D Shivakumar, group vice-president, corporate strategy and business development, Aditya Birla Group in conversation with executive coach, Marshall Goldsmith.
Don't miss out on our exclusive interview with coach Goldsmith
https://www.outlookbusiness.com/speci...
Music: Hooksounds
#MarshallGoldsmith #LeadingEdge2018 #Business #OutlookBusiness #OutlookMagazine #OutlookGroup
Don't miss out on our exclusive interview with coach Goldsmith
https://www.outlookbusiness.com/speci...
Music: Hooksounds
#MarshallGoldsmith #LeadingEdge2018 #Business #OutlookBusiness #OutlookMagazine #OutlookGroup
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NewsTranscript
00:00 (upbeat music)
00:02 - Well, it's time for us to call upon
00:14 our special guest of the day,
00:17 Leadership and Management Coach, Dr. Marshall Goldsmith.
00:21 Recognized as the world's number one leadership coach,
00:26 Dr. Goldsmith has authored many management bestsellers,
00:30 including "What Got You Here Won't Get You There"
00:33 and "Triggers, Creating Behavior That Lasts,
00:36 Becoming the Person You Want to Be."
00:39 Engaging with him in a conversation
00:41 will be Mr. D. Shivakumar, Group Vice President,
00:45 Corporate Strategy and Business Development,
00:47 Aditya Birla Group.
00:49 Let's welcome with a huge round of applause, Dr. Goldsmith.
00:52 (audience applauding)
00:55 And Mr. Shivakumar.
00:56 Thank you, sirs, for joining me.
00:59 (upbeat music)
01:02 - Good to go?
01:06 - Hello.
01:07 - Okay.
01:10 So, good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen.
01:11 Absolute pleasure.
01:13 I'm sure that all of you know who Marshall is, et cetera.
01:16 Absolute pleasure.
01:17 I've read a number of his books.
01:18 So, I'll do it in two parts.
01:21 I have six questions for him.
01:22 And then we'll throw it open to the audience.
01:24 Anything you want to ask him, okay?
01:26 So, let's get going, Marshall.
01:28 First one is, you make a distinction
01:30 about being a leader and a follower.
01:33 - Yes.
01:33 - And as you go through the day,
01:34 you say, look, you lose energy.
01:36 Sometimes you're a follower.
01:37 Sometimes you're a leader, et cetera.
01:38 - Yes.
01:39 - This is a bunch of leaders in this room.
01:41 Can you explain to them the difference
01:42 between being a good leader and a good follower?
01:45 - Well, you know, one of my deepest learnings
01:48 over the past two years is,
01:51 we all need help and it's okay.
01:54 We all need help and it's okay.
01:57 For example, I work with a group of people today.
02:00 And one gentleman said, well, you know,
02:02 I haven't had this problem I've had for 20 years.
02:05 I said, raise your right hand and repeat after me.
02:08 My name is Joe.
02:09 I've had this problem for 20 years.
02:12 I'm not gonna fix it by myself in the future.
02:14 I need help and it's okay.
02:16 So, I think it's very healthy for all of us to admit that.
02:21 And we're not gonna be a leader at everything.
02:23 For example, I pay a woman to call me on the phone every day.
02:25 She called me this morning.
02:27 Every day she listens to me read questions I wrote
02:30 and provide answers I wrote every day.
02:32 Why do I do this?
02:33 My name is Marshall Goldsmith.
02:35 I get ranked number one executive coach in the world.
02:37 I'm too cowardly to do this by myself and too undisciplined.
02:41 I need help and it's okay.
02:43 So, I think once we get over this silly macho,
02:45 I have to be a leader at everything nonsense,
02:48 life is better for all of us.
02:50 How about you?
02:51 Do you need a little help?
02:52 (laughing)
02:54 We all need help.
02:55 - Yes, all of us need help as I said.
02:57 But just explain to the group--
02:59 - Uh oh, uh oh, but.
03:00 You didn't say but, did you?
03:01 That's in my book.
03:02 - I was just gonna come to that question.
03:03 - Never started sentence with but.
03:04 - We'll come to that question.
03:06 That's question number four.
03:08 But help the group understand.
03:10 - Uh oh, uh oh, uh oh.
03:11 That's twice now.
03:12 I charge my clients--
03:13 - $20.
03:14 - $20.
03:16 What's your favorite charity?
03:17 - What's my favorite charity?
03:19 We'll give it a outlook, don't worry.
03:20 They'll have something.
03:21 - Well, whatever it is, you owe them $40.
03:24 - $40, we'll give it to them.
03:25 - Okay.
03:26 - What are the traits of a good follower?
03:28 Maybe that's something that leadership needs to understand.
03:30 What are they in your mind?
03:32 - The traits of a good follower?
03:34 - Yeah.
03:34 - The traits of a good follower are you trying
03:36 to make a positive difference,
03:37 not to prove you're smart, not to prove you're right.
03:39 Peter Drucker taught me this lesson.
03:41 Our mission in life is to make a positive difference.
03:45 Our mission in life is not to prove how smart we are.
03:48 Our mission in life is not to prove how right we are.
03:51 We're here to make a positive difference.
03:53 Peter Drucker also taught me this.
03:55 Ultimately, every decision is made by the person
03:58 who has the power to make the decision.
03:59 Make peace with that, not the smartest person
04:01 or the best person or the fair person.
04:03 And if I am a follower and I need to influence you
04:06 to make a positive difference,
04:08 then one word to describe me, salesperson.
04:11 I gotta sell.
04:12 One word to describe you, customer.
04:14 You have to buy.
04:15 And we need to learn to sell what we can sell,
04:17 change what we can change,
04:18 and if you can't sell and can't change it, let it go.
04:22 - So not many people know that you're one of the pioneers
04:26 of the 360 degree feedback.
04:27 - Yes.
04:28 - You're one of the early adopters of that.
04:29 - I am a pioneer.
04:31 - Okay, can you explain--
04:33 - By the way, in life, it's not always good
04:34 when people constantly refer to you as a pioneer.
04:38 Pioneer is code for old.
04:40 Then they give you the lifetime achievement award.
04:42 That means, looks like he's about to die.
04:45 (laughing)
04:47 - So how should a leader, a good leader,
04:50 take the concept of a 360 degree feedback?
04:53 What are the positives?
04:54 How does he read it?
04:56 - Well, here's what I teach people.
04:58 You learn to ask for confidential feedback.
05:01 You get this confidential feedback,
05:03 you pick important behavior to improve.
05:05 You pick, you have to own it.
05:06 It has to come from your heart.
05:08 Then you talk to people in a way that sounds like this.
05:10 I'd say, "Mr. Coworker,
05:11 "we're going through the feedback process.
05:13 "I want to say thank you to everybody who participated.
05:15 "Thank you so much.
05:17 "I don't have anything to lose and much to gain."
05:19 Then I'd say, "You know, here's the positives.
05:22 "Take the time to acknowledge the positives
05:24 "and express gratitude.
05:25 "Then, don't ask for more feedback about the past.
05:28 "Ask for ideas for the future."
05:30 I'd say, "I'm not gonna ask you
05:31 "for more feedback about the past.
05:32 "Give me ideas for the future.
05:34 "For example, I want to be a better listener.
05:36 "Give me ideas to help me."
05:37 Then whatever the person says,
05:38 sit there, shut up, listen, take notes,
05:40 and say, "Thank you.
05:41 "Don't judge and critique."
05:43 Never promise to do everything people say.
05:45 Leadership's not a popularity contest.
05:47 I'd say, "I can't promise to do everything
05:49 "you and everyone say.
05:50 "I'm gonna listen to everybody,
05:51 "think of the ideas, and follow up with you,
05:53 "and do what I can."
05:54 And then on a regular basis, it's called feed forward.
05:57 You do it over and over and over.
05:59 In our research, we have research
06:00 that was published from 86,000 people.
06:03 Leaders that do this get better.
06:05 In my own coaching, I don't get paid
06:07 if my clients don't get better.
06:08 This works.
06:09 It doesn't kind of work or sort of work
06:11 or only work in this country or that country.
06:12 It always works.
06:13 And by the way, some of the best scores
06:15 in the world are in India.
06:16 It works great here.
06:17 - Okay, great to hear that.
06:20 Okay, one of the things you've said,
06:23 again, about leaders or successful people
06:26 is that they're superior planners,
06:29 but inferior doers.
06:30 - Yes.
06:31 - You know, you made that comment,
06:32 and that's a thing a lot of us struggle with,
06:35 which is, in another word, execution.
06:37 So why do you believe that we are superior planners,
06:40 but inferior doers?
06:41 - Well, in my book, Triggers,
06:42 I talk about a bunch of reasons,
06:44 but let me give you the biggest one, my favorite.
06:47 I call it the dream.
06:49 Years ago, my biggest client was Johnson & Johnson.
06:53 You know Johnson & Johnson.
06:54 Had the privilege of working with their CEO
06:56 all the way down to person 2000.
06:58 They all went to my class.
06:59 I ask them all the same thing.
07:00 Pick something to improve.
07:01 Talk to people, follow up, measure improvement.
07:04 And they're in my big study that I talked about.
07:08 98% of their leaders said,
07:09 yes, I'm gonna do what Marshall said, 98%.
07:12 A year later, 70% done something, 30% was zero,
07:16 not one minute.
07:17 And I'm not ashamed of these numbers.
07:19 Hey, 70% of 2000 people is 1,400 people
07:22 getting evaluated by 10 coworkers each.
07:25 14,000 people have a little better life,
07:27 and I'm proud of that.
07:28 I got to interview the people that did nothing,
07:30 and I asked them a question.
07:31 Why did you do nothing?
07:33 Now I'm gonna test the group here.
07:35 The answer had to do with a dream.
07:37 This is a dream I've had for years.
07:39 I'm gonna predict half the room has had this dream
07:41 on a regular basis.
07:42 The dream sounds like this.
07:44 You know I'm incredibly busy right now.
07:46 Given pressures of work and home and new technology
07:50 that follows me everywhere,
07:52 I feel about as busy as I ever have been.
07:54 Sometimes I feel overcommitted.
07:57 I do not tell others this, but every now and again,
07:59 my life feels a little bit out of control.
08:02 You know I'm working on some very unique
08:04 and special challenges though right now,
08:07 and I think the worst of this is gonna be over
08:11 in about three or four months,
08:12 and after that I'm gonna take two or three weeks
08:15 and get organized,
08:16 and I'm gonna begin my new healthy life program,
08:20 and after that everything is going to be different,
08:24 and it will not be crazy anymore.
08:27 How many people in the room have ever had a dream
08:30 that resembles that dream?
08:32 Raise your hand.
08:33 (laughing)
08:36 How many years have we been having the same dream?
08:38 Sanity's not gonna prevail.
08:42 The pace of change we are experiencing today
08:45 is the slowest it will ever be for the rest of your life.
08:49 The pace of change is the slowest it's gonna be
08:52 for the rest of your life.
08:54 The reason people don't do what I teach
08:56 is not they're mean or bad or stupid.
08:59 We are so bombarded with stuff,
09:01 it's hard to keep anything in our heads.
09:03 - Okay, going back to the 20 dialogue fight you had on me,
09:09 you say specifically two words leaders should never use,
09:13 however positive their comments,
09:16 using the word no, but, however.
09:19 - Right.
09:20 - Okay, there's an instinctive tendency
09:22 that those words will invariably be used
09:24 to prove people wrong.
09:25 - Exactly.
09:26 - So what's the basis of why you say this?
09:28 - Well first the word but is a discounter.
09:32 If you give a person positive recognition,
09:35 you say that's great, but it discounts all the great.
09:38 It eliminates it.
09:40 And the most common phrase uttered by smart people
09:42 when people tell us something we agree with
09:44 is no, I agree with you.
09:46 No, what's that mean?
09:47 No, I agree with you.
09:48 No, it's fantastic.
09:49 No, I think it's great.
09:51 What that no means is no, of course I agree with you
09:53 and I already understand what you're saying.
09:55 You don't have to talk to me,
09:56 I already know everything very, very hard.
09:59 So I would say get in the discipline
10:02 of don't start sentences with no, but, or however
10:05 because that immediately establishes
10:06 a negative interaction with the other person.
10:09 Let me get one for the audience.
10:10 How many of you have children?
10:12 Okay.
10:14 Kid comes home from school with a report card.
10:17 In America the highest grade's A, second is B.
10:21 Five A's and a B.
10:22 Mommy, daddy, look at my report card.
10:26 Five A's and one B.
10:29 If you're not careful, what do you say, mommy and daddy?
10:32 That's great, but.
10:33 Why did he get a B?
10:34 Why didn't you get an A every time?
10:36 You know what the kid is thinking?
10:38 That's great, but why do I have an ass like you
10:42 for a father?
10:43 (audience laughing)
10:46 That's the background truth.
10:52 Yeah, if we say that's great, but enough to people we love,
10:55 you know, we teach 'em there is no great.
10:57 There is no great.
10:57 All there is is but.
10:58 - You're writing a new book, and this is a topic
11:03 of big discussion right now in corporate circles, diversity.
11:07 And your new book due to release in April of 2018
11:11 is How Women Rise and the 12 Habits
11:14 Which Inhibit Them from Rising.
11:17 I have two questions.
11:18 One, talk to us about those 12 habits,
11:20 and more important, how women rise,
11:23 how is it different from how men rise?
11:26 - Well, we talk about, I wrote,
11:28 let me give you the history of the book first.
11:30 I wrote my book What Got You Here Won't Get You There.
11:33 Then my co-author Sally Helgeson is an expert
11:37 on women in leadership.
11:38 This guy Mike Dulworth, who we really don't know that well,
11:41 sends us an email, says crazy idea.
11:43 Why don't you take the concept behind
11:45 what got you here won't get you there,
11:46 only apply specifically to issues
11:48 that are more related to women.
11:50 So I called Sally and said, what do you think?
11:52 She said, let's do it.
11:53 That's what led to the book.
11:54 It's a lot of just random chance, right?
11:56 We didn't plan it.
11:57 And we find, let me give you some of the issues
12:00 that come up, ready?
12:02 One of them is perfectionism.
12:04 Women tend to be much more perfectionistic than men,
12:08 and that then impacts other things.
12:09 For example, women are much more likely
12:12 to sacrifice their career for their job.
12:15 Now, what that means is,
12:18 you're doing a job at like 95% quality.
12:21 Yeah, pretty good.
12:22 It's gonna be a huge effort to get to 99%.
12:25 As opposed to putting in all that other effort
12:29 on the extra 4%, take that, invest in your future,
12:33 in your future career.
12:34 Women tend to be too hard on themselves.
12:37 The average woman gets better 360 feedback
12:39 than the average man.
12:40 The average woman has one issue
12:41 to deal with much more than that,
12:43 being a perfect everything to everyone,
12:45 and women are much more self-critical.
12:46 One coaching I have for women for years,
12:48 far more than men, is please don't be too hard on yourself.
12:51 Women in India, they get a little bonus treat.
12:54 See, women in India, not only do they get
12:56 to be the perfect wife, and the perfect mother,
12:59 and the perfect daughter, and the perfect boss,
13:02 and the perfect everything,
13:03 they get to be the perfect daughter-in-law as well.
13:07 Oh, yeah.
13:08 And for you women in the room, let's face it,
13:10 you're really not good enough
13:12 for the little prince that she raised.
13:14 This is a little bonus guilt
13:17 that Indian women get much more than men.
13:20 By the way, that's very culturally different.
13:22 In America, the mother is more likely to side with the wife.
13:27 Like when I got married, you know what my mother
13:29 told my wife?
13:30 My mother said, "I failed, now it's your turn."
13:34 (audience laughing)
13:37 My mother also said, "If it doesn't work out,
13:41 "I won't blame you."
13:42 (laughing)
13:45 - How do the same rules apply for men?
13:48 - Different.
13:49 Let me give you an example.
13:51 This really will illustrate my point.
13:53 I did a program last night for women here in Mumbai,
13:57 maybe 60, 70 women there.
13:59 I start the program by saying we're gonna have four rules.
14:03 Rule one, you cannot attempt to learn something.
14:06 All of a sudden, they start getting a little uneasy.
14:11 Rule two, you can't try to be more productive.
14:16 Rule three, you cannot even consider being a better person.
14:21 And rule four, the hard one,
14:23 you cannot even think about helping others.
14:26 Now, by now, most of the women are very uncomfortable.
14:31 Then I say, for 10 minutes, you're gonna focus
14:33 on one thing, your own happiness and self-acceptance.
14:36 Just 10 minutes.
14:39 Half the women in the room have tears in their eyes.
14:42 Half.
14:44 Now, imagine a group of men.
14:46 When I say men, now, boys, no matter how difficult
14:50 it may be, men, for the next 10 minutes,
14:52 you must focus only on your own happiness.
14:55 How many men have tears in their eyes?
14:57 You're thinking, let's spend all day on that topic.
14:59 Well, it's not that women are better or worse
15:03 or men are better or worse.
15:05 For most men, this is not our problem.
15:07 - Okay, good.
15:09 I want to take a quote from somebody who's worked with you
15:12 and benefited, which is Alan Mullally of Ford.
15:16 He said something interesting which struck me.
15:18 He said, "We took two areas after interaction
15:22 "with Marshall, and as a team,
15:24 "we improved dramatically in that."
15:26 So how does an individual improve compared to a team?
15:30 And what are the dynamics of team improvement?
15:32 - Well, the first thing is, the fact that I was
15:35 Alan Mullally's, quote, "Coach," is kind of a joke.
15:39 I learned 10 times from him whatever tiny bit
15:43 he learned from me.
15:45 So I want to be very clear on that, right?
15:47 I mean, I'm certainly not pompous enough to think
15:50 that I'm teaching him more than he's teaching me.
15:53 I mean, I'm very blessed.
15:55 When you work with people like Alan Mullally
15:57 and Francis Hesselbein and Jim Kim, people like this,
15:59 they don't learn that much from me.
16:03 I learn from them.
16:04 Alan basically taught me a wonderful lesson.
16:08 My whole job is picking great customers.
16:10 With Alan, I could have spent one hour coaching him.
16:13 He figured it out.
16:17 He's a brilliant engineer.
16:18 He said, "This, this, this, this, this, this, this, this."
16:21 I said, "You got it."
16:22 He said, "Is there anything else?"
16:24 "Nope, that's about it."
16:26 He said, "I think I can do it."
16:27 He said, "I built an airplane, I can do this."
16:30 Well, he starts getting incredibly better.
16:33 Then, Alan and I talk.
16:35 I said, "Well, I feel like I should be doing something.
16:36 "I'm getting paid a lot of money.
16:38 "You're gonna get better and I'm gonna get paid."
16:41 He said, "Why don't we have the whole team get better?"
16:43 Guess what?
16:44 He did.
16:45 Probably 200 people got better when I coached him.
16:50 Not because I am a better coach.
16:53 He was better.
16:54 See, I've learned.
16:55 My key to success is not me.
16:57 It's working with wonderful people like him.
17:00 Alan told me one thing.
17:01 Your whole job is customer selection.
17:03 You pick the right customers, you're always a winner.
17:06 You pick the wrong customer, you're never a winner.
17:08 Well, I'm blessed.
17:10 I may or may not be the best coach in the world,
17:12 but I can tell you, I got the best clients.
17:14 I have the best clients, and that's what matters.
17:16 The biggest problem with all the coaches that I've trained,
17:20 including myself, is the ego of the coach.
17:23 You see, we want people to get better
17:26 so we can look in that mirror and feel good about ourselves.
17:30 Yeah, look how much better they got
17:32 because of me, me, me, me, me.
17:35 It's hard to get over that.
17:36 Very hard to get over that.
17:38 - So would you say that's the single biggest blind spot
17:40 of a leader having a coach, which is that ego?
17:44 - Ego, ego is tough.
17:46 Ego is tough, and it's hard for any of us to get over ego.
17:49 The other difference is, you see,
17:51 for the great achiever, it's all about me.
17:54 And everyone in this room is a great achiever.
17:56 They probably did well in school.
17:57 They took test after test after test.
17:59 You have to prove yourself over and over
18:01 and over and over again.
18:03 Then as you move into leadership,
18:05 you have to change.
18:06 Leadership is about them.
18:08 You have to quit being the expert.
18:09 You have to quit being the star.
18:10 You have to quit making it about me, me, me
18:13 and create a world where they're heroes,
18:15 where they're the stars.
18:16 There's a big difference between being a great achiever
18:18 and a great leader.
18:19 The great achiever is about me.
18:21 The great leader, it's about them.
18:23 It's hard transition, very hard transition.
18:27 And one other thing I'd say for a great coach,
18:29 it's about them.
18:31 It's not about me.
18:32 It's about them.
18:34 - In that sense, you have a six step or six questions
18:37 that you go through in coaching.
18:39 One of the questions was very interesting to me.
18:41 You said, if you're your own coach,
18:44 what would you advise yourself?
18:46 Now, we agree that ego is the biggest problem
18:49 that leaders have.
18:50 So how would a person with that blind spot
18:53 be a good coach to himself
18:54 or rationalize the thinking around it?
18:56 - Well, what I say in the six question coaching process
18:59 is that's one of the questions.
19:02 In many cases, you just get people thinking.
19:05 And then they think, well, yeah,
19:06 there is probably something I can do better.
19:09 My friend, by the way, that coaching process,
19:11 I've used that to work with seven CEOs.
19:15 I got paid seven times out of seven, always works.
19:18 And I can mention their names too,
19:19 because I'm very different.
19:21 I can talk about my clients.
19:22 Jim Morton, CEO of John Hancock,
19:23 went from an 8th percentile to a 98 in four years.
19:27 That's all he did, this process.
19:28 A wonderful process.
19:30 And by the way, it's online and it's free.
19:31 As you know, I give everything away anyway.
19:33 So you can use all my stuff for free.
19:35 George Borst was shocked at Toyota Financial Services.
19:38 He said, he thought people would say fluff to that question.
19:42 If you were the coach, he thought they'd say,
19:45 I just work too hard or nonsense.
19:47 He was shocked.
19:48 He said he was amazed at the level of depth people said.
19:51 And he said half the time, you know what he ended up saying?
19:53 Let's do what you want.
19:55 You see the way it's structured as a leader,
19:57 you still have responsibility for leading that process.
20:00 So if the person says nonsense,
20:02 you don't have to deal with it.
20:03 On the other hand, giving them the opportunity.
20:06 Now he didn't say he always agreed with them.
20:08 He said half the time, what did he say though?
20:10 Let's go with yours.
20:11 - Good, that's great.
20:14 Those are my six questions.
20:15 I have a lot more.
20:16 But I'd rather open it up to the audience
20:18 because I think they would like to ask you some things.
20:21 Any questions from the audience, please?
20:23 (audience member speaking faintly)
20:27 Anyone, we might have time for three, four questions.
20:33 Please make use of your, yes, please, go ahead.
20:35 - Okay, can we hear?
20:38 Oh, there you go.
20:39 - There's a mic going there, yeah.
20:41 - Hey, Marshall.
20:45 About your 360 degree, right?
20:47 So how relevant is the 360 degree feedback
20:51 when it comes from diverse group of people?
20:53 What to take and what not to take?
20:55 - I didn't hear very well.
20:58 - He said how valuable is the 360 degree feedback
21:01 when it comes from a diverse set of people
21:03 in terms of what to change and what not to change?
21:05 - Oh, I think in general, it's very valuable.
21:07 The thing is, pick one thing that you believe in your heart
21:12 is the most important and just work on that.
21:14 Don't do anything else.
21:15 Just pick one thing that comes from your heart,
21:17 and there's almost always something
21:19 that you'll feel is important.
21:20 And just do that.
21:21 Just get in the habit of doing that.
21:22 The fact that you care, the fact you ask for feedback,
21:26 the fact you try is a huge message, very huge message.
21:30 One thing I'm very proud of is
21:32 27 major CEOs endorsed my book, Triggers.
21:36 Why I'm so proud of that is 30 years ago,
21:37 no CEO would admit to having a coach.
21:40 They would have been ashamed to have a coach,
21:41 embarrassed to have a coach.
21:42 What I'm proud of is now they say,
21:43 it's okay to have a coach.
21:45 It's okay to get feedback.
21:46 It's okay to try to do better.
21:47 Yeah, good, thank you, sir.
21:50 - Yeah, cable?
21:51 Can I get the mic here, please?
21:52 - Can I?
21:55 - Mic, go ahead.
21:56 - Oh, here's the mic, okay.
21:57 Please go ahead.
21:58 - You and this one, yes.
22:00 - Hi, I'm right here, right here, right at the back.
22:03 As a coach, did you think storytelling
22:09 is the most effective way for people to understand?
22:12 - Can you give me 20 seconds?
22:14 - As a coach.
22:15 - Is storytelling the most effective way
22:17 for people to understand?
22:18 - Not particularly.
22:20 Okay, next.
22:21 (laughing)
22:23 - Go ahead.
22:24 (laughing)
22:27 - Nothing wrong with it, but you know.
22:28 (laughing)
22:31 - Why should you coach my CEO, global CEO?
22:33 - Which one?
22:34 - Ian, yeah, Ian Reed.
22:36 - Yes.
22:37 - You did, okay, thanks.
22:38 You know, if you're coaching,
22:41 what are you looking changes in that person?
22:43 Is it the attitude, the behavior,
22:46 or is it the attitude of the person?
22:48 Or the way he's going to think in the future?
22:50 What are the changes you're looking at?
22:52 How do you measure those changes?
22:53 - Oh, very simple, I can answer that.
22:56 My focus is strictly on behavioral change.
22:58 I'm not an expert on strategy,
22:59 I'm not an expert on the business part of the business.
23:01 So here's the way I coach people.
23:02 Let's imagine I'm coaching you.
23:04 He's the future CEO.
23:06 Let's pretend, I either coach the CEO or the future CEO.
23:09 I got a call from one company, it's funny.
23:12 They said, "We want you to coach
23:13 "this young, second-line supervisor.
23:15 "We love this guy."
23:17 I said, "Well, that's interesting."
23:19 And they said, "Have you coached
23:20 "any young guys like this recently?"
23:21 I said, "Not for many years."
23:23 They said, "We love the guy, we want you to coach him."
23:25 I said, "Here's how much it costs."
23:26 You know what they said?
23:27 "Love is a strong word."
23:29 (laughing)
23:31 We just like him.
23:32 Now, here's the way I coach people.
23:34 Just sounds like this.
23:36 You and the CEO agree on who are your key stakeholders.
23:39 He's a future CEO.
23:40 Then, we get feedback.
23:42 I interview every one of these people.
23:45 You get confidential feedback,
23:47 which is hard, by the way.
23:48 He gets confidential feedback.
23:50 He and the CEO agree, yes, these are the right stakeholders.
23:54 He and the CEO agree, these are the right people,
23:57 and these are the right behaviors.
23:59 Then, my contract is pretty simple.
24:01 He achieves positive long-term change
24:02 in the behavior they agree upon
24:04 as judged by the people they agree upon,
24:07 and that's how I get paid.
24:08 So, I look at the CEO and say,
24:09 "Look, if this guy gets better at this stuff
24:11 "as judged by these people over this time period,
24:13 "is it worth this money, yes or no?"
24:14 The answer is, "No, don't hire me."
24:16 The answer is, "Yes, you can't lose.
24:18 "He gets better at paying me.
24:19 "He doesn't get better, it's all free."
24:20 That's what I do.
24:21 - You wanted to know about your CEO?
24:26 (audience laughing)
24:28 - Which one was the CEO?
24:29 - His CEO.
24:30 - Oh, his CEO.
24:31 - Yeah.
24:32 - Did I coach his CEO?
24:33 - His, that's what I'm asking you.
24:35 You coached his CEO.
24:35 - Ian Reed.
24:36 - Which one?
24:37 - Ian Reed.
24:38 - Ian Reed of Pfizer.
24:39 - Oh, Ian Reed, yeah, oh yeah, I'm Ian's coach, yes.
24:40 Ian Reed.
24:41 Yeah, Ian Reed got better, and I got paid, yeah.
24:43 (audience laughing)
24:44 Do you still work for Pfizer?
24:46 - No, I think it's not.
24:47 - Not anymore.
24:48 No, Ian is a good client.
24:49 So yeah, I was Ian Reed's coach.
24:51 And what's great about Ian, or a guy like Ian,
24:54 two points about coaching someone like Ian Reed.
24:57 Pfizer's a $250 billion market cap company.
25:00 The only cost of Ian Reed hiring me is his time.
25:04 Do you know Ian at all?
25:05 Does Ian like to have his time wasted?
25:08 Does that put him in a good mood or a bad mood?
25:10 Bad, how bad, how bad?
25:12 You know, if you know Ian.
25:14 Does he like having his time wasted?
25:16 No, how about wasting Ian's time?
25:18 Is that a good plan or a bad plan?
25:20 That is a phenomenally bad idea.
25:22 He doesn't want his time wasted.
25:24 The reason he gets along with me is I don't waste time.
25:28 I don't get paid based on spending time.
25:29 The only cost of Ian Reed hiring me is the time of Ian Reed.
25:33 Whatever he pays me relative to the value of his time,
25:37 paper clips, paper clips.
25:39 So working with him, one thing is I'm very time sensitive.
25:42 Number two, Ian Reed, I worked with Ian
25:46 for a year and a half.
25:48 He got better.
25:49 I said to Ian, I don't need to work with you anymore.
25:50 You got better.
25:51 He said, I still wanna have a coach.
25:53 I said, why?
25:54 He said, I'm asking everybody else to get better.
25:56 I wanna look in the mirror and say, look,
25:59 I got a coach and I'm trying to get better.
26:00 And I'm not asking you to do something
26:02 I'm not doing myself.
26:03 So for him, God bless him for that.
26:06 That to me is more important even than what he improved.
26:09 Make sense?
26:11 - Last question, please, yeah.
26:13 - First of all, love your work.
26:16 I still, there is one insight which you said
26:18 in one of your videos which has stayed with me,
26:22 which is you said that very successful people
26:25 are often superstitious.
26:27 And that was a big aha and then I started observing
26:29 and it's an amazing insight.
26:31 My question to you is, you talk about
26:34 stakeholder-centered coaching.
26:38 And my question is that, just like the example
26:40 you gave right now, that a CEO brings you in
26:43 and says, I have a future CEO and I want you to coach him.
26:48 And it may be possible that the future CEO
26:53 has his own ideas of how he wants to shape up.
26:56 The stakeholder might have very clear feedback
26:59 to give to him.
27:00 So if they are not aligned, do you immediately
27:02 drop the coaching or you work on them?
27:07 - Actually, in theory, what you said makes sense.
27:11 In practice, it's never happened.
27:13 It's never that big of a deal.
27:15 I mean, the CEO is the CEO.
27:17 By the way, back to Ian Reid.
27:19 If I'm coaching a future CEO of Pfizer,
27:21 Ian says, I think this person is your key stakeholder.
27:23 Guess what?
27:24 Yeah, they're gonna be part of the list.
27:28 So, I mean, that's the way the world works.
27:30 That's the way the world works.
27:31 So I've never had that be a problem.
27:33 - Good, so thank you, Marshall.
27:37 It's been a wonderful 30 minutes with you, okay?
27:39 - Thank you. - Thank you.
27:40 - Ladies and gentlemen, can we have a huge round of applause
27:42 to Dr. Goldsmith, Mr. Shivakumar.
27:44 Thank you for that terrific interaction.
27:46 We surely found some very practical insights.
27:48 Thank you, sirs.
27:49 (upbeat music)
27:52 (upbeat music)
27:54 (upbeat music)