, a little bit of a barren run.
13:10 He's not been too bad and, you know, he's got a very high bar.
13:13 I think David Wagner says he doesn't really drop below good.
13:18 He can sometimes be very good, but very rarely drops below good.
13:22 He's someone, again, that has real quality, both in terms of goals, but also in terms
13:26 of chance creation as well.
13:28 And then someone in really good form at the moment is Marcelino Nunez, a little bit of
13:31 an injury down for this weekend.
13:32 He limped out of their draw against Blackburn, scored a wonderful free kick in that game.
13:37 But someone who plays a little bit deeper and he's more of a kind of metronome almost.
13:42 He keeps them ticking rather than someone who is sort of at the top end of the pitch
13:45 creating opportunities.
13:47 But again, he asserts or allows Norwich to assert real control within games, particularly
13:52 when he drops between those two centre-backs and can kind of display the range of passing
13:56 that he has.
13:57 And he's, as I said, finds himself in a real purple patch at the moment, been a little
14:01 bit up and down since joining Norwich from South America.
14:04 So yeah, those are probably the primary names heading into this weekend.
14:09 But some honourable mentions, Christian Faschnacht is very capable of scoring a goal.
14:14 Ashley Barnes is in a good way at the moment as well.
14:17 There are a lot of Norwich players.
14:18 Jack Stacey is also in a good rhythm.
14:21 There's a lot of Norwich players who are in a good stretch of form at this moment in time
14:25 just over the last few weeks.
14:27 So yeah, I wish I could offer more kind of positivity from a Sunderland perspective,
14:33 but this does feel like quite a poor time to play Norwich at this moment in time.
14:38 Yeah.
14:39 Well, someone who hasn't been playing that I'm sure Sunderland fans will be interested
14:43 to know why is Danny Bart, who was voted Sunderland's player of the season last season.
14:50 He was happy to stay at Sunderland, but had a year left on his contract and was told that
14:55 he would be allowed to leave the club.
14:57 He then went to Norwich, who I think had some injuries at centre-back at the time, but he's
15:01 only made 10 championship appearances.
15:03 Only four of them have been starts.
15:06 And then looking at the team sheets, it seems like even when players are injured, Kenny
15:09 McLean has dropped back into centre-back, who is seen as a midfield player.
15:13 So why hasn't Bart been able to force his way into this Norwich side?
15:18 Yeah, and that's the exact question that a lot of Norwich fans have been wondering as
15:23 well.
15:24 I think there's a fair degree of being a player of the season in a side that were in the playoffs
15:27 last season.
15:28 There was a lot of excitement around him.
15:29 I think that's probably fair to say.
15:31 And obviously the mechanics of it, and you mapped it out there, Norwich lost to Andrew
15:34 O'Meara Amadele very, very late on deadline day to Nottingham Forest.
15:38 They moved quickly to sign Danny Bart, who's a player that Stuart Webber had a knowledge
15:43 and a relationship with from their time together at Wolves.
15:48 And yeah, it just, when all of the options have been fit, Shane Duffy, Ben Gibson, Grant
15:53 Hanley, Danny Bart, he's kind of been fourth choice in that sort of pecking order, really.
15:58 But even then, I mean, the last few weeks have documented, I mean, you kind of said
16:02 it, Ben Gibson dropped out with an injury and they've preferred Kenny McLean in there
16:07 because David Wagner likes to have a right-left kind of footed balance at the back in order
16:11 to kind of help their build-up and what they do on the ball.
16:14 And then on the right side, even Grant Hanley's come back from what was a pretty major Achilles
16:19 injury that kept him out basically from Easter last year till Christmas this year.
16:23 So about eight months really, all told.
16:27 And so they've had to manage him a little bit.
16:29 He dropped out a couple of weeks ago and they put in Jakob Sorensen, who's kind of a defensive
16:32 midfielder on the right side.
16:33 Danny Bart was reduced onto the bench.
16:35 We saw it again on Saturday.
16:36 Hanley, again, because of this kind of management cycle that they're in with him, signalled
16:41 that he wanted to come off.
16:43 Sorensen was the one that they pulled from the bench instead of Danny Bart.
16:46 So it's hard to say anything really other than David Wagner, for whatever reason, just
16:51 doesn't seem to be having him.
16:53 I think there's probably factors in that.
16:56 He was part, a very small part, but he was part of their poor run.
17:01 I think there's maybe some concerns around distribution as well and maybe even athleticism
17:06 at points.
17:07 They like to play with quite a high line when they can.
17:09 But that being said, the options that they do have aren't rapid and I wouldn't necessarily
17:13 say that he's any slower than any of them.
17:15 So yeah, and to be honest, when he has played, he's done okay.
17:19 So it is a head-scratcher really.
17:24 And yeah, pretty damning on him.
17:25 Obviously, his contract here is up at the end of the season.
17:28 I think it's very difficult to see any kind of outcome now that would lead to that getting
17:32 renewed or to be frank, for him wanting it to be renewed, it just hasn't worked out.
17:37 And it's a real shame because when he joined the club, as I said, there was a lot of, excitement's
17:44 maybe a bit strong, but definitely a lot of respect towards him and what he'd achieved
17:47 at Sunderland.
17:48 The fact that we haven't really seen him, I think, has been baffling throughout this
17:52 season.
17:53 Yeah, certainly a very important player for Sunderland last season, as kind of proved
17:57 by the fact that he was voted the fans player of the season.
17:59 So yes, it's strange to see that he hasn't kind of kicked on and been getting more game
18:04 time at Norwich.
18:05 But just on Sunderland, it's just interesting to kind of ask other people, other reporters
18:10 from the outside looking in, kind of what have you made of their season?
18:13 Have you seen much of this season aside from that game in October at the Stadium of Light?
18:18 Not huge amounts, to be completely honest.
18:21 I actually, and I said this to someone else yesterday, but I came away from the Stadium
18:27 of Light basically convinced that Sunderland would be a top six side because of the performance
18:32 that they produced, because of the players that they had.
18:35 I think even at that point, you could tell they were a little bit short in terms of a
18:38 number nine and that was obvious, but it didn't seem to matter that day against Norwich because
18:44 they were excellent.
18:45 And from what I have seen and saw, particularly under Tony Mowbray, I was always really infused
18:51 and excited to watch Sunderland play if they were ever on TV and there was an opportunity
18:55 to watch them, that there was that.
18:56 And I really like what they've done with young players.
18:59 And again, we could probably have a debate over whether Norwich have gone in one direction
19:03 with it, whether they've gone too far in the other, and you always need to find a balance.
19:07 But yeah, I was a little bit surprised to see Mowbray leave in the fashion that he did,
19:14 to see Mick Beal as the man who's parachuted in.
19:17 I think even externally, to me, that never really felt like a great fit, to be completely
19:24 honest, and particularly after everything that had happened at Rangers and the size
19:28 of Sunderland Football Club.
19:29 And it was clear from the initial reaction that the fans weren't having him.
19:32 And as we've discussed in terms of Wagner, if that's kind of the mood and the feeling,
19:38 it's hard to know where you go from there.
19:39 So yeah, I've always, you know, I wouldn't say I've got a soft spot or anything like
19:45 that, but I've always enjoyed watching Sunderland and always enjoyed games against Sunderland
19:50 and going to the Stamia Light, even though it's quite a trek up the A1 and whatnot.
19:54 But yeah, and obviously Norwich and Sunderland have a pre-existing relationship going back
19:58 to the Cup final all those years ago, and the friendly cup that the two sides play for
20:03 every season.
20:04 So yeah, I'm surprised, I will say finally, I'm just surprised how much their season's
20:10 kind of told, not told off, because it's still very much in it and a win at Carrow Road would
20:15 kind of put them back in the debate.
20:17 But I expected them to be maybe where West Brom are at this moment in time, after I left
20:23 the Stamia Light that day.
20:24 And I don't know, you're in a better place than me.
20:26 But it feels externally like a lot of that is through their own making, why perhaps they
20:30 aren't there.
20:31 Yeah, it feels definitely like they've regressed from that game in October.
20:35 And thinking back to that game, I remember speaking to Dan Neal, the Sunderland midfielder,
20:38 after the game, or it was maybe a few weeks after, and he was saying how much it felt
20:42 like the side had progressed playing Norwich, because when they played Norwich at the Stadium
20:46 of Light the season before in their first game back, the first season back in the Championship,
20:50 he said that he found that really tough.
20:52 He really felt the level had gone up, stepping up to the Championship.
20:55 But then the way that they were able to get the better of Norwich at the Stadium of Light
20:59 kind of showed to him that Sunderland were going in the right direction and they'd progressed
21:03 a lot in 12 months' time.
21:05 Whereas now, it seems like Sunderland have gone backwards and Norwich have improved under
21:09 Wagner, as you say.
21:11 So it is kind of interesting to see how both sides have kind of gone since that game back
21:16 in October.
21:17 But we usually just finish Connor by just asking our guests for a quick score prediction.
21:20 How do you think the game is going to go between Sunderland and Norwich on Saturday?
21:24 Yeah, it's hard to bet against Norwich at the moment, particularly at Cow Road, which
21:28 has been, as outlined, a bit of a fortress for them, to be honest.
21:32 And I think it is the place where even the players look at as the place where they need
21:36 to take their points.
21:38 I think this is going to be really tight.
21:40 I could basically see 2-1 either way or a 1-1 draw.
21:45 Obviously, I'm representing Norwich, so I'm going to swing that way and go for a 2-1 Norwich
21:49 win.
21:50 But as I said, I think it will be a very, as last year was, to be fair, I think it will
21:53 be a very tight contest.
21:56 There are similarities with the game last year, because I think Sunderland were about
21:59 seven points off the playoffs, kind of around this stage of the season again.
22:02 They're now eight points off the playoffs and really need a win to kind of keep their
22:05 season alive.
22:07 And I think after that Norwich game, Sunderland maybe only lost one more game all season before
22:12 getting into the playoffs.
22:13 So it is a big game for them.
22:15 They do have a kind of these kind of big matches where they have to pull out a result against
22:19 the better teams.
22:20 They can do it.
22:21 They've shown that previously.
22:22 But I think perhaps with the form that Norwich are in, it could be a step too far.
22:26 So I'll go for a 2-1 Norwich win.
22:29 But I think Sunderland have shown under Mike Dodds, under their interim manager, he said
22:33 last week he's not afraid to make bold decisions to go and try and win the game.
22:37 And Sunderland really do have to try and win the game if they've got really try and get
22:42 their kind of playoff aspirations back on track.
22:44 But I think Norwich might be too strong for them.
22:46 But we'll see how it plays out on Saturday.
22:49 So Connor, thanks a lot for joining me on the latest episode of the Raw podcast.
22:54 And if you like what we do here at the Raw podcast, please consider subscribing on our
22:58 YouTube channel, Spotify, or wherever you listen to your podcasts and leave a review.
23:04 And for all the latest SAFC news, you can head over to the SAFC section of the Sunderland
23:09 Echo website.
23:10 We'll have all the build up ahead of Saturday's match at Carrow Road.
23:14 And we'll also have all live updates, analysis and more from the game on Saturday, Sunderland
23:20 take on Norwich.
23:21 So once again, thanks a lot for listening to the Raw podcast.
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